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Affirmative Action

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Mr.Mordecai
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#1

Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:17 PM Edited by Mr.Mordecai, 06 May 2013 - 09:20 PM.

Ok, so today in English, a couple kids debated on some issues, and an interesting one came up. Affirmative Action. For those who don't know what it is, it's where minorities have a better chance at getting into schools and good jobs, but some deem it as "unfair"

As a black man well teenager I'm biased towards it a little bit because I have an advantage, and the fact that minorities in America has been through some sh*t, but I can see how some could call it unfair, but my question is, Is it really?

Melchior
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#2

Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:21 PM

No, it isn't unfair, because studies have shown time and time again that ethnic minorities are discriminated against, even if they are perfectly qualified. AA just levels the playing field somewhat.

Also, you don't have an advantage. Odds are you are still considerably disadvantaged even with AA.

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#3

Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:31 PM

From the 1980s:
A HR (Human Resource) game was played years ago, it might still be used:
1 point for being female.
1 point for being a Veteran. (Vets were moved to the top of the list, all things being equal.)
1 point for having a Spanish sounding name.
1 point for being a Negro.

-1 point for not finishing High School.
1 point for graduating College.

Being over qualified is a deterrent, as such people might leave.

The Scottish Guy
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#4

Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:29 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:21)
AA just levels the playing field somewhat.

So your solution to "leveling the playing fields", is to hand somebody an unfair advantage on a position based solely on skin colour qualification? It's people like you and your way of thinking that essentially have the potential of putting peoples lives at risk.

I sincerely hope you are not in a position of prominent authority.

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#5

Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai @ Monday, May 6 2013, 16:17)
Ok, so today in English, a couple kids debated on some issues, and an interesting one came up. Affirmative Action. For those who don't know what it is, it's where minorities have a better chance at getting into schools and good jobs, but some deem it as "unfair"

As a black man well teenager I'm biased towards it a little bit because I have an advantage, and the fact that minorities in America has been through some sh*t, but I can see how some could call it unfair, but my question is, Is it really?

It shouldn't be based on the color of people's skin, because to assume a black person is ALWAYS at a disadvantage is what I consider racist.

Melchior
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#6

Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (The Scottish Guy @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 08:29)
QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:21)
AA just levels the playing field somewhat.

So your solution to "leveling the playing fields", is to hand somebody an unfair advantage on a position based solely on skin colour qualification? It's people like you and your way of thinking that essentially have the potential of putting peoples lives at risk.

Yes, because white people already have an (arguably much greater) unfair advantage.

So what's your solution? Ignore the problem?

Mr.Mordecai
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#7

Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE (DarrinPA @ Monday, May 6 2013, 14:30)
QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai @ Monday, May 6 2013, 16:17)
Ok, so today in English, a couple kids debated on some issues, and an interesting one came up. Affirmative Action. For those who don't know what it is, it's where minorities have a better chance at getting into schools and good jobs, but some deem it as "unfair"

As a black man well teenager I'm biased towards it a little bit because I have an advantage, and the fact that minorities in America has been through some sh*t, but I can see how some could call it unfair, but my question is, Is it really?

It shouldn't be based on the color of people's skin, because to assume a black person is ALWAYS at a disadvantage is what I consider racist.

Yes it is unfair, yet it's also unfair that an employer would choose a John Smith over a Tyrone Williams.

The Scottish Guy
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#8

Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:01 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 6 2013, 22:37)
QUOTE (The Scottish Guy @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 08:29)
QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:21)
AA just levels the playing field somewhat.

So your solution to "leveling the playing fields", is to hand somebody an unfair advantage on a position based solely on skin colour qualification? It's people like you and your way of thinking that essentially have the potential of putting peoples lives at risk.

Yes, because white people already have an (arguably much greater) unfair advantage.

So what's your solution? Ignore the problem?

My solution? Give applicants who are more qualified and suited for the job, the job, regardless of skin colour. To think there is still this stigmata that blacks are singled out for positions of professional careers (quite the opposite, since AA was introduced) is nothing but opportunistic paranoia.

DarrinPA
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#9

Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:02 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai @ Monday, May 6 2013, 17:41)
QUOTE (DarrinPA @ Monday, May 6 2013, 14:30)
QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai @ Monday, May 6 2013, 16:17)
Ok, so today in English, a couple kids debated on some issues, and an interesting one came up. Affirmative Action. For those who don't know what it is, it's where minorities have a better chance at getting into schools and good jobs, but some deem it as "unfair"

As a black man well teenager I'm biased towards it a little bit because I have an advantage, and the fact that minorities in America has been through some sh*t, but I can see how some could call it unfair, but my question is, Is it really?

It shouldn't be based on the color of people's skin, because to assume a black person is ALWAYS at a disadvantage is what I consider racist.

Yes it is unfair, yet it's also unfair that an employer would choose a John Smith over a Tyrone Williams.

If it's based on their skin color, yes that too is unfair. But two wrongs don't make a right. I wish there was a better way, I truely do. As an underadvantanged person growing up I was discriminated against, just as much as my black brother* was. I lived the life that was on the same level of a poor discriminated black person would be. But because of my skin color I am held back by AA. But I know I'm a rare case and it does help a lot of people who are discriminated against. So while it hurts me, I see that it has a purpose. I just wish that they'd come up with a better system not based on the color of somebody's skin, but on the actual life they have had, wheither they were at an advantaged or not.


*Yes I truely do have a black brother. It's because we adopted him when his parents left him.

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#10

Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:08 PM

In Brazil, we have a similar thing put in place, but targeted at public school students, rather than any race/minority/color what have you, where a certain number of spots is reserved for them in the top public universities.

By itself it doesn't work, as most public school students end up struggling with the level of study and course material, and either end up dropping out or failing out, while at the same time they took the spot of someone who actually studied and prepared to be there.

The reason it doesn't work is that it does not level the playing field in any way, in fact it even creates resentment on the part of the other students and some employers, who see those who took those spots as being inferior, thus why they needed the spot in the first place. What really needs to be done is to treat the diseases, not the symptoms; that is, improve the education in public schools, to give them a better knowledge base upon which to stand and try things on their own. But then again, that sort of things takes years and years, and chances are whoever pushed for those things wouldn't be in office any more, so why bother?

As to the minorities affirmative action, my knowledge isn't much as it's not my country, but I'd say that the better course of action is to level the playfield by giving them proper quality of education/life/whate have you, rather than just an arbritrary advantage at some thing. Giving them "advantages" to bring them up to par with "the other classes" is, to me, bascially acknowledging that they are inferior.

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#11

Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:16 PM

QUOTE (Tchuck @ Monday, May 6 2013, 23:08)
As to the minorities affirmative action, my knowledge isn't much as it's not my country, but I'd say that the better course of action is to level the playfield by giving them proper quality of education/life/whate have you, rather than just an arbritrary advantage at some thing. Giving them "advantages" to bring them up to par with "the other classes" is, to me, bascially acknowledging that they are inferior.

icon14.gif

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#12

Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE (Tchuck @ Monday, May 6 2013, 20:08)
In Brazil, we have a similar thing put in place, but targeted at public school students, rather than any race/minority/color what have you, where a certain number of spots is reserved for them in the top public universities.

By itself it doesn't work, as most public school students end up struggling with the level of study and course material, and either end up dropping out or failing out, while at the same time they took the spot of someone who actually studied and prepared to be there.

The reason it doesn't work is that it does not level the playing field in any way, in fact it even creates resentment on the part of the other students and some employers, who see those who took those spots as being inferior, thus why they needed the spot in the first place. What really needs to be done is to treat the diseases, not the symptoms; that is, improve the education in public schools, to give them a better knowledge base upon which to stand and try things on their own. But then again, that sort of things takes years and years, and chances are whoever pushed for those things wouldn't be in office any more, so why bother?

Oddly enough, my friends in Brazil used to criticize AA because it f*cked them up when applying to universities... and they were rich white kids whose parents were Senators... but personally here's my opinion:

Is it unfair? Yes. Is it justifiable? Yes, due to disadvantages towards minorities throughout the 19th ad 20th centuries.

I believe affirmative action quotas can work for unskilled labour jobs, but when you're talking about an executive position then it's irrelevant since all candidates will have outstanding qualifications. In the example of Brazilian public universities, I believe AA should not be implemented, hence all students compete to be admitted to a certain university, however, I think government should open up scholarships so that minorities can compete with minorities and not jeopardize everyone else's admissions.

QUOTE
As to the minorities affirmative action, my knowledge isn't much as it's not my country, but I'd say that the better course of action is to level the playfield by giving them proper quality of education/life/whate have you, rather than just an arbritrary advantage at some thing. Giving them "advantages" to bring them up to par with "the other classes" is, to me, bascially acknowledging that they are inferior.


This.

xXGst0395Xx
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#13

Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:12 AM Edited by Gst0395, 07 May 2013 - 11:13 AM.

It probably should be about which individuals are qualified for the job, regardless of race.

Mr.Mordecai
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#14

Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:56 AM

QUOTE (Gst0395 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 16:12)
I probably should be about which individuals are qualified for the job, regardless of race.

If only it could be so simple. confused.gif

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#15

Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:56 AM Edited by gtamann123, 07 May 2013 - 01:02 AM.

Affirmative action makes no sense. How is discriminating against whites going to make up for past discriminations against blacks? You can't cure discrimination with more discrimination.

If blacks would stop crying for special treatment then maybe we could have some progress on race relations. Blacks wanting special treatment because of the color of their skin only angers whites even more and creates more racial tension. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have done more damage to the black community than the Ku Klux Klan ever did.

My uncle was once the fire chief of a decent sized suburb (70,000) people. It was an amazing job but he quit because he just got sick of affirmative action. He got sick if having to give jobs to the lesser qualified candidate because of the color of his skin. Affirmative action only leads to more racism and resentment amongst the races.

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#16

Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:24 AM

QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 00:56)
If blacks would stop crying for special treatment...

Narrow your criticisms my friend. I've never had anything handed to me and I've never asked for a handout. Never bitched about being less fortunate due to the color of my skin. Also if you think All Sharpton or Jesse Jackson have any pull whatsoever in the black community your kidding yourself. Everyone knows they are both jokes.

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#17

Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:28 AM

QUOTE (ryuclan @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 01:24)
QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 00:56)
If blacks would stop crying for special treatment...

Narrow your criticisms my friend. I've never had anything handed to me and I've never asked for a handout. Never bitched about being less fortunate due to the color of my skin. Also if you think All Sharpton or Jesse Jackson have any pull whatsoever in the black community your kidding yourself. Everyone knows they are both jokes.

Okay "some blacks crying for special treatment" and I didn't say they had any pull in the black community I just said they have done damage to the image of the black community as a whole with what they have said and done. They have basically perpetuated the stereotype of blacks being nothing but lazy people who want special treatment and handouts. While there are people like that in the black community not all are like that but the damage has already been done in how whites perceive blacks.

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#18

Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:30 AM

QUOTE (ryuclan @ Monday, May 6 2013, 20:24)
Also if you think All Sharpton or Jesse Jackson have any pull whatsoever in the black community your kidding yourself. Everyone knows they are both jokes.

Now, yes. But Jesse Jackson did have quite a lot of pull back in the day. He still does in a smaller sense here in Chicago. No comment on Al Sharpton. moto_whistle.gif

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#19

Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:34 AM

QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:28)
Okay "some blacks crying for special treatment" and I didn't say they had any pull in the black community I just said they have done damage to the image of the black community as a whole with what they have said and done.

Are there black people in Minnesota?

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#20

Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:46 AM

QUOTE (trip @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 01:34)
QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:28)
Okay "some blacks crying for special treatment" and I didn't say they had any pull in the black community I just said they have done damage to the image of the black community as a whole with what they have said and done.

Are there black people in Minnesota?

I got to a school that's majority black. And I live in a majority black neighborhood. (Poor inner ring suburb 5 minutes from the heart of north Minneapolis)

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#21

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:01 AM

QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:46)
QUOTE (trip @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 01:34)
QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:28)
Okay "some blacks crying for special treatment" and I didn't say they had any pull in the black community I just said they have done damage to the image of the black community as a whole with what they have said and done.

Are there black people in Minnesota?

I got to a school that's majority black. And I live in a majority black neighborhood. (Poor inner ring suburb 5 minutes from the heart of north Minneapolis)

Magnet school? Or do you also live in a predominantly black neighborhood? I'm not trying to be a dick - honest...it would just seem more like you to defend your black friends than to say they were crying for special treatment.

Not that it matters, but for the record: I'm a white dude that just so happens to live in a very(used to be) black park of town and works for a very African American dominated local government. Direct quote from our last mayor "The brotha's and sista's run this town".



To kind of stay on topic. I don't really mind some affirmative action. Although, in today's day and age I think the term 'affirmative action' might need to be moved around and not necessarily be focused on black Americans as much as it once was.


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#22

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:06 AM

QUOTE (trip @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 02:01)
QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:46)
QUOTE (trip @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 01:34)
QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 21:28)
Okay "some blacks crying for special treatment" and I didn't say they had any pull in the black community I just said they have done damage to the image of the black community as a whole with what they have said and done.

Are there black people in Minnesota?

I got to a school that's majority black. And I live in a majority black neighborhood. (Poor inner ring suburb 5 minutes from the heart of north Minneapolis)

Magnet school? Or do you also live in a predominantly black neighborhood? I'm not trying to be a dick - honest...it would just seem more like you to defend your black friends than to say they were crying for special treatment.

Not that it matters, but for the record: I'm a white dude that just so happens to live in a very(used to be) black park of town and works for a very African American dominated local government. Direct quote from our last mayor "The brotha's and sista's run this town".



To kind of stay on topic. I don't really mind some affirmative action. Although, in today's day and age I think the term 'affirmative action' might need to be moved around and not necessarily be focused on black Americans as much as it once was.

Yeah I live in a pretty black neighborhood plus they bus kids in from the inner city and another nearby suburb that has a sizeable black population. And I have black friends and I defend them against bigotry and racism but I dont believe in affirmative action because I don't believe in discriminating against anyone. And discriminations against whites aren't acceptable just as discrimination against blacks or Asian or any other race is. And I didn't say that they all cry out for special treatment I was just saying the ones that do kind of give blacks a bad name. Where do you live?

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#23

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:08 AM Edited by trip, 07 May 2013 - 02:10 AM.

Cool. I'm with ya.

e:
Forgot. I live in west Philadelphia and have worked in city government since the mid 90s

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#24

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:14 AM

QUOTE (trip @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 02:08)
Cool. I'm with ya.

e:
Forgot. I live in west Philadelphia and have worked in city government since the mid 90s

Oh lol I could see the mayor saying something like that there. So west Philly is pretty gentrified now?

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#25

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:18 AM

I'm completely against it when it comes to recruiting people for jobs. I'd kill 500 recruiters to make affirmative action go away.

You should not be able to get a job based on the color of your skin. Getting a job should be based on your ability to be able to do the job, no matter who you are. But then again, if I find out some "river wader" was gonna get my job I'd probly go postal.. Oh, wait!

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#26

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:22 AM Edited by trip, 07 May 2013 - 02:25 AM.

QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 22:14)
So west Philly is pretty gentrified now?

Don't even get me started on that. My area went from being a super cool, ultra mix of every culture, race, and ethnicity where we all got along in a great Bohemian way to a neighborhood of blonde ladies jogging [in pairs] with those sports strollers w/kids.

The corner where my wife had a gun held to her head is now a cafe with outdoor seating. The other week it was featured in a news article about the neighborhood and how the neighborhood feels like Greece.

The sounds of pimps beating up their hos has been replaced by loud drunk white guys who just want to talk all loud because they are drunk and it is 3-4am.

I could go on....but yes...my little chunk of west phila has been gentrified. The only plus is...I get to scare some of the white folk since I am old school west philly ph34r.gif

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#27

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:29 AM

Having race quotas and/or forcing preferential hiring standards to one minority group is incredibly racist and a violation of people's rights. Instead of people being free to associate or not associate with any one of their own choosing, the state forces people to interact with each other against their will or face stiff legal penalties. Forcing blacks to not associate with whites (as happened under segregation) is highly immoral, and yet people think it's not only morally acceptable but actually fantastic when the state forces AA laws that also violate the right to voluntary association.

Economically, AA is a negative for the people it's designed to help. Like most economic policies, people focus purely on intentions and confuse that with results. Economist Thomas Sowell explains one major unintended consequence of AA in the following video.


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#28

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:29 AM

QUOTE (trip @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 02:22)
QUOTE (gtamann123 @ Monday, May 6 2013, 22:14)
So west Philly is pretty gentrified now?

Don't even get me started on that. My area went from being a super cool, ultra mix of every culture, race, and ethnicity where we all got along in a great Bohemian way to a neighborhood of blonde ladies jogging [in pairs] with those sports strollers w/kids.

The corner where my wife had a gun held to her head is now a cafe with outdoor seating. The other week it was featured in a news article about the neighborhood and how the neighborhood feels like Greece.

The sounds of pimps beating up their hos has been replaced by loud drunk white guys who just want to talk all loud because they are drunk and it is 3-4am.

I could go on....but yes...my little chunk of west phila has been gentrified. The only plus is...I get to scare some of the white folk since I am old school west philly ph34r.gif

Lol well I guess another perk would be less crime since I doubt your wife has I worry about getting a gun to the face anymore. But wow I would have never guessed that. Sounds more like an affluent suburb than good ole west Philly.

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#29

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:34 AM

Affirmative Action isn't about justice or leveling the score. If they really wanted that, they would hold their hands out to the descendants of the African tribes who enslaved their ancestors and sold them to Europeans. Besides, Whites were not the first or only people to practice slavery, we were however the first to abolish it even to the point of spilling the blood of our own kind to see it end. Only a small minority of whites ever owned slaves anyway. One also has to wonder how much reparation Arabs in the Middle East give to their historically enslaved Africans.

Non-whites should thank their lucky stars they're allowed the privilege to live in our luxurious societies enjoying our many inventions and that we have given billions in charity to third world countries. As if that isn't enough, they revel in the moral legitimacy our own media and universities give to them. No, Affirmative Action is instead about opportunism; taking advantage of an emotionally abused and morally disarmed race of people- the only ones in this world who will put up with it.

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai)
Ok, so today in English, a couple kids debated on some issues, and an interesting one came up. Affirmative Action. For those who don't know what it is, it's where minorities have a better chance at getting into schools and good jobs, but some deem it as "unfair"

Nice control word; referring to people by how many of them there are.

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai)
As a black man well teenager I'm biased towards it a little bit because I have an advantage, and the fact that minorities in America has been through some sh*t, but I can see how some could call it unfair, but my question is, Is it really?

Non-whites fare a hell of a lot better in white countries than in their own. Answer me this honestly: do you regret the Transatlantic slave trade bearing in mind it's the only reason you're not currently dying of famine?

QUOTE (DarrinPA)
It shouldn't be based on the color of people's skin

It's not based on skin colour. It's based on race. Spend a couple of weeks under the sun and see if you qualify.

QUOTE (DarrinPA)
because to assume a black person is ALWAYS at a disadvantage is what I consider racist.

I don't know. Define racist anyway. Perhaps the proponents of AA know, deep down, that genetics plays a significant role in how well one does.

QUOTE (Melchior)
Yes, because white people already have an (arguably much greater) unfair advantage.

Yes, in the societies they have built. I don't know how to break this to you but whites kinda created Western civilization. confused.gif

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai)
Yes it is unfair, yet it's also unfair that an employer would choose a John Smith over a Tyrone Williams.

Freedom of Association- without it America is not the land of the free but a bureaucratic Marxist state. There is also job performance, intelligence and criminal tendencies to consider.

QUOTE (fgcarva1)
I believe affirmative action quotas can work for unskilled labour jobs

...while the more disadvantaged whites get screwed over further. Slavery was totally their fault after all.

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#30

Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:37 AM

QUOTE (hl_world @ Tuesday, May 7 2013, 02:34)
Affirmative Action isn't about justice or leveling the score. If they really wanted that, they would hold their hands out to the descendants of the African tribes who enslaved their ancestors and sold them to Europeans. Besides, Whites were not the first or only people to practice slavery, we were however the first to abolish it even to the point of spilling the blood of our own kind to see it end. Only a small minority of whites ever owned slaves anyway. One also has to wonder how much reparation Arabs in the Middle East give to their historically enslaved Africans.

Non-whites should thank their lucky stars they're allowed the privilege to live in our luxurious societies enjoying our many inventions and that we have given billions in charity to third world countries. As if that isn't enough, they revel in the moral legitimacy our own media and universities give to them. No, Affirmative Action is instead about opportunism; taking advantage of an emotionally abused and morally disarmed race of people- the only ones in this world who will put up with it.

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai)
Ok, so today in English, a couple kids debated on some issues, and an interesting one came up. Affirmative Action. For those who don't know what it is, it's where minorities have a better chance at getting into schools and good jobs, but some deem it as "unfair"

Nice control word; referring to people by how many of them there are.

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai)
As a black man well teenager I'm biased towards it a little bit because I have an advantage, and the fact that minorities in America has been through some sh*t, but I can see how some could call it unfair, but my question is, Is it really?

Non-whites fare a hell of a lot better in white countries than in their own. Answer me this honestly: do you regret the Transatlantic slave trade bearing in mind it's the only reason you're not currently dying of famine?

QUOTE (DarrinPA)
It shouldn't be based on the color of people's skin

It's not based on skin colour. It's based on race. Spend a couple of weeks under the sun and see if you qualify.

QUOTE (DarrinPA)
because to assume a black person is ALWAYS at a disadvantage is what I consider racist.

I don't know. Define racist anyway. Perhaps the proponents of AA know, deep down, that genetics plays a significant role in how well one does.

QUOTE (Melchior)
Yes, because white people already have an (arguably much greater) unfair advantage.

Yes, in the societies they have built. I don't know how to break this to you but whites kinda created Western civilization. confused.gif

QUOTE (Mr.Mordecai)
Yes it is unfair, yet it's also unfair that an employer would choose a John Smith over a Tyrone Williams.

Freedom of Association- without it America is not the land of the free but a bureaucratic Marxist state. There is also job performance, intelligence and criminal tendencies to consider.

QUOTE (fgcarva1)
I believe affirmative action quotas can work for unskilled labour jobs

...while the more disadvantaged whites get screwed over further. Slavery was totally their fault after all.

^This. Not even going to elaborate. I pretty much agree 100% with what was said there.




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