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EU Referendum in the UK

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Stephan90
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#1

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:20 AM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 09:41 AM.

Today I read in the news that British prime minister Davide Cameron plans to hold a public referendum in the UK in the time frame 2015-2017 if his Conservative Party wins to the next election. The peopkle shall be asked the simple question if they want to stay in or leave the EU.

For the background read: http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-21148282


On a German news service I read that two thirds of the over 60 year old British want that the UK leaves the EU and that two thirds of the British that are aged between 18 and 34 want to stay in the EU.

http://www.bild.de/p...15942.bild.html

Personally, I think, although a bit isolated, Great Britain is a strong part of the EU that holds a relative big burden. In 2009 the country 0,24 percent of it's GDP into the EU which is one of the highest percentages in comparison to other EU countries. See, Net receipts from the EU budget, based on 2009 budget data: http://en.wikipedia...._European_Union

However, In my opinion the whole bureaucratic and injust system of the EU is damned to fail, I welcome this referendum, because I hope maybe we get the same chance if the referedum has success in the UK, and everything breaks together like a card house.


So, what do you people (especially British) on this forum think about the referendum? How would you vote if it happens?

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#2

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:28 AM

The UK must remain part of the EU, it simply must. So much of our trade is with Europe, our armed forces now have a far greater cohesion with those of the French. Europe is becoming more interwined, moving closer and closer towards a Federation instead of a loose, chaotic Union.
We must acknowledge and respect our continental obligations, not stand on the outskirts of history, an angry man on a damp little island shaking his fist at Johnny Foreigner.

The very act, the very implication of removing our country from the EU will not play well. We look like impudent children, demanding changes and exceptions to suit our own narrow interests. And this vote will only cement the notion that Britain is a failing, isolationist state which should not be included in the wider European political stage.

This will also cause more harm to our relationship with America, who has hitherto used us as a gateway into Europe - an important role Cameron's insanity will put at risk.

This is foolishness, dangerous foolishness. If they put it to a vote, I'll vote to stay in the EU, but the act of calling a vote in itself appears hostile. Cameron has all the tact and elegance of a blind woodsman, all this speech has done is offend our neighbours and further jeopardise our place in Europe and the wider world.


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#3

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:31 AM

The EU needs the UK just as much as the UK needs the EU, in all honesty. I really detest the way the right in this country have jumped on the xenophobic bandwagon and effectively claimed that we're better off out of it. Partially because it's a shameful extension of illogical nationalism and misplaced jingoistic superiority, but mostly because the idea that the UK would be better outside of the union is grade-A, finest quality, wholly organic taste-the-difference bullsh*t.

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#4

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:48 AM

So am I wrong in thinking that the interests of all European states are basically in line with each other, and all this Euro-scepticism basically stems from archaic nationalism?

Ve shall do zis, ze German way!

Stephan90
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#5

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:59 AM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 10:07 AM.

@ Typhus and sivispacem, what I miss is that you didn't elaborate why all the necesary cooperation between the EU countries can't be done with a priviliged partnership under the principle of subsaidarity, where everyone remains sovereign. Which advantages would break away?

Also Typhus, why are you afraid of a real democratic decision about a topic that concerns every citizen? Why do you find it "hostile"?


QUOTE
So am I wrong in thinking that the interests of all European states are basically in line with each other, and all this Euro-scepticism basically stems from archaic nationalism?


At the end of the day it's all about the money and the self-determination which is part of our national constitutions.

QUOTE
Ve shall do zis, ze German way!


Could you elaborate this?

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#6

Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:19 AM

http://www.thisismon...-does-back.html

I won't pretend to know much about this subject, but according to the article in the above link, Britain puts more into the EU than it gets back.

So can somebody perhaps tell me how I personally, as a low earning tax payer, benefits from being in the EU? Serious question.

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#7

Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:24 AM Edited by sivispacem, 23 January 2013 - 10:30 AM.

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 10:59)
@ Typhus and sivispacem, what I miss is that you didn't elaborate why all the necesary cooperation between the EU countries can't be done with a priviliged partnership under the principle of subsaidarity, where everyone remains sovereign. Which advantages would break away?

Because the union is in principle at least the perfect mechanism for international cooperation. As much as people like to go on about how different the European states are, the reality is "not very". Ad-hoc agreements are all well and good but the existence of a unified framework discourages short-termism and effectively forces governments to plan strategically for their long-term benefit. It is, in my view, the perfect antidote to the "4-years-until-the-next-one" attitude of national governments. When done properly, it does far more for the long term interests of the member states than a single government ever can.

Plus the EU is a tool of power extension. It represents the largest economic bloc in the world by a sizeable margin, and decent steps are bring made towards strategic union so it could become an effective military presence too. Hypothetical, Europe can intervene in ways that NATO, tarnished by the foreign policy image of the United States, cannot. Just look at the reaction to the French intervention in Mali as an example.

@John- that's a very misleading article. It takes into account all EU related expenditure but only accounts for direct subsidies or return payments going the other way. One only need look at a few of the pan-European businesses whose existence is enabled by the EU- EADS, for instance- or the amount if business the British giants do abroad that's enabled by the EU to see that comparing cash in to cash out is an absurd misrepresentation of reality.

Stephan90
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#8

Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:37 AM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 10:47 AM.

QUOTE
Because the union is in principle at least the perfect mechanism for international cooperation.


That's your opinion and not be confused with a fact.

QUOTE
As much as people like to go on about how different the European states are, the reality is "not very".


That's also your opinion and not a fact. Anyway, for what exactly is this an argument if it was true? Transfer Union? Where is the profit for the UK you praise all the time?

QUOTE
but the existence of a unified framework discourages short-termism and effectively forces governments to plan strategically for their long-term benefit.


That's also your opinion. Where is the proof for that, if you don't mind telling? Do you put that over national self-determination? That was against your constitution.

QUOTE
Hypothetical, Europe can intervene in ways that NATO, tarnished by the foreign policy image of the United States, cannot. Just look at the reaction to the French intervention in Mali as an example.


Mali shows that the EU is far from a common defence policy. I wouldn't mind a European common defence policy against Islamistic Terror, but therefore I don't need the rest of the EU package. A European equivalent of the NATO could be formed without the USA, simple as that.

QUOTE
@John- that's a very misleading article. It takes into account all EU related expenditure but only accounts for direct subsidies or return payments going the other way. One only need look at a few of the pan-European businesses whose existence is enabled by the EU- EADS, for instance- or the amount if business the British giants do abroad that's enabled by the EU to see that comparing cash in to cash out is an absurd misrepresentation of reality.


Why do some countries have to pay more than others into the EU just for pan-European businesses? One thing has nothing to do with the other...

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#9

Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 10:24)
@John- that's a very misleading article. It takes into account all EU related expenditure but only accounts for direct subsidies or return payments going the other way. One only need look at a few of the pan-European businesses whose existence is enabled by the EU- EADS, for instance- or the amount if business the British giants do abroad that's enabled by the EU to see that comparing cash in to cash out is an absurd misrepresentation of reality.

Thanks.

While I have nothing against any foreigner, and no problem with anybody who wants to move to Britain, with several million unemployed in this country does it really benefit us to have no control over immigration from other EU countries? Surely if we are already several million jobs short, then any immigrant is simply going to cost the tax payers?

I understand it's probably not as simple as that.

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#10

Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

The European Union is increasingly taking over power. And sooner or later, that's bound to go horribly wrong. We need to face this inevitable truth. And prepare a good exit strategy as individual countries.

That we in Europe can not exist without each other is bullocks. A large part of the European countries became major players on their own feet, precisely because we in Europe had a healthy sense of competition between European countries. The great strength of the old Europe was precisely the political decentralization. But unfortunately we are now following the U.S example and are slowly but surely becoming a unified federal state.

The problem is that "the differences between countries are too big." Countries themselves do not understand each other and we al have a totally different political culture. The foreign policy of France is totally different than say the one of a central European country such as Poland. That will never work let alone thrive. The strategy now being implemented will sooner or later fail.

The plan of Van Rompuy to solve the crisis with even more power transfer to Europe is not only a huge mistake but has already proven itself to be disastrous in the past. The European Union is designed so that it will sooner or later need to form itself in one large federal state like the United States.

The founding fathers of Europe in the early nineties were fighting for issues such as open borders and shared foreign policy But they knew sooner or later a crisis would arise from their ideal. And from that crisis they could eventually create a federal state. The problem is: "it's not gonna work." The differences are too great, and the people don't want it. And at no time in the past we were informed of their plans. Which is not uncommon but still. That would like dividing the US in two overnight

There already has been a referendum in 2005 but unfortunately back then most of us were clueless about the EU and thus allowed the government to just push through what was on their agenda. What would be fair is a 'new' referendum with the question: "do you want to go in the long term towards a political union". "Yes or no?".

Right now many parties say: "it can not be dismantled." But that is nonsense. This summer economists from Oxford, Paris and Germany came up with a plan how they can transition back to their own currency and thus dismantle the EU.

These are things we have to recognize. We must recognize that it does not work. And it would be good to reintroduce national border controls to control illegal immigrants and crime. Many Intellectual individuals like journalists, businessmen and officials have doubts about the European project. Hopefully the tide will turn. Politicians say 'it brings us prosperity. Many outlets even use fear mongering to convince the people that staying in the EU is best. Europe is an ideology: "we must be strong and big. Otherwise, we are bombarded by other powers like China and the US." All fear images. Based on a business model which is not true.

Bigger is not always betters. We see precisely in healthcare, banking and education that the mega mergers have not worked. It leads to alienation of people with the organization. Small businesses can operate just as dynamic. Even small countries are already doing very well.

If you look at the list of top 20 richest countries you'll see that are almost all small independent countries This is because small countries can operate dynamically. Think of Switzerland, Singapore, South Korea and Norway. Small and decisively that is the future. The large "blocks" bring just stagnation.

I am convinced that the euro will collapse. And also that the European Union eventually ail collapse. It is important to recognize that it can be orderly dismantled. I really hope so. Then we must act appropriately. The longer the political elite do not want to see the reality, the greater the chance of a civil war.

The reforms now being discussed. Are no fundamental reforms. You make can't shape a Greek into a German. And that's a good thing!

You can not form a large unified state with this many different countries in Europe, you can not have shared currency without a state. So sooner or later, the conclusion must be that the shared currency has no future.

Two scenarios: the decommissioning process goes either peacefully or by war.

What you now see in Greece that a significant portion there (unfortunately) votes agains their best interest. In Spain and Portugal you already have hundreds of thousands of people who go on strike This is due to huge decline in the confidence of politics. This leads to tremendous stress. People lose their pensions. And many people lose their jobs in southern Europe this mainly affects youth.

Europe actually purchased the democracy. You can not have democracy at European level, because we do not understand each other. You must be a 'we' to have a Democracy. Democracy works if you work together. Otherwise, you must not start. In Europe we don't have that "we" feeling. It can only work as long as it is a kind of technocratic - officials governance.

I hope in the not so distant future people will no longer put up with this.

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#11

Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:56 AM

@ Raavi, just for that post I have to put you on my respect list, although I don't get why you use the EU flag under your avatar.

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#12

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 09:59)
Also Typhus, why are you afraid of a real democratic decision about a topic that concerns every citizen? Why do you find it "hostile"?

I believe in democracy, don't get me wrong. But practical political considerations must be considered.
Europe is in crisis and the Franco-German alliance is doing what they can to alleviate the situation and create some kind of consensus that can allow them to sort things out - you may not like the manner in which they want to solve these problems, but you cannot deny that they are trying to make things better.

And there, at every turn, are the British. Constantly worried about their sovereignty, worried about their own rights, unwilling to see the larger picture. And there is the Prime Minister, strutting about like a peacock, threatening to veto resolutions unless he gets his way, threatening to destabilise the continent unless his tiny little island is given concession after concession.

Frankly, our behaviour has been intolerable. And now we are to have a vote. We are to put a vote to our populace of beer-swilling, xenophobic, anti-intellectual bigots. We are to put the vote to a country who gets their news from a paper specialising in soft core pornography. The future of the country, the stability of the CONTINENT, will be decided by a nation of willfully ignorant buffoons.

This vote is a hostile move, just as all the anti-EU headlines in our gutter press have been signs of a governmental shift towards isolationism and scapegoating of the European boogeyman.

Our electorate is uninformed, the timing is off and the whole process of calling for a referendum casts a very dark shadow over our future as a nation.

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#13

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:05 AM

QUOTE (John The Grudge @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 11:41)
QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 10:24)
@John- that's a very misleading article. It takes into account all EU related expenditure but only accounts for direct subsidies or return payments going the other way. One only need look at a few of the pan-European businesses whose existence is enabled by the EU- EADS, for instance- or the amount if business the British giants do abroad that's enabled by the EU to see that comparing cash in to cash out is an absurd misrepresentation of reality.

Thanks.

While I have nothing against any foreigner, and no problem with anybody who wants to move to Britain, with several million unemployed in this country does it really benefit us to have no control over immigration from other EU countries? Surely if we are already several million jobs short, then any immigrant is simply going to cost the tax payers?

I understand it's probably not as simple as that.

We aren't several million jobs short, though. We have plenty of jobs, but the issue is many of them are high-skilled and outside the remit of the majority of domestic citizens. The "immigration steals jobs" argument is a fallacy; it simply does not. There is no statistical evidence linking migration, European or otherwise, to reductions in domestic employment. The problem in the UK is an educational system too archaic to keep pace with the evolution of our economy, combined with endemic and cultural laziness amongst parts of the population and a misplaced sense of entitlement. It's an absolute sham to blame immigration for social issues amongst the native population.

Others- I'll respond in more depth later. You are right to say much of it is based on opinion, but that doesn't make a view invalid. It is difficult to argue that the strategic interests if the UK would be better served outside the EU, even in its current state (which I do have educational about) than inside it- I certainly haven't heard a good argument to that end. Finally, lets not confuse the fallout from an ill-planned fiscal union with the wider EU.

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#14

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:38 AM

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 19:59)
Could you elaborate this?

I'm referring to the general tendency (which you yourself exhibit) to view sovereignty as something sacred. Self-determination for a nation state is not a good thing in and of itself. So anything that allows Europe to speak with once voice on the geopolitical stage and address the common problems of our societies (mental health, animal rights, racism etc.), despite- ostensibly and in theory- being a good thing, should be opposed because it undermines German or British "independence" from the rest of the continent?

While I do think decentralisation is an inherently good thing, why can't we apply the same logic Euro-sceptics use to cities as well as nation states? People in Edinburgh have different interests to people in English country towns, is that grounds on which to oppose the existence of the British state? I'd say so, so why is it that this logic only applies to nation states? Jingoism? Xenophobia? I'm going to be optimistic and say it's some reverence for sovereignty left over from the time of Protestant Reformation.

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#15

Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:57 AM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 12:12 PM.

Typhus:

QUOTE
Europe is in crisis and the Franco-German alliance is doing what they can to alleviate the situation and create some kind of consensus that can allow them to sort things out - you may not like the manner in which they want to solve these problems, but you cannot deny that they are trying to make things better.


The Franco-German coalition is trying to hold together a collapsing system, which makes me really sad, since we will have to pay the bill for that.

QUOTE
And there, at every turn, are the British. Constantly worried about their sovereignty, worried about their own rights, unwilling to see the larger picture. And there is the Prime Minister, strutting about like a peacock, threatening to veto resolutions unless he gets his way, threatening to destabilise the continent unless his tiny little island is given concession after concession.


That would mean, everything before EU regulation is instabile and only obeying to everything the EU wants, leads to the stabile state. Funny

QUOTE
This vote is a hostile move, just as all the anti-EU headlines in our gutter press have been signs of a governmental shift towards isolationism and scapegoating of the European boogeyman.

Our electorate is uninformed, the timing is off and the whole process of calling for a referendum casts a very dark shadow over our future as a nation.


So you basically say the people in the UK were to stupid or to manipulated to participate in European politics and deciding on their own future?!

QUOTE
But practical political considerations must be considered.


I don't think so, when it comes so far that ones own legislative is not the result of a democratic election.

sivispacem

QUOTE
We aren't several million jobs short, though. We have plenty of jobs, but the issue is many of them are high-skilled and outside the remit of the majority of domestic citizens. The "immigration steals jobs" argument is a fallacy; it simply does not. There is no statistical evidence linking migration, European or otherwise, to reductions in domestic employment. The problem in the UK is an educational system too archaic to keep pace with the evolution of our economy, combined with endemic and cultural laziness amongst parts of the population and a misplaced sense of entitlement. It's an absolute sham to blame immigration for social issues amongst the native population.


Do you really believe the main portion of immigrants that came to the UK during the crysis are highly qualified? It is not true that the main portion of the people who lost their job in south europe are the highly qualified. In a crysis the least educated loose their job to a higher degree than the well educated.

QUOTE
lets not confuse the fallout from an ill-planned fiscal union with the wider EU.


We already have an indirect fiscal union. Purchases of state bonds from countries in the crysis by the European central bank and ESM?!

Melchior:

QUOTE
I'm referring to the general tendency (which you yourself exhibit) to view sovereignty as something sacred. Self-determination for a nation state is not a good thing in and of itself. So anything that allows Europe to speak with once voice on the geopolitical stage and address the common problems of our societies (mental health, animal rights, racism etc.), despite- ostensibly and in theory- being a good thing, should be opposed because it undermines German or British "independence" from the rest of the continent?


Europe can only speak with one voice when everyone wants to say the same. EU is defining what to be said and forcing all participating countries to say the same no matter if they want or not. Not to mention the citizens themselves.

QUOTE
While I do think decentralisation is an inherently good thing, why can't we apply the same logic Euro-sceptics use to cities as well as nation states? People in Edinburgh have different interests to people in English country towns, is that grounds on which to oppose the existence of the British state? I'd say so, so why is it that this logic only applies to nation states? Jingoism? Xenophobia? I'm going to be optimistic and say it's some reverence for sovereignty left over from the time of Protestant Reformation.


First the constitution of soverign nations like Germany and others are approved by a National Assembly. They are democratic legitimate and wanted by most of the people. The national constitution defends itself from vanishing.

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#16

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 21:57)
So you basically say the people in the UK were to stupid or to manipulated to participate in European politics and deciding on their own future?!

Sounds about right. tounge.gif

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#17

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:18 PM

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 12:57)
Do you really believe the main portion of immigrants that came to the UK during the crissi are highly qualified? It is not true that the main portion of the people who lost their job in south europe are the highly qualified. In a crises the least educated loose their job to a higher degree than the well educated.

We already have an indirect fiscal union. Purchases of state bonds from countries in the chrysis by the European central bank and ESM?!

Are you, therefore, insinuating that the issues with unemployment in the UK are indeed a product of immigration? That's certainly how it reads. Now, there are a couple of issues that I rake with your statements. Firstly, immigration from Southern Europe into the UK is negligible. It's a poor example. Now, if you look at the primary areas of European immigration into the UK- that is, Eastern Europe, what do you see? Skilled labour of varying kinds and at various skill levels. Do these individuals displace British mid-skilled labour? I've never seen evidence to suggest that they do, despite the protestations of the Eurosceptic lobby, so I can only presume that it isn't true given that every study ever done on the issue has shown migration as a net job creator.

The fiscal union by proxy is entirely a result of non- Euro states being dragged into the Euro crisis. If the Euro had not been formed, or had only been limited to the Northern European powers, do you think that other nations would have been dragged into the mess? I doubt it, personally.

The idea of Europe being divided is a complete fallacy. The only divisions are those manufactured by political groups for their personal benefit. If you take away the nationalist rhetoric, strip out the bollocks about "muddying cultural definitions" or "destroying heritage" exactly what reasonable objection is there to the principle of the EU, if not its current state? Go on, identify one thing that isn't rooted in jingoism or false nationalism.

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#18

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

They can do whatever they want. When it comes to politics the EU and the UK are both a joke, in the end the winner is the one with the least dumbest ideas, and to forecast something like that is nearly impossible.

The UK is doing well in hiding their problems with events, whether it's Olympics or the Royal Family, they always happen to pop-up when there's a crisis, unfortunately we don't have that in most parts in Europe.
The EU on the other hand is really good at creating idiotic laws and silly regulations. sh*t happens when politians think that they're experts and in reality don't know crap about the things they're doing, this doesn't apply to all but unfortunately to a majority of the ones sitting in the EU.

Best would be to just move away from all that trouble. If you happen to be rich and don't know what to do anymore, buy your own island because that's the only way to escape all the crap that's happening in the world. smile.gif

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#19

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

Or you move to your best friend Vladimir in Russia.

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#20

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

Talking of "idiotic laws", you see numerous reports in the right-wing press about ostensibly insane regulations the EU has apparently thrust upon its member states. As far as I've been able to work out, a lot of these are effectively complete dross- intentional misinterpretations of otherwise decent legislation that were made specifically to make the EU look more intrusive and meddling than it actually is. Nice to see that this kind of absurdism isn't just limited to the British press.

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:19 PM

From a purely economic standpoint, the way the EU and Eurozone is designed right now is complete garbage. Plain and simple - you can't have a currency union in place without a strong political union. It just doesn't work. Unless the countries of Europe are willing to truly federalize themselves into a European federation, the macroeconomic prospects are poor.

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#22

Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:22 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Jan 24 2013, 02:19)
From a purely economic standpoint, the way the EU and Eurozone is designed right now is complete garbage. Plain and simple - you can't have a currency union in place without a strong political union. It just doesn't work. Unless the countries of Europe are willing to truly federalize themselves into a European federation, the macroeconomic prospects are poor.

I think the most substantial benefits lie in the fact that the EU is effectively borderless.

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#23

Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:33 PM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 06:14 PM.

QUOTE (Melchior @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 16:22)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Jan 24 2013, 02:19)
From a purely economic standpoint, the way the EU and Eurozone is designed right now is complete garbage. Plain and simple - you can't have a currency union in place without a strong political union. It just doesn't work. Unless the countries of Europe are willing to truly federalize themselves into a European federation, the macroeconomic prospects are poor.

I think the most substantial benefits lie in the fact that the EU is effectively borderless.

And why do I need all the things that disgust me about the EU for opening the boarders?

Sure it makes trade between countries more efficient. But I live near the boarder and since the boarders are open the boarder-criminality has increased drastically, especially when it comes to stealing cars. Instead of sitting in a control-hut the men from the boarder police sit in their police vehicle ten meters away for random controls. This is ridiculous.

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#24

Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:38 PM

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 17:33)
Sure it makes trade between countries more efficient. But I live near the boarder and since the boarders are open the boarder-criminality has increased drastically, especially when it comes to stealing cars. Instead of sitting in a control-hut the men from the boarder police sit in their police vehicle ten meters away for random controls. This is ridiculous.

Got any evidence to prove increases in crime rates, or that any increases are to do with foreign criminals, or is it just an assumption or anecdotal? I mean, we've been seeing overall drops in crime in Western Europe over the years even since the Eastern states joined, so it seems illogical to try and blame them for a rise in crime which, national statistics indicate at least, isn't actually there.

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#25

Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:44 PM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 06:24 PM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 16:38)
QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 17:33)
Sure it makes trade between countries more efficient. But I live near the boarder and since the boarders are open the boarder-criminality has increased drastically, especially when it comes to stealing cars. Instead of sitting in a control-hut the men from the boarder police sit in their police vehicle ten meters away for random controls. This is ridiculous.

Got any evidence to prove increases in crime rates, or that any increases are to do with foreign criminals, or is it just an assumption or anecdotal? I mean, we've been seeing overall drops in crime in Western Europe over the years even since the Eastern states joined, so it seems illogical to try and blame them for a rise in crime which, national statistics indicate at least, isn't actually there.

Do you think I am lying? http://www.abendblat...s-im-Osten.html


"Besonders betroffen sei der Osten Deutschlands. In Berlin würden die meisten Autos geklaut. Die Behörden registrierten dort eine Zunahme der dauerhaften Diebstähle seit 2007 um knapp 60 Prozent auf 4189. Auf dem zweiten und dritten Platz liegen das bevölkerungsreiche Nordrhein-Westfalen (4000 verschwundene Pkw) sowie Brandenburg (rund 1500 Pkw). Die höchsten Steigerungsraten bei den dauerhaft verschwundenen Autos seit 2007 gibt es in Sachsen (plus 98 Prozent), Brandenburg (plus 96 Prozent) und Hamburg (plus 78 Prozent)"

Increase since 2007:

Saxony: +98%
Brandenburg: +96%


only for the border region of Brandenburg: http://www.tagesspie...on/6311096.html

Increase since 2007:

Brandenburg: +275%

Anyway, this is not the topic of this thread.

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#26

Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 17:44)
Do you think I am lying?

I didn't accuse you of lying, I asked you to quantify it given that general German crime figures have dropped instead of risen. I see that your comments are only in relation to car crime- which is understandable given proximity to the border and the fact the Brandenburg region is relatively deprived as far as German regions go. That isn't a general argument that "immigration increases crime", which appears to be what you are insinuating.

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#27

Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:32 PM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 06:38 PM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 18:24)
QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 17:44)
Do you think I am lying?

I didn't accuse you of lying, I asked you to quantify it given that general German crime figures have dropped instead of risen. I see that your comments are only in relation to car crime- which is understandable given proximity to the border and the fact the Brandenburg region is relatively deprived as far as German regions go. That isn't a general argument that "immigration increases crime", which appears to be what you are insinuating.

I did never say that the car thieves were immigrants. I chose car stealing because it is the best example for border criminality and cars are one of the most valuable things affected. The second article says that 72% of suspects are Polish or Lithuanian.

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#28

Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:58 PM

But logically the greatest concentration of foreign citizens in Germany are in the largest Westerly cities, and their crime rates have dropped quite dramatically. The car crime example is a bit of a statistical anomaly given the overall decrease in crime, surely?

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#29

Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 12:22)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Jan 24 2013, 02:19)
From a purely economic standpoint, the way the EU and Eurozone is designed right now is complete garbage. Plain and simple - you can't have a currency union in place without a strong political union. It just doesn't work. Unless the countries of Europe are willing to truly federalize themselves into a European federation, the macroeconomic prospects are poor.

I think the most substantial benefits lie in the fact that the EU is effectively borderless.

That's irrelevant when you have shared monetary policy in a place that isn't politically unified. It's different in the case of Britain, but I'm talking the Eurozone in general as well as the EU - there has to be a much more powerful political union for it to work.

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#30

Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:07 PM Edited by Stephan123, 23 January 2013 - 07:10 PM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 18:58)
But logically the greatest concentration of foreign citizens in Germany are in the largest Westerly cities, and their crime rates have dropped quite dramatically. The car crime example is a bit of a statistical anomaly given the overall decrease in crime, surely?

West Germany has a smaller unemployment rate and much higher average wage than East Germany, all 30 DAX companies have their headquarter in West Germany (one is in West-Berlin). So maybe the general crime rate in Germany has dropped in the last years. I don't know. Do you have a statistic?

But car stealings have increased by 22,5% in Germany from 2007-2012 and in border regions of East Germany the rate is 10 times higher. It's not only about cars, also pure metal from train rails and agricultural engines are affected.

But please, can we get back to the topic?




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