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Christianity In primary schools.

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Misbegotten cad
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#31

Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:01 AM

I am a devout christian, and believe in Christ with all my heart.

 

Despite this, I think it is wrong to teach children religious ideas and dogmas.

 

You see, if we brainwash a kid into believing in Jesus, he will not be saved by this faith.

 

Because faith that is a result of a brainwash, is not real faith!

 

No, real faith is a result of persons own search and a personal relationship with God. It comes out of free will, and never out of brainwashing.

-out of brainwashing comes only false faith. Which leads unto damnation.

 

Yes, it's okay to tell kids about Jesus and prayer and so on, but it is wrong to force it unto them, like they do in most cathoic schools (for example).

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#32

Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:25 PM

The problem is, at what point does telling become brainwashing? I'm not averse to the idea of teaching children about religion, but I would class some of the statements you've made about your own religious belief as to have crossed this line. Rhetoric around "saving" in particular I see as blackmail because the insinuation even from very general discussion is that one is harmed by not harbouring this belief.

I think that children are mature enough to learn about the structures and basic belief systems of all religions but should be guarded from the rhetoric and hyperbole around salvation and the implicit claims of spiritual and moral superiority that often accompany them until they are old enough to make their own informed choices.
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#33

Posted 15 March 2014 - 01:46 AM Edited by Ziggy455, 15 March 2014 - 01:47 AM.

The problem is, at what point does telling become brainwashing? I'm not averse to the idea of teaching children about religion, but I would class some of the statements you've made about your own religious belief as to have crossed this line. Rhetoric around "saving" in particular I see as blackmail because the insinuation even from very general discussion is that one is harmed by not harbouring this belief.

I think that children are mature enough to learn about the structures and basic belief systems of all religions but should be guarded from the rhetoric and hyperbole around salvation and the implicit claims of spiritual and moral superiority that often accompany them until they are old enough to make their own informed choices.

 

I agree. I believe that there's too many exaggerations and inter-development of children at such a young age where religion is sort of placed onto their shoulders and goes beyond the basic belief system. Like you say, the rhetoric and hyperbole around salvation and the spiritual/moral superiority always feels like it is hardcoded into the children at a young age. It is why religion seems quite abundant in people that have been brought up on it from a young age. 

 

I have a friend who is an extremely devout Christian, very textbook in terms of what you'd consider one to be. They go to church, they abide by laws coded by New and Old Testament. They're very into the entire thing. This friend, of course, was very much like this when he was younger but I guess not to such an extent that he is now. I believe that it's a development phase. Children should be open to religion, but they shouldn't be forced through the misguided, and somewhat deluded view I have seen of some religious people. (Not Christians as a whole, don't mistake me for a bigot here.)

 

In summary, I'm all for religion to be taught to children in schools, even Christianity, but maybe not to the extent that many would agree. We don't need there to be hyperbole and rhetoric forced through a child's belief. We should let them decide for themselves when the time is right. 


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#34

Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:18 PM

I think children need to learn about religion is school and how batsh*t crazy it is. 

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gtamann123
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#35

Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:39 PM Edited by gtamann123, 13 May 2014 - 06:40 PM.

I think children need to learn about religion is school and how batsh*t crazy it is. 

I believe this as well. A large amount of school aged children will and do get brainwashed into blindly following religion at home by their parents. So I think schools should serve as kind of the balancer in order to prevent kids from becoming too brainwashed into thinking their religion is the only one and all others a crap. Schools should teach the histories and practices of other faiths and show children all the similarities between the different religions. Most older people (Born 1970s or earlier) are still pretty religious so its a given that their children will be fairly brainwashed by religion. But since less and less people from that age group are having kids then I think it will eventually become unnecessary. Since the majority of younger people are non-religious or apathetic about the whole thing. And won't brainwash their kids like the older generations did.  

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#36

Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:53 PM

How is teaching children that religion is bad better than teaching them about religion?

 

Some people here need to get their heads out of their asses and understand the fact that their "Religion is the bane of society" attitude is worse than any religious person they'll ever come across ..Probably.

 

Not actually naming names, not really talking about people here in general. I'm talking about people who are more ...Passionate about their hate for it.

 

Also, from the 3 posts I read... The word "Brainwash" on this thread is more overused than "Hyperbole" or whatever on that one site.


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#37

Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:28 PM

So, you've read three posts and you think that gives you enough of a knowledge of the views of the people who have posted in this thread to form a general opinion on it?
I don't want to sound rude, but that's pretty ignorant isn't it?

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#38

Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:48 PM

How is teaching children that religion is bad better than teaching them about religion?

 

Some people here need to get their heads out of their asses and understand the fact that their "Religion is the bane of society" attitude is worse than any religious person they'll ever come across ..Probably.

 

Not actually naming names, not really talking about people here in general. I'm talking about people who are more ...Passionate about their hate for it.

 

Also, from the 3 posts I read... The word "Brainwash" on this thread is more overused than "Hyperbole" or whatever on that one site.

I didn't necessarily say "Schools should teach that religion is bad" I tried to say "Schools should educate students on different types of religions" Because a large amount of children who grow up in Christian households are taught at a young age that all non Christian religions are bad. This pretty much already happens in schools where religion and religious studies are offered as elective courses. I would just like to see the trend continue. 


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#39

Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:14 AM

I think kids should be taught somewhere about different religions, maybe not in a school during a legit curriculum though.


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#40

Posted 20 July 2014 - 04:39 PM

I went to a private school, where adventism was in focus. Though we were taught about all religions, there were some subtle hints to why "christianity is the one true reiligion" and som less subtle ones. When we were taught about darwinism and evolution, for instance, one of the questions read: "Explain points an atheist might use to 'prove' evolution, and then debunk them". We were taught about say, the second law of thermodynamics, but only so we could use it to counter scientifically ground points. At the time, I was a devout christian. As soon as I left the school (to start studying music) I lost my faith, as one might say.

I think it's unethical to teach that christianity (or any other religion) is true in any school


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#41

Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:47 PM

In here, it's a primary subject that you have a grade for. I'm no longer a believer and i should have the right to quit it.
Religious teachings should no longer be allowed in educational establishments, it's something personal, it shouldn't be forced at people.

Amen. (oh, the irony)


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#42

Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:09 PM

I'm a firm believer in the principle that religion of any kind has no place in the running of society or social amenities. That includes education establishments. The same way I dislike the idea that the diocesan archbishops and bishops have a role the House of Lords, I dislike the principle of religious involvement in state education. The French model of enforcing secularism in all public institutions is something I'm a supporter of.

Could not have put it any better myself.


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#43

Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:13 AM

Teaching Christianity in a school devoted to that religion, in which they teach life lessons/words of god? Sure. 

 

Making it compulsory for all years and forcing the student to succeed in the subject in order to graduate from high school? No. 


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#44

Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:00 PM Edited by Secura, 31 July 2014 - 01:30 AM.

I don't understand why Catholic schooling is still so popular, when the idea of a transition to a more secular-based educational system is far more beneficial and less likely to segregate those of different or no faith. I do think that religious education is an important part of schooling, in the sense that the more you know about a person's personal beliefs the less likely you are to offend them by doing something they might view as offensive and/or ignorant, though it should be taught from a secular, neutral standpoint, and not one that's clearly biased or inclined to dismiss or indirectly berate certain beliefs that conflict with that of the school's or educator's own.

 

I must however, strongly disagree with the idea of having sections of the curriculum and student's time at school being wasted with singing, chanting or humming religious hymns, this encourages segregation at a very base level, even with the option to sit-out of such things potentially instilled, it doesn't distill the simple fact that you're separating certain students from each other by encouraging the archaic practice of praying to a deity who's existence they either doubt, deny or simply believe is wrong. To many people, what they believe is exceedingly personal, and although I as an atheist do not have any issues notifying people who inquire about such things, others do, and to force someone to openly opt-out of a "lesson" exposes their religious beliefs, or lack thereof to all of their classmates, which can only be a bad thing. 


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#45

Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:11 PM Edited by Vercetti42, 30 July 2014 - 12:11 PM.

It should but it should only be optional. It shouldn't be forced upon the student. If a student feels the need to learn more about religion then he is free to do so. It's like a special class but it should not be a main subject. 

 

I think children need to learn about religion is school and how batsh*t crazy it is. 

 

I'm aware that this post is slightly old but I am inclined to agree with this. Again this should not be forced upon the student but the teachers should also warn students not to become brainwashed by religious sentiments. (Note: This does NOT mean asking the student to not believe in God).

 

Despite the fact that I believe in God, I personally find religion to be a very dull subject. I'm not even the biggest religious fanatic, I just believe in God and that is that. It's a free world, you are free to believe in whatever you want but don't force it on others and don't attach yourself too much to it. Too much of a thing is never a good thing.


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#46

Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:27 PM

Religion has no place in schools, unless you attend a specific faith-school.


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#47

Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:12 PM Edited by igotskiz, 01 August 2014 - 07:22 PM.

Religion has no place in schools outside of clubs or student-led-and-organized functions. Students should not receive any sort of academic credit for exploring parts of their personal lives and beliefs. Students have churches (or an equivalent) and their home for those kinds of studies.

 

As for trying to taking it out and going to an extreme of where it can't be mentioned or expressed is also absurd. Students and teachers (teachers to a lesser extent for semi-obvious reasons) should be able to express their religion as long as they're not advertising it or using social pressure to coax others into uncomfortable situations.

 

The problem is, at what point does telling become brainwashing? 

 

When someone (children specifically) says they don't want to go to <insert religious function / building here>, and they are either told by an authority figure that they don't have a choice or they are disillusioned into thinking they have an option, but are heavily pressured by said authority figure and peers into going and may face heavy social stigma from choosing not to participate.

 

_________

 

Slightly off-topic, I also don't want religion being taught in school due to the stigma that any religion may get as a result. Atheism, for an example:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=90PWFEeRApA

 

This may clearly be propaganda, but it brings up a good point. It would end up being taught favorably in one or another religion's name. Also, in an instructors failure to maintain a mediator's standpoint they may influence how a religion looks, either subliminally bashing it or making it look good.


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#48

Posted 25 November 2014 - 06:45 PM

I think Religion is extremely usefull for girls. That's not bad because that helps the society keep hierarchy in homes. Husband at the head and wife is helper. Also traditional culture makes men be more "serious" than without it. Girls under religious lifestyle keep their virginity. There is no sexual provocation. It is not so radical like it looks. 


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#49

Posted 25 November 2014 - 07:14 PM

I think Religion is extremely usefull for girls. That's not bad because that helps the society keep hierarchy in homes. Husband at the head and wife is helper. Also traditional culture makes men be more "serious" than without it. Girls under religious lifestyle keep their virginity. There is no sexual provocation. It is not so radical like it looks. 

Isn't the freedom to do what one wants with their life a lot more extremely useful than abiding to the hierarchy code of an extremely old book, whose truthfulness still hasn't been proved, and probably never will?

 

On the subject of the thread, I'm in favor of teaching people about religions, but only from a strictly unbiased viewpoint. This means strictly no preaching of the supposedly holy texts. Having a non-religiously affiliated teacher helps, but it may not be necessary if a religious teacher is able to, if not keep his faith out of the classroom, then at least not grant it any special treatment, so to speak. Essentially, treat every faith as merely one of the many, whether the teacher follows one of them or not. Students should also be encouraged to question anything that is presented as a fact without sufficient evidence... but then I suppose, that's already (hopefully) reality in most schools.

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#50

Posted 23 March 2015 - 03:11 AM

yes they should because 1 thats what they tought back when school started. second people are straying from god and need to learn now more than ever. and i remember i did a report about god in school i got an f and wasent even allowed to say it in speech speech class. i got in trouble for talking about god in school aswell. we dont need advanced math chemistry science or all that other crap. we need the bible in school that should be the textbook. now im not saying turn school into a church because i personally dont like church i just read my bible and pray. god bless you all even if your athiests.

 

People like you are a real problem. Why shouldn't Islam or Buddhism be taught in schools instead? Oh that's right because you happened to have been raised in a christian environment. You don't want Islam being taught to you or your future children so why in the hell would you think someone who doesn't hold christian beliefs want christianity taught to them or their kin?

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#51

Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:42 AM

 

 

 

People like you are a real problem. Why shouldn't Islam or Buddhism be taught in schools instead? Oh that's right because you happened to have been raised in a christian environment. You don't want Islam being taught to you or your future children so why in the hell would you think someone who doesn't hold christian beliefs want christianity taught to them or their kin?

 

lol first dude calm down. and also this country is mainly christian which means if any type of religion should be in school it should be christianity. another thing is that islam promotes violence and hate toward people who disagree with them. obviously school wont do that. and buddhism? well i dont know much about that but they worship a statue thats blasphemus. and of course they arent gonna teach christianity with how pro athiest the school system is. although im sure the schools in dearborn michigan teach islam.


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#52

Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:57 AM

 

 

 

 

People like you are a real problem. Why shouldn't Islam or Buddhism be taught in schools instead? Oh that's right because you happened to have been raised in a christian environment. You don't want Islam being taught to you or your future children so why in the hell would you think someone who doesn't hold christian beliefs want christianity taught to them or their kin?

 

lol first dude calm down. and also this country is mainly christian which means if any type of religion should be in school it should be christianity. another thing is that islam promotes violence and hate toward people who disagree with them. obviously school wont do that. and buddhism? well i dont know much about that but they worship a statue thats blasphemus. and of course they arent gonna teach christianity with how pro athiest the school system is. although im sure the schools in dearborn michigan teach islam.

 

You are truly a case of idiocy. This country (the USA) was founded on secular principles. On violence, your bible promotes violence, rape, misogyny, and genocide. By your logic schools wouldn't do that either. And worshiping a statue is not blasphemous unless you're assuming it is based on a personal religion, which Buddhists aren't. On to your misguided view that schools are pro atheist, that's simply not true. Schools are secular. Secular means they don't speak for or against any religious beliefs. Your idea that "the majority holds this belief therefore it should be pushed on everyone" is blatantly stupid and ignorant. Now before you ask I will list examples of misogyny (sexism towards women), rape and genocide as they are found in your bible below.

 

Exodus 20:17- Misogyny

 

Exodus 21:4- Misogyny

 

Exodus 19:1-8- rape

 

Numbers 31:17-8- Genocide/violence

 

Deuteronomy 20:13-4- Genocide/violence

 

Those are just a few of many instances in which your bible promotes misogyny, genocide, and violence on the orders of your so holy and perfect god.

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#53

Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:34 AM

dude first i have to ask you not to insult me like that. and second i never claimed we were perfect. and im sure there was plenty of crap going on back then crap is happening now. and even sometimes i wonder about all these things athiests think. but at the end of the day i realise that i dont have the answers and neither do you or any of us on this crazy earth. but i reckon believing in god makes more sense than the stupid big bang theory bs. come on man we had to come from something. we did not just come from some stupid explosion. our god makes the most sense to me. you can call me a fool but at least it makes the most sense.


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#54

Posted 28 March 2015 - 09:28 AM

but i reckon believing in god makes more sense than the stupid big bang theory bs.

They're not really mutually exclusive. This suggests to me that you probably don't understand it rather and are therefore in no position to determine whether or not it makes "sense". You're not alone here, though it's worth noting that more and more religious believers are accepting it as the most viable theory explaining the method for the creation of the universe.
 

come on man we had to come from something.

The Big Bang stipulates that we have indeed come from "something". The Big Bang is believed to have originated from a point of gravitational singularity. The products of it which became the universe must have existed before the big bang in some form of another but we know not where or how, given that a point of gravitational singularity wouldn't be subject to the laws of general relativity or known physics in general.
 

we did not just come from some stupid explosion.

Why is that statistically less likely than it being the work of a divine creator; an entity in a universe where everything must have a cause which conveniently lacks a cause?


As for the question of US schools and secularism, nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, in the US you have a movement that in several places has successfully passed legislation forcing science teachers to teach creationism as a viable and scientifically valid alternative theory to evolution. The US school system is massively prone to political and religious interference.
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#55

Posted 28 March 2015 - 07:22 PM

dude first i have to ask you not to insult me like that. and second i never claimed we were perfect. and im sure there was plenty of crap going on back then crap is happening now. and even sometimes i wonder about all these things athiests think. but at the end of the day i realise that i dont have the answers and neither do you or any of us on this crazy earth. but i reckon believing in god makes more sense than the stupid big bang theory bs. come on man we had to come from something. we did not just come from some stupid explosion. our god makes the most sense to me. you can call me a fool but at least it makes the most sense.

 

Okay first of all, we have more evidence that points towards the big bang than we have for creation. Tons more. As sivispacem said they are not mutually exclusive. However if you chose to go the route of saying "Well god caused the big bang", that puts the burden of proof on you, not me. You would be the one claiming something is true that we have no evidence for. Until there is evidence of creation and evidence that some powerful being caused the big bang, then you have nothing but an old book with a lot of contradictions in it. Now, I do not have all the answers nor does the Atheist or Scientific community, but we are not going to say "well god done it" every time we don't know something. That's called the god of the gaps argument. People said that storms and volcano eruptions were punishments from god until we found out what caused them. People thought that disease and sickness were punishments from god until this little thing came around called germ theory. So if you want to go the god of the gaps route then that's fine, just know that your god is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance.


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#56

Posted 28 March 2015 - 08:50 PM

well i dont know much about science. all i know is from what i have heard from athiests and christians i feel that christians make more sense. especially bob dutko he makes alot of sense in what he says. you can call me brainwashed i dont care. and also how do you explain near death experiences? thousands probably millions of people have had them. my uncle had one he told me all about it. i have read books on it too. im sure you will say that there is science involoved in it and its some kind of hallucination.


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#57

Posted 28 March 2015 - 10:47 PM

well i dont know much about science. all i know is from what i have heard from athiests and christians i feel that christians make more sense. especially bob dutko he makes alot of sense in what he says. you can call me brainwashed i dont care. and also how do you explain near death experiences? thousands probably millions of people have had them. my uncle had one he told me all about it. i have read books on it too. im sure you will say that there is science involoved in it and its some kind of hallucination.

 

It is a hallucination. People see and dream of things a lot when they die. Mainly things related to stuff they know or hear about. A christian might think they saw jesus or mother mary but that doesn't make it true.


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#58

Posted 28 March 2015 - 10:48 PM Edited by Black_MiD, 28 March 2015 - 10:55 PM.

well i dont know much about science. all i know is from what i have heard from athiests and christians i feel that christians make more sense. especially bob dutko he makes alot of sense in what he says. you can call me brainwashed i dont care. and also how do you explain near death experiences? thousands probably millions of people have had them. my uncle had one he told me all about it. i have read books on it too. im sure you will say that there is science involoved in it and its some kind of hallucination.

Actually, I'm pretty sure many irreligious folks have had NDEs. You just don't hear about their reports as much because they don't feel the need to involve supernatural figures in their story, and are therefore unsuitable to your obvious agenda. Plus, non-supernatural stories about NDEs are much harder to monetize, don't you think?

Furthermore, individual, unrepeatable, unobservable experiences are scientifically meaningless. That is why nobody outside of a specific circle takes these accounts seriously. I can just as easily produce a massive report of a sort of divine being that I have come in contact with, no matter how untrue, and, through the means of some sophisticated and persuasive rhetoric, make myself seem very credible. Would that "make sense", as you put it? Maybe, but it would still be ridiculously false.

If you don't know much about science, then you would do well to research more. As it stands, you're quite biased and therefore unable to judge which position makes more sense. You obviously neglect scientific study and substitute it with information that seems to corroborate your dogma — this is a form of confirmation bias.

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#59

Posted 29 March 2015 - 04:00 AM

no i dont need that crap. all i know is i believe there is a god whether you believe or not. but hey what do i know im just some idiot with aspergers and a learning disorder half the words you mention i dont understand. i just dropped by to give my two cents.


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#60

Posted 29 March 2015 - 04:27 AM Edited by universetwisters, 29 March 2015 - 04:27 AM.

no i dont need that crap. all i know is i believe there is a god whether you believe or not. but hey what do i know im just some idiot with aspergers and a learning disorder half the words you mention i dont understand. i just dropped by to give my two cents.

 

I'm a firm believer of Christianity and sh*t like that embarrasses me.

 

OT: If they want to teach Christianity in school, at least teach about other religions and rather than focusing on what they believe in, focus on what they did for the world. I remember learning about Islam in my world history class in the 9th grade, but we didn't read excerpts from the Qur'an or anything like that, we just learned about the crusades, algebra, etc. So if anything, why not learn about the influence of Christianity in the old world and stuff like that, as opposed to creationism, etc.?

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