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What's your opinion on Hijab?

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Ari Gold
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#31

Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:05 AM Edited by Stefche, 01 July 2013 - 03:07 AM.

QUOTE (Mm9090 @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 21:59)
@Stefche those countries definitely have many different cultures, but again, from my experience, it's far more voluntarily segregated. People of different faiths will stick to their groups and never interact. All they'll know about their "neighbours" is from what they read in the media. It's why looney hate groups like the EDL gain such popularity, to them all Muslims are terrorists out to enforce Sharia law. By that logic I've got to make sure my best mate doesn't strap a bomb to my chest lol.gif None of their followers have ever met a Muslim person, they wouldn't be in the EDL if they met the average non-psycho Muslim.
So while there are many cultures in the same place they're not truly "multicultural."

Do you mind enlightening me to these experiences of yours which suggest that people in Australia, the UK and the US voluntarily segregate themselves more than people in... South Africa of all places? It's interesting you use the EDL as a standard bearer for how the average Englishman feels about other cultures, completely discounting that London is one of the most multi-cultural and multi-ethnic cities in the world. Not to mention that support for the EDL is so small it's negligible. Same with Melbourne, Sydney, Los Angeles, New York, Toronto... And pretty much any cosmopolitan metropolitan area with a large and dense population, which is where the majority of people in these culturally heterogeneous countries reside. Maybe in the more rural and conservative areas of these countries it'd be more homogenous and people would be a bit more insulated from other cultures, but even then, you're clutching at straws if you're going to claim that this is voluntary and subversively racist. I'd honestly be willing to bet that I have a more ethnically and religiously diverse group of friends and acquaintances than you, honestly.

sivispacem
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#32

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:17 AM

Yeah, Xenophobia is still pretty rife in South Africa despite the end of Apartheid. There have been numerous cases of mass murders targeting immigrant populations from elsewhere in Africa, like Mozambique, over the last few years. I mean, I wouldn't say that things are all hunky-dory in Western Europe, but I think it's pretty ignorant to use the EDL stereotype to represent the UK, US and Australia, despite the fact people adhering to that stereotype represent a proportion of the population so small as to constitute a rounding error, and yet fail to acknowledge a proportionally much larger number of citizens in South Africa have either instigated, been involved in or contributed towards Xenophobic violence over the last decade?

Melchior
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#33

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:53 AM

QUOTE (Mm9090 @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 10:45)
@Melchior This woman I've mentioned is a highly successful and well respected lawyer. Achieved all while wearing a hijab.

Then I have to either say it's different where you live, or call bullsh*t. I have never seen a professional wearing a hijab.

GrandMaster Smith
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#34

Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:38 AM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Saturday, May 18 2013, 23:29)
The problem is that the only reason they have any desire to wear it is societal conditioning. They do so because the religious indoctrination of misogyny has enforced the idea that they should wear it, or at least cover themselves. I'd have no objection to it if wearing it was truly voluntary and personal decision but even if you ignore the direct influences of other individuals you still have generations of societal conditioning to contend with. Therefore it isn't really a free decision they've made.

But isn't nearly everything we do a part of social conditioning?

Christianity has taught us to be shameful of our 'private' organs therefore require clothes. We must always be at least somewhat clothed in public or else we can be arrested and put in jail. We can even be declined service at a store if we aren't wearing shoes/shirts.

We were born naked, basically born criminals being forced to wear clothes due to societal conditioning.



Do you have objections to western countries and the things they force upon us?

sivispacem
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#35

Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:03 AM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 01:38)
QUOTE (sivispacem @ Saturday, May 18 2013, 23:29)
The problem is that the only reason they have any desire to wear it is societal conditioning. They do so because the religious indoctrination of misogyny has enforced the idea that they should wear it, or at least cover themselves. I'd have no objection to it if wearing it was truly voluntary and personal decision but even if you ignore the direct influences of other individuals you still have generations of societal conditioning to contend with. Therefore it isn't really a free decision they've made.

But isn't nearly everything we do a part of social conditioning?

Christianity has taught us to be shameful of our 'private' organs therefore require clothes. We must always be at least somewhat clothed in public or else we can be arrested and put in jail. We can even be declined service at a store if we aren't wearing shoes/shirts.

We were born naked, basically born criminals being forced to wear clothes due to societal conditioning.

My objection to the Hijab isn't that it is a result of societal conditioning, it's that the societal conditioning it is a result of is misogynistic and discriminatory. As you rightly point out, many things can be attributed to societal conditioning but the majority of these, like the example you use, are standards applied across the whole of society. Something like the Hijab originally existed for the sole purpose of subjugating a sector of society; my only mention of the issues of societal conditioning was to demonstrate that it is difficult to rationally and freely choose to wear the Hijab free of other influence. Therefore, some lingering misogynistic aspect of it remains, even if many of those who chose "voluntarily" to wear it believe they are doing so of their own free will.

Also, it might be worth pointing out the human modesty and fully-clothed societies pre-date Christianity by several thousand years.

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 01:38)
Do you have objections to western countries and the things they force upon us?

Of course I do, when those things discriminate unfairly against different sectors of society. Given that we're discussing the context of religious influence on society, those are the examples I'll use. I object strongly to religious efforts to block the legalisation of same-sex marriage, afforded all the rights of conventional marriage. I strongly object to the idea that women should be subservient to men in a religious context, and therefore women cannot be high-ranking figures in the church if they wish to be. I strongly object to Catholic and some Baptist attitudes towards abortion and women's rights. I object to the use of religious belief and indoctrination as a tool against people with addictions and psychological compulsions as part of treatment (you can't pray addiction away).

Carbonox
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#36

Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:26 PM

EDIT: nvm, I see that issue was posted above already.

Anyway yes, I believe they only want to wear those face covers because they've been brainwashed by an oppressive society into thinking it's correct.

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#37

Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:47 AM

I think it's more cultural than religious, like circumcision.

I don't really have a problem with it, they're not the nicest things to look at but if she chooses to wear it then I've no reason to be offended.
However, the problem is drawing the line between wearing it out of choice or because her community forces her to do so.
When I see groups of women in Bath covered in their Hijabs, I can tell that they are viewed with suspicion by others, people just don't like the site of them, so I wonder if the women really enjoy being stared and laughed at by everyone who walks past them.

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#38

Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:59 AM Edited by KaRzY6, 08 July 2013 - 09:03 AM.

I'm not against Islam, it's their religion and their right to be a Muslim. But I'm not too fond on Muslims coming to a Western country (UK, France, Australia etc.) and wearing the hijab and their other religious clothes. They can practice their religion and wear the hijab in private, but I don't think it's appropriate for out in the public and workplace. I find it a little disrespectful in a way. It's double-standards basically. They can come to Australia and not dress how we dress (to an extent; because fashion is very "weird" in the Western world), but if a female from Australia goes to an Islamic country, they have to cover up because of the law.

I 100% agree with France and the Netherlands (I think it was these countries, and maybe a couple more) on banning the burqa. You go to the Netherlands, you are Dutch; You speak Dutch and act Dutch. Simple as that.

Very nice quote: [Link]
QUOTE
On February 4th, 2013, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, addressed the Duma,
(Russian Parliament), and gave a speech about the tensions with minorities in Russia:

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Shari Ďa Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'.

We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honourable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians.


It's not really about the Hijab thing, but it's very relevant to the it in Western societies.

sivispacem
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#39

Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:11 AM

One of the things that is supposed to separate the Western world from other places without the same freedoms is the fact that people are free to practice and express their religious views publicly without persecution for doing so. I personally believe that modern societies should be secular and all religious belief should be a private, personal matter but I wouldn't go as far as to outright ban people from behaving in ways that don't adhere to an internally generated stereotype of what constitutes normality in a nation. That's just unnecessarily draconian and implies social and cultural superiority and hegemony, none of which are positive things.

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#40

Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:37 AM Edited by Melchior, 11 July 2013 - 05:11 AM.

Good to know we should become a repressive, homogeneous theocracy because most places are so if we don't then it's a double standard. It's only fair that people get the same sh*tty treatment here that we get when we go overseas.

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#41

Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:05 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, Jul 8 2013, 21:37)
Good to know we should become a repressive, heterogeneous theocracy because most places are so if we don't then it's a double standard. It's only fair that people get the same sh*tty treatment here that we get when we go overseas.

Not sure if you agree or disagree with me?

sivispacem
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#42

Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:01 PM

QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Monday, Jul 8 2013, 13:05)
QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, Jul 8 2013, 21:37)
Good to know we should become a repressive, heterogeneous theocracy because most places are so if we don't then it's a double standard. It's only fair that people get the same sh*tty treatment here that we get when we go overseas.

Not sure if you agree or disagree with me?

He's being sarcastic. He disagrees with you, presumably for reasons similar to the ones I highlighted.

Chris Fromage
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#43

Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:08 PM Edited by Chris Fromage, 08 July 2013 - 02:26 PM.

QUOTE
Then I have to either say it's different where you live, or call bullsh*t. I have never seen a professional wearing a hijab.


You probably live somewhere else. Wearing a hijab does not mean you are not good enough for a work or not allowed for something "special"...

http://cdncms.zaman....2/07/avukat.jpg
http://www.thenation...350214945AR.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphoto...354734260_n.jpg

The reason that most female muslim professionals (Mostly in the West) don't wear a hijab is because most universities don't allow hijabs during the lessons. And they don't want to take it of what also is the reason that they only have a high-school diploma.

QUOTE
so I wonder if the women really enjoy being stared and laughed at by everyone who walks past them.


In the Islam, they see it as "a test" by God. Everyone would hate it when people stare at them, but they believe they will get rewarded for their patience and endurance in the Afterlife.
(Of course, it is not like that they will never go to heaven if they don't wear it...)

QUOTE
the problem is drawing the line between wearing it out of choice or because her community forces her to do so.


True, but that is for both sides. In my opinion, You can not force a woman to wear a Hijab, but neither should the government be allowed to force the woman not wear it.
As people said it a few times: It's their own opinion.


And I would also want to add this:

This is a hijab:
user posted image
This is a burqa:
user posted image
Some people confuse them.

And just to add my opinion too: I am not against any of those two. I believe the people should be ale to wear anything they want. Not just because of religions. but personally, I like the hijab more.

sivispacem
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#44

Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:41 PM

Actually your "Burka" is a Niqab. The Burka is a cloak which covers the head and body completely save for a mesh portion over the eyes. Like this:

user posted image

Ari Gold
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#45

Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:00 AM

QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Monday, Jul 8 2013, 18:59)
I'm not against Islam, it's their religion and their right to be a Muslim. But I'm not too fond on Muslims coming to a Western country (UK, France, Australia etc.) and wearing the hijab and their other religious clothes. They can practice their religion and wear the hijab in private, but I don't think it's appropriate for out in the public and workplace. I find it a little disrespectful in a way. It's double-standards basically. They can come to Australia and not dress how we dress (to an extent; because fashion is very "weird" in the Western world), but if a female from Australia goes to an Islamic country, they have to cover up because of the law.

I 100% agree with France and the Netherlands (I think it was these countries, and maybe a couple more) on banning the burqa. You go to the Netherlands, you are Dutch; You speak Dutch and act Dutch. Simple as that.

Very nice quote: [Link]
QUOTE
On February 4th, 2013, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, addressed the Duma,
(Russian Parliament), and gave a speech about the tensions with minorities in Russia:

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Shari Ďa Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'.

We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honourable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians.


It's not really about the Hijab thing, but it's very relevant to the it in Western societies.

Yep, and the same group of people purporting the nonsense you believe in also argued back in the 50s, 60s and 70s that "Wogs", if given complete cultural free reign, were going to ruin the Anglo-Saxon status quo of meat pies, the English language, the Anglican church, AFL, rugby and cricket with their strange and "weird" imported cultural tastes like soccer (or should I say more accurately "Wogball"), the Catholic/Orthodox churches and their strange foreign tongues like Italian and Greek. Because, you know, they weren't "Australian", and when they came to Australia they had to do "Australian" things. I mean, why should Greeks open a souvlaki shop, or Turks a kebab van, when they're in Melbourne? That's un-Australian.They're in f*cking STRAYA, shrimps on the barbie and VBs all the time m8.

dozingoff.gif

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#46

Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:21 AM

QUOTE (Stefche @ Tuesday, Jul 9 2013, 15:00)
QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Monday, Jul 8 2013, 18:59)
I'm not against Islam, it's their religion and their right to be a Muslim. But I'm not too fond on Muslims coming to a Western country (UK, France, Australia etc.) and wearing the hijab and their other religious clothes. They can practice their religion and wear the hijab in private, but I don't think it's appropriate for out in the public and workplace. I find it a little disrespectful in a way. It's double-standards basically. They can come to Australia and not dress how we dress (to an extent; because fashion is very "weird" in the Western world), but if a female from Australia goes to an Islamic country, they have to cover up because of the law.

I 100% agree with France and the Netherlands (I think it was these countries, and maybe a couple more) on banning the burqa. You go to the Netherlands, you are Dutch; You speak Dutch and act Dutch. Simple as that.

Very nice quote: [Link]
QUOTE
On February 4th, 2013, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, addressed the Duma,
(Russian Parliament), and gave a speech about the tensions with minorities in Russia:

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Shari Ďa Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'.

We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honourable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians.


It's not really about the Hijab thing, but it's very relevant to the it in Western societies.

Yep, and the same group of people purporting the nonsense you believe in also argued back in the 50s, 60s and 70s that "Wogs", if given complete cultural free reign, were going to ruin the Anglo-Saxon status quo of meat pies, the English language, the Anglican church, AFL, rugby and cricket with their strange and "weird" imported cultural tastes like soccer (or should I say more accurately "Wogball"), the Catholic/Orthodox churches and their strange foreign tongues like Italian and Greek. Because, you know, they weren't "Australian", and when they came to Australia they had to do "Australian" things. I mean, why should Greeks open a souvlaki shop, or Turks a kebab van, when they're in Melbourne? That's un-Australian.They're in f*cking STRAYA, shrimps on the barbie and VBs all the time m8.

dozingoff.gif

http://alldownunder....ration-poll.htm

The link above shows how much different immigration by "Wogs" in the 50s, 60s and 70s is to immigration in the 21st century.

----------------------------

I would give this video a look at. Basically, it's a foreigner himself explaining why multiculturalism is a failure in Australia and the Western world.


Ari Gold
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#47

Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Tuesday, Jul 9 2013, 21:21)
http://alldownunder....ration-poll.htm

The link above shows how much different immigration by "Wogs" in the 50s, 60s and 70s is to immigration in the 21st century.

First point of hypocrisy I found in that link:

QUOTE
"Shouldn't we insist they have a basic knowledge of English before we let them migrate here?"


What he forgot to mention is that people from Eastern and Southern Europe didn't have to speak English when they came here in the '60s! My own dad learnt English when he went to school, and couldn't hold a basic conversation with any classmates for at least a year. My mum (who arrived at the turn of the '90s) learnt English by watching American soap operas. The same applies to many of the immigrants coming from the Middle East and Asia who have arrived in recent years/decades. People like to argue about how "few" of them speak English, yet they forget how many older European migrants rarely speak English. I myself barely speak English with my relatives in Australia (unless they were actually born here like me).

The only form of justification people throw up in opposition to multiculturalism is that "oh, they don't fit in". There are absolutely no grounds for those statements, and are primarily formed from anecdotes spawned by one-off encounters between disgruntled Anglo-Saxons and a recent migrant who "appears" to not fit in well. This brings up an entire question of what it means to "fit in", especially in a country as heterogeneous as ours. If you're talking about something as simple as paying taxes and not bothering anyone else, and allowing migrants to live their lives as they please (lol how dare they do that, right?), then, well, 99% of migrants from all over the world who come to Australia already behave in that manner.

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#48

Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:27 AM

But what about the Aussie culture part about it? He made a very good point about how he adapted to the Aussie culture and was excepted as an Aussie. Where as a lot more immigrates in the last decade, isolate themselves and don't try to integrate into Australia. Making it more so we have to accommodate them instead.

German Chancellor admitted that multicultural is a failure in Germany. Saying that Germany will no longer accommodate immigrates, they will have to integrate into German society. It looks as so France and the Netherlands are trying to fix there mistakes as well. Why are countries like Australia continuing to accommodate immigrates, when you can see the mistakes many European countries have made, and some of them are trying to reserve it.

Ari Gold
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#49

Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:34 AM

There's no such "thing" as Aussie culture. We're a heterogeneous, plural society built on immigrants. France and Germany aren't since they are far more culturally and ethnically homogenous. The German city states and France had centuries upon centuries of cultural history when Aborigines were still running around with complete freedom around the continent before Europeans colonised it not even two-and-a-half-centuries ago.

Also, there's absolutely nothing at all to suggest that immigrants coming in the last decade are failing to "adapt" to Australia. People suggested that Asians who came in the 70s and 80s wouldn't be able to adapt into Australian culture... And, well, that turned out to be complete f*cking garbage. Do you have any evidence that they, or the Arabs and North Africans who have been the largest migrant groups since the 90s, are failing to adapt? Evidence which is so strong and so unambiguous to suggest that we should actually stop letting them into the country* and, in the worst case scenario, send them back to where they came from*?

* - Italicised to highlight the supreme retardation members of the really conservative minority suffer towards (non-British) immigrants to Australia

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#50

Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:53 AM Edited by KaRzY6, 10 July 2013 - 10:09 AM.

QUOTE
There's no such "thing" as Aussie culture. We're a heterogeneous, plural society built on immigrants. France and Germany aren't since they are far more culturally and ethnically homogenous. The German city states and France had centuries upon centuries of cultural history when Aborigines were still running around with complete freedom around the continent before Europeans colonised it not even two-and-a-half-centuries ago.

That is complete bullsh*t. Australia has developed a unique culture. Just because we haven't been apart of the "known world" for thousands of years, doesn't mean we don't have a culture. You even mentioned some things before...

QUOTE
meat pies, the English language, the Anglican church, AFL, rugby and cricket


You said this before. This is part of our culture. Beer, BBQ's, Aussie Rules Football etc. are other examples of our culture. Days like Australia Day and AFL Grand Final Day are great days to show our pride in our nation, drink some "grog" and have a BBQ. How can you say we don't have a culture because we have only been a colony/nation for roughly 250 years? It's clearly not as developed and old as the French or German culture, but Australia still has it's own unique culture.

QUOTE
stop letting them into the country* and, in the worst case scenario, send them back to where they came from*?

No, I'm not one of those people. As said in the video I posted before, I'm all for a multi-ethnic nation, not a multicultural nation. Big different between the two.

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#51

Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 09:53)
That is complete bullsh*t. Australia has developed a unique culture. Just because we haven't been apart of the "known world" for thousands of years, doesn't mean we don't have a culture. You even mentioned some things before...

Sorry for interposing, but I think you're the one who's exuding "bullsh*t" here. Stefche is right, there's no such thing as Aussie Culture." You guys do have your own culture but it's just a mixture of cultures of many number of nations that made up Australia.

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#52

Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (rudy. @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 22:26)
QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 09:53)
That is complete bullsh*t. Australia has developed a unique culture. Just because we haven't been apart of the "known world" for thousands of years, doesn't mean we don't have a culture. You even mentioned some things before...

Sorry for interposing, but I think you're the one who's exuding "bullsh*t" here. Stefche is right, there's no such thing as Aussie Culture." You guys do have your own culture but it's just a mixture of cultures of many number of nations that made up Australia.

But it's still culture, even if it's a mix of other cultures. That's like saying English isn't a language because it's mix of other languages. It's still a language, isn't it?

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#53

Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 11:36)
QUOTE (rudy. @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 22:26)
QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 09:53)
That is complete bullsh*t. Australia has developed a unique culture. Just because we haven't been apart of the "known world" for thousands of years, doesn't mean we don't have a culture. You even mentioned some things before...

Sorry for interposing, but I think you're the one who's exuding "bullsh*t" here. Stefche is right, there's no such thing as Aussie Culture." You guys do have your own culture but it's just a mixture of cultures of many number of nations that made up Australia.

But it's still culture, even if it's a mix of other cultures. That's like saying English isn't a language because it's mix of other languages. It's still a language, isn't it?

Australian culture is not really it's own, it's like the sickly European child that was outcast and forced to grow up in the desert.
Australia seems like the ultimate hypocrisy to me, you talk about people not integrating when every single one of you is an immigrant, and not going back that far either.

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#54

Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:18 PM

QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 19:53)
QUOTE
meat pies, the English language, the Anglican church, AFL, rugby and cricket


You said this before. This is part of our culture. Beer, BBQ's, Aussie Rules Football etc. are other examples of our culture. Days like Australia Day and AFL Grand Final Day are great days to show our pride in our nation, drink some "grog" and have a BBQ.

• Although I don't mind indulging in a meat pie here or there, largely, I'd rather eat a kebab or a pizza than a meat pie, regardless of the weather.
• I speak English pretty well, though with a lot of my extended family I speak Serbian.
• I'm not a member of the Anglican church; I'm a non-practicing, secular member of the Orthodox Church.
• I love AFL (go the Tiges), rugby's kinda meh, cricket's crap, and all of them pale in comparison to "real" football (soccer) when it comes to my sporting tastes.
• Beer's alright, but I'd much rather drink whiskey.
• BBQs? Great, love 'em, but not exactly unique to Australia. Neither is the beach or sunny weather.
• I drive neither a Holden nor a Ford, and I don't endeavour on driving either one.

Look, I personally cover a few of the bases, but to some people I'd still fall into the category of "overtly cosmopolitan Wog" and, hell, to others I wouldn't be quite "Aussie" enough. But, however, I pay taxes, I study, I was born here, I enjoy living in this country but am also proud of my cultural and ethnic heritage, and am a full-paying member of one of the two largest political parties in this country. However, because cricket bores the sh*t out of me, I don't really like our accents, I'd drink whiskey over beer, I'd watch soccer over AFL, people don't know how to pronounce my surname without me correcting them, and I don't celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December, am I not Australiam enough? Should I be assimilated more? Am I failure of multiculturalism in your eyes?

Emhyr
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#55

Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:25 PM

I'm living in a partly muslim (democratic) country so it's not unusual for me to see covered women. Specifically women in hijab. But there are minority of women who wears burka and I don't feel comfortable next to them, not even other Muslims do, because it's not our tradition to wear burka ... people often mix that up with hijab and I can understand that. However, as an ex-muslim I can tell that muslim women in my country wears hijab with their free will, no one forcing them to wear it. My opinion on hijab? Well, let them wear whatever they want, yeah I'll agree with you... it's not nice to see it on street, but I don't think that fashion police should intervene. After all...that's the point of democracy and freedom... if it doesn't hurt anyone...it's okay. ph34r.gif

I think more important issue is how other religions or atheists have been treated in coutries under Sharia law. We should try doing more on that subject.

KaRzY6
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#56

Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:05 AM

QUOTE (Stefche @ Thursday, Jul 11 2013, 23:18)
QUOTE (KaRzY6 @ Wednesday, Jul 10 2013, 19:53)
QUOTE
meat pies, the English language, the Anglican church, AFL, rugby and cricket


You said this before. This is part of our culture. Beer, BBQ's, Aussie Rules Football etc. are other examples of our culture. Days like Australia Day and AFL Grand Final Day are great days to show our pride in our nation, drink some "grog" and have a BBQ.

• Although I don't mind indulging in a meat pie here or there, largely, I'd rather eat a kebab or a pizza than a meat pie, regardless of the weather.
• I speak English pretty well, though with a lot of my extended family I speak Serbian.
• I'm not a member of the Anglican church; I'm a non-practicing, secular member of the Orthodox Church.
• I love AFL (go the Tiges), rugby's kinda meh, cricket's crap, and all of them pale in comparison to "real" football (soccer) when it comes to my sporting tastes.
• Beer's alright, but I'd much rather drink whiskey.
• BBQs? Great, love 'em, but not exactly unique to Australia. Neither is the beach or sunny weather.
• I drive neither a Holden nor a Ford, and I don't endeavour on driving either one.

Look, I personally cover a few of the bases, but to some people I'd still fall into the category of "overtly cosmopolitan Wog" and, hell, to others I wouldn't be quite "Aussie" enough. But, however, I pay taxes, I study, I was born here, I enjoy living in this country but am also proud of my cultural and ethnic heritage, and am a full-paying member of one of the two largest political parties in this country. However, because cricket bores the sh*t out of me, I don't really like our accents, I'd drink whiskey over beer, I'd watch soccer over AFL, people don't know how to pronounce my surname without me correcting them, and I don't celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December, am I not Australiam enough? Should I be assimilated more? Am I failure of multiculturalism in your eyes?

There your personally opinions, and I respect that. I'm not really good at debating, so I'm not good with my wording etc. But these are a few examples of "Multiculturalism is a failure":

http://www.prophecyn...ml#.Ud97SPnX_kE

http://www.dailymail...s-Crusades.html

http://www.cbssports...l/story/6498949

http://gawker.com/te...wield-509321352

http://www.thelocal.se/48514/20130615/

http://www.cbn.com/c...ng-to-the-west/

http://www.gatestone...es-into-mosques

sivispacem
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#57

Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:05 AM

You are aware you've just posted a load of comment articles which display nothing other than the opinions of their author? And that several of them- including the first- aren't actually true?

Melchior
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#58

Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:04 AM

You haven't explained why multiculturalism is a failure. Even if those articles weren't bunk, you can't compare Europe to Australia. Now I'm not saying Australia doesn't have a culture, but you can't compare a few decades of meat pies, beaches and barbecues to a continent that has millennia of common history and centuries of ethnic, religious, genetic and cultural homogeneity.

I don't know what insulated part of Australia you live in, but here in Sydney we seem to be doing multiculturalism right, by and large. I couldn't imagine Australia only being made up of blonde haired, British-descended Christians barbecuing with beers at the beach or whatever warped idea of Australian culture you have. I've always been surrounded by all manner of backgrounds and I've never noticed any failures of multiculturalism.

KaRzY6
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#59

Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:46 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Friday, Jul 12 2013, 19:04)
I couldn't imagine Australia only being made up of blonde haired, British-descended Christians barbecuing with beers at the beach or whatever warped idea of Australian culture you have.

Do you think am a white supremacist or something? I cleanly stated before I'm all for a multi-ethnic nation. I have friends from Arab descent, Sudan, Malaysia and other non-white places. It's a great example of multi-ethnicity. If it wasn't for their skin colour, you wouldn't even tell they weren't Australian. They act like any other one of my white friends, there's no difference.

Btw, this is more how I picture Australia.


Haha, that video makes me laugh every time.


sivispacem
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#60

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

Can you do us all a favour and explain what parts of cultural hegemony and exclusionism you think are good things, and for that matter why pan-culturalism and multiculturalism are inherently negative? I personally don't believe there's a legitimate argument against multiculturalism which doesn't boil down to "I'm a bigot who believes my personal subjective interpretation of what my national identity means is both factually correct and empirically superior to anyone else's".




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