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The Afterlife

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Secura
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#1

Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:00 PM

Right let's get down to business, firstly the reason I bothered to make this thread's because people don't seem to realise how to make a thread that's up to standard down here in the Debates & Discussion section of the forums. I say this because quite evidently there's been little to no effort put in the other thread's original post discussing the same thing, regardless let's get this underway.

The afterlife itself has always been a mystery to me, I've never really thought that I was a religious person as religion didn't really play too large of a role in my childhood and ironically enough I for one consider that to be a blessing. Religion to me seems to be a very personal thing, people trying hard to justify their existence by coming up with laughable and stupid excuses so that they don't have to worry about any of the big issues in life.

Religion at a very base level's a way to shield and protect yourself from the frightening truth, and that truth is that we honestly haven't got a clue as to how we got here, nor why we are here. There are theories to support the fact that the Big Bang could've happened but there's still no conclusive evidence matter, though I think I prefer the idea that we came from a massive explosion over the possibility that an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being decided one day that he'd build a universe.

The idea of a God or Gods to me fits the mindset of someone not of this century, why ? Because quite simply it's rather stupid to suggest that one thing controls all things, but of course you can't see that thing, nor touch it, nor feel it, nor even try to understand it because it most likely doesn't exist.

The whole idea for a God most likely popped up one day in a tribal village thousands of years ago when someone was wondering what made us, why are we here. The reason for this I find that is that it's much easier to say "God did it" rather than actually finding out and investigating such a thing, but back then such an investigation couldn't have taken place, Humanity was not yet a point where it was able to accept the fact that there might not even be a God.

A lot of early civilizations based themselves around the ideas of multiple Gods that lived among them, a great example of this would the Mayan people, one of the earliest and most advanced civilizations in South America used to sacrifice people to their Gods to keep themselves safe from harm, for example one city that I researched went so far as to perform regular sacrifices to the 'Water God' by throwing people into this massive water filled pit that he supposedly lived under keeping their water and crops safe.

Many of my friends who are religious would make the argument that the Holy Bible contains a bunch of stories that aren't meant to be taken seriously but rather are supposed to impart lessons of knowledge, kindness and acceptance upon others. I have number issues with this argument the first would be that if such a being existed his knowledge would greatly surpass our own so why in the hell give all of these religious views to people that lived in the Middle East nearly three thousand years ago.

Surely it would've smarter for him to have given his gift of knowledge to us in our current society or even further along the timeline rather then imparting such knowledge on societies that could and did quite easily misinterpret it for being truthful in everything it said. There's just no logical way for us to say that the God of the Christian Bible is one hundred percent real and the same goes for all Gods.

I suppose I'd label myself more as Anti-Theist/Atheist if I had to, but overall I'm unsure as to what to think. Though we have no proof that the Gods in all of the current popular religions are real and what they say is true one thing remains certain, until someone can prove that the Afterlife isn't real then there's not really any conclusive reason for us to say that there isn't one.

So go ahead, debate and discuss the possibilities of an afterlife and your views on it, I'm looking forward to watching the fireworks.
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WhatsStrength
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#2

Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:30 AM

Shameful re-post of my opinion from the old thread.

I haven't decided my stance on it yet. There's no compelling argument for either side. Part of me wants there to be and afterlife, as I fear non-existence/the unknown. On the other hand, if there is an afterlife, you will eventually go mad from the endless tedium and praise of God, and you're constantly being supervised.

Christopher Hitchens' view on North Korea pretty much sums up how I feel.

QUOTE (Hitchslap)
"Religious belief is a totalitarian belief.

"It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea.

"Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung.

"It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved....(pause)

"But at least you can f*cking die and leave North Korea!"

Zugzwang
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#3

Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:15 AM Edited by Zugzwang, 18 April 2013 - 07:18 AM.

Edit:

I'm new. I had a well formatted reply.. Tried to fix it... Accidentally deleted everything. I don't want to go back and do it all again right now. Damn this is frustrating.

Sorry.

Cyper
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#4

Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:53 AM

Lightning Strike, you wrote: ''[...]someone can prove that the Afterlife isn't real then there's not really any conclusive reason for us to say that there isn't one.''

I don't agree with this - at all.

There is no solid proof that Santa doesn't exist. There is no proof that trolls doesn't exist (not internet trolls, but trolls as in small living creatures running around in the forrest according to the Scandinavian folklore). There is no proof that Russels's teapot doesn't orbits the sun somewhere in space.

Just because something can't be proved doesn't mean it's true, or even that it is likely to be true.

Regarding afterlife, it is heavily based on the assumption that we have a soul, which have been disproven both philosophically and scientifically.


What is more likely, and what we indeed have lots of evidence of, is that our body (including our brain) slowly starts to rotten after we've died.

Secura
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#5

Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (Cyper @ Thursday, Apr 25 2013, 09:53)
Lightning Strike, you wrote: ''[...]someone can prove that the Afterlife isn't real then there's not really any conclusive reason for us to say that there isn't one.''

I don't agree with this - at all.

There is no solid proof that Santa doesn't exist. There is no proof that trolls doesn't exist (not internet trolls, but trolls as in small living creatures running around in the forrest according to the Scandinavian folklore). There is no proof that Russels's teapot doesn't orbits the sun somewhere in space.

Just because something can't be proved doesn't mean it's true, or even that it is likely to be true.

Regarding afterlife, it is heavily based on the assumption that we have a soul, which have been disproven both philosophically and scientifically.


What is more likely, and what we indeed have lots of evidence of, is that our body (including our brain) slowly starts to rotten after we've died.

While you're entirely right to think that way we shouldn't completely throw away the possibility of some sort of afterlife, after all no-one's ever come back to tell us whether there is or isn't one.

Perhaps I should've been more straightforward with my personal beliefs on the afterlife, I'm an atheist. What I'm trying to get at is nobody can truly say if there's an afterlife or not and while there's no evidence for such a thing people are indeed entitled to believe in what they wish.

Maybe one day there'll be proof for an afterlife, though until that day dawns you're right in choosing that point of view considering that it is the most logical. I don't lean towards the thought that there may be an afterlife but rather simply think that there's certainly the possibility that one could in theory exist, and before you say anything no I'm not even going to bother trying to justify the existence of a soul.

They're quite obviously the invention of a human mind and nothing more since our emotions, thoughts and feelings all come from our mind and not some sort of invisible spirit hidden deep inside of us. Once again though people are entitled to believe in what they want and should they wish to turn their backs on all the evidence that says otherwise who are we to say that they shouldn't.

Yes I suppose you could make the argument that their childish beliefs should be left to die though that hardly makes us look like the nicest of guys now does it. In the end though you could spend days debating the existence of an afterlife and it currently remains a negative, something that is improvable and hypothetically possible.

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#6

Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:34 AM

I believe in the afterlife of heaven or hell, because of my religious beliefs. But whether it is real or not, I guess we'll never really know until that time comes.


Secura
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#7

Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:15 PM

QUOTE (Kobalt__ @ Monday, Apr 29 2013, 01:34)
I believe in the afterlife of heaven or hell, because of my religious beliefs. But whether it is real or not, I guess we'll never really know until that time comes.

May I ask why you choose to believe what you believe in and also what it is you believe?

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#8

Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:32 AM

QUOTE (Kobalt__ @ Monday, Apr 29 2013, 01:34)
I believe in the afterlife of heaven or hell, because of my religious beliefs. But whether it is real or not, I guess we'll never really know until that time comes.

Prepare to be completely destroyed by Lightning strike. (Not that I want him to)

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#9

Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:03 AM

What afterlife are you not sure about? The Christian one? The Muslim one? The Norse Mythology one?

And if you say "The Christian one", why? The only reason that's the most realistic is because you were born in a country whose primary religion is Christianity/Catholicism. If you were born in Iran you wouldn't believe in that god, if you were born in Delhi you wouldn't believe in that god, if you were born in Africa in the 9th Century you almost certainly wouldn't believe in that god.

Do you see what I mean?

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#10

Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE (Kobalt__ @ Monday, Apr 29 2013, 01:34)
I believe in the afterlife of heaven or hell, because of my religious beliefs. But whether it is real or not, I guess we'll never really know until that time comes.

You say you believe in afterlife, heaven or hell, but you are not sure if it's real or not.

Are you sure you fully believe in it then?

And why do you beleive in it? What makes it convincing? Because it must be based on some sort of rational thoughts.

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#11

Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:57 PM

The idea that you're going to heaven or hell is kinda wrong, especially coming from a god. You can't just be judged eternaly because of what you did in a limited life. For example, if you screwed up in school, you'll be "punished" for that, but there's always a chance to fix/improve the situation, you're not deemed a failure for life.

For me, when you die you just, no longer exist. Try to think about it as the kind of state when you're still not born to this world. It's like an eternal dream, but you don't care/do/see/hear anything, just a dark empty inconscious feel.

The Pizza Delivery Guy
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#12

Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:06 AM

I'm not entirely sure what it is I want to believe, let alone actually believe in it.

For example, let's take a look at Christianity.

Christian Heaven/Hell: This gives both a good and bad side to the way you act in life. I like the idea of Heaven, since all the work you put forth in your Earthly time gives you a chance at eternal joy! I resent any idea of Hell, but let's look at it too. A place for bad people to go to burn for eternity. Doesn't sound fun at all. I really hope it doesn't exist, because I'm on a one way ticket to Hell from what I've done so far.

But with the Christian Heaven, there's one thing that has always frozen me in fear. Eternity. Think about the word. That's is how much time you would spend in Heaven should you go there. It would NEVER, EVER end. You would continue to exist forever, and no matter what you do it would never end. I keep using the same words to describe it, but that's the way that I look at it and that's how it instills that fear into me. I just think about how it would go on and on... I'd actually want it to stop.

But that's just me, if what you like is never ending bliss, then by all means.

I'm leaning most towards Valhalla as the Heaven I want to go to. Perhaps I'll become a Viking.

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#13

Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:37 AM

If you take a gander at the Universe, you see how everything is cyclical in nature. Since we are very much a part of this Universe, and not some disconnected audience to its workings, but in fact very much a display of those workings, the most logical explanation to me seems that my life is also cyclical in nature. I firmly believe that the Universe is Life, and we are simply microcosms within the macrocosm, travelling through the cycle of birth and death.
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#14

Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:03 AM

QUOTE (The Pizza Delivery Guy @ Saturday, May 25 2013, 06:06)
I'm not entirely sure what it is I want to believe, let alone actually believe in it.

For example, let's take a look at Christianity.

Christian Heaven/Hell: This gives both a good and bad side to the way you act in life. I like the idea of Heaven, since all the work you put forth in your Earthly time gives you a chance at eternal joy! I resent any idea of Hell, but let's look at it too. A place for bad people to go to burn for eternity. Doesn't sound fun at all. I really hope it doesn't exist, because I'm on a one way ticket to Hell from what I've done so far.

But with the Christian Heaven, there's one thing that has always frozen me in fear. Eternity. Think about the word. That's is how much time you would spend in Heaven should you go there. It would NEVER, EVER end. You would continue to exist forever, and no matter what you do it would never end. I keep using the same words to describe it, but that's the way that I look at it and that's how it instills that fear into me. I just think about how it would go on and on... I'd actually want it to stop.

But that's just me, if what you like is never ending bliss, then by all means.

I'm leaning most towards Valhalla as the Heaven I want to go to. Perhaps I'll become a Viking.

Why believe?

Isn't evidence and logical truths more important?

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#15

Posted 26 May 2013 - 05:26 PM

QUOTE (Cyper @ Sunday, May 26 2013, 03:03)
Isn't evidence and logical truths more important?

Humans are rarely logical: evidence and truth mean about as much as anything else out there to any person. Saying you value truth is easy because no matter what you always think you're right. You always think you're true. That kind of arrogance is more human than a reliance on logic, truth or evidence.


The concept of what comes after life is curious. I tend to veer into thinking about how close to death I can or will come before I finally go for real. Hasn't done me much good to think about it. I've always tried to figure it as an inevitability like so many on the internet say they do. Never has worked. I'm just as afraid and confused about the concept of dying as I ever was. Only thing that's changed is my ability to live or enjoy living, I guess. I still can't come to grips with the very definition of being dead.

I've actually had lots of moments where I get caught up so much in the present that I want to see what happens if I just end it there. It's not that I'm unafraid of death by any means, I just get anxious about it and have more of a can-do attitude than usual.
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#16

Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:54 AM

I always thought that fundamentally the belief in an afterlife was founded in benign arrogance. The arrogance is that humanity is so special, so very unique, that there must be a continuation of life after that emotional end. Or embarrassing end, if you die at the hands of your toaster or while having sex...

My point is this - we're certainly the most salient and advanced species we know of, and are likely to ever know of, but that doesn't mean that an entire other layer of the Universe exists for us to continue in, eternally and blissfully, because it makes us feel better. The structure, almost perfect, idea of spiritual preservation would imply some sort of mechanism behind it, which raises further notions of a Universal order, geared in our favour. These flights of fancy shock me with their false simplicity, and while I won't be as derisive about the concept as I would of a God, I'm still highly sceptical.

Let's not forget that the observable Universe cares not an iota about morality, justice, fairness, or even continuity for continuity's sake. There have been innumerable great men, but the Universe cared little for whether they lived on or died. Of course it didn't, it's an it!
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#17

Posted 27 May 2013 - 04:03 PM

QUOTE (Cyper @ Sunday, May 26 2013, 02:03)
QUOTE (The Pizza Delivery Guy @ Saturday, May 25 2013, 06:06)
I'm not entirely sure what it is I want to believe, let alone actually believe in it.

For example, let's take a look at Christianity.

Christian Heaven/Hell: This gives both a good and bad side to the way you act in life. I like the idea of Heaven, since all the work you put forth in your Earthly time gives you a chance at eternal joy! I resent any idea of Hell, but let's look at it too. A place for bad people to go to burn for eternity. Doesn't sound fun at all. I really hope it doesn't exist, because I'm on a one way ticket to Hell from what I've done so far.

But with the Christian Heaven, there's one thing that has always frozen me in fear. Eternity. Think about the word. That's is how much time you would spend in Heaven should you go there. It would NEVER, EVER end. You would continue to exist forever, and no matter what you do it would never end. I keep using the same words to describe it, but that's the way that I look at it and that's how it instills that fear into me. I just think about how it would go on and on... I'd actually want it to stop.

But that's just me, if what you like is never ending bliss, then by all means.

I'm leaning most towards Valhalla as the Heaven I want to go to. Perhaps I'll become a Viking.

Why believe?

Isn't evidence and logical truths more important?

Well, I don't believe. Viewing evidence and deciding fact from fiction is much more important.

I'm just saying if I did believe, I'd want to go to Valhalla.

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#18

Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

QUOTE (The Pizza Delivery Guy @ Monday, May 27 2013, 16:03)
QUOTE (Cyper @ Sunday, May 26 2013, 02:03)
QUOTE (The Pizza Delivery Guy @ Saturday, May 25 2013, 06:06)
I'm not entirely sure what it is I want to believe, let alone actually believe in it.

For example, let's take a look at Christianity.

Christian Heaven/Hell: This gives both a good and bad side to the way you act in life. I like the idea of Heaven, since all the work you put forth in your Earthly time gives you a chance at eternal joy! I resent any idea of Hell, but let's look at it too. A place for bad people to go to burn for eternity. Doesn't sound fun at all. I really hope it doesn't exist, because I'm on a one way ticket to Hell from what I've done so far.

But with the Christian Heaven, there's one thing that has always frozen me in fear. Eternity. Think about the word. That's is how much time you would spend in Heaven should you go there. It would NEVER, EVER end. You would continue to exist forever, and no matter what you do it would never end. I keep using the same words to describe it, but that's the way that I look at it and that's how it instills that fear into me. I just think about how it would go on and on... I'd actually want it to stop.

But that's just me, if what you like is never ending bliss, then by all means.

I'm leaning most towards Valhalla as the Heaven I want to go to. Perhaps I'll become a Viking.

Why believe?

Isn't evidence and logical truths more important?

Well, I don't believe. Viewing evidence and deciding fact from fiction is much more important.

I'm just saying if I did believe, I'd want to go to Valhalla.

I agree, norse mythology gods are more realistic than just one loner god.

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#19

Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:34 PM Edited by El Zilcho, 28 May 2013 - 10:36 PM.

QUOTE (Rofl50 @ Tuesday, May 28 2013, 17:23)
QUOTE (The Pizza Delivery Guy @ Monday, May 27 2013, 16:03)
QUOTE (Cyper @ Sunday, May 26 2013, 02:03)
QUOTE (The Pizza Delivery Guy @ Saturday, May 25 2013, 06:06)
I'm not entirely sure what it is I want to believe, let alone actually believe in it.

For example, let's take a look at Christianity.

Christian Heaven/Hell: This gives both a good and bad side to the way you act in life. I like the idea of Heaven, since all the work you put forth in your Earthly time gives you a chance at eternal joy! I resent any idea of Hell, but let's look at it too. A place for bad people to go to burn for eternity. Doesn't sound fun at all. I really hope it doesn't exist, because I'm on a one way ticket to Hell from what I've done so far.

But with the Christian Heaven, there's one thing that has always frozen me in fear. Eternity. Think about the word. That's is how much time you would spend in Heaven should you go there. It would NEVER, EVER end. You would continue to exist forever, and no matter what you do it would never end. I keep using the same words to describe it, but that's the way that I look at it and that's how it instills that fear into me. I just think about how it would go on and on... I'd actually want it to stop.

But that's just me, if what you like is never ending bliss, then by all means.

I'm leaning most towards Valhalla as the Heaven I want to go to. Perhaps I'll become a Viking.

Why believe?

Isn't evidence and logical truths more important?

Well, I don't believe. Viewing evidence and deciding fact from fiction is much more important.

I'm just saying if I did believe, I'd want to go to Valhalla.

I agree, norse mythology gods are more realistic than just one loner god.

Why so? At the very least a monotheistic God has a little claim to Occam's Razor, improving its case - Norse Mythology should be at least as unbelievable? There is a climactic super battle at the end of history, that's more absurd than a single God, the former actually requires God killing wolves.

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#20

Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:37 AM

QUOTE (Lightning Strike @ Wednesday, Mar 13 2013, 17:00)
The idea of a God or Gods to me fits the mindset of someone not of this century, why ? Because quite simply it's rather stupid to suggest that one thing controls all things...

But your argument is a bit flawed considering that not everbody who believes in God believes that he controls everything.

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#21

Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:38 AM

QUOTE (Rofl50 @ Tuesday, May 28 2013, 16:23)
I agree, norse mythology gods are more realistic than just one loner god.

The idea of a God or Gods in general in unrealistic as it implies that things in a sense could exist beyond of, or prior to existence itself and that's simply impossible. You exist ergo existence exists, there's simply no sidestepping around this one. However, if we were to look beyond this rather large (and that's putting it gently) logical fallacy then there are many ways in which one omnipotent power would make more sense then a larger number of less powerful deity's.

The idea that an all knowing, all powerful being runs and created the universe seems to make a lot more sense then giving insane amounts of power to a group of beings that know not even half of what the omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent being does seems rather strange. Certainly there are aspects of Norse mythology that seem more appealing but that does not lend it any factual or logical accuracy.

To be honest as I've previously stated Gods in general don't make a lot of sense and even if there were to be some divine being out there in the universe I hardly doubt that he'd have existed before the universe or have had any help whatsoever in its creation. For me I think it's entirely probable that the Universe itself is God and by extension it needs no creator, it's entirely probable that the universe is infinite and simply goes through some sort of vast expansion and then contraction stage every few hundred billion years thus giving the illusion of it being new rather than the much more likely option of it being eternal.

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#22

Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:13 AM

Well, my personal belief is that there is an afterlife. It's eternal life as presented in the Bible. Coming from somebody that believes in Christianity, I believe that there two places a person will go. Heaven or hell. There is no in between. I understand that people in other countries and cultures have different beliefs and were most likely brought up differently, but that's still no excuse though. Everyone has or had an experience with the gospel. Either they accept and believe, or don't. If they accept the message of Jesus Christ and believe, they are written into the Book of Life and when they die, they'll be with God in heaven. Now, of course, this doesn't give them a chance to act however they want. They still have to live right and try their best to be pure. Christians still have to be an example. Now, for those who haven't accepted the message yet, are up for a rude awakening when they die. Because they'll appear before God and His throne and they'll be judged. In fact, we'll all be judged. Those that haven't accepted Jesus Christ are subject to hell for eternity.

 

So.. yes, I believe in an afterlife. This isn't because I'm fearful or I was brainwashed. I simply believe because it is the truth. Jesus Christ is the truth. There is no other way.


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#23

Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:16 AM

Why do I have the feeling that you're simply trying to antagonize people? Regardless, why would you say that there's no other way for things to be when we live in a universe of limitless potential and possibilities? Why force yourself into believing a book written mostly by warlords, tyrants and other sick deranged people thousands of years ago when there's far more to be learned from actually taking a look at the science behind what makes reality itself so amazing?

 

Yes, I do realise the futility of my actions here as you're clearly either trolling or just too stupid to think about how ridiculous the scriptures from most ancient religions actually are.

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#24

Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:45 AM

Why force yourself into believing a book written mostly by warlords, tyrants and other sick deranged people thousands of years ago

Because that's what faith is; believing without proof.

Time is irrelevant; in many years we may be seen as tyrannical and deranged...

 

Even if the Bible's development was overseen and modified by people who had an agenda; the individual gospels themselves were all written by men with the sincerest intent in their hearts. Nothing wrong with choosing to believe the words of St. Francis of Assisi.

 

Now, I'm not exactly that devout myself, but I did study & fully read the holy scriptures of my inherited religion. And while there are a lot of "devout" who act as sinners yet pray like saints, there are also a lot of people who follow the examples & lessons the gospels try to teach...what's wrong with that, no matter antiquated it may seem?

 

For some...finding the exact 1's & 0's of everything takes away the wonder of the world. Having everything reduced to wavelengths and equations is not something some people want...why not let them carry on as so?


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#25

Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:55 AM

There is no other way.

now that's the spirit of D&D right there.

definitely worthy of bumping a year old topic.

 

we might as well fold and start a new thread on the subject.

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Secura
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#26

Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:04 AM Edited by Secura, 13 June 2014 - 04:10 AM.

Because that's what faith is; believing without proof.

No, faith is having absolute trust or confidence in something, regardless of what level of proof precedes or exceeds its introduction. Just because religion in all of its forms happens to have a severe lack of any evidence to support its claims, empirical or otherwise doesn't change a thing about the definition of faith itself, it just means that the word's actual meaning has started to be forgotten and thusly it's currently being misused to mean something it definitely does not.

 

Time is irrelevant; in many years we may be seen as tyrannical and deranged...

I have no doubt that we will, and that more than anything is why time is entirely relevant to the situation, no-one should take the words of some long-dead egomaniac to heart, whether they were spoken with the utmost sincerity or not is entirely irrelevant. If you were to traverse the sands of time and appear in say 800BC do you really believe that anyone would believe that the Earth actually orbited the Sun? That the Earth itself was spherical and not in-fact rectangular or cubed in nature? Yet despite the sincerity that you spoke with and the sincerity with which they upheld their own beliefs, it doesn't change the fact that the Earth does and is those things regardless of what they or you think.

 

To be clear: It simply is, your belief is not required.

 

Now, I'm not exactly that devout myself, but I did study & fully read the holy scriptures of my inherited religion. And while there are a lot of "devout" who act as sinners yet pray like saints, there are also a lot of people who follow the examples & lessons the gospels try to teach...what's wrong with that, no matter antiquated it may seem?

Because it is antiquated, there is no seeming in this. Whilst I do agree with you Xyn that people should be free to interpret any form of what they consider gospel however they wish, I do not think that it is a good idea for them to do so with two-thousand-year-old desert scriblings. Now whilst some of the lessons these old scriptures dish out aren't that bad, they're nothing that a five-year-old in modern day society can't grasp the moment they come to the realization that the world doesn't revolve around them and that there are other people out there that you should be both mindful and respectful of. 

 

Seriously any of the commandments that still apply today aren't exactly that hard to grasp.


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#27

Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:14 AM Edited by El_Diablo, 13 June 2014 - 04:16 AM.

For some...finding the exact 1's & 0's of everything takes away the wonder of the world. Having everything reduced to wavelengths and equations is not something some people want...why not let them carry on as so?

 

yeah this is the only thing we have to address.

 

the fact of the matter is that - unfortunately - we cannot let them 'carry on' as so.

because it would be nice if they did, but they don't.

 

ultimately the religiously devout cannot keep it to themselves.

and it wouldn't be an issue if they stuck to proselytizing but they don't. religious tolerance means the continual encroachment of religious dogma and ideology into places that it does not belong where it can do real harm to people and society. the simple example is the notion that "equal time" must somehow be given to "creation" theories of biology as well as the established scientific consensus. and while the denial of basic scientific principles should be alarming enough, it spills over into much more scary examples like the rapid spread of AIDS across sub-Saharan Africa because Catholic missionaries preach against the practice of safe-sex.

 

I would be more than happy to let them carry on.

but they won't stop barking and gnawing at the end of their leash. it's affecting the rest of us in the real world.

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Xyn
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#28

Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:28 AM

No, faith is having absolute trust or confidence in something, regardless of what level of proof precedes or exceeds its introduction. Just because religion in all of its forms happens to have a severe lack of any evidence to support its claims, empirical or otherwise doesn't change a thing about the definition of faith itself, it just means that the word's actual meaning has started to be forgotten and thusly it's currently being misused to mean something it definitely does not.

You can't write with such certainty; that's the beauty of this subject...it's all subjective.

 

That said, that's exactly what he's doing; he has complete trust and confidence in Jesus Christ and what his religion has instilled in him. That's his faith.

 

 

I have no doubt that we will, and that more than anything is why time is entirely relevant to the situation, no-one should take the words of some long-dead egomaniac to heart, whether they were spoken with the utmost sincerity or not is entirely irrelevant. If you were to traverse the sands of time and appear in say 800BC do you really believe that anyone would believe that the Earth actually orbited the Sun? That the Earth itself was spherical and not in-fact rectangular or cubed in nature? Yet despite the sincerity that you spoke with and the sincerity with which they upheld their own beliefs, it doesn't change the fact that the Earth does and is those things regardless of what they or you think.

 

To be clear: It simply is, your belief is not required.

There is some wisdom in everything...and experience.

Even if it comes from the worst megalomaniac ever; there is always something worthy to extract from it. Same with these scriptures. You can take them at face value and denounce them as antiquated, hateful and irrelevant to the times (and trust me, being who I am, I have no problems hating the book of Judges, Deuteronomy, etc) or you can see the lesson they were trying to get across, extract the good from it and filter out the rest...

 

Whether anyone believed me or not about the sun doesn't matter; my sincerity, in this case...was right. Who's to say there's a forgotten truth in all these books we now ignore?

 

 

Because it is antiquated, there is no seeming in this. Whilst I do agree with you Xyn that people should be free to interpret any form of what they consider gospel however they wish, I do not think that it is a good idea for them to do so with two-thousand-year-old desert scriblings. Now whilst some of the lessons these old scriptures dish out aren't that bad, they're nothing that a five-year-old in modern day society can't grasp the moment they come to the realization that the world doesn't revolve around them and that there are other people out there that you should be both mindful and respectful of. 

 

Seriously any of the commandments that still apply today aren't exactly that hard to grasp.

Why not? If you wrote a book about whatever subject, why should it be deemed wrong in a few dozen centuries? These books are not trying to transmit scientific fact like Hippocrates was in his early anatomy teachings, but rather general teachings as a whole, teachings that cannot be rendered obsolete by time. Moral & Values are not something that will change. People may take new stances on them, but that does not make their foundations any less firm.

Yes, a five-year old may learn many of these lessons, but as adults you cannot deny we forget, or better yet, choose to ignore them.

I am not saying these teachings should be shoved down our throats, but it's nice to know that they are there to remind us of what we know; things that can help us in our goal for wholesome lives.

 

I think all 10 commandments apply today. Don't see stealing being accepted or honoring our fathers going out of style any time soon.

 

 

 

 

Now, I am not trying to come across as pro-organized religion, quite the opposite, I loathe any and all organized religions because they soon become tainted by power and avarice....

But I see no harm and support people who look up to these teachings and try their best to live by them in earnest.

 

 

the fact of the matter is that - unfortunately - we cannot let them 'carry on' as so.

because it would be nice if they did, but they don't.

 

ultimately the religiously devout cannot keep it to themselves.

and it wouldn't be an issue if they stuck to proselytizing but they don't. religious tolerance means the continual encroachment of religious dogma and ideology into places that it does not belong where it can do real harm to people and society. the simple example is the notion that "equal time" must somehow be given to "creation" theories of biology as well as the established scientific consensus. and while the denial of basic scientific principles should be alarming enough, it spills over into much more scary examples like the rapid spread of AIDS across sub-Saharan Africa because Catholic missionaries preach against the practice of safe-sex.

 

I would be more than happy to let them carry on.

but they won't stop barking and gnawing at the end of their leash. it's affecting the rest of us in the real world.

 

True, many do wish to communicate their personal beliefs unto others, and I despise that.

 

But what about, for example, that old lady who goes to church every day in prayer? Who rather than read or care to know about whether pluto is still considered a planet or not or how many galaxies there are is content with knowing that we will never know the true ways of the vast cosmos?

 

When i said what you quoted; I wasn't referring to "bible-thumpers", but to the people who practice their religion and faith privately.


Secura
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#29

Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:03 AM Edited by Secura, 13 June 2014 - 05:18 AM.

You can't write with such certainty; that's the beauty of this subject...it's all subjective.

The definition of words really isn't. 

 

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There is some wisdom in everything...and experience.

 

Even if it comes from the worst megalomaniac ever; there is always something worthy to extract from it. Same with these scriptures. You can take them at face value and denounce them as antiquated, hateful and irrelevant to the times (and trust me, being who I am, I have no problems hating the book of Judges, Deuteronomy, etc) or you can see the lesson they were trying to get across, extract the good from it and filter out the rest...

We already do that Xyn. It's known as common sense, and once again it's not something that you have to go reading through ancient texts to understand, the fact of the matter is the way the books portray these lessons are antiquated, hateful and irrelevant to the modern age. You can learn so much more about life by spending three seconds on your phone than you could if you spent your life re-reading fanatical scriptures.

 

Whether anyone believed me or not about the sun doesn't matter; my sincerity, in this case...was right. Who's to say there's a forgotten truth in all these books we now ignore?

Who's to say? The hundreds of millions of people who've spent their entire lives looking for answers inside of them, the entirety of modern science and understanding. I could go on, but I really don't wish to insult any of our intelligence by doing so.

 

Why not? If you wrote a book about whatever subject, why should it be deemed wrong in a few dozen centuries? These books are not trying to transmit scientific fact like Hippocrates was in his early anatomy teachings, but rather general teachings as a whole, teachings that cannot be rendered obsolete by time. Moral & Values are not something that will change. 

If I wrote a book about any subject in a few dozen centuries I should expect most of the beings alive at the time will gawk and laugh at what words I put to paper, and as technology advances Xyn all things will be rendered obsolete, if they weren't already inherently so. Come the twenty-third century it's highly likely that every member of the human race will have upgraded their once feeble and tiny minds to things that are literally beyond our current comprehension, and at that point even general teachings as we the Human race know them and have understood them for the past hundred-thousand or so years will change inherently. 

 

Yes, a five-year old may learn many of these lessons, but as adults you cannot deny we forget, or better yet, choose to ignore them.

We forget currently and most of these things we forget with good reason, because we are human, though in the future who is to say that we shall even communicate in ways which will allow us to forget, or even remember in the first place?

 

I am not saying these teachings should be shoved down our throats, but it's nice to know that they are there to remind us of what we know; things that can help us in our goal for wholesome lives.

Yes, I don't deny that some of the basic teachings of life are good to have, but these don't even stem from religion, they stem from an in-built goodness inside of us that we couldn't define, so we placed this work onto that of religion and God rather than take credit for what is an undeniable, and may I say a fundamental quality of mankind, our ability to empathize.

 

I think all 10 commandments apply today. Don't see stealing being accepted or honoring our fathers going out of style any time soon.

Everything is subject to change, but while we're at it, what issues in the modern world applies the other six-hundred-and-three commandments? Or did you forget about those?


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#30

Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:54 AM

Fireman Sam- please read the D&D rules before posting again. Your two contributions so far are well below the acceptable standard in here.

Carmen!- doesn't the idea that God would condemn individuals to an eternity of suffering for merely exercising free will and rationality strike you as anything but benevolent? I mean, what kind of a deity basically says "right, I've given you all the power to make your own decisions. Now I'm going to sit back and watch you all, and any of you that don't decide voluntarily to believe in me despite the complete absence of evidence to support the idea of my existence are basically f*cked."? If that's God's idea of benevolence, he's not worthy of worship.
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