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What's your opinion on Hijab?

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Ari Gold
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#61

Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:25 PM

I see it as being flat-out impossible to be in favour of a multi-ethnic society, yet remain opposed to pluralism and multiculturalism. The two are mutually inclusive. Such an opinion implies a severe and misinformed misunderstanding of one of the two (and given how, to be fair, Karzy doesn't come across as some repugnant bogan, I'd say it's more a misunderstanding of multiculturalism perpetuated by some xenophobes than anything else).

King Andreas
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#62

Posted 27 July 2013 - 06:25 PM Edited by King Andreas, 27 July 2013 - 06:31 PM.

Dress code should be respected. When I worked as a File Clerk, the office required my female coworkers wear high heels. If an employer forbids piercings, accept it; if a bank forbids swimwear, accept it. If your employment requires you wear a tie, do so; if a courthouse mandates you tuck your shirt in, do so. However, mandating women wear inherently cultural attire such as a Hijab amounts to mandating men wear Cassocks.

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#63

Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:08 AM Edited by D- Ice, 13 August 2013 - 01:43 AM.

The head covering (Hijab) actually predated the time of Prophet Muhammed and his teachings. It actually existed centuries (if not millenia) before, since the Iron Age in the Levant and the time of Christ. In fact, some Orthodox Christian Churches (and even some Eastern Catholic Churches I've been to in Iraq) still uphold this ancient tradition.
The unsurprising thing is that it's meaning is just what Islam preaches - modesty.

My opinion on it is that it developed at a highly patriarchal time in history, at a place of booming urbanisation and immigration. The Levant at the time was already settled by Semetic Peoples who immigrated from the Arabian Peninsula centuries before. However at that time, waves of Arabian immigrants, in the form of the Arameans, were arriving. The urbanised lifestyle was in stark contrast to their previously nomadic and semi-pastoral life in the deserts of Arabia and Syria - the close mingling of large groups of people in close quarters city environments would have terrified them. Sexual harassment at the time was not only unpunished but far more tolerated than today. I'm sure you all know of the Biblical Passages about rape victims being forced into marriage (Deutronomy 22:28-19), something probably still practiced in places like Saudi Arabia.

So to protect their women (seen as a sort of property, and their protection related to honour), these recently urbanised immigrants started covering their women up.

Islam taken this and placed it into religious law just as Christianity and Judaism did before. However, later, Christianity became progressively Westernised thanks to the Roman Empire and the Nicean Councils, forgetting what they thought were "crazy laws of crazy desert tribes," and dropping them from their religious laws.

Note: Orthodox (and some Conservative) Jewish Law still requires married women to cover their hair, as part of "Dat Moshe" (Law of Moses), which is part of "Tzniut" (laws pertaining to modersty). If the scriptures are to be believed in Historical Fact, then it is likely this custom existed centuries before the Arameans. Perhaps the Arameans picked up this custom from the Israelites. It might even be possible that the Isrealites in turn picked this up from the Mideanites.

Zozo008: Brother, the increased Islamisation of the Arab world, and wider Muslim world today is only expected. I was actually expecting it to occur much earlier. In regards to the Arab world, and in your case Tunisia, it has been a process almost one hundred years in the making.
After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Arab world was carved (IMO completely nonsensical) territories between the European Powers. With the exception of the wise UK (who has gained much experience from previous colonisations), these countries strictly and forcefully enforced Westernisation of the people against their will and to the suffering of many.

By the mid-twentieith century, most Arab countries managed to shake of the shackled of colonialism in favour of a rag-tag of "Pan-Arabism" and Nationalist ideologies. The liberators turned out to be nothing more but a repugnant bunch of oppressive dictators puppeteered by either the old Colonial Powers or the Soviet Union. More forced Westernisation or anti-religious Socialism was forced down people's throat, and decades of oppression followed.

People started turning to religion as an alternative that they saw as uncorruptable by outside colonial powers. It also became the best resistance - people are far more willing to sacrifice their lives if they think there's heaven on the other side. Roll on the 1982 Hama Massacre and the Algerian Civil War after the democratic election of Islamists in 1992. Similar resistance movements against the dictators gew in support, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. So while the dictators retained power, there was a growing Islamist undercurrent growing amongstthe people.

9/11 happened. Osama Bin Laden claimed it was to avenge all the oppression by "evil Zionist Crusaders" and whatnot - even though very little - if any - was experienced by the average Afghan once the Taliban defeated the Northern Alliance. What followed was the massive Western backlash against Islam as a whole, which was then focussed against Islamists, then again only against the Extremists. Sharing a common enemy, these Arab dictators were only too happy to aid the West in this latest endeavour. I even remember Saddam giving talks about the evils of Islamismon TV in Iraq - before his dramatic switch to supporting them once he realised the West was after him and posed a greater threat.
The crackdown by these dictators - often with the help of the West - focused on Islamic culture as a whole, in hopes of cementing their power and rule.

So as you can see, people in the Arab world have been feeling their Islamic identity being under threat for generations. Others completely lost their Islamic identity over the years, but their oppression by secularists and outside powers is driving them back.
I see this increased Islamisation as a backlash against generations of oppression and outside interference by the West and the Soviet Union, which was largely coupled with secularism, and which now many Arabs on the street view as one and the same.

So when Western leaders come on television saying they'll support the Democratic Opposition but not the Islamists, suddenly the majority of people in the Democratic Oppostion become the Islamists. Then Western leaders come on the news again, saying they'll support the Islamists so long as they aren't Extremists, another shift occures amongst the people towards the Extremists. tounge2.gif
I think people will continue this as long as they'll see the West interfering in any way seen as anti-Islamic.

In the event that the West doesn't support the crazy extremists, then they'll just gain more credibility as being anti-colonial, and most worryingly, the more they will actually start turning anti-West.

I'm really interested in seeing how this will play out - especially in regards to the Syrian Opposition, whose strongest faction are the Islamists, who are turning against the so-called "Moderate Islamist" supported by the West. The developments in Egypt are also very interesting too.

On-Topic:
My honest opinion is that women - and people in general - should be free to wear whatever they want, so long as it doesn't pose direct and significant harm to others. I personally think it is completely acceptable for any women to wear the Hijab or even the full-face cover, if she so chooses. With regards to full-face covers, women should be willing to show their faces for security or identification purposes, obviously.
Though I would probably get depressed if I lived in a place where most women cover up, as can't gawk at women, or be motivated to try and pick-up. Though I guess that's the whole purpose of Hijab, Burkhas and face veils.

TC.


Mr. Sleepy
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#64

Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:28 AM

I'd like to clarify to some people that as a matter of fact, in my religion, nothing related to Burka or Niqab exists -AT ALL-, that is something that was produced by the Islamists, extremists and all others that belong to said criteria, I've read multiple lines from the Qur'an and I've asked my father multiple times if something related to the Burka or Niqab exists in Islam or Qur'an, it doesn't.

That's just a form of idiots to abuse their power and use religion to their own benefits and powers.
I will never approve of such a thing in my family, EVER, if I would ever see my daughter or wife with that, I'd tell her to take it off, it's just a no-no for me. I'm also not a fan of the hijab, I rather that a woman does not wear it, also, the hijab isn't exclusive to Islam, if you enter the church you'll notice Mary wearing a "hijab" on her head, in all of those pictures and stained-glass and whatnot.

All in all, I do not approve of the Burka - Niqab, I don't care if someone wears the hijab.

I hope the above clarifies some confusion.
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Csabi98
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#65

Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:50 AM

Do men wear clothing to cover themselves up? In normal cases, not. How many overweight and underweight men are out there who are judged worse than women. They are discriminated and made fun of by a group before even meeting, yet they don't refrain to hiding themselves behind clothing, nor to unnatural surgical methods contrary to some women.

If a woman hides her body on her own will, doesn't it mean that she has no confidence at all? Aren't they hiding from reality? Before surgical methods were found to beautify people everyone had to accept the way they were. Did they hide?

Don't people get judged just as much for clothing as for anything else? From the perspective of a man doesn't Hijab immediatly translate to "no self-esteem" or "I'm ugly" state as much as exposing clothes translate to "slutty"?

As for religious matters, I accept that because I couldn't care less about their religious views, but hiding from society because of looks is something that I don't consider entirely normal. If they are so religious, why don't they accept that they were 'created' that way for a reason and move on? As I said, I'm referring to those who wear Hijab to hide instead of religious reasons.

D4 Damager
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#66

Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:29 PM

QUOTE (Csabi98 @ Tuesday, Aug 13 2013, 10:50)
Do men wear clothing to cover themselves up? In normal cases, not. How many overweight and underweight men are out there who are judged worse than women. They are discriminated and made fun of by a group before even meeting, yet they don't refrain to hiding themselves behind clothing, nor to unnatural surgical methods contrary to some women.

If a woman hides her body on her own will, doesn't it mean that she has no confidence at all? Aren't they hiding from reality? Before surgical methods were found to beautify people everyone had to accept the way they were. Did they hide?

Don't people get judged just as much for clothing as for anything else? From the perspective of a man doesn't Hijab immediatly translate to "no self-esteem" or "I'm ugly" state as much as exposing clothes translate to "slutty"?

As for religious matters, I accept that because I couldn't care less about their religious views, but hiding from society because of looks is something that I don't consider entirely normal. If they are so religious, why don't they accept that they were 'created' that way for a reason and move on? As I said, I'm referring to those who wear Hijab to hide instead of religious reasons.

Who wears a hijab to "hide"? It's not like putting a pillowcase on your head and pretending to be a ghost while you run around the garden, it's a commitment to a faith when done correctly, and when done incorrectly it is a response to a form of domestic abuse by their husband. Either way it's not done to "hide" some sort of physical defect.

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#67

Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:44 PM

QUOTE (D4 Damager @ Wednesday, Aug 14 2013, 21:29)
QUOTE (Csabi98 @ Tuesday, Aug 13 2013, 10:50)
Do men wear clothing to cover themselves up? In normal cases, not. How many overweight and underweight men are out there who are judged worse than women. They are discriminated and made fun of by a group before even meeting, yet they don't refrain to hiding themselves behind clothing, nor to unnatural surgical methods contrary to some women.

If a woman hides her body on her own will, doesn't it mean that she has no confidence at all? Aren't they hiding from reality? Before surgical methods were found to beautify people everyone had to accept the way they were. Did they hide?

Don't people get judged just as much for clothing as for anything else? From the perspective of a man doesn't Hijab immediatly translate to "no self-esteem" or "I'm ugly" state as much as exposing clothes translate to "slutty"?

As for religious matters, I accept that because I couldn't care less about their religious views, but hiding from society because of looks is something that I don't consider entirely normal. If they are so religious, why don't they accept that they were 'created' that way for a reason and move on? As I said, I'm referring to those who wear Hijab to hide instead of religious reasons.

Who wears a hijab to "hide"? It's not like putting a pillowcase on your head and pretending to be a ghost while you run around the garden, it's a commitment to a faith when done correctly, and when done incorrectly it is a response to a form of domestic abuse by their husband. Either way it's not done to "hide" some sort of physical defect.

Well women should have a choice into whether they decide to wear such items or not. As far as I am concerned, it may be a commitment to faith but if they are wearing it purposely because they think they are forced to, I think that is taking it too far. Even more so, why would followers of the same faith choose not to wear hijab, wouldn't that be going against the so called faith?

I agree with the points being made by Csabi98. Firstly, his point about men not covering up in clothing no matter how discriminated they may be is very valid indeed. To be called 'fat' and 'shameful' and then completely disregard it and live their life as a normal human should, the life that they have been entitled to and from a religious aspect, the way that God wants them to be shows how confident and real they actually are, well, at least in my opinion.

Secondly, lets say that the women wearing hijab is not for faith commitment but hiding their body. That would imply that they feel something is wrong with themselves and need to hide from the world, not show anyone because they truly are ashamed. Now, putting that into a religious point a view, one could argue that again God had intended these people to look like that so why should they have to cover themselves as a faithful commitment? In fact, that doesn't seem very faithful at all in my opinion. It is almost as if they see that their whole life is devoted away from its true meaning but for the faith.

So in conclusion the point that I am trying to make is that, women should be free to wear what they want, not be forced to because of their feelings towards their own looks or their faith, now I'm not saying it's wrong, i'm saying its optional. They are no less faithful in my opinion from wearing what they want. If they want to wear hijab then I say 'Go Ahead!' there is nothing prohibiting them from doing so.

D4 Damager
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#68

Posted 16 August 2013 - 04:16 AM

I have already said that almost nobody wears a hijab for the purpose of hiding physical defects. So that sort of dismisses much of your post which seems to be rather rambling and nonsensical.

I agree that women should always have a choice, but choosing not to wear a hijab is not going against the faith to some people because it is a lifestyle choice and so relates to the way that somebody was brought up, etc.

A hijab doesn't translate to "I'm ugly" unless you're a culturally insensitive individual; to me a hijab signifies a commitment to a faith, and nothinf more or less can be read into that...

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#69

Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Zizo008 @ Sunday, May 12 2013, 21:07)
I live in a muslim country (Tunisia), and ever since the so called "Revolution" went down, these jihadists and exteremtists started appearing in huge numbers, that includes women wearing hijab, at times it's scary, as if they're ghosts or something, i personaly don't like it, i googled it up for any fallacies or arguments against it, i didn't find anything big, just that women wear it to please "God" obey him and so men don't see them as sex objects. Here's what i found:

QUOTE (Islam Women site)
Why She Won't Wear Hijab!
A Discussion by A.Q. Alidost

A conversation for Muslim sisters:

"I'm so tired."

"Tired of what?"

"Of all these people judging me."

"Who judged you?"

"Like that woman, every time I sit with her, she tells me to wear hijab."

"Oh, hijab and music! The mother of all topics!"

"Yeah! I listen to music without hijab... haha!"

"Maybe she was just giving you advice."

"I don't need her advice. I know my religion. Can't she mind her own business?"

"Maybe you misunderstood. She was just being nice."

"Keeping out of my business, that would be nice..."

"But it's her duty to encourage you do to good."

"Trust me. That was no encouragement. And what do you mean 'good'?"

"Well, wearing hijab, that would be a good thing to do."

"Says who?"

"It's in the Quran, isn't it?"

"Yes. She did quote me something."

"She said Surah Nur, and other places of the Quran."

"Yes, but it's not a big sin anyway. Helping people and praying is more important."

"True. But big things start with small things."

"That's a good point, but what you wear is not important. What's important is to have a good healthy heart."

"What you wear is not important?"

"That's what I said."

"Then why do you spend an hour every morning fixing up?"

"What do you mean?"

"You spend money on cosmetics, not to mention all the time you spend on fixing your hair and low-carb dieting."

"So?"

"So, your appearance IS important."

"No. I said wearing hijab is not an important thing in religion."

"If it's not an important thing in religion, why is it mentioned in the Noble Quran?"

"You know I can't follow all that's in Quran."

"You mean God tells you something to do, you disobey and then it's OK?"

"Yes. God is forgiving."

"God is forgiving to those who repent and do not repeat their mistakes."

"Says who?"

"Says the same book that tells you to cover."

"But I don't like hijab, it limits my freedom."

"But the lotions, lipsticks, mascara and other cosmetics set you free?!
What's your definition of freedom anyway?"

"Freedom is in doing whatever you like to do."

"No. Freedom is in doing the right thing, not in doing whatever we wish to do."

"Look! I've seen so many people who don't wear hijab and are nice people, and so many who wear hijab and are bad people."

"So what? There are people who are nice to you but are alcoholic. Should we all be alcoholics? You made a stupid point."

"I don't want to be an extremist or a fanatic. I'm OK the way I am without hijab."

"Then you are a secular fanatic. An extremist in disobeying God."

"You don't get it, if I wear hijab, who would marry me?!"

"So all these people with hijab never get married?!"

"Okay! What if I get married and my husband doesn't like it? And wants me to remove it?"

"What if your husband wants you to go out with him on a bank robbery?!"

"That's irrelevant, bank robbery is a crime."

"Disobeying your Creator is not a crime?"

"But then who would hire me?"

"A company that respects people for who they are."

"Not after 9-11"

Yes. After 9-11. Don't you know about Hanan who just got into med school?
And the other one, what was her name, the girl who always wore a white hijab... ummm..."

"Yasmin?"

"Yes. Yasmin. She just finished her MBA and is now interning for GE."

"Why do you reduce religion to a piece of cloth anyway?"

"Why do you reduce womanhood to high heals and lipstick colors?"

"You didn't answer my question."

"In fact, I did. Hijab is not just a piece of cloth. It is obeying God in a difficult environment. It is courage, faith in action, and true womanhood.
But your short sleeves, tight pants..."

"That's called 'fashion', you live in a cave or something? First of all, hijab was founded by men who wanted to control women."

"Really? I did not know men could control women by hijab."

"Yes. That's what it is."

"What about the women who fight their husbands to wear hijab? And women in France who are forced to remove their hijab by men? What do you say about that?"

"Well, that's different."

"What difference? The woman who asked you to wear hijab... she was a woman, right?"

"Right, but..."

"But fashions that are designed and promoted by male-dominated corporations, set you free? Men have no control on exposing women and using them as a commodity?! Give me a break!"

"Wait, let me finish, I was saying..."

"Saying what? You think that men control women by hijab?"

"Yes."

"Specifically how?"

"By telling women how and what to wear, dummy!"

"Doesn't TV, magazines and movies tell you what to wear, and how to be 'attractive'?"

"Of course, it's fashion."

"Isn't that control? Pressuring you to wear what they want you to wear?"

[Silence]

"Not just controlling you, but also controlling the market."

"What do you mean?"

"I mean, you are told to look skinny and anorexic like that woman on the cover of the magazine, by men who design those magazines and sell those products."

"I don't get it. What does hijab have to do with products."

"It has everything to do with that. Don't you see? Hijab is a threat to consumerism, women who spend billions of dollars to look skinny and live by standards of fashion designed by men... and then here is Islam, saying trash all that nonsense and focus on your soul, not on your looks, and do not worry what men think of your looks."

"Like I don't have to buy hijab? Isn't hijab a product?"

"Yes, it is. It is a product that sets you free from male-dominated consumerism."

"Stop lecturing me! I WILL NOT WEAR HIJAB!

It is awkward, outdated, and totally not suitable for this society... Moreover, I am only 20 and too young to wear hijab!"

"Fine. Say that to your Lord, when you face Him on Judgment Day."

"Fine."

"Fine."

[Silence]

"Shut up and I don't want to hear more about hijab niqab schmijab Punjab!"

[Silence]

She stared at the mirror, tired of arguing with herself all this time.

Successful enough, she managed to shut the voices in her head, with her own opinions triumphant in victory on the matter, and a final modern decision accepted by the society - but rejected by the Faith:

QUOTE
"Why do Muslim women have to cover their heads?" This question is one which is asked by Muslim and non-Muslim alike. For many women it is the truest test of being a Muslim.

The answer to the question is very simple - Muslim women observe HIJAB (covering the head and the body) because Allah has told them to do so.

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." [Noble Quran 33:59]

Other secondary reasons include the requirement for modesty in both men and women. Both will then be evaluated for intelligence and skills instead of looks and sexuality. An Iranian school girl is quoted as saying, "We want to stop men from treating us like sex objects, as they have always done. We want them to ignore our appearance and to be attentive to our personalities and mind. We want them to take us seriously and treat us as equals and not just chase us around for our bodies and physical looks." A Muslim woman who covers her head is making a statement about her identity. Anyone who sees her will know that she is a Muslim and has a good moral character. Many Muslim women who cover are filled with dignity and self esteem; they are pleased to be identified as a Muslim woman. As a chaste, modest, pure woman, she does not want her sexuality to enter into interactions with men in the smallest degree. A woman who covers herself is concealing her sexuality but allowing her femininity to be brought out.

This is what i found on the internet. I dislike it, and since it's becoming a big deal in my country, i definetly need some basic arguments on the point. Besides that, what is your view about it?

You want arguments against wearing hijab? Well, I thought about it for a minute and the first thing that popped into my mind was vitamin D deficiency.
Vitamin D is fat soluble vitamin which is an essential nutrient for human health. Vitamin D is synthesised when ultraviolet rays from sunlight strike the human skin triggering a series of reactions, it is by this method that a vast majority of a persons daily intake of Vitamin D is produced.

So Muslim women, lacking exposure to sunlight suffer from vitamin D deficiency.

Low levels of Vitamin D have also been linked to a whole host of devastating disorders including cardiovascular diseases, type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis. There is also a strong association between deficiency in Vitamin D and an increased risk of developing several deadly cancers, including breast cancer.

The question is, why would god make us need vitamin D and want women to wear hijab at the same time?
Logic fail, if you see prophet Muhammed, tell him to rewrite that book.

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#70

Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:27 PM

user posted image

I love it how people try to uncover the real, "logical" reason why Hijab exists. Well, this is religion we talk about and it's one way to oppress women. Simple as that. The only real question here, should woman be allowed to wear whatever she wants or not. monocle.gif

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#71

Posted 07 September 2013 - 01:18 PM Edited by El Zilcho, 07 September 2013 - 01:20 PM.

I think it's despicable, and symptomatic of the larger issue of the religious bigotry, encapsulated by Islam, halting progress. If in the modern world, as citizens of liberal democracies, we can accept a woman being fully covered to stop the rampaging forces of male sexuality, with the burden on the woman's 'temptation' as the problem, then we're being far too tolerant. No one should be afraid to say openly that it is a barbarous tradition, one that should have been consigned to oblivion long ago.

 

And even if you don't want to take a stand against religion per se, it is a fact that the hijab is a tribal tradition from parts of Arabia, not, in actuality, a religious necessity in Islam. And as to whether it is a choice or not, it is something that is indoctrinated into young girls from an early age, so while they may defend their 'choice' at an older age, they have still have an environment and attitude conducive to wearing the hijab impressed upon them from an early age.

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#72

Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:18 AM Edited by sivispacem, 31 December 2013 - 08:38 AM.

If you buy the story that your "creator" told you to do so, go for it. I'd do the same if I thought there was an all powerful and all knowing God telling me to do it. In fact if that's what you really believe, I can't understand how you wouldn't follow every exact word if the threat is eternity in hell and the reward is eternity in heaven. Oh, and the conversation in the first post is ridiculous. It was very clearly written by one person debating another imaginary person, making up dumb arguments that are very easy to refute with arguments that are also dumb but slightly less so.

 

I've merged your two posts together- next time please use the edit button- SVP





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