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The Afterlife

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Mick.
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#31

Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:34 AM

I would like to believe in an afterlife. I have had quite profound astral experiences before and would like to believe that we live on different planes of frequencies. But I am really in any way, religious.

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#32

Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:00 PM

Religion was used by Josiace in Jerusalem to create safety and to justify his lead. The Torah wasn't written chronologically, from time to time the authority modified and added things to respond the current needs. You can prove this by simply raising anochronisms in the texts. The same goes for the Bible and the Coran, plus their also based on the events told by the Torah.

Thoughts of an afterlife, under any form that includes a pursuit of consciousness, were created by these ideas.

 

This itself proves nothing, If I wanted to advance any theory I should talk about the realtion between matter & spirit, but I'm to lazy because I'm gonna find it out later anyway :D


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#33

Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:42 PM


Carmen!- doesn't the idea that God would condemn individuals to an eternity of suffering for merely exercising free will and rationality strike you as anything but benevolent? I mean, what kind of a deity basically says "right, I've given you all the power to make your own decisions. Now I'm going to sit back and watch you all, and any of you that don't decide voluntarily to believe in me despite the complete absence of evidence to support the idea of my existence are basically f*cked."? If that's God's idea of benevolence, he's not worthy of worship.

That's your problem. We were designed with free will for a reason. If you choose not to worship and exercise faith, then you're responsible for your eternity. You may think that's cruel, but I think that's merciful. He's giving us chances everyday to serve Him. While most people reject Him, others accept Him. It's all voluntary. Like I said in my original post; either you choose to believe or don't. It's all about faith and trusting Him.


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#34

Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:49 PM Edited by El_Diablo, 13 June 2014 - 06:52 PM.

When i said what you quoted; I wasn't referring to "bible-thumpers", but to the people who practice their religion and faith privately.

and I agree that those people are not the problem.

but unfortunately those people are still represented by overbearing organizations who wield their power and influence in a way that harms society.

 

I really have no problem with religion and religious people.

at least not intrinsically. it's all the societal baggage that comes with it. even when they mean well and attempt to keep to themselves, their power structure and their hierarchy still finds a way to butt its ugly head into every public conversation.

 

they want to have their opinions heard on climate change, on sexuality, on equal rights, on biology, etc etc.

and guess what? your opinions on reality do not count. I don't give a flying f*ck what you believe or how strongly you believe it because it's still just a belief and has no place at the table of reason and progress.

 

everything positive that society has done for itself at large has come on the heels of secular reasoning in specifically rejecting ancient dogma. that's how we established the modern State with the modern Rule of Law. we moved past the bullsh*t long enough to establish some common sense ground rules. you wanna' know what the world would be like if we hadn't done that and instead remained mired in religious attitudes about life?

 

just take a look at the Middle East and what the power of extreme religious conviction has done there.

it's planet Earth's asshole. the most backwards, intolerant, medieval ages nonsense.

 

every day you still hear about some family that stoned their daughter to death because she hooked up with her boyfriend out of wedlock.

why? because it's in the Qur'an. that could have been us; even the Bible commands its followers to take up slavery and beat their children when they're disobedient.

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#35

Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:23 PM



Carmen!- doesn't the idea that God would condemn individuals to an eternity of suffering for merely exercising free will and rationality strike you as anything but benevolent? I mean, what kind of a deity basically says "right, I've given you all the power to make your own decisions. Now I'm going to sit back and watch you all, and any of you that don't decide voluntarily to believe in me despite the complete absence of evidence to support the idea of my existence are basically f*cked."? If that's God's idea of benevolence, he's not worthy of worship.

That's your problem. We were designed with free will for a reason. If you choose not to worship and exercise faith, then you're responsible for your eternity. You may think that's cruel, but I think that's merciful. He's giving us chances everyday to serve Him. While most people reject Him, others accept Him. It's all voluntary. Like I said in my original post; either you choose to believe or don't. It's all about faith and trusting Him.
So, you're saying that the sole purpose in free will is to make the choice to believe in god? If so, why bother? I mean, if the sole purpose in free will is to give people the choice to believe in god and condemn those that don't, how is that benevolent?

The interesting aspect being here that various other religious beliefs under the umbrella of Christianity disagree with this fundamentally. In fact, there are several sections of the bible that imply belief in god isn't necessary to reach the afterlife, merely selfless and noble action. Which brings me onto another conundrum.

I do not believe in god, but I live my life in such a way that I do good for no personal gain: therefore selfless acts. If someone believes in god solely because they fear eternal damnation, then it is done purely for selfish purposes. If god prides selfish belief above selfless action, then he is a vile and malevolent being who does not deserve our love.
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#36

Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:48 PM

So, you're saying that the sole purpose in free will is to make the choice to believe in god? If so, why bother? I mean, if the sole purpose in free will is to give people the choice to believe in god and condemn those that don't, how is that benevolent?

The interesting aspect being here that various other religious beliefs under the umbrella of Christianity disagree with this fundamentally. In fact, there are several sections of the bible that imply belief in god isn't necessary to reach the afterlife, merely selfless and noble action. Which brings me onto another conundrum.

I do not believe in god, but I live my life in such a way that I do good for no personal gain: therefore selfless acts. If someone believes in god solely because they fear eternal damnation, then it is done purely for selfish purposes. If god prides selfish belief above selfless action, then he is a vile and malevolent being who does not deserve our love.

 

He doesn't condemn anyone. We're the ones that still make the decision. It is benevolent because like I said, He is giving us the choice to either believe or not. He's offering salvation from death. That's good and very merciful.

 

You mind showing me those "sections of the bible that imply belief in god isn't necessary to reach the afterlife"? Belief in God and His son Jesus Christ is one of the main things we need to support our faith.

 

I agree with your second sentence in your last paragraph. That is selfish. And believe it or not, there are many Christians who do live their lives out of pure fear. But then there are those who don't. While we are supposed to fear God out of sheer amazement and love for creating us, we aren't supposed to be afraid of Him as if He's a tyrant going around condemning people because.. that's not the case. I wouldn't want to worship a selfish God. I'd rather worship a selfless one. In fact, I do. He gave His only Son Jesus Christ to save us from damnation. That's incredibly selfless if you ask me. And for that, I think He does deserve our love. Because, he didn't have to sacrifice Himself on the cross to save us.

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#37

Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:00 PM

I applaud the effort Sivis, but Carmen isn't here to debate anything.


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#38

Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:47 AM Edited by Triple Vacuum Seal, 14 June 2014 - 07:55 AM.

 

So, you're saying that the sole purpose in free will is to make the choice to believe in god? If so, why bother? I mean, if the sole purpose in free will is to give people the choice to believe in god and condemn those that don't, how is that benevolent?

The interesting aspect being here that various other religious beliefs under the umbrella of Christianity disagree with this fundamentally. In fact, there are several sections of the bible that imply belief in god isn't necessary to reach the afterlife, merely selfless and noble action. Which brings me onto another conundrum.

I do not believe in god, but I live my life in such a way that I do good for no personal gain: therefore selfless acts. If someone believes in god solely because they fear eternal damnation, then it is done purely for selfish purposes. If god prides selfish belief above selfless action, then he is a vile and malevolent being who does not deserve our love.

 

He doesn't condemn anyone. We're the ones that still make the decision. It is benevolent because like I said, He is giving us the choice to either believe or not. He's offering salvation from death. That's good and very merciful.

 

You mind showing me those "sections of the bible that imply belief in god isn't necessary to reach the afterlife"? Belief in God and His son Jesus Christ is one of the main things we need to support our faith.

 

I agree with your second sentence in your last paragraph. That is selfish. And believe it or not, there are many Christians who do live their lives out of pure fear. But then there are those who don't. While we are supposed to fear God out of sheer amazement and love for creating us, we aren't supposed to be afraid of Him as if He's a tyrant going around condemning people because.. that's not the case. I wouldn't want to worship a selfish God. I'd rather worship a selfless one. In fact, I do. He gave His only Son Jesus Christ to save us from damnation. That's incredibly selfless if you ask me. And for that, I think He does deserve our love. Because, he didn't have to sacrifice Himself on the cross to save us.

 

 

 

Logic appears to be religion's worst enemy at the moment.  You mention "decisions" in the quote above.  My countless hours in church, Bible study, and early Christian school all reinforced the idea that God literally knows everything.  In fact this assumption can only be binary since he either does know everything or he doesn't.  If he does know everything, then this includes all past, current, and future events of humanity.  This renders any afterlife judgement bearing on our actions useless as he already knew the fate of our souls before our great great great grandparents even engaged in intercourse.  This implies that all eternal damnation is a matter of mindless and sadistic suffering that can be traced back to God; thus blurring the ethical lines between himself and the devil.  If God doesn't know everything, then apart from the obvious recklessness of absolute and unquestioning support for a figure working with incomplete information, we can logically conclude that he is a hypocrite.  This is the case because he firmly prohibits gambling even with a few cents of artificially valued currency.  Yet he has full license to gamble with the eternal fate of your priceless soul since in the end he just doesn't know what's gonna happen right?  In any case, God's actions appear to be anything but that of love.

 

 

The difference between a religion and a cult is a matter of public relations.

 

El Diablo is correct in the post above me.  The problem with debating religious topics is that the religious side is so strongly indoctrinated by those whom they deeply trust and love (typically parents), that every ounce of their being can not fathom defeat.  Defeat means your whole life is a lie; so you decided to stomach a tasty plate of bullsh*t instead of the bittersweet tasting reality.  Many atheists on the other hand would love to be wrong.  It would be rather comforting to know that an invisible man has everything all taken care of.  Furthermore, y'all always turn right back around and cite your religious book (in the Bible's case....a work of fiction and hearsay passed across several languages, political objectives, and centuries written over a hundred years AFTER Jesus' death PRIOR to the invention of the printing press and disseminated across several generations of powerlessly illiterate followers) as the sole source when arguing against numerous objective empirical findings along with basic logic.

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#39

Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:58 AM

He doesn't condemn anyone. We're the ones that still make the decision.It is benevolent because like I said, He is giving us the choice to either believe or not. He's offering salvation from death. That's good and very merciful.

Why is it merciful? Giving everyone a chance of redemption regardless of whether they believed in God would be merciful. Judging people based on action rather than belief would be merciful. Condemning good people through a lack of exposure to Christianity is simply despicable. In fact, the whole thing smacks of double standards. God expects non-believers, those heathens brought up with a different religious identity, to go out and seek experience to form their belief in God, and yet anyone who goes out into the world and doesn't find anything to believe, anything to put their faith in- often not for a lack of trying- deserves eternity in hell.

For that matter, what kind of narcissistic being prides slavish devotion without question over selfless action for the good of others?

 

You mind showing me those "sections of the bible that imply belief in god isn't necessary to reach the afterlife"? Belief in God and His son Jesus Christ is one of the main things we need to support our faith.

Well, Timothy 4:10 for one, and the entire dogma of the catholic church in the later part of the 20th century, and most other Christian sects. Restrictivism has all but disappeared from common religious teaching simply because it raises too many questions about the benevolence of God to really be practiced by anyone apart from hard-liners.
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CantThinkOfOne2013
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#40

Posted 17 June 2014 - 01:15 AM

Why is it merciful? Giving everyone a chance of redemption regardless of whether they believed in God would be merciful. Judging people based on action rather than belief would be merciful. Condemning good people through a lack of exposure to Christianity is simply despicable. In fact, the whole thing smacks of double standards. God expects non-believers, those heathens brought up with a different religious identity, to go out and seek experience to form their belief in God, and yet anyone who goes out into the world and doesn't find anything to believe, anything to put their faith in- often not for a lack of trying- deserves eternity in hell.

 
We are being judged by an infinitely holy God who has done nothing bad, as human beings, we have all done something bad in our lifetimes, so if we were judged by actions rather than belief, we would all end up in Hell.

It has been said that the word of Jesus will be exposed to everyone one way or another, but it is up to them if they choose to believe.


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#41

Posted 17 June 2014 - 04:34 AM

We are being judged by an infinitely holy God who has done nothing bad

do Christians even read the Old Testament anymore?

I mean, I know it's the Jews book but it's in your Bible :sigh:

 

go back and read that thing.

your God is kind of a petty, jealous, vengeful, gambling, douchebag.


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#42

Posted 17 June 2014 - 10:02 AM

Gambling? where are you getting this information from?

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#43

Posted 17 June 2014 - 06:54 PM

Why is it merciful? Giving everyone a chance of redemption regardless of whether they believed in God would be merciful. Judging people based on action rather than belief would be merciful. Condemning good people through a lack of exposure to Christianity is simply despicable. In fact, the whole thing smacks of double standards. God expects non-believers, those heathens brought up with a different religious identity, to go out and seek experience to form their belief in God, and yet anyone who goes out into the world and doesn't find anything to believe, anything to put their faith in- often not for a lack of trying- deserves eternity in hell.

 
We are being judged by an infinitely holy God who has done nothing bad, as human beings, we have all done something bad in our lifetimes, so if we were judged by actions rather than belief, we would all end up in Hell.
It has been said that the word of Jesus will be exposed to everyone one way or another, but it is up to them if they choose to believe.

That's entirely contradictory to most modern interpretations of Christan theology. In fact I can't think of a single major school of Christian thought that prides belief above moral behaviour, land the entire concept of inherited sin is utterly idiotic in my view. I cannot be held responsible for the sins of my ancestors and it would be entirely malevolent to do so. Have I done more good than I have evil? That isn't for me or anyone else to determine should religious belief be right but I have tried to live my life such that I have. So tell me, how does that make me a measurably worse person than a believer who does little good?

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#44

Posted 17 June 2014 - 08:05 PM

Gambling? where are you getting this information from?

from your silly book.

like I asked; did you even read the thing?

 

I've read it cover to cover and that's probably half the reason why I don't believe in any of it.

maybe you should open it up sometime and turn to the Book of Job.


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#45

Posted 17 June 2014 - 09:30 PM

It's our choice whether we live for God or for the devil. Live for God and you'll be in Heaven. Living for yourself is living for the devil, and you'll end up in hell. Simple as that. Pure and simple. There is no ifs ands or buts.


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#46

Posted 17 June 2014 - 09:56 PM

I'm reminded of Poe's Law...

It's our choice whether we live for God or for the devil. Live for God and you'll be in Heaven. Living for yourself is living for the devil, and you'll end up in hell. Simple as that. Pure and simple. There is no ifs ands or buts.

Of course, living your life incessantly preaching to others in order to feel morally superior under the guise of 'guiding' them is what i'd call living for yourself, but I'm sure you feel otherwise. ;)

 

Those who speak on impossible matters with such certainly tend to be ill-informed and close-minded. When you think you already know everything, you'll learn nothing.


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#47

Posted 17 June 2014 - 10:36 PM

Living for yourself is living for the devil

that's the most illogical, inane, bullsh*t I've ever heard.

 

your turn.

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#48

Posted 17 June 2014 - 11:07 PM


Of course, living your life incessantly preaching to others in order to feel morally superior under the guise of 'guiding' them is what i'd call living for yourself, but I'm sure you feel otherwise. ;)

 

Those who speak on impossible matters with such certainly tend to be ill-informed and close-minded. When you think you already know everything, you'll learn nothing.

You'd call that living for myself. I don't mind preaching because it's best I share the gospel. It's required of me to do so. I don't beat people over the head with the Bible, but sharing the message is important. And, I'm not in it to feel morally superior. That's not up for me to judge. That's God's department.

 

I don't claim to know everything. Only God knows everything.


 

Living for yourself is living for the devil

that's the most illogical, inane, bullsh*t I've ever heard.

 

your turn.

 

How so? Living for yourself is selfish. The devil is selfish. Being selfish is embodying the same traits that got satan kicked out of Heaven in the first place. You can call it bs all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a certain way we ought to live, and not obeying that way is rebellion against God.


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#49

Posted 17 June 2014 - 11:41 PM

living for yourself is not synonymous with selfishness.

we all live for ourselves.

 

you eat food and breathe air. you live for yourself.

living for yourself means providing for your family and being a good person. if you thought that living for yourself meant something evil or selfish, then that's an emotional issue for you to reconcile.


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#50

Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:18 AM Edited by Triple Vacuum Seal, 18 June 2014 - 01:21 AM.

Gambling? where are you getting this information from?

Care to elaborate?  I logically outlined God's gambling addiction in my previous post with quite a bit of clarity.  You're just delusional.

 

Just admit it...like the vast majority of religious followers, you've reached no logical conclusions before arriving at your belief.  Your perspective is purely emotional and anchored by your fear.  You have been extorted into your belief under the threat of eternal damnation, alienation, and/or the fear that those close to you who introduced your religion (who too lacked logical independence on existential matters) are wrong.  These are all very rational and natural fears to have.  Acknowledging such fears would make you more aware and less vulnerable to such influences; but ignoring them reveals your gullible foolishness.  This fear, intimidation, and ultimately extortion is God's mechanism for maintaining your submissive order.  He sounds awfully human if you ask me.  Nothing personal though.  Stockholm syndrome and the bandwagon effect are very real phenomena.  

 

 

Or don't admit it.  Judging from the sociopolitical license to commit the worst atrocities in human history under the guise of "faith" (an oxymoron in a religious context), religions are their own opponents since actions always speak louder than words (scriptures).  We don't even need the proliferation of web communication and human intelligence to undermine religion.  In the case of Christianity for instance, the intolerant nature of the church tears itself down from within.  This is why so many Christians "sin" more than passive atheists. It's because religious affiliation is irrelevant to ethical and moral standing since religious code is built from predated ethics to provide the preexisting illusion of order at the price of........your soul.  We all know what getting a cleverly repackaged nothing for something is...FRAUD.  This is also inherently hazardous to justice since religious code assumes that all there is to know about justice had been discovered before the Bible, Torah, Qu'ran, etc.  Any judicial theory to progress from then is disregarded because ancient justice systems were so perfect right?  In other words, the "it's okay as long as God forgives me" attitude prevails.  Hence some of the biggest assholes you've ever met still going to heaven in a technical sense.  Where's the accountability?

 

 

Additionally, the Pope serves as a political conduit for ideological retreat as the embarrassingly revealing scientific findings pile up to make followers look less educated and more delusional everyday.  An intelligent person should be suspicious of an institution that rewards unquestioning ignorance yet penalizes inquiry into God's ways.  If religions had nothing to hide or misconstrue, then they would celebrate inquiry as the alleged flaws of atheism would lead to it's demise.  Why not celebrate shining a light on the dimly lit issues of your religion and let this disclosure do the explaining?  However, we've seen just the opposite.  In intellectually freer parts of the world, Atheism is out-pacing religion so quickly that the majority will be atheist within the next several decades.  The trends don't lie despite atheist being such a minority.  Not that popularity implies validity on these matters.  Just pointing it out because this depleting popularity is religion's (especially Christianity) most valuable asset.  Valuable because religion appeals to those most vulnerable to group-think.  So when this popularity fades and religions are revealed as mere cults, the world will see just how faithless religious followers really are.  You followers still deny this.  If I knew of a way to profit from such information asymmetry, then I would be one wealthy atheist.

 

 

 

Fun fact: The burden of proof lies with he who makes the claim.  It does not lie with the atheists (though we have no problem with carrying it).


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#51

Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:59 AM

living for yourself is not synonymous with selfishness.

we all live for ourselves.

 

you eat food and breathe air. you live for yourself.

living for yourself means providing for your family and being a good person. if you thought that living for yourself meant something evil or selfish, then that's an emotional issue for you to reconcile.

That's not what I'm saying. Those are just basic needs. By living for yourself, I meant that once a person acquires all of that, they don't have time for anything else including God. They never put God into their lives, thus is selfish. Because at the end of the day, it is God who provides us all with what we have. He allows us to have food, shelter, and clothes. But not acknowledging that is selfish.


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#52

Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:31 AM Edited by Triple Vacuum Seal, 18 June 2014 - 07:49 AM.

@above

 

Can you produce proof that he provides all of this?  Or is this just hearsay and emotionally-fueled conjecture?

 

 

Otherwise, there ain't anything selfish about refusing to submit, embrace ignorance, neglect scientific evidence, unconditionally worship, thank, mutilate one's genitals for (AKA circumcision), celebrate, or even acknowledge someone else's imaginary friend.  In fact, it is more so the other way around if you are expecting someone to nearly enslave themselves just to legitimate your own unchallenged, unverifiable, and delusional claims.  That's as selfish as it gets to be honest.  Yet, not a sin by way some twisted logic.


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#53

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:18 PM

My mother told me that when I was a young child I told her the story of how before I was born I was walking in heaven, holding hands with Jesus, waiting for God to choose my parents. 

 

Not long ago I had what I think was a dream, but so vivid and clear that it might as well have been a memory, of the very beginnings of life on earth, on a molecular level. 

 

The idea of a God is compelling, but when I look at the world as a whole, the cynical side of me see this as religious trapping. Science has never been so ambiguous with me. 

 

But saying this, Science is superfluous, changing like fashion - and there is so much that it cannot explain that I am forced, as a Scientist, to leave room for God. 


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#54

Posted 08 August 2014 - 05:06 PM

I see it like this, in order for there to be an afterlife life there has be a before life. So, I wasn't in existence before my life began then I wouldn't be in existence after it ends.


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#55

Posted 11 August 2014 - 09:04 PM

I see it like this, in order for there to be an afterlife life there has be a before life. So, I wasn't in existence before my life began then I wouldn't be in existence after it ends.

you know, that's actually a really good point.

 

religious people (regardless of the specifics) pretty much agree that there is a "soul" within all of us.

this "soul" is what supersedes the human body and travels to the "afterlife" (either Heaven or Hell, usually) when we die.

 

but this whole idea just adds one problem on top of another problem. it doesn't resolve anything.

because if the "soul" is the thing that travels to the "afterlife," then what is the nature of the soul? did the soul exist before it was allocated to a human body? if so, where do the souls come from? did they reside in a "pre-life" somewhere? is there a place that's not Heaven and not Hell but it's not Purgatory either? do the souls have memories of this time they spent in "pre-life?"

 

religious people never consider any of these questions. they never consider any logic in their ideas.

the more questions you ask about the "afterlife," the less sense any of it makes.


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#56

Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:30 AM

Yeah, no religion has EVER considered the notion of a life prior to the one you currently have. You two are so smart, after centuries of doubt religion has finally been dealt a final blow.

Thank you happpy11 and El_diablo, truly now gott ist tot.

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#57

Posted 12 August 2014 - 07:06 AM Edited by El_Diablo, 12 August 2014 - 07:12 AM.

I said "pretty much" and "usually."

the Big Three most dominant religions on Earth which influence over 3/4 of the entire globe don't really address any kind of 'prior' life. it's pretty obvious that I was speaking to religion in general and not the few examples which are the exception to this rule.

 

at least it would have been obvious if you weren't so trigger happy for me.

either way, thanks for your contribution to the discussion.


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#58

Posted 14 August 2014 - 08:40 AM

Today I saw a pigeon crossing a road in a straight line on a pedestrian crossing from boardwalk to boardwalk.

 

I thought, either pigeons are stupid and walk when they could simply fly — happens all the time if you observe pigeons for a while — or reincarnation is true and that was simply a guy that came back as a pigeon and was crossing the road for old times sake. 

 

 

;)

 

 

I've been raised in a basically an agnostic/atheist family in a catholic country, even though my dad slips into a bit of catholicism from time to time (aging does that to you).

Never rationally believed in an afterlife but of course I'd love to continue in some form after death.

That's pretty much a great benefit sold by major religions.

Lately I've been thinking a lot about this and other matters and I became a bit more open to all possibilities... maybe because I'm aging. :D


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#59

Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:33 PM

I think religion,the idea of a god,and the idea of an afterlife are human constructs, because they only apply to humans. Heck, I don't even think we have a clear definition of a god. I find it illogical for there to be an afterlife for a specific species, if somebody believes in an afterlife, then they should believe that all living things have an afterlife including the bacteria that resides in their mouth.

helloworld
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#60

Posted 14 August 2014 - 05:53 PM

There's no scientific evidence that there is an afterlife after we die, so no, I don't believe in it. I think death feels exactly like it felt on the 15 August 1564. Does anyone remember that time. No we don't because we didn't exist. Same thing with death.

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