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Ziggy455
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#31

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:06 AM

QUOTE (brownbear @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 02:03)
QUOTE (Ziggy455 @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 01:57)

A nice little piece, very descriptive. Actually. It's all prose and no dialogue. Some stories like that are very neat. I like it.

That's the thing, when I right a story, I see an image in my head and I like to write about and describe these images in detail, but when it gets to dialogue I often mess up, mainly because I start to lose interest.

When it comes to a dialogue-based scene. I just write the dialogue. I edit it later but if I've got an outline of the general conversation, it makes writing the scene a lot easier!

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#32

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:07 AM

QUOTE (GTA-King @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 02:59)
In your opinion, what would be the best way to open a story like this? There's 2 protagonists, after all.

And my sociopath protagonist is basically just going to be an egotistical, manipulative narcissist. Not sure how I want my psychopath protagonist just yet. But I'd like for him to have a mentality similar to Hannibal Lecter's. Also trying to figure out a great place for them to meet. I'm really considering a private school.

That advice you gave me about narrative modes is really helping, by the way. icon14.gif

Focusing on having dual protagonists is walking a tricky tightrope. For the most part, no story truly has two protagonists: those that do are often simply disguising the fact that their actual protagonist isn't really fleshed out enough to carry the whole narrative. It should always come back down to that one core character. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it's difficult.

What you might have is a protagonist switch, where you shift the story's momentum from one character to another. But again, it's difficult to do it right.

I think what would be more effective for you would be to choose your protagonist, and use the other character as a way to explore the various facets of your lead character's personality.

The other option, as mentioned above, could be to start from the viewpoint of your initial protagonist, and then switch at some point later on to the other.

The world is literally your oyster; you can take it in absolutely any direction. The more complex you make it, though, the more difficult you're going to find pulling it off - especially if you don't have experience guiding your way through a more basic narrative.

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#33

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:14 AM

I have thought about the whole 2 protagonists scenario alot actually. I think it would be neat if they both had an even number of chapters between them. Each one builds more on their character, and how they view each other. This leaves room for the reader to learn more about the other protagonist from one protagonist's perspective. Behind the scenes kind of thing. There could even be points where they are talking to one another, and the readers know what the other is thinking based on his previous narration.

I'm thinking that would be the best way to handle it.

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#34

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:15 AM

QUOTE (brownbear @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 03:03)
QUOTE (Ziggy455 @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 01:57)

A nice little piece, very descriptive. Actually. It's all prose and no dialogue. Some stories like that are very neat. I like it.

That's the thing, when I right a story, I see an image in my head and I like to write about and describe these images in detail, but when it gets to dialogue I often mess up, mainly because I start to lose interest.

What I'd say to this is that you enjoy writing vignettes; small moments, little flashes of intrigue.

But vignettes, on their own, aren't really stories - they offer a way to explore these smaller scenes without the pressure of an overbearing structure or plot. By their very nature, they can be incomplete.

I think this is a great way to start. Just keep writing these little vignettes, build your skills through it, and then when you find an entire story that grasps your interest, start branching out a little. Whether that's by writing a related scene or by starting to weave entire plot threads into this initial image is up to you.

I enjoyed your little scene, regardless. You do a good job of conveying that image you see in your head, and while it leaves its central thread incomplete, it provides a great snapshot into this wider story.

I'd try not to think too much about separating writing into description and dialogue, because at the end of the day, it all needs to come together as part of a seamless whole. Try to incorporate both into your vignettes from time to time; make it so that you don't even notice that some dialogue has crept into it.

Before you know it, an entire story will be spreading forth from this brief little image in your head. wink.gif

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#35

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:21 AM

QUOTE (Ziggy455 @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 02:06)
QUOTE (brownbear @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 02:03)
QUOTE (Ziggy455 @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 01:57)

A nice little piece, very descriptive. Actually. It's all prose and no dialogue. Some stories like that are very neat. I like it.

That's the thing, when I right a story, I see an image in my head and I like to write about and describe these images in detail, but when it gets to dialogue I often mess up, mainly because I start to lose interest.

When it comes to a dialogue-based scene. I just write the dialogue. I edit it later but if I've got an outline of the general conversation, it makes writing the scene a lot easier!

I see what you mean, but dialogue just doesn't really interest me, of course it's hugely important, I just enjoy making up characters and locations, then describing them and building them up from my imagination, but when it comes to writing a lengthy story I always give up because I lose interest, can get quite annoying really.

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#36

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:32 AM

Only one person answered my cheese question. I AM SOOOO SAD.

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#37

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:38 AM

QUOTE (Cubanwhip @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 03:32)
Only one person answered my cheese question. I AM SOOOO SAD.

My answer would be so plain that it could be nothing short of disappointing. confused.gif

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#38

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:45 AM

QUOTE (Eminence @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 02:38)
QUOTE (Cubanwhip @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 03:32)
Only one person answered my cheese question. I AM SOOOO SAD.

My answer would be so plain that it could be nothing short of disappointing. confused.gif

I'm a motherf*ckin' Edam man, niugga.

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#39

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:59 AM

QUOTE (Eminence @ Saturday, Apr 13 2013, 19:11)
Thing is, given that people can barely sustain writing a single short story in the space of a month... yeah, it's probably a non-starter.


Really, the only issue with this would be getting everyone to get the book. We could use some public sites like this, or this, or this, or this but someone would need to organize the group. Hell, I'd do it, especially if I could garner some people to join the site's IRC server. Real time chat is great for this stuff, and generally more fun than just responding in a topic. If we did this though, I'd like to bring in anyone we could from the general sections. It'd be a good way to bring people into the section, but that's been said thousands of times before when discussing these things. tounge.gif


--

QUOTE (GTA-King @ Saturday, Apr 13 2013, 19:11)

Ok. Here's the opening paragraph to my story:

QUOTE
This is the story of a seemingly innocent little boy who grows into a ferocious, conscienceless, ugly monster that destroys and devours everything good and pure that crosses his path. From tender childhood friendships to sweet innocent romances, nothing is immune to the monster's dark spell and insidious nature.


Would like any kind of feedback. Especially where you guys would like to see the characters go. icon14.gif


Yeah, OK, lot of criticism from me just from this. First off, don't share your work until the draft is finished. It sets something off in your head that says "hey, it's good enough to be done if I'm already talking about it" and generally makes going back to your unedited draft much harder. That's my preface to this specifically, but it applies to a lot of people in this section. Admittedly, I have done it too. That's why I know it does that. tounge.gif

Next thing, the actual passage reads a bit fuzzy. I don't know your narrating style, but generally breaking the fourth wall requires some balls to pull off correctly. Also, throwing in a lot of adjectives works in some cases, but the way you set up the first sentence with "seemingly" throws all of it off and makes it read weird. The word "immune" also pulls me out of the reading. Try reading your sentences out loud when you're editing them, it's a lot easier to check for pacing issues within your exposition when you do that.

QUOTE
and I'm having a bit of trouble making the sociopath (who is 1 of 2 protagonists... the other being a psychopath) seem charming. I want the reader to actually feel like they are inside his head, & kinda root for him. I want the same thing for my psychopath protagonist, but I haven't really developed him yet though.


All right, sociopathy is a useless term nowadays. Psychopath too, but basically both terms are exemplified by the same traits: a person characterized by reduced fear, a lack of empathy, coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle. As a diagnostic category it is outdated, having been replaced by Antisocial personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. So you should stop using the two as though they're functionally different.

Making someone root for a protagonist is easy, at least I've found it easy to root for them. Patrick Bateman is someone I can identify with because through the course of American Psycho we realize he is essentially powerless. He spends his life dehumanizing others and torturing people to feel some sense of emotion, but in reality he is a non-entity, a void. He is empty and he hates himself for it, which is a root for narcissism and a lot of tragic hero stories, to begin with. That's my take on it, anyhow.

If you want a relatable protagonist, then show that character going through conflict, like any story would. The audience will inevitably love or hate him based on their own presumptions, so biding your work on the idea that the audience will love him is not a good idea. Write the character as you want, and the writing will speak for itself.

Anyway, another user on this forum gave me some great advice a few years ago. He basically told me that ideas are much, much less important than the actual writing. Don't put so much emphasis on your ideas, they will betray you if you rely on them so heavily to keep the story going.

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#40

Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:03 AM

QUOTE (Eminence @ Saturday, Apr 13 2013, 22:38)
My answer would be so plain that it could be nothing short of disappointing. confused.gif

Awww, okayz. Haha.


QUOTE (Ziggy455 @ Saturday, Apr 13 2013, 22:45)
I'm a motherf*ckin' Edam man, niugga.


Never tried. Maybe I should give it a try. I am quite the cheese man. Mmmm.

@currenttopicofconversation

I sometimes find myself writing bouts of dialogue with intermittent sections of reflective prose and description. Most comments on my dialogue from professors is that I capture the general essence of human speech patterns, with the concise sentences and the way people can jump from one topic and return to something that was spoken about earlier. For instance:

Juliette lit her cigarette and looked over at Juan who was staring out the window, down the empty street to the single flashing sign advertising $3.78 for a gallon of gas. "So what are you gonna do about Peter?" She ashes her cigarette and picks up her coffee.

Juan sighs and looks down at his glass of water. "You ever feel that, sometimes, you're lost but know exactly which way to go?" He takes a sip of his water and leans his head back, resting on the booth. "Like the answer is in your face, but you choose to ignore it because it's not what you want."

"Because you don't want to do it?" Juliette takes a drag.

Peter closes his eyes and takes a deep breath. "I think Peter can figure out what to do."


That's how I've been writing for the past few years, which people love because it has that quality of the way people speak and tell stories. That's why I don't like flowery writing or overly descriptive things because, when you listen to real people tell a story, that's not how they speak. I always try to encapsulate the way people speak and how their minds put things together.

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#41

Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:09 AM

QUOTE (Cubanwhip @ Saturday, Apr 13 2013, 21:03)
That's how I've been writing for the past few years, which people love because it has that quality of the way people speak and tell stories. That's why I don't like flowery writing or overly descriptive things because, when you listen to real people tell a story, that's not how they speak. I always try to encapsulate the way people speak and how their minds put things together.

This is pretty much how I do it, as well. I try to take it a step further and incorporate the more postmodern influences into it. Small inconsistencies, the apparent limit of the protagonist's perspective, etc. Then again my writing probably just comes off as inconsistent ramblings with no coherent theme.

Ah well, not like I get graded on this.

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#42

Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:12 AM

QUOTE (Tyler @ Saturday, Apr 13 2013, 23:09)
QUOTE (Cubanwhip @ Saturday, Apr 13 2013, 21:03)
That's how I've been writing for the past few years, which people love because it has that quality of the way people speak and tell stories. That's why I don't like flowery writing or overly descriptive things because, when you listen to real people tell a story, that's not how they speak. I always try to encapsulate the way people speak and how their minds put things together.

This is pretty much how I do it, as well. I try to take it a step further and incorporate the more postmodern influences into it. Small inconsistencies, the apparent limit of the protagonist's perspective, etc. Then again my writing probably just comes off as inconsistent ramblings with no coherent theme.

Ah well, not like I get graded on this.

Haha. Yeah, I mess around with the idea of the unreliable narrator, but usually I do it through the other character pointing out their flaws in logic, with the narrator defending his own point mentally and calling them an idiot or whichever.

And I do get graded on it. Of course, that's what happens when you want to go to graduate school and be a professor.

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#43

Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:16 AM

@Tyler : Wow man! All I can say is thanks for all that great advice! I will definitely keep going back to that post as I begin to build on my story more. Much appreciated for the excellent feedback! icon14.gif

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#44

Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:25 AM

Outlining used to be a big issue for me. I used to be overwhelmed with writing a story. Now, I think I have a comfortable niche. I've only plotted out Act I lightly with a few notes on some scenes and from there I'm going to see how it goes. Any good story develops away from the outline, that's why it's never set in stone. I'm comfortable knowing what to write about though. Free-writing annoys me a times. I mean as far as my Somebody Else's Mess has gone. Just from a few simple notes and a solid Act I outline I've managed to write 7,000 words that I believe are solid because I've taken the time to make the scenes WORK. I haven't just vomited up a story. I've taken a big chunk of worry away by following my plan but my creativity is still in tact as I can play around a lot with the work. Feels good, man.

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#45

Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:51 AM

Almost finished chapter 10 for Peasant Blurs - then I'll be on to proof reading, editing, expanding and so forth. Can't wait to post it and hopefully get some productive feedback; as I haven't posted in WD in some time now.

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#46

Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

What am I reading?

The Long Earth - By Terry Pratchatt and Stephen Baxter.

It's basically about people discovering a way to get to parallel universes and the Earths that inhabit each one. Each Earth is very different to the original. Brings up lots of interesting points about resources etc given that resources are now pretty much limitless. There's also some good conflict between the people who can naturally move between worlds (Most people need a device to move worlds) and those who can't. A lot of people leave Earth for a fresh start. Most of the people who stay \are the Rich as they have the most to lose. I won't go into the story but it really is such a brilliant book.


Gardens of the Moon - By Steven Erikson

It's a high fantasy novel about the Malazan Empire and the lengthy drawn out conflicts it's involved in. It's got a very unique selling point on how magic is handled with magic being drawn from Warrens which are individual to each Mage and which have links to Gods etc. It's quite philosophical and in it people can ascend to Godhood. Gods play a major part in it and are frequently getting killed off or double crossed. It's a nice little touch as Deities very rarely make any major present in most other fantasy Iv'e read.

As for Stephen King I'll be honest in saying I never paticularly liked his books. That said I think I tried reading him too young. The most recent King novel I read was Under the Dome and that has to be up there as one of my favourite books of all time!.

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#47

Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:44 AM

Also, I totally didn't read the first post, but I'm so glad I did Eminence! Now, how's your sex life?

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#48

Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:14 AM

QUOTE (Eminence @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 01:11)
Sounds good. wink.gif

Another thing I was thinking, though I'm not sure how feasible this one is. There was a lot of talk earlier this evening in The Social Club about discussing work in greater detail, whether that's analysing the characters, themes or what have you. A few people said they don't really get the opportunity to do so.

So, how feasible is it that we could start a sort of book club or something? Y'know, one of those cheesy groups where everyone reads the same book and then discusses it afterward, and there's always someone who hasn't actually read it and who phones in their opinion by channeling sparknotes (a little like at uni).

Thing is, given that people can barely sustain writing a single short story in the space of a month... yeah, it's probably a non-starter.

That was parly my thinking behind my recommended reads / to share the books we think others should read, and discuss them. Very little discussing happened though, Im not sure people could be bothered

It was also a sneaky place for me to get a list of books to read to improve myself wink.gif


Oh and to y'all who said I've been around for a while - I've actually been on this forum since 2002, and only discovered the WD in 2010 or so. Shocking!


Ziggy - I'm not sure how you've read that assassins story as ive never uploaded it. It was written in maths book (yes that's what I did with my maths books) and then around 2003 I began rewriting it but it fizzled out. I've grown a lot since the as a writer so perhaps one day I will rewrite it and share it here

I'm liking the fact someone's interested in my new stuff - I really feel the characters growing ATM, more so than anything I've written. I think I have to find a way to break it away from the dreaded FF label.

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#49

Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

QUOTE
Ziggy - I'm not sure how you've read that assassins story as ive never uploaded it. It was written in maths book (yes that's what I did with my maths books) and then around 2003 I began rewriting it but it fizzled out. I've grown a lot since the  as a writer so perhaps one day I will rewrite it and share it here


I remember critiquing one of your old, old stories. I think I've gotten it mixed up with another one. It was when you first started, before your fanfics. notify.gif

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#50

Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

QUOTE (Ziggy455 @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 02:45)
QUOTE (Eminence @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 02:38)
QUOTE (Cubanwhip @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 03:32)
Only one person answered my cheese question. I AM SOOOO SAD.

My answer would be so plain that it could be nothing short of disappointing. confused.gif

I'm a motherf*ckin' Edam man, niugga.

Double Gloucester or in a sarnie, cheddar, cooked mozerella


Regarding the two protagonists thing
As I mentioned, my project has two, each representing polar opposites of what is I suppose the same person, ina weird way. Things we aspire to be and what drives us, be it smarts or greed. Morality is a fickle thing and I'm ttying to show that. I'm really trying to make the characters complex and representitivr of things.
It is hard, yes, but if it was easy, I wouldn't be trying hard enough


First person is hard too. My other project focuses in that one guy. No breakaway scenes to the bad guys, what HE sees is what the reader sees. It's a struggle tonkeep it high quality but as said, if it was easy it wouldn't be worth it. What's harder is how I'm going for the antihero - a real bad guy, the sort shot in Wild West films - you know the kind Arnold swartzenegger fights. The kind we all hate.
But to paraphrase goodfellas, I'm the kinda guy who roots for the bad guys in films. I want this story to be the of the bad guy, a TRUE bad guy, but how to show that while still having the reader fall in love with him? That's the other challenge.


Ziggy - please link me to it if you can find it. I thought COL was my first

Or was it a SSOTM entry or one shot (topic)?

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#51

Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

Maybe it was City of Lies. f*ck. Damn. Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

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#52

Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:22 PM

We should have a new roleplay smile.gif

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#53

Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (VProductions @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 16:22)
We should have a new roleplay smile.gif

We really, really shouldn't.

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#54

Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

Has anybody here read either "Real Ultimate Power" or "Ghosts/Aliens"? I highly suggest reading them, if you're in the mood for a laugh, and I can't wait for the third sequel of the Hamburger Trillogy!

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#55

Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

QUOTE (universetwisters @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 17:31)
I can't wait for the third sequel of the Hamburger Trilogy!

By Tony? Is it confirmed?

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#56

Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:23 PM

QUOTE (VProductions @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 12:44)
QUOTE (universetwisters @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 17:31)
I can't wait for the third sequel of the Hamburger Trilogy!

By Tony? Is it confirmed?

No, Robert/Trey Hamburger (unless Tony is his real name ph34r.gif )

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#57

Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

QUOTE (universetwisters @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 18:23)
No, Robert/Trey Hamburger (unless Tony is his real name ph34r.gif )

I thought you mean't that crazy Micheal Hamburger by TonyZimmzy

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#58

Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

QUOTE (VProductions @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 13:28)
QUOTE (universetwisters @ Sunday, Apr 14 2013, 18:23)
No, Robert/Trey Hamburger (unless Tony is his real name  ph34r.gif )

I thought you mean't that crazy Micheal Hamburger by TonyZimmzy

Nope, meant these two masterpieces:

user posted image

user posted image

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#59

Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:03 PM

All that advice you all gave me yesterday is really helping me shape my story. Thanks again, guys! icon14.gif

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#60

Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

I haven't read those, Twist. I might give them a lookover, see what they're like.




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