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Raavi
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#271

Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:54 PM Edited by Raavi, 31 October 2013 - 05:10 PM.

Again, Raavi, I believe you're simply ignorant to the truth...

http://en.wikipedia....l_race_concepts

Unless we're somehow able to hit a giant "reset" button that suddenly equalized everyone at square one, we'll be living with the ghosts of our racist pasts for decades to come. Institutionalized discrimination is far more insidious than you seem to accept.

There's nothing wrong with being an idealist, but you can't found it on ignorance.

 

 

 

I'm not alone in my strive for an equal society many individuals from all kinds of different backgrounds share my beliefs and hopes.

 

During times of slavery and black oppression, people of colour as they were then not so affectionally named, were oppressed to a vile extent, yet they kept striving for rights and freedoms equal to those of their very white oppressors, they fought for equality not a race based divide. But whilst there might be equality in the sense of freedoms and rights to a certain extent. There is no equality in our perception, which is a cancer on our modern day society. Black and white people are still considered inherently different, which brings a plethora of unnecessary socio-economic ramifications and engenders a hate culture.

 

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

 

- Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Did I say it's a matter of flipping a switch? No, I very much realise that it's embroiled in our today's society and that true equality is a gradual process. As was and still is generalising tolerance when it comes to the LGBT community. But just because it's not easy doesn't mean we should simply ignore it. Rome wasn't build in a day. 

 

Like Nelson Mandela ones said.

 

"No one is born hating another person because of the colour his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.


Melchior
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#272

Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:58 PM

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that a raceless society is ideal. 

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Reaper Madness
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#273

Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:16 PM Edited by Reaper Madness, 31 October 2013 - 06:16 PM.

 

 

 

Whites live in the suburbs while Blacks live in the ghetto and now you think it's unfair when I start talking about group economics? What kind of horsesh*t is that? All of a sudden it's not fair?

 

The problem is you define people by race and not the content of their character, you see white and don't look any further. Equality, real equality is the way forward. Also black people don't just live in the ghetto, there are plenty of middle class and upper class black people. The fact that the majority of people from the ghetto, anyone that lives in any ghetto for that matter don't transcend is largely attributable to gang culture and abysmal quality public education in those school districts.

 

And that last part is another topic related to the dependency of the government because Blacks are too reliant on Whites. It goes in circles. You Whites just can't see it. I'll leave it with your thoughts. 

 

Did Raavi ever say what race he is? I'm white, yes, but I don't think it has anything to do with the argument. You are again trying to create racial division and lines where there are none.

 

Also, again, Jamaica has a black government and is full of black ghettos.

 

I've got to run for now, but this has been enlightening.

 

Are you really going to start hitting trivial technicalities now? I've seen Raavi post pre-GTA V release about himself but OK I'll ask, Raavi are you White? Either way, I was more speaking in general.

Again, who cares about Jamaica having Blacks and Ghettos. America does too. Your point? Because the argument is about group economics IN AMERICA. Stick to the topic you're trying to argue against or trying to find out more about. 


sivispacem
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#274

Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:54 PM Edited by sivispacem, 31 October 2013 - 06:55 PM.

Reaper Madness, I was just about following- and to some extent agreeing with- your argument until all the "only blacks are capable of making judgement calls on racial prejudice because they're the only people being downtrodden" tripe. One, that's clearly fallacious- the colour of one's skin does not alter their ability to externally observe and draw conclusions from a set of circumstances, and two, it's disingenuous to imply that blacks are the sole racial or ethnic group that experiences economic or social hardship. What about South Asians? Or East Asians? Or the whites in Zimbabwe? Or the various subjugated ethnic groups in the Middle East and North Africa? 


theadmiral
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#275

Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:56 PM

The question is more about why does it matter who is white and who is black? You should just look at the points presented and refute them rather than blaming it on the race of the poster or immediately dismissing any credible argument because it comes from someone you imagine to be white.

 

I think you are probably beyond convincing or debating with, because you seem to have an incredibly strong viewpoint that has probably been instilled in you over a number of years.

 

It is probably best if we just agree to disagree because I do not really see it going anywhere productive.

 

I fundamentally disagree that races banding together and boycotting other races businesses will do anything to help poverty in America, or help anyone "come up". If anything, it will HURT more than it will help.

 

And if you think rich people of any race are going to be generous and help everyone else in their race "Come up" you have another thing coming.

 

The rich are the same the world over, from China, to India, to England, to the USA, to Africa, to South America. The haves and the have nots exist in every country around the world , some to greater extents than others, and it does not matter about the racial makeup of the country and who is supporting what business.

 

The solution is, as Raavi mentioned, making sure that lower income areas have access to the same education and opportunities as other areas, and educating people of all races about the route to prosperity and success.

 

Maintaining a "We're oppressed and it is us against them" attitude has not helped any person of any colour in any country, and only furthers this attitude of "Yeah well I cannot get ahead because of these <insert color> people that do not want me to."


Reaper Madness
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#276

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:05 PM

Reaper Madness, I was just about following- and to some extent agreeing with- your argument until all the "only blacks are capable of making judgement calls on racial prejudice because they're the only people being downtrodden" tripe. One, that's clearly fallacious- the colour of one's skin does not alter their ability to externally observe and draw conclusions from a set of circumstances, and two, it's disingenuous to imply that blacks are the sole racial or ethnic group that experiences economic or social hardship. What about South Asians? Or East Asians? Or the whites in Zimbabwe? Or the various subjugated ethnic groups in the Middle East and North Africa? 

Why put that in quotes? I never said that. My best interest is in Blacks practicing group economics. I didn't say that excludes anyone else from doing it. In fact, I believe in America that other races are already practicing group economics, just not in a grand scale that I'm arguing on. In America, Blacks are the biggest consumers. What I'm arguing for is for Blacks to become producers and support those producers before White businesses. This is what some races practice already, so why is it so wrong for Blacks to do it? 


theadmiral
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#277

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:08 PM

One question, could you explain and elaborate on your statement that blacks (12 percent of the US population) are the biggest consumers? I have not seen one shred of data that backs this up anywhere and i'm willing to imagine it is not even close to true.


Reaper Madness
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#278

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:22 PM Edited by Reaper Madness, 31 October 2013 - 07:25 PM.

 

The question is more about why does it matter who is white and who is black? You should just look at the points presented and refute them rather than blaming it on the race of the poster or immediately dismissing any credible argument because it comes from someone you imagine to be white.

 

I think you are probably beyond convincing or debating with, because you seem to have an incredibly strong viewpoint that has probably been instilled in you over a number of years.

 

It is probably best if we just agree to disagree because I do not really see it going anywhere productive.

 

I fundamentally disagree that races banding together and boycotting other races businesses will do anything to help poverty in America, or help anyone "come up". If anything, it will HURT more than it will help.

 

And if you think rich people of any race are going to be generous and help everyone else in their race "Come up" you have another thing coming.

 

The rich are the same the world over, from China, to India, to England, to the USA, to Africa, to South America. The haves and the have nots exist in every country around the world , some to greater extents than others, and it does not matter about the racial makeup of the country and who is supporting what business.

 

The solution is, as Raavi mentioned, making sure that lower income areas have access to the same education and opportunities as other areas, and educating people of all races about the route to prosperity and success.

 

Maintaining a "We're oppressed and it is us against them" attitude has not helped any person of any colour in any country, and only furthers this attitude of "Yeah well I cannot get ahead because of these <insert color> people that do not want me to."

 

I'm not blaming any race. My point last night was that you may not get it because you are White. As you already admitted before. How is that blaming you? I blame Blacks for allowing themselves to be docile for so long. I want Blacks not to rely on Whites, and it first comes from not even including Whites in any of our problems, including blame. We recognize the history and the facts,and what Whites have done, but change starts with the group.

This 'strong viewpoint' started only 6 months ago with a group. We already made an impact in our community. This is unrelated to my group economics theory, but it's the first step towards it. Psychological dependency that Blacks have on Whites. (Black women buying White hair, believing white is always right, etc.) We already changed some shops from selling weave hair products to natural hair products for African-American women.

We wouldn't be able to do this without help from people like Tariq nasheed, Zo Williams, Geoff Brown (all Black), etc who have an audience behind them promoting this movement. We don't need high end celebrities.

 

Have you been under a rock? Blacks are the biggest consumers in America.

http://www.nielsen.c...n-consumer.html

 

http://www.blackecon...argest-country/

 

http://knowledge.wha...s-more-on-what/


theadmiral
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#279

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:34 PM

I'm seeing three links that explain how much African Americans spend, but no data on what other races in America spend.


theadmiral
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#280

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:36 PM Edited by theadmiral, 31 October 2013 - 07:37 PM.

According to the bureau of labor statistics, white consumers spend on average 52,870$ per year, asians spend 61,399$ per year, and blacks spend 38,627$ per year. If you multiply by population numbers, your theory is flat out wrong.

 

http://www.bls.gov/cex/home.htm#tables


Reaper Madness
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#281

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:40 PM

Where are you getting your facts from? Have you even read the links I gave you. African-Americans in total spend trillions per year. You are now going based on the average individual? You're not going by the total. 


theadmiral
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#282

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:42 PM Edited by theadmiral, 31 October 2013 - 07:43 PM.

Where are you getting your facts from? Have you even read the links I gave you. African-Americans in total spend trillions per year. You are now going based on the average individual? You're not going by the total. 

I'm getting my facts from the US Government bureau of labor.

 

African Americans at 12 percent of the population spend 38,627$ on average per year.

Whites at 72 percent spend 52,870 per year.

Asians at 4 percent spend 61,399 per year.

 

No two ways about it, you are flat out wrong. Again,

 

http://www.bls.gov/cex/home.htm#tables

 

Click the link, get the PDF for race of reference person.

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Frank Brown
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#283

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:44 PM

Where are you getting your facts from? Have you even read the links I gave you. African-Americans in total spend trillions per year. You are now going based on the average individual? You're not going by the total. 

 

If the average per person is less for Blacks than Whites, Hispanics, and Asians, then that means Blacks spend less per person, which would mean less as a whole. He's using BLS statistics and I'm more inclined to believe those.

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theadmiral
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#284

Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:47 PM

Even if the population numbers of whites and blacks were equal, he would still be incorrect. The large population percent difference makes his claim absolutely far, far, far off.


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#285

Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:09 PM

African-Americans in total spend trillions per year. You are now going based on the average individual? 

 

I guess if you factor in how much the US spends thanks to Barack Hussein Obummer, you'd be right.

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Reaper Madness
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#286

Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:11 PM Edited by Reaper Madness, 31 October 2013 - 08:12 PM.

I still pointed out links that showed Black people having consumer power. Actually, believe what you want. It is more beneficial to argue with another Black person than a White person over this. Whites are not needed for this.

I do want to say this to anyone who is Black reading this debate. Notice how when you complain about being called 'ni**er', complain about Trayvon Martin, or Blackface. They say, you shouldn't be offended. However, as soon as you start talking about your economic power they want to scream peace, Morgan Freeman quotes, and whatnot. 

That's all I have to say about this subject. I am glad I found the weak spot months ago.


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#287

Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:16 PM

I still pointed out links that showed Black people having consumer power. Actually, believe what you want. It is more beneficial to argue with another Black person than a White person over this. Whites are not needed for this.

I do want to say this to anyone who is Black reading this debate. Notice how when you complain about being called 'ni**er', complain about Trayvon Martin, or Blackface. They say, you shouldn't be offended. However, as soon as you start talking about your economic power they want to scream peace, Morgan Freeman quotes, and whatnot. 

That's all I have to say about this subject. I am glad I found the weak spot months ago.

 

Your numbers are wrong, that's all Admiral was saying. You cited a Nielson study, an article regarding a Nielson study, and a college study, but didn't cite one of the more important studies, the Bureau of Labor Statistics. If the average African-American spends, for example, $40,000 and the average White-American spends $41,000 White-Americans would be spending more combined than African-Americans.

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theadmiral
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#288

Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:17 PM Edited by theadmiral, 31 October 2013 - 08:18 PM.

I still pointed out links that showed Black people having consumer power. Actually, believe what you want. It is more beneficial to argue with another Black person than a White person over this. Whites are not needed for this.

I do want to say this to anyone who is Black reading this debate. Notice how when you complain about being called 'ni**er', complain about Trayvon Martin, or Blackface. They say, you shouldn't be offended. However, as soon as you start talking about your economic power they want to scream peace, Morgan Freeman quotes, and whatnot. 

That's all I have to say about this subject. I am glad I founded the weak spot months ago.

 

You said multiple times that blacks were the biggest consumers in America and then insulted me and told me I was living under a rock when I told you you were wrong. Now you are flat out ignoring the proof and refusing to even accept it or offer me some sort of apology for the insults.

 

I can break it down further for you if you like.

 

Whites: 223,553,265 population multipled by 52,870 per year: 11819261120550$

Blacks: 38,929,319 Population multiplied by 38,627 per year:  1503722805013$

Asians: 14,674,252 population multiplied by 61,399 per year:   900984398548$

 

I'm not sure why you want to deny the cold, hard facts and insult anyone who disagrees with you. Perhaps it is what you have been told at your group or are reading on certain webpages, but it is not true and if you continue to deny it you are only harming yourself and any future debate you engage in.

 

If you are looking for blind agreement with incorrect statements, yes, I am the wrong person to discuss this with.

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John Smith
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#289

Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:28 PM

I still pointed out links that showed Black people having consumer power. Actually, believe what you want. It is more beneficial to argue with another Black person than a White person over this. Whites are not needed for this.

I do want to say this to anyone who is Black reading this debate. Notice how when you complain about being called 'ni**er', complain about Trayvon Martin, or Blackface. They say, you shouldn't be offended. However, as soon as you start talking about your economic power they want to scream peace, Morgan Freeman quotes, and whatnot. 

That's all I have to say about this subject. I am glad I found the weak spot months ago.

 

And that, I guess, is a wrap gentlemen.

 

White people have no considerable say in the matter. Debate closed.

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sivispacem
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#290

Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:35 PM

 

Reaper Madness, I was just about following- and to some extent agreeing with- your argument until all the "only blacks are capable of making judgement calls on racial prejudice because they're the only people being downtrodden" tripe. One, that's clearly fallacious- the colour of one's skin does not alter their ability to externally observe and draw conclusions from a set of circumstances, and two, it's disingenuous to imply that blacks are the sole racial or ethnic group that experiences economic or social hardship. What about South Asians? Or East Asians? Or the whites in Zimbabwe? Or the various subjugated ethnic groups in the Middle East and North Africa? 

 

Why put that in quotes? I never said that. My best interest is in Blacks practicing group economics. I didn't say that excludes anyone else from doing it. In fact, I believe in America that other races are already practicing group economics, just not in a grand scale that I'm arguing on. In America, Blacks are the biggest consumers. What I'm arguing for is for Blacks to become producers and support those producers before White businesses. This is what some races practice already, so why is it so wrong for Blacks to do it? 

 

 

There's no rational, sensible or reasonable reason race should play any role in societal interaction, though. How, ethically, can you justify one ethnic group favouring trade with their own over another, given they're all members of the same society? Your previous reference to examples a) doesn't appear to provide any rational justification for this view, aside from the rather muddled claim that "blacks know what's best for blacks"- as if racial and ethnic history is a better indicator of societal benefit than anything else (utterly ridiculous in my view) and b) it's quite clear from your implication that you don't consider the views of anyone not from a racial minority on the subject of any importance, for instance: 

 

 

I still pointed out links that showed Black people having consumer power. Actually, believe what you want. It is more beneficial to argue with another Black person than a White person over this. Whites are not needed for this.

 

You're no better than the people you deride for discriminatory actions in my view. In fact, you are one of the people you seem to deride for discriminatory actions. This has nothing to do, as you falsely imply, with a whit "fear" of black economic power, and absolutely everything to do with the fact that you're encouraging social tensions and aggression for no discernible reason I can identify. You've been contributing to the thread for a good five or so pages and I'm still no closer to understanding why you seem to think that your attitude towards racial economic segregation is societally beneficial- no, not beneficial for your twisted impersonation of society which effectively excludes the majority of it for whatever "harms" you think they've perpetrated against your "kind" (see, it's this kind of divisive us-and-them bullsh*t that causes racial tension in the first place), but society as a whole- you know, that integrated cohesive entity which seems to exist all over the developed world but you seem so keen on ignoring.

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#291

Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:18 AM Edited by Reaper Madness, 01 November 2013 - 12:25 AM.

Sivi, I already know how you run. You put words in people's mouths and argue with what you want to argue about. If my support for Black people to produce more than they consume and you have a problem with it. So what? We don't need other race's approval, especially people from the UK to tell us who we can and cannot support in America.

And if it brings racial tension? What racial tension? All of a sudden there's tension because Blacks want to support other Black's business? How so? What's wrong with me wanting to replace 'Versace, Gucci, Prada' with Black fashion and clothing lines? Blacks can buy whoever they want to buy from. There is no law saying we can't choose who we want to buy from. Until then you cannot stop our idea of group economics. That is our choice. Kick rocks it seems unfair to you. And the argument will always comes down to that. Let the group decide where they want to spend their money on. That's capitalism. 

We already have a following that agrees with my method. We already took action. total Black group economics isn't for a long time. Give it a good 5 years. But it's coming. And no one can force a group where to spend their money. I'll keep reiterating this since people don't get it. Black don't need the other races to do this. This is only beneficial for us and our future children. This isn't about Jews, Chinese, Whites, Hispanics, etc. I don't quite frankly care if you think it's racist, discriminatory, segregationist, etc. I'll admit I'm all those things proudly because it doesn't dirty up my name with my group. And Black people is all I need to push this. Why would I care if it seems racist and discriminatory to you guys? You have no power in this change.

 

You said you agreed with me up until a certain point when you said that I was casting Americans Blacks as the only victims which I did not say, but I want to know which part did you agree with me on.


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#292

Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:37 AM

What the f*ck is this? ^ Is this guy for real?


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#293

Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:47 AM

Madness? This is.... Spartaaaaaa.

 

Just keep reading, Finn. Let him continue.

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theadmiral
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#294

Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:51 AM Edited by theadmiral, 01 November 2013 - 12:53 AM.

I'm not even going to jump back in because he is just rehashing the same points over and over again and ignoring anything that proves him wrong.

 

How many times has he said "It is not against the law" "What is wrong with it" when people have told him what is wrong with it time and time again and he has no response? When you do prove him wrong, it is because you dont understand since you are white. (even if you are not white)

 

It is just getting ridiculous at this point.


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#295

Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:54 AM

So what? We don't need other race's approval, especially people from the UK to tell us who we can and cannot support in America.

And if it brings racial tension? What racial tension? All of a sudden there's tension because Blacks want to support other Black's business? How so? What's wrong with me wanting to replace 'Versace, Gucci, Prada' with Black fashion and clothing lines? Blacks can buy whoever they want to buy from. There is no law saying we can't choose who we want to buy from. Until then you cannot stop our idea of group economics. That is our choice. Kick rocks it seems unfair to you. And the argument will always comes down to that. Let the group decide where they want to spend their money on. That's capitalism. 

 

 

No, that's your imaginary concoction predicated on utter ignorance and an unhealthy racial bias. You seem to be so out of touch with reality that for you the most basic principles of economy are some kind of racially fuelled conspiracy to subjugate the black race. Brands are just that brands, they're not connected to any race. What you are blabbering about is called Apartheid, we had that already, and guess what - it didn't work out. Black Gucci? What's next black Microsoft, black Apple, why not make a black Starbucks and black Ford while you're at it. Clearly their real-world counterparts are just fronts for the overarching economic subjugation of the black race! I mean how could they possibly be just businesses, it must be a conspiracy! Let me let you in on a little secret. The individuals that wrote books about group economics and the like for the black race prey on the ignorance and racial extremism of people like you and line there pockets doing so. But let me guess, that's another white conspiracy, right? 

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#296

Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:22 AM Edited by Reaper Madness, 01 November 2013 - 01:24 AM.

 

So what? We don't need other race's approval, especially people from the UK to tell us who we can and cannot support in America.

And if it brings racial tension? What racial tension? All of a sudden there's tension because Blacks want to support other Black's business? How so? What's wrong with me wanting to replace 'Versace, Gucci, Prada' with Black fashion and clothing lines? Blacks can buy whoever they want to buy from. There is no law saying we can't choose who we want to buy from. Until then you cannot stop our idea of group economics. That is our choice. Kick rocks it seems unfair to you. And the argument will always comes down to that. Let the group decide where they want to spend their money on. That's capitalism. 

 

 

No, that's your imaginary concoction predicated on utter ignorance and an unhealthy racial bias. You seem to be so out of touch with reality that for you the most basic principles of economy are some kind of racially fuelled conspiracy to subjugate the black race. Brands are just that brands, they're not connected to any race. What you are blabbering about is called Apartheid, we had that already, and guess what - it didn't work out. Black Gucci? What's next black Microsoft, black Apple, why not make a black Starbucks and black Ford while you're at it. Clearly their real-world counterparts are just fronts for the overarching economic subjugation of the black race! I mean how could they possibly be just businesses, it must be a conspiracy! Let me let you in on a little secret. The individuals that wrote books about group economics and the like for the black race prey on the ignorance and racial extremism of people like you and line there pockets doing so. But let me guess, that's another white conspiracy, right? 

 

When did I say Black Gucci or Black Microsoft? I was using the example that rappers likes to promote Italian designer clothing instead of any Black designer clothing. That we have been so brainwashed that White is right. That is a problem in the Black community. Now you are just putting names on top of everything like that's what I'm basing my whole opinion on. Have I talked about any White conspiracy? I have talked about Black Wallstreet and remember when White people bombed that place up? There's already proof of that so you can't refute it. And how Black wallstreet made Black millionaires? How because of segregation this was even able to happen? How after the bombing Black people were so afraid to create businesses every again to the point it was the norm for Black people to be consumers and not producers? 


Reaper Madness
  • Reaper Madness

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#297

Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:25 AM

I've shown this debate to people and they are saying exactly what I'm saying. It's not beneficial to you guys, so you're crying foul. Well, Black people don't seem to care.


theadmiral
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#298

Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:33 AM Edited by theadmiral, 01 November 2013 - 01:34 AM.

 

When did I say Black Gucci

 

 

 

 

 What's wrong with me wanting to replace 'Versace, Gucci, Prada' with Black fashion and clothing lines?

You also never said blacks were the biggest consumers in the united states, right?


Reaper Madness
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#299

Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:38 AM

 

 

When did I say Black Gucci

 

 

 

 

 What's wrong with me wanting to replace 'Versace, Gucci, Prada' with Black fashion and clothing lines?

You also never said blacks were the biggest consumers in the united states, right?

 

LOL are you serious? That doesn't mean Black Gucci and Black Microsoft. Nice taking that half sentence out of context.  It means for Blacks to promote Black clothing lines like FUBU (For Us By Us).


theadmiral
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#300

Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:40 AM Edited by theadmiral, 01 November 2013 - 01:43 AM.

To make a further point, lets take a moment to talk about the wealthiest African American CEOs in the USA.

 

1. Jan Adams, JMA Solutions

2 Joseph B. Anderson, TAG Holdings, LLC

3. William Bailey, Rapier Solutions

4. Oprah Winfrey, Oprah Winfrey Network

5. Ulysses Bridgeman, Bridgeman Foods Inc.

6. Ursula M. Burns, Xerox Corporation

7. Kenneth I. Chenault, American Express

8. Roger W. Ferguson, Jr., TIAA-CREF

9. Kenneth C. Frazier, Merck & Co., Inc.

10. Ronald Hall, Sr., Bridgewater Interiors

 

Out of these 10, none of these businesses are "businesses for blacks"

 

How can you make the claim that focusing on dealing with one race only will lead to more prosperity for black people? Why sell to 12 percent of the population when you can sell to 100 percent?

 

Also, FUBU Failed.
 

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