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What's your opinion on Hijab?

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Zizo.
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#1

Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:07 PM

I live in a muslim country (Tunisia), and ever since the so called "Revolution" went down, these jihadists and exteremtists started appearing in huge numbers, that includes women wearing hijab, at times it's scary, as if they're ghosts or something, i personaly don't like it, i googled it up for any fallacies or arguments against it, i didn't find anything big, just that women wear it to please "God" obey him and so men don't see them as sex objects. Here's what i found:

QUOTE (Islam Women site)
Why She Won't Wear Hijab!
A Discussion by A.Q. Alidost

A conversation for Muslim sisters:

"I'm so tired."

"Tired of what?"

"Of all these people judging me."

"Who judged you?"

"Like that woman, every time I sit with her, she tells me to wear hijab."

"Oh, hijab and music! The mother of all topics!"

"Yeah! I listen to music without hijab... haha!"

"Maybe she was just giving you advice."

"I don't need her advice. I know my religion. Can't she mind her own business?"

"Maybe you misunderstood. She was just being nice."

"Keeping out of my business, that would be nice..."

"But it's her duty to encourage you do to good."

"Trust me. That was no encouragement. And what do you mean 'good'?"

"Well, wearing hijab, that would be a good thing to do."

"Says who?"

"It's in the Quran, isn't it?"

"Yes. She did quote me something."

"She said Surah Nur, and other places of the Quran."

"Yes, but it's not a big sin anyway. Helping people and praying is more important."

"True. But big things start with small things."

"That's a good point, but what you wear is not important. What's important is to have a good healthy heart."

"What you wear is not important?"

"That's what I said."

"Then why do you spend an hour every morning fixing up?"

"What do you mean?"

"You spend money on cosmetics, not to mention all the time you spend on fixing your hair and low-carb dieting."

"So?"

"So, your appearance IS important."

"No. I said wearing hijab is not an important thing in religion."

"If it's not an important thing in religion, why is it mentioned in the Noble Quran?"

"You know I can't follow all that's in Quran."

"You mean God tells you something to do, you disobey and then it's OK?"

"Yes. God is forgiving."

"God is forgiving to those who repent and do not repeat their mistakes."

"Says who?"

"Says the same book that tells you to cover."

"But I don't like hijab, it limits my freedom."

"But the lotions, lipsticks, mascara and other cosmetics set you free?!
What's your definition of freedom anyway?"

"Freedom is in doing whatever you like to do."

"No. Freedom is in doing the right thing, not in doing whatever we wish to do."

"Look! I've seen so many people who don't wear hijab and are nice people, and so many who wear hijab and are bad people."

"So what? There are people who are nice to you but are alcoholic. Should we all be alcoholics? You made a stupid point."

"I don't want to be an extremist or a fanatic. I'm OK the way I am without hijab."

"Then you are a secular fanatic. An extremist in disobeying God."

"You don't get it, if I wear hijab, who would marry me?!"

"So all these people with hijab never get married?!"

"Okay! What if I get married and my husband doesn't like it? And wants me to remove it?"

"What if your husband wants you to go out with him on a bank robbery?!"

"That's irrelevant, bank robbery is a crime."

"Disobeying your Creator is not a crime?"

"But then who would hire me?"

"A company that respects people for who they are."

"Not after 9-11"

Yes. After 9-11. Don't you know about Hanan who just got into med school?
And the other one, what was her name, the girl who always wore a white hijab... ummm..."

"Yasmin?"

"Yes. Yasmin. She just finished her MBA and is now interning for GE."

"Why do you reduce religion to a piece of cloth anyway?"

"Why do you reduce womanhood to high heals and lipstick colors?"

"You didn't answer my question."

"In fact, I did. Hijab is not just a piece of cloth. It is obeying God in a difficult environment. It is courage, faith in action, and true womanhood.
But your short sleeves, tight pants..."

"That's called 'fashion', you live in a cave or something? First of all, hijab was founded by men who wanted to control women."

"Really? I did not know men could control women by hijab."

"Yes. That's what it is."

"What about the women who fight their husbands to wear hijab? And women in France who are forced to remove their hijab by men? What do you say about that?"

"Well, that's different."

"What difference? The woman who asked you to wear hijab... she was a woman, right?"

"Right, but..."

"But fashions that are designed and promoted by male-dominated corporations, set you free? Men have no control on exposing women and using them as a commodity?! Give me a break!"

"Wait, let me finish, I was saying..."

"Saying what? You think that men control women by hijab?"

"Yes."

"Specifically how?"

"By telling women how and what to wear, dummy!"

"Doesn't TV, magazines and movies tell you what to wear, and how to be 'attractive'?"

"Of course, it's fashion."

"Isn't that control? Pressuring you to wear what they want you to wear?"

[Silence]

"Not just controlling you, but also controlling the market."

"What do you mean?"

"I mean, you are told to look skinny and anorexic like that woman on the cover of the magazine, by men who design those magazines and sell those products."

"I don't get it. What does hijab have to do with products."

"It has everything to do with that. Don't you see? Hijab is a threat to consumerism, women who spend billions of dollars to look skinny and live by standards of fashion designed by men... and then here is Islam, saying trash all that nonsense and focus on your soul, not on your looks, and do not worry what men think of your looks."

"Like I don't have to buy hijab? Isn't hijab a product?"

"Yes, it is. It is a product that sets you free from male-dominated consumerism."

"Stop lecturing me! I WILL NOT WEAR HIJAB!

It is awkward, outdated, and totally not suitable for this society... Moreover, I am only 20 and too young to wear hijab!"

"Fine. Say that to your Lord, when you face Him on Judgment Day."

"Fine."

"Fine."

[Silence]

"Shut up and I don't want to hear more about hijab niqab schmijab Punjab!"

[Silence]

She stared at the mirror, tired of arguing with herself all this time.

Successful enough, she managed to shut the voices in her head, with her own opinions triumphant in victory on the matter, and a final modern decision accepted by the society - but rejected by the Faith:

QUOTE
"Why do Muslim women have to cover their heads?" This question is one which is asked by Muslim and non-Muslim alike. For many women it is the truest test of being a Muslim.

The answer to the question is very simple - Muslim women observe HIJAB (covering the head and the body) because Allah has told them to do so.

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." [Noble Quran 33:59]

Other secondary reasons include the requirement for modesty in both men and women. Both will then be evaluated for intelligence and skills instead of looks and sexuality. An Iranian school girl is quoted as saying, "We want to stop men from treating us like sex objects, as they have always done. We want them to ignore our appearance and to be attentive to our personalities and mind. We want them to take us seriously and treat us as equals and not just chase us around for our bodies and physical looks." A Muslim woman who covers her head is making a statement about her identity. Anyone who sees her will know that she is a Muslim and has a good moral character. Many Muslim women who cover are filled with dignity and self esteem; they are pleased to be identified as a Muslim woman. As a chaste, modest, pure woman, she does not want her sexuality to enter into interactions with men in the smallest degree. A woman who covers herself is concealing her sexuality but allowing her femininity to be brought out.

This is what i found on the internet. I dislike it, and since it's becoming a big deal in my country, i definetly need some basic arguments on the point. Besides that, what is your view about it?

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#2

Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:02 PM

Let's look beyond the point that women not being objectified is a good thing, but rather towards the fact that these people mask their faces for a God they have not and shall never meet. People can dress in anyway they please, however, when they dress in such a way for them to be above objectification they become more prone to it.

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#3

Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:42 PM

Veiling does not even appear in the Qur'an, it originated during the Persian Empire I believe as a social control thing... I mean if a woman believes in it and wants to veil herself then good for her. This idea that it needs to be forced on people to ensure decency is ridiculous.

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#4

Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:18 AM

That's one thing I never saw a problem with.

At first I used to think it was strange but when I heard the explanation of it being used so women aren't judged by their body but rather their personality I actually approve of it. Overall it seems it would result in a less shallow society.

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#5

Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:11 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Monday, May 13 2013, 09:42)
Veiling does not even appear in the Qur'an, it originated during the Persian Empire I believe as a social control thing... I mean if a woman believes in it and wants to veil herself then good for her. This idea that it needs to be forced on people to ensure decency is ridiculous.

I believe it had something to do with not appearing attractive to men so as not to be raped (and rape back then meant instant marriage) and it's kind of survived as a tradition. Though in its current form it's definitely a tool of subjugation.

It's particularly harmful in the west because we're so focused on looks. You can't be a real estate agent or work in customer service or really have any kind of career if you're wearing a sheet over your head.

QUOTE (GMS)
At first I used to think it was strange but when I heard the explanation of it being used so women aren't judged by their body but rather their personality I actually approve of it.

Yeah like that's really the reasoning behind it. "Look dear, you'll never get anywhere in this world if people think you have nice hair."

QUOTE
Overall it seems it would result in a less shallow society.

So if women don't want to be objectified, they should cover themselves up? That really is on par with rape apologism.

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#6

Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Sunday, May 12 2013, 23:11)
QUOTE (GMS)
At first I used to think it was strange but when I heard the explanation of it being used so women aren't judged by their body but rather their personality I actually approve of it.

Yeah like that's really the reasoning behind it. "Look dear, you'll never get anywhere in this world if people think you have nice hair."


I've seen videos of where the women say this themselves. They say it makes them not feel like sex objects and liked for their personality not how slutty they can dress.

QUOTE (Melchior @ Sunday, May 12 2013, 23:11)
QUOTE
Overall it seems it would result in a less shallow society.

So if women don't want to be objectified, they should cover themselves up? That really is on par with rape apologism.


What? How in the world do come to that comparison..? lol It's their own choice to dress in that way, who are you to say they shouldn't or that it is in any way even vaguely related to rape apologism?

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#7

Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:26 AM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Monday, May 13 2013, 20:16)
They say it makes them not feel like sex objects and liked for their personality not how slutty they can dress.

And you think they came to that conclusion on their own? Or do you think they had it pounded into them at birth?

QUOTE
What? How in the world do come to that comparison..?

Because you are saying women should stop themselves from being seen as attractive if they don't want to be objectified. If you don't immediately think of the "she was asking for it, look at the short skirt!" rape defense, then I don't know what to say.

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#8

Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 13 2013, 02:26)
QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Monday, May 13 2013, 20:16)
They say it makes them not feel like sex objects and liked for their personality not how slutty they can dress.

And you think they came to that conclusion on their own? Or do you think they had it pounded into them at birth?


They probably came to that conclusion through experience and watching western television and by seeing how we turn women into sex objects.
Physical attraction only plays a small role overall in love compared to the actual connection between two people. Beauty fades with age, it's the chemistry between the two that truly lasts.


QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 13 2013, 02:26)
QUOTE
What? How in the world do come to that comparison..?

Because you are saying women should stop themselves from being seen as attractive if they don't want to be objectified. If you don't immediately think of the "she was asking for it, look at the short skirt!" rape defense, then I don't know what to say.



What's with you and your obsession over rape...? This is over love and being judged by personality and intellect, not by sexuality or looks.

You really should do some research or critical reasoning to figure out on your own why using people is morally wrong.

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#9

Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:43 AM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Monday, May 13 2013, 20:39)
Physical attraction only plays a small role overall in love compared to the actual connection between two people. Beauty fades with age, it's the chemistry between the two that truly lasts.

Yes because having a nice appearance is only for attracting men. sarcasm.gif

QUOTE
What's with you and your obsession over rape...? This is over love and being judged by personality and intellect, not by sexuality or looks.

You really should do some research or critical reasoning to figure out on your own why using people is morally wrong.

None of this makes any sense in the context of your response. You should make more of an effort to understand what's being posited to you before baffling me with random, nonsensical replies.

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#10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:07 AM Edited by GrandMaster Smith, 13 May 2013 - 11:19 AM.

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 13 2013, 02:43)
QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Monday, May 13 2013, 20:39)
Physical attraction only plays a small role overall in love compared to the actual connection between two people. Beauty fades with age, it's the chemistry between the two that truly lasts.

Yes because having a nice appearance is only for attracting men. sarcasm.gif


Name one thing an attractive woman can do that a covered woman cannot.

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 13 2013, 02:43)
QUOTE
What's with you and your obsession over rape...? This is over love and being judged by personality and intellect, not by sexuality or looks.

You really should do some research or critical reasoning to figure out on your own why using people is morally wrong.

None of this makes any sense in the context of your response. You should make more of an effort to understand what's being posited to you before baffling me with random, nonsensical replies.


You're claiming women covering themselves is to avoid being raped.. while that may possibly play an insignificant role for some, the majority do it simply to be treated equally.

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#11

Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:44 AM

No, he said that women covered themselves up historically to avoid being raped and that is where the tradition arose.

QUOTE

They probably came to that conclusion through experience and watching western television and by seeing how we turn women into sex objects.
Physical attraction only plays a small role overall in love compared to the actual connection between two people. Beauty fades with age, it's the chemistry between the two that truly lasts.

I really doubt that this is something women in these oppressive countries are waking up and deciding on their own. In fact the idea that they turn on western television and thus decide to veil themselves is frankly stupid.

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#12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:56 AM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Monday, May 13 2013, 21:07)
Name one thing an attractive woman can do that a covered woman cannot.

I'll name several: Succeed in sales or business, charm and/or endear people, attract people for casual sex and of course, derive confidence from their appearance.

QUOTE
You're claiming women covering themselves is to avoid being raped..

No, historically that was the case. The comparison to rape is based around the fact that you're essentially putting the onus on the women to avoid being objectified. I'm not really sure how I can make it much clearer.

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#13

Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

As i was circling around the internet. Some of the arguments were either it's fully covered = respected and has personality, or a looking like a whore, as if Hijab is the only respecting clothing for women. Others say it's because "God" told women to do so (They also say this when they lose all of the logical arguments), without questioning the reason for that.

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#14

Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:29 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 13 2013, 03:56)
QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Monday, May 13 2013, 21:07)
Name one thing an attractive woman can do that a covered woman cannot.

I'll name several: Succeed in sales or business, charm and/or endear people, attract people for casual sex and of course, derive confidence from their appearance.


You don't have to be good looking to sell a product, charm can come from speech/intellect and eye contact alone, they're obviously not looking for casual sex and these women report a boost in confidence and self esteem through being judged by personality and intelligence alone.

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 13 2013, 03:56)
QUOTE
You're claiming women covering themselves is to avoid being raped..

No, historically that was the case. The comparison to rape is based around the fact that you're essentially putting the onus on the women to avoid being objectified. I'm not really sure how I can make it much clearer.


If they feel that's what it takes and they're happy doing it then what's the issue?

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#15

Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

GMS, all of your points seem to stem from the delusion that every woman who covers herself, decides to rationally and of her own free will.

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#16

Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:34 PM

Because I believe nearly all human beings, no matter what region you're born into is capable of critical thinking.

No doubt this tradition was fed through their culture, but just the same as how you've been bred by your culture to feel that if a pretty woman is holding a product you're more prone to buy it than if an ugly woman were to be holding it, despite the actual quality of the product itself.

Everybody is a product of their surroundings, upbringing, culture and traditions, but these women's practices and beliefs are logically justifiable so I have no real objection to it.

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#17

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:33 PM Edited by Zizo008, 13 May 2013 - 09:28 PM.

Most of them wear it because they were forced to, infact it's a pretty knowing issue in the Middle East and alot of women are fighting for their right to it. Did you see Saudi Arabia? They treat women like sh*t, again, one of the reasons i'm no longer a muslim. Just check this:
QUOTE
Women in Saudi Arabia are still banned from driving cars (among other things), but the kingdom’s religious police are now allowing them to ride motorbikes and bicycles in certain parks and recreational areas. The catch? A male relative or guardian must accompany women riders, according to Saudi news outlet Al-Yawm.

QUOTE
In 2007, a young woman was murdered by her father for chatting with a man on Facebook. The case attracted a lot of media attention. Conservatives called for the government to ban Facebook, because it incites lust and causes social strife by encouraging gender mingling.

QUOTE
All females must have a male guardian, typically a father, brother or husband.

QUOTE
Among non-mahram men, women must cover the parts of the body that are awrah (not meant to be exposed). In much of Islam, a women's face is not considered awrah. In Saudi Arabia and some other Arab states, all of the body is considered awrah except the hands and eyes. Accordingly, most women are expected wear the hijab (head covering), a full black cloak called an abaya, and a face-veil called niqab.


user posted image

I don't see much of freewill here. For more check Wikipedia's Women's rights in Saudi Arabia

EDIT: Since alot of view are living in European/Western countries, Hijab is not that often to see, but i want to ask, what degree do you see women wearing it?

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#18

Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:42 AM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Tuesday, May 14 2013, 00:34)
Because I believe nearly all human beings, no matter what region you're born into is capable of critical thinking.

No doubt this tradition was fed through their culture, but just the same as how you've been bred by your culture to feel that if a pretty woman is holding a product you're more prone to buy it than if an ugly woman were to be holding it, despite the actual quality of the product itself.

Everybody is a product of their surroundings, upbringing, culture and traditions, but these women's practices and beliefs are logically justifiable so I have no real objection to it.

Tell me then, how many young professionals have you seen wearing a hijab?

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#19

Posted 18 May 2013 - 11:50 PM

The Hijab is something degrading and retrograde. The woman is not an object. And a country quite progressive like it's Tunisia shouldn't let those radicals take the control and impose their bullsh*t, killing the revolution.

I am not muslim, in fact I don't follow any kind of religion, but I've heard many of the moral and religious principles these extremist are insterting in the society and people minds are not even in the Koran.

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#20

Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:54 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, May 12 2013, 23:42)
Veiling does not even appear in the Qur'an, it originated during the Persian Empire I believe as a social control thing... I mean if a woman believes in it and wants to veil herself then good for her. This idea that it needs to be forced on people to ensure decency is ridiculous.

That is basically how I feel about this. Let women wear Hijab if they want to, but don't force those that don't to wear it.

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#21

Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:29 AM

QUOTE (Gtaghost22 @ Sunday, May 19 2013, 04:54)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, May 12 2013, 23:42)
Veiling does not even appear in the Qur'an, it originated during the Persian Empire I believe as a social control thing... I mean if a woman believes in it and wants to veil herself then good for her. This idea that it needs to be forced on people to ensure decency is ridiculous.

That is basically how I feel about this. Let women wear Hijab if they want to, but don't force those that don't to wear it.

The problem is that the only reason they have any desire to wear it is societal conditioning. They do so because the religious indoctrination of misogyny has enforced the idea that they should wear it, or at least cover themselves. I'd have no objection to it if wearing it was truly voluntary and personal decision but even if you ignore the direct influences of other individuals you still have generations of societal conditioning to contend with. Therefore it isn't really a free decision they've made.
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#22

Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:45 AM Edited by Mm9090, 30 June 2013 - 12:52 AM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, May 19 2013, 09:29)
QUOTE (Gtaghost22 @ Sunday, May 19 2013, 04:54)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, May 12 2013, 23:42)
Veiling does not even appear in the Qur'an, it originated during the Persian Empire I believe as a social control thing... I mean if a woman believes in it and wants to veil herself then good for her. This idea that it needs to be forced on people to ensure decency is ridiculous.

That is basically how I feel about this. Let women wear Hijab if they want to, but don't force those that don't to wear it.

The problem is that the only reason they have any desire to wear it is societal conditioning. They do so because the religious indoctrination of misogyny has enforced the idea that they should wear it, or at least cover themselves. I'd have no objection to it if wearing it was truly voluntary and personal decision but even if you ignore the direct influences of other individuals you still have generations of societal conditioning to contend with. Therefore it isn't really a free decision they've made.

Bullsh*t. You can't make generalizations like that.

I dated a Muslim girl once, she didn't wear a hijab and her family put no pressure on her to do so. Her mother, however, does wear a hijab. I spoke to her about it, she told me how it was her decision. Before she never used to wear one, like her daughter, but later decided to start wearing one during university. She said she had no pressure from her family or religious groups down here. Hell, most Muslim women in South Africa don't wear a hijab from what I've seen. If anything Muslim women here are pressured into NOT wearing a hijab by modern fashion. She told me how she realised the beauty in it one day and felt that it brought her closer to God when she wore it. Nothing about not wanting to be objectified or whatever.

It was completely her free choice to wear a hijab. Just as it was her daughter's free choice to choose not to. Why do you believe that it can't be so? How is it any different to a woman choosing not to wear one?

@Melchior This woman I've mentioned is a highly successful and well respected lawyer. Achieved all while wearing a hijab.

Related yet unrelated: Some of those saleswomen who wear hijabs in Dubai airport are quite pretty blush.gif It's possible to find a face attractive, even if the hair is covered.

I think a lot of you are making judgment calls about cultures you've never been exposed to. I know many of you in the western world have probably never even spoken to a Muslim person. Down here we have the privilege (it is a privilege, really) of living in a highly multicultural society. Growing up with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc together and all getting along. It's actually ridiculous when you read stories in the media about a certain religion and you know it's all bullsh*t because your best mate is practicing that very religion. People will constantly mistake something that is Arab culture to be part of Islam, for example. Never confuse culture and religion. An Indian guy from my old school was very proud of his heritage. If you went to his house you'd immediately think he was Hindu, I did. I thought that until I saw the cross over his bed.

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#23

Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:00 AM Edited by rudy., 30 June 2013 - 03:13 AM.

The thing is, Mm9090, you're talking about the minority here. How about you venture into countries where Muslim is the most widely practised religion and ask women wearing hijabs there? Most of the Muslim women wearing hijabs are forced to do so by their family leaders or their parents.

The reason your girlfriend didn't wear hijabs is because her parents were less-strict and the country where you live in is Africa.

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#24

Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:48 AM

QUOTE (Mm9090 @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 10:45)
I think a lot of you are making judgment calls about cultures you've never been exposed to. I know many of you in the western world have probably never even spoken to a Muslim person. Down here we have the privilege (it is a privilege, really) of living in a highly multicultural society. Growing up with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc together and all getting along. It's actually ridiculous when you read stories in the media about a certain religion and you know it's all bullsh*t because your best mate is practicing that very religion. People will constantly mistake something that is Arab culture to be part of Islam, for example. Never confuse culture and religion. An Indian guy from my old school was very proud of his heritage. If you went to his house you'd immediately think he was Hindu, I did. I thought that until I saw the cross over his bed.

South Africa is multicultural, yet the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and Australia aren't?

Also, although I largely agree with you in that the voluntary choices of Muslim women, especially those living in a diaspora in a Western culture, should be respected, I think you're missing sivispacem's point, which primarily concerns the history of the hijab and, as rudy touched on, the role it plays in homogenous, religious Islamic societies such as Saudi Arabi. Do you actually genuinely believe that in those countries every single woman who wears a hijab wears one because they voluntarily chose to do so, without any pressure from their male relatives, their local culture, and the religious authorities (who they also place great respect in) of their community?

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#25

Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:16 AM Edited by sivispacem, 30 June 2013 - 07:19 AM.

QUOTE (Stefche @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 06:48)
QUOTE (Mm9090 @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 10:45)
I think a lot of you are making judgment calls about cultures you've never been exposed to. I know many of you in the western world have probably never even spoken to a Muslim person. Down here we have the privilege (it is a privilege, really) of living in a highly multicultural society. Growing up with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc together and all getting along. It's actually ridiculous when you read stories in the media about a certain religion and you know it's all bullsh*t because your best mate is practicing that very religion. People will constantly mistake something that is Arab culture to be part of Islam, for example. Never confuse culture and religion. An Indian guy from my old school was very proud of his heritage. If you went to his house you'd immediately think he was Hindu, I did. I thought that until I saw the cross over his bed.

South Africa is multicultural, yet the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and Australia aren't?

Also, although I largely agree with you in that the voluntary choices of Muslim women, especially those living in a diaspora in a Western culture, should be respected, I think you're missing sivispacem's point, which primarily concerns the history of the hijab and, as rudy touched on, the role it plays in homogenous, religious Islamic societies such as Saudi Arabi. Do you actually genuinely believe that in those countries every single woman who wears a hijab wears one because they voluntarily chose to do so, without any pressure from their male relatives, their local culture, and the religious authorities (who they also place great respect in) of their community?

I started formulating a response, but you've said it better than I can. Mm9090, whilst your personal anecdote is very nice, it doesn't really contest the point I'm making, which is the many -nay, most- women who wear the Hijab do not do so voluntarily, and many of those who claim to wear it voluntarily in fact do so because centuries of religious indoctrination and subjugation of women has engrained it so deeply in their religious and social psyche that it would be impossible to make a purely subjective, individual and independent judgement. I'm not making the argument that women's choices on whether or not to wear the Hijab are entirely involuntary, but pointing out that the claims from some that their decisions to wear is are personal may it actual fact not be the case, due to the impact of misogyny enshrined in historic socio-religious culture.

Also, "making judgement calls on cultures I've never been exposed to"? Don't make me laugh.

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#26

Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:56 AM

The only justifications I've heard for Hijab are 1. Preventing rape and other adverse effects of sexual attraction and 2. Religion

In regards to 1:

I'm sure women have been raped because others found them attractive, however Hijab is an overly broad and intrusive way of dealing with this problem. Furthermore, this division based on sex alone fosters negative attitudes towards women that exacerbate the issue. In regards to other adverse effects of sexual attraction, it is also cynical to believe that a male would be incapable of being a productive member of society when surrounded by reasonably clothed females.

In regards to 2:

No government should be governed by religion. Any legal mandate for Hijab would be a symptom of a unified church and state. However, as discussed previously, sometimes the reasons for women dressed in Hijab are cultural- not legal. In this case, the culture should progress to the point where such a style is not expected of all females. I don't know how such a progression would begin, but it would be a desirable progression.

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#27

Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:17 AM

Down here in the midlands of the UK, it would appear that Islam is a religion and community that is vastly spreading. I'd agree with sivispacem that's it's an indoctrination down here. Of course, in some areas, where a Hijab is an optional preference it's not such an issue, but there are places that violently enforce them and I've seen that violence firsthand. The basis of the Hijab, and its origins in such places as Saudi Arab are the embodiment of mass control and physical domination of women and that's based not just on observation but history also. I believe that you're not wrong Mm9090, but the fact you've been around such a less pragmatic Muslim family must have meant you've met the minority of the religion that doesn't indoctrinate, censor, or condone violence in their means, because a large portion of it does.

As for my own opinion, I find them to be an outdated device. I can understand the religious need for them, but it has morphed from such a concept of belief into one of gender-control. The more I look at Islam as a whole, I start to see the cracks behind what exactly women get with that sort of belief.

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#28

Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:59 AM Edited by Mm9090, 30 June 2013 - 12:07 PM.

I agree with you that in Middle Eastern countries most women are definitely forced to wear hijab and that is why they wear it. However, if they weren't forced to I am sure that many still would out of their own free will. I was responding to your statement which implied that this applies to all Muslim women, which, from my own experience, isn't true.

I can't really remember what my ex-girlfriend's mother said about hijab, but I seem to remember that she said it wasn't compulsory and that your heart has to want to do it or something along those lines.

I definitely can't debate the history of the hijab, frankly I know nothing about that. I only know how it fits into modern Islamic culture in South Africa.

@Stefche those countries definitely have many different cultures, but again, from my experience, it's far more voluntarily segregated. People of different faiths will stick to their groups and never interact. All they'll know about their "neighbours" is from what they read in the media. It's why looney hate groups like the EDL gain such popularity, to them all Muslims are terrorists out to enforce Sharia law. By that logic I've got to make sure my best mate doesn't strap a bomb to my chest lol.gif None of their followers have ever met a Muslim person, they wouldn't be in the EDL if they met the average non-psycho Muslim.
So while there are many cultures in the same place they're not truly "multicultural."

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#29

Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

Most of what I would add has already been said. If a woman decides to cover up, that is fine; I can appreciate the logic and she should receive no harassment for doing so.

I would like to put a question those who feel veiling is a largely/wholly misogynistic, repressive institution. What, if anything, ought to be done about it?

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#30

Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Straznicy @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 19:11)
Most of what I would add has already been said. If a woman decides to cover up, that is fine; I can appreciate the logic and she should receive no harassment for doing so.

I would like to put a question those who feel veiling is a largely/wholly misogynistic, repressive institution. What, if anything, ought to be done about it?

There's not much you can do: Educate, empower and leave. If you impose a restriction people resist, so the best tactic is to just let not wearing hijab/niqab filter in and slowly it'll fade out.

It's happening where I live (a very diverse area) already!




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