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josephene123
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#1921

Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:46 PM

QUOTE (iNero @ Saturday, Jul 27 2013, 20:17)
QUOTE (kudoboi @ Saturday, Jul 27 2013, 18:07)
sony's statement

QUOTE
We would like to clear up a misunderstanding regarding our "direct" and "flexible" memory systems. The article states that "flexible" memory is borrowed from the OS, and must be returned when requested - that's not actually the case.

The actual true distinction is that:
"Direct Memory" is memory allocated under the traditional video game model, so the game controls all aspects of its allocation
"Flexible Memory" is memory managed by the PS4 OS on the game's behalf, and allows games to use some very nice FreeBSD virtual memory functionality. However this memory is 100 per cent the game's memory, and is never used by the OS, and as it is the game's memory it should be easy for every developer to use it.

We have no comment to make on the amount of memory reserved by the system or what it is used for.


so indirectly they confirmed it then. if they plan on only using 5GB of RAM for the next 10 years then next gen games is truly f*cked. it will deff hold back on gaming advancement just like current gen which is really disappointing

some of the insiders now said that its 6GB for Games

also we have this:

https://twitter.com/...200597300543488

(scroll up to see the whole conversation)

is he reliable?

F4L?
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#1922

Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:59 PM

More RAM will free up down the track.

iNero
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#1923

Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE (josephene123 @ Sunday, Jul 28 2013, 00:46)
QUOTE (iNero @ Saturday, Jul 27 2013, 20:17)
QUOTE (kudoboi @ Saturday, Jul 27 2013, 18:07)
sony's statement

QUOTE
We would like to clear up a misunderstanding regarding our "direct" and "flexible" memory systems. The article states that "flexible" memory is borrowed from the OS, and must be returned when requested - that's not actually the case.

The actual true distinction is that:
"Direct Memory" is memory allocated under the traditional video game model, so the game controls all aspects of its allocation
"Flexible Memory" is memory managed by the PS4 OS on the game's behalf, and allows games to use some very nice FreeBSD virtual memory functionality. However this memory is 100 per cent the game's memory, and is never used by the OS, and as it is the game's memory it should be easy for every developer to use it.

We have no comment to make on the amount of memory reserved by the system or what it is used for.


so indirectly they confirmed it then. if they plan on only using 5GB of RAM for the next 10 years then next gen games is truly f*cked. it will deff hold back on gaming advancement just like current gen which is really disappointing

some of the insiders now said that its 6GB for Games

also we have this:

https://twitter.com/...200597300543488

(scroll up to see the whole conversation)

is he reliable?

He is a Dev so...
He is under NDA so he cant say Numbers but he already called out DF for false info ( or at least missleading title)

http://retrocityramp...og/2013/07/522/


Atm 3 different Sony Insiders at GAF have said that 6 GB will be available for Games.
Thos 3 already had a lot of leaks which went out to be true

iNero
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#1924

Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:20 AM Edited by iNero, 28 July 2013 - 12:24 AM.

Post from one of the insiders:

QUOTE
I hope this puts an end to the GAF hive mind. Stop trying to compose a narrative where the RAM available on PS4 is somehow compromising next generation titles. Famousmortimer, Bruce, Verendus, and I have all heard:

"The memory situation on PS4 is ideal and has exceeded expectations in every way."

This cannot be repeated enough. No matter how many times this was said, there is "disappointment" and an insistence that Sony is crafting a machine that isn't focused on gaming. Stop it GAF.


WITH THIS SAID: There are games in development that are using 6 GB of RAM. I will not say any more about this.

I will say: the RAM situation on launch, will not reflect the RAM situation in two years, and not reflect the RAM situation at the end of the console's life cycle.

Another hint I've been trying to drop is that there is potential for an upclock a few years into the console life cycle for both Xbox One and PS4. This can give a late generation graphics boost similar to the one on PSP. (Optimistic parrot hopes for a 2.4 TF 1 GHZ GPU)

Finally,
GAF, I love you, but sometimes you have to understand people can be wrong. I've been wrong, yes, I'm sorry, but I have never personally tried to mislead anyone. Leadbetter has done incredible work on reporting the ins and outs of these machines, and is an amazing source of knowledge. I've chatted with him personally about 4k gaming and where we see the future of graphics. Do not make Leadbetter out to be some console fanboy that is getting paid in Kinnects.


Edit:

sry for doublepost

Bobbin100
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#1925

Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:34 AM

Interesting....i wonder what games are using 6GB of ram at launch.

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#1926

Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:36 AM

QUOTE (Bobbin100 @ Sunday, Jul 28 2013, 02:34)
Interesting....i wonder what games are using 6GB of ram at launch.

Its not hard to fill those. The more you have the less you have to optimize.

For example, Jon Blows Indi Game needs 5 GB ( post from few months ago)
the game will be loaded in the RAM completley. at least 6 GB then I guess

Bobbin100
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#1927

Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:49 AM

QUOTE (iNero @ Sunday, Jul 28 2013, 00:36)
QUOTE (Bobbin100 @ Sunday, Jul 28 2013, 02:34)
Interesting....i wonder what games are using 6GB of ram at launch.

Its not hard to fill those. The more you have the less you have to optimize.

For example, Jon Blows Indi Game needs 5 GB ( post from few months ago)
the game will be loaded in the RAM completley. at least 6 GB then I guess

So any dev can use up to 6GB of ram easily? 2GB is reserved for OS?

After a few years, OS ram size will probably shrink down to 1GB.

F4L?
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#1928

Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:59 AM

QUOTE (Bobbin100 @ Sunday, Jul 28 2013, 11:49)
QUOTE (iNero @ Sunday, Jul 28 2013, 00:36)
QUOTE (Bobbin100 @ Sunday, Jul 28 2013, 02:34)
Interesting....i wonder what games are using 6GB of ram at launch.

Its not hard to fill those. The more you have the less you have to optimize.

For example, Jon Blows Indi Game needs 5 GB ( post from few months ago)
the game will be loaded in the RAM completley. at least 6 GB then I guess

So any dev can use up to 6GB of ram easily? 2GB is reserved for OS?

After a few years, OS ram size will probably shrink down to 1GB.

Yes, but optimization goes a long way, right now they might have lower quality textures, but everything is rendered in using up 6GB. In a few years when they get the hang of using the resources available better they'll use higher quality textures that use more space in the RAM but employ tricks like only fully rendering things up close rather than everything on screen. For example a tree 100 m away will only have a quarter of the textures loaded which takes less ram, because at that distance you can't tell if the tree is fully loaded or not.

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#1929

Posted 30 July 2013 - 06:17 AM

http://www.joystiq.c...nds-limit-2000/

Friends list is double of that of the Xbox One.

Also party chat confirmed.

Thank god.

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#1930

Posted 30 July 2013 - 06:38 AM

I don't understand how anyone could have over 500+ friends? It's not necessary...

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#1931

Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:36 AM

"PS4 news update: It has been confirmed that you WILL NOT need a PlayStation Plus subscription to make use of the console's party chat functionality AND you'll have a massive 2,000 friend slots. Sony: keeping friends together, even when they're all out of cash. Is this something that makes you happy? What else do you want to know about the PS4 (aside from launch date)?"

https://www.facebook...&type=1

F4L?
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#1932

Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE (Antagonista @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 17:38)
I don't understand how anyone could have over 500+ friends? It's not necessary...

PSN for me is a constant thing of deleting people to add new ones, I had the hundred friends limit a few weeks after playing on psn.

Let there be a huge friend list, you don't need to make use of it of you don't wanna.

josephene123
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#1933

Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:01 PM

What's the consensus with the RAM situation? Is it 6GB for games?

iNero
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#1934

Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:17 PM Edited by iNero, 30 July 2013 - 02:33 PM.

QUOTE (josephene123 @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 16:01)
What's the consensus with the RAM situation? Is it 6GB for games?

3 Insiders say so atm.
Plus a high possibility for Sony to increase clock speed of GPU so it will have 2.4 TF instead of 1.84. that would be double the amounf of Flops the X1 has.
If the PS4 has no heating issues in the first few years its very likely to happen.

josephene123
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#1935

Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE (iNero @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 14:17)
QUOTE (josephene123 @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 16:01)
What's the consensus with the RAM situation? Is it 6GB for games?

3 Insiders say so atm.
Plus a high possibility for Sony to increase clock speed of GPU so it will have 2.4 TF instead of 1.2. that would be double the amounf of Flops the X1 has.
If the PS4 has no heating issues in the first few years its very likely to happen.

Do you mean upclock it from 1.8TF to 2.4TF? I think it's 1.8 atm. But anyway, what does that mean for gaming? What is TF a measure of...

iNero
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#1936

Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE (josephene123 @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 16:29)
QUOTE (iNero @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 14:17)
QUOTE (josephene123 @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 16:01)
What's the consensus with the RAM situation? Is it 6GB for games?

3 Insiders say so atm.
Plus a high possibility for Sony to increase clock speed of GPU so it will have 2.4 TF instead of 1.2. that would be double the amounf of Flops the X1 has.
If the PS4 has no heating issues in the first few years its very likely to happen.

Do you mean upclock it from 1.8TF to 2.4TF? I think it's 1.8 atm. But anyway, what does that mean for gaming? What is TF a measure of...

yea. was a mistake. increase it from 1.84 to 2.4

sublimelabs
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#1937

Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:35 PM

QUOTE (Antagonista @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 06:38)
I don't understand how anyone could have over 500+ friends? It's not necessary...

It's because PS4 can connect to Facebook. Facebook has a 2,000 friend limit, if I recall correctly. Dunno who would have that many friends on PS4, but it's just to be safe. tounge.gif

NYC PATROL
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#1938

Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:42 PM

Jesus 2,000 friends possible.

Imagine the invite spams tounge.gif

I get spammed already out the ass with 95 people on my friends list.
(And only 30-40 are active )

I know they said our PSN's from the PS3 will carry over to PS4 but I hope our actual Friends list transfers over to PS4.
Don't want to have to re-find people confused.gif

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#1939

Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:48 PM

QUOTE (NYC PATROL @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 18:42)
Jesus 2,000 friends possible.

Imagine the invite spams tounge.gif

I get spammed already out the ass with 95 people on my friends list.
(And only 30-40 are active )

I know they said our PSN's from the PS3 will carry over to PS4 but I hope our actual Friends list transfers over to PS4.
Don't want to have to re-find people confused.gif

Wow that will be a hell of alot of spam if you did use the full 2,000 spaces. However if i do get spam from one of my friends on the PS3 then they are deleted straight away thats why i only really have about 40 - 50 fiends on my friends list at most at any time.

F4L?
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#1940

Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:57 PM

QUOTE (sublimelabs @ Wednesday, Jul 31 2013, 04:35)
QUOTE (Antagonista @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 06:38)
I don't understand how anyone could have over 500+ friends? It's not necessary...

It's because PS4 can connect to Facebook. Facebook has a 2,000 friend limit, if I recall correctly. Dunno who would have that many friends on PS4, but it's just to be safe. tounge.gif

Facebook is 5000 friends.

Also spam? Huh? Who are you adding? 7 year Olds? Last time I got spam I can't even remember, but it wasn't from someone on my friends list.

NYC PATROL
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#1941

Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:48 AM

QUOTE (finn4life @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 19:57)
QUOTE (sublimelabs @ Wednesday, Jul 31 2013, 04:35)
QUOTE (Antagonista @ Tuesday, Jul 30 2013, 06:38)
I don't understand how anyone could have over 500+ friends? It's not necessary...

It's because PS4 can connect to Facebook. Facebook has a 2,000 friend limit, if I recall correctly. Dunno who would have that many friends on PS4, but it's just to be safe. tounge.gif

Facebook is 5000 friends.

Also spam? Huh? Who are you adding? 7 year Olds? Last time I got spam I can't even remember, but it wasn't from someone on my friends list.

I don't get spammed too often. It's just happened a few times but really what I mean is
sometimes there are so many people on at the same time playing the same game.
And then they all invite at the same time.

It's like...ughhh....what do I do haha

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#1942

Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:56 AM


sublimelabs
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#1943

Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:04 AM

Pointless video, to be honest. The consoles' OS will be much more lean and less prone to hinder performance. Also...

Xbox One: HD 7850
PS4: 7870 XT

What? dozingoff.gif Digital Foundry has been awful lately.

iNero
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#1944

Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE (sublimelabs @ Thursday, Aug 1 2013, 10:04)
Pointless video, to be honest. The consoles' OS will be much more lean and less prone to hinder performance. Also...

Xbox One: HD 7850
PS4: 7870 XT

What? dozingoff.gif Digital Foundry has been awful lately.

Not at all. PS4 at least has a secondary chip for such things.
RAM split is 6/2 which will most likely change so Devs get more RAM for Games over time.
There were many devs who confirmed that X1s GPU does outperform a 7770 and a 7790 easily with it mods while PS4 does outperform a 7850 and 7870.

Ono from capcom (Deep Down) recently just confirmed many other tech analysis by saying that PS4s Peakperformence is behind that of an high end PC in theory, but due its ease and streamlined architecture it is superior in some areas.

You cant compare PC GPUs with console GPUs... easy as that. They always will work way more efficient in a console as they would in a PC. Plus it has some heavy mods.

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#1945

Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:04 PM Edited by Booze T, 01 August 2013 - 02:16 PM.

QUOTE (JOSEPH X @ Sunday, Jul 14 2013, 16:08)
QUOTE (Booze T @ Saturday, Jul 13 2013, 14:27)
QUOTE (finn4life @ Saturday, Jul 13 2013, 12:39)
About HDMI recording, hmm, well how are they going to get around that? Downscaling quality when you record from it?

Who do you mean by "they"? I assume the capture card manufacturers? They technically could make cards that bypass hdcp, but there's the legal issue. If they did that, there's no way of knowing if gamers are capturing games or Blu-ray movies, so I don't think they'd get permission. With hdcp, you can still get a sub-HD signal, but that's not what you want. I guess the best solution would be to stream your gameplay and record that. It'll be low bitrate and there's no word yet on the max recordable/streamable resolution (it could be 720p for all we know).

Here's an article on why the next-gens probably won't have an analog output.

I know it sucks. It seems like a resourceful select few (gameplay capturers) are going to find ways around the hdcp, the rest will have to depend on the on-board capture features and hope for future developments (like a drive-less model maybe?).

I'm hoping to still make videos with my capture card next gen, rather than relying on the share feature. 15 minute clips is not enough sometimes. My card manufacturer is still in the dark as to whether the device will work next gen

QUOTE
At this time, we do not know if or how Elgato Game Capture HD will work with the HDMI output of Next Generation consoles.

If their output is encrypted with HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection), then Elgato Game Capture HD will not be able to capture that content via HDMI.

If their output is not encrypted, then Elgato Game Capture HD should be able to capture content, much like it does with the Xbox 360.

We can make educated guesses about what might happen with Next Generation consoles, but we will not fully know how their video output will work until they are actually released and available in stores.

Good news! The fine people at speeddemosarchive.com have actually found several ways to circumvent the HDCP. I advise you to read through that thread for updates and feedback.
Basically, there's a couple of specific DVI -> HDMI converter boxes that supposedly strip HDCP. There's also a couple of HDMI splitters that might work.

I ended up trying out one of the HDMI splitters they mention, specifically this one (ViewHD VHD-1x2MN3D). I linked to the Dutch Ebay, as that's the only place I could buy it from but, depending on where you live, it might be easier to come by for you.
This seems to be the easiest and cheapest solution, as your signal stays HDMI (audio + video embedded and no conversions) and the thing itself costs a mere $19.- (not counting shipping and taxes).

You can feed it an HDCP encrypted signal and it will give back 2 unencrypted signals. There's only theories as to why it does this, this is one of them:

QUOTE (Omnigamer @ forum.speeddemosarchive.com @ 2013-02-15 11:42:14 am)
Just some comments on how (I think) it is actually removing HDCP: typically splitters will have a requirement that the feed will be scaled down to the lowest requested resolution between all of the attached displays. This probably has to do with the handshaking process; the device is providing an identical feed to all devices, but if one of them cannot support that resolution then it forces that limitation on all other supporting displays. This is a direct passthrough approach, where the splitter only acts as the middleman in negotiating the final output resolution.

The ViewHD splitter in question does not follow this paradigm. It can instead provide feeds of differing resolutions to all connected displays simultaneously. This probably means that it is actually acting as an endpoint for the initial feed, decoding the HDCP, and then renegotiating resolutions with each connected display individually. This renegotiation process would not be possible if HDCP were still enabled. It seems like it was a design decision in order to make it easier to connect up devices that use different resolutions, and removing HDCP is just an artifact of that decision.


I tried it (after buying an adapter for the power plug) and it works!

user posted image

As you can see, I'm capturing The Last of Us over HDMI.
I haven't done any extensive testing (prolonged recording sessions), but I'll definitely report here if anything's wrong.

A note on the legal issue: you, as a customer, are not in the wrong for purchasing this, because technically, you couldn't have known about this "functionality". It is not advertised and it even says in the manual that it outputs HDMI + HDCP. If you have purchased this, you are in the clear when it comes to legal countermeasures. The only thing that could happen is this product being taken off the shelf, so that's why I advise you to get them while you can. I know I'm going to buy a couple spare ones.

There's also some other things that you should keep in mind:
  • There's no guaranty that these devices will continue to work in the future. HDCP is designed so compromised devices can be blacklisted and that might happen with the next-gen consoles through firmware updates or the like.
  • Even though you're safe from legal consequences, there's no knowing what the companies involved (Sony, Microsoft, Intel, the splitters' and converters' manufacturers, video hosting sites like YouTube, etc.) will legally do to and/or with each other. For example: maybe Intel will go to Sony, demanding that any video that looks like it's been made with an unauthorized capture card, be taken down from video hosting sites. Sony can do that, because they technically (at least partially) "own" the content.
  • We don't know what the future holds for next gen consoles and capture cards. Maybe Sony/Microsoft will work out a deal with Intel and capture card manufacturers. Or, assuming it's because of Blu-ray that the next gens output HDCP encrypted signals - maybe they'll release a PS4 or XB1 without a Blu-ray drive.
Anyway, just had to share that, hopefully it'll be helpful to someone icon14.gif

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#1946

Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:11 PM Edited by Futurama_Freak1, 01 August 2013 - 12:16 PM.

I just use a component HD cable.
Probably the easier and cheaper option.

Didn't PS4 still support that option? I dunfuggin'remember.

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#1947

Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:32 PM

Component will be a no-go on the next gen consoles. Google the "analog sunset" if you want to know why. And even if component output was still an option, you'd only be able to capture 720p or 1080i at most (no 1080p).

F4L?
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#1948

Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:41 PM

Thanks for that Booze, I was curious. However that doesn't really solve the issue big Youtubers might have. They have contracts and such with Youtube and various other companies, so using this probably wouldn't be looked upon kindly since it is illegal.

I suppose they will have to upload and download their videos.

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#1949

Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:52 PM

We'll have to see what the future holds, but I'd like to add that several big YouTubers are already using some of these methods for PS3. The question is: "who will complain?". As long as the devices are only used to capture gameplay, every party involved stands only to gain. Except for maybe Intel, as it's their HDCP that's being undermined.

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#1950

Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:01 PM

BTW the guys here from the UK might want to get their preorders in soon if you want it on launch day, they're going to stop taking them within a week or so




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