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Wanted System

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Deffpony
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#1

Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:23 PM Edited by deffpony, 25 January 2013 - 04:53 AM.

user posted image


I think alot of people would agree in saying that GTA IV had the best wanted system in the series. But those same people will tell you that there should still be alot of fixes and tweaks to the wanted system. It gets old trying to find the longest strip of open road and then just hauling ass down it in order to lose your wanted level.

Line Of Sight

When cops are looking for you they should have a line of sight. This line of sight can be like a 115 degree arch that displays on the HUD around each police icon. Within this arch you are visible and the wanted area will center on you. But outside of this arc you can slip by un noticed. This will create more creative ways t flee the police as well as ad importance to stealth and cover mechanics within the game.

QUOTE (Forty)
For many of the reasons already explained here, it would add to the immersion and allow you to stealthily sneak away from a couple of cops who happen to be looking the other way. While in high wanted level scenarios this might not be as effective (as it shouldn't be), it could present much more satisfaction to escaping from lesser crimes.


QUOTE (Forty)
Line of sight would also add a wrinkle to the heists, or any situation that requires you to sneak by guards or any other peds. Sure, you could blow the guy's head off, but maybe there's more reward to be had for taking the quiet route and waiting for him to walk the other direction. This also lets we, the players, decide what kind of robbers we want to be and further expands the fun factor.


QUOTE (meta187)
A police officer's line of sight may be directly affected by your stealth and use of the cover system. If you ditched the stolen vehicle and you took proper measures to be concealed you should be able to squat and take a piss in an alley while a small herd of police cars drive on by and eventually lose track of you as opposed to magically making a bee-line right to your location as Mainland Monkeyface brought up.

I do think as you mentioned that should have a balance to it. If you've racked up three stars or more they should be a lot more thorough in searching an area, even going as far as asking random peds on the street, "Did you see a red headed tranny with freckles, wearing a tennis ball green polka dot dress come through here? Where did he go?!" From there the ped you ran by earlier would reply and the officer would start searching frantically and much closer to your location.


QUOTE (DTUman)
Being able to duck into alleyways and have the cops speed past you, and eventually loosing your wanted level as a result, would add to the overall strategy of cop evasion in the game IMO; as well as, as others have said, being more creative when it comes to committing crimes and getting away with them.


QUOTE (Dick Valor )
they could always add little cones representing police line of sight like in MGS, or turn the police icons into arrows like the player (to avoid cluttering up the radar). Another way this can be improved is with the addition of more stealth mechanics. In IV, you could occasionally shoot someone in an alley and not get a wanted level because no one is around, but other times it seemed as though the police just know where you are and what you've done without any witnesses present. A witness mechanic, like in RDR, might remedy this.


Making an ID

In IV simply obtaining a new vehicle was not enough to lose lower wanted levels. The same is true for clothing. As a game built around heists V needs to have a better sense of cops making an ID on you, the criminal. If Franklin murders a group gangbangers while he wears a green bandana, taking off the bandana should be enough to prevent cops from IDing him as long as he lays low. This means no running red lights or wielding a weapon. This would obviously only work with the lower wanted levels but it helps players commit crimes more creatively.

The same goes for vehicles. If you pickup a new ride with two stars and no one sees you enter the vehicle you should be able to drive past cops with a low profile.

QUOTE (TheGreatGig23)
I adore the idea of taking someone out in the desert, the cops being alerted to the scene, and I simply drive past them as they cannot verify my ID, looking back at their puzzled faces and furious reactions. Shoot-outs in alleyways instantly become more strategic, using the mini-map to plan your exit and time it perfectly. Store robberies can either go brilliantly well or horribly catastrophic, depending on whether or not you remembered to put on your bandanna.


QUOTE (Forty)
If you are being hunted and duck into an alley, you could pull off a bandana, take off your hat, or maybe remove your top layer shirt and walk out the other side. Maybe up close the cops could still recognize you, or if you stand in plain sight too long, but if they are at range (even if facing you), then maybe it allows you a few moments to create some distance. As well, you should be able to change cars out of view of officers and pass by them easily.


QUOTE (DeeperRed)
If you ditch your car and steal another one to evade the police then it better be a parked one, as no doubt after the person reports it the police would put 2 and 2 together to work out its you.


QUOTE (Dick Valor)
As you suggest, the bandana from RDR and similar clothes mechanics for concealing your ID would be a definite improvement and add another element of strategy.


QUOTE (toybasher)
The problem is the police recognize you too easily. If theres 9 cars infront and behind me I honestly doubt they will be able to get a good look at my face, especilly if for example im on a highway.Maybe after like 5 seconds or so, but in IV the milisecond they see you, they instantly know who you are.


Less Hud and More Events

As meta187 has suggested, V should have less of a Hud displayed wanted system and more of a police actions displayed wanted system...

QUOTE (meta187)
...what if the only way you could gauge just how deep in the sh*t you are is by observing what is actually going on around you? ...


QUOTE (meta187)
You're going down the street in a stolen car, a police cruiser a few cars back notices your plates match a stolen vehicle. He doesn't turn on his lights at first, what he does do is quietly tail you. After a time you notice this and start to drive a little recklessly. Sadly, as a result of this that previously mentioned Hot Dog Vendor gets clipped as you curb check at an intersection trying to evade the officer. Now his lights are on and you can hear him speaking over a loud speaker about pulling over immediately.

From there you tear through the streets without a care, crashing into vehicles (gaining an unseen wanted rating), drive over a few more pedestrians (gaining an unseen wanted rating) and even fire a few shots back at your pursuer (gaining an unseen wanted rating). The only way you know things are getting more serious is the sound of sirens, police radio chatter and circling helicopters is getting more and more intense as a dragnet starts closing in around you. You book your way into a tunnel leading to a bridge and think that maybe just maybe you've shaken them off as the rabble fades behind you.

Upon exiting the tunnel you have a fresh as f*ck, "Oh sh!t" moment as you drive over a newly laid spike strip and puncture all four of your tires, your vehicle tips forward on it's side and goes careening off into an awaiting swat team blockade that's set up shop just for you. Bullets expertly rip through your vehicle as it tumbles forward through the air and goes crashing into the blockade (something they did not plan for), crushing officers and smashing into N.O.O.S.E. vans alike.


QUOTE (DTUMan)
I think that GTA V should take ideas from Red Dead Redemption's wanted level system that instead of having star levels, why not have something similar to the bounty? In Red Dead Redemption, I liked how you would not have lawmen come after you after you kill so many of them, but you would still retain a bounty


QUOTE (Forty)
I think a blurring of the lines between the different wanted levels would also work well with something that meta suggested in not having the stars permanently on the HUD, which forces you to observe more closely what is happening and not rely on the menu to tell you how evil you are.


QUOTE (meta187)
I could see all screen display icons having a toggle that allows them to effortlessly drop down and then recede off the screen again, allowing the player the full view of what is surely going to be one of the grandest and highly detailed Open World games to date.

The stationary Heads Up Display has been a convention in every GTA installment since the beginning of the series but if they are looking to continue to make some ground breaking changes this time around the toggle display is something I think fans of the series are ready for even if they don't know it yet.

Back to the subject at hand this would also allow you a much clearer view of those searching you out in a Wanted Level situation and allow you to sink into the actual action elements of what is going on around you at the time.


QUOTE (deffpony)
Rather than your hud being on screen at all times I agree that it should be available for a short toggle. This way your not constantly aware of the increase decrease of your wanted level system. They could also give you audible cues like the police radio chatter to tell you that your attention has increased, like a "Shoot to kill" radio message at the equivalence of three stars


Crime Aftermath

QUOTE (DeeperRed)
I think to really advance it to the next level there needs to be an aftermath effect. Right now if you commit a crime and receive no wanted level then its done and dusted regardless of how you pulled it off. It would be great if you stole a car and then they reported it stolen afterwards meaning cops in the area would be looking for the plate number. This would make pay & sprays way more useful with the inclusion of plate swapping. If a car is parked there could be a variable that dictates how long after it was taken was it reported. This would mean throwing up a choice between taking a parked car to give yourself more time or taking on in the road because its better/faster.

GreatGig
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#2

Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

If there's one thing I have moaned and bitched about, it's the lack of line-of-sight and ID mechanics.

As one of the gamers who truly gets lost in Liberty City, I love nothing more than suiting up, getting a black Sentinel, and role-playing as the worlds greatest hitman. Unfortunately, in IV this was quite difficult to pull off in an "expert" manner seeing as though you'd get a wanted level quite easily. Fair enough, with 1-2 stars you could outrun the cops before they even get to the scene. That was always pretty cool. But if you were on the bad end of the luck spectrum, the cops would be all over you, ruining the moment and, sometimes, perhaps just a little, ruining the immersion.

I'd love to see the proposed ideas comes to life. I adore the idea of taking someone out in the desert, the cops being alerted to the scene, and I simply drive past them as they cannot verify my ID, looking back at their puzzled faces and furious reactions.

Of course, this isn't only perfect for role-playing, it's just a great idea in general. Shoot-outs in alleyways instantly become more strategic, using the mini-map to plan your exit and time it perfectly. Store robberies can either go brilliantly well or horribly catastrophic, depending on whether or not you remembered to put on your bandanna.

As for the gradual aggression, I never really had a problem with it in IV and it didn't really take anything away for me, but if it's something that can be improved then I'd love to read all about it.

Deffpony
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#3

Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:04 PM

I think that giving the players incentive to be creative would help on several levels. If you know the next mission you will be getting a serious wanted level you can plan strategically around exit strategies and slipping ID verificatios. Not only does it add to the sandbox feel we all know and love, but it is very rewarding to feel you got the best of the law.

I think if they make the police AI smarter while also rewarding you for intelligent criminal decisions it will add alot to the risk/risk reward factor.

Should you slowly get away in a back alley sliding behind the cops line of site, or aggressively high tail out of there leaving a trail of blood in your path. The first may take more time, but the second will prove more difficult.

meta187
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#4

Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:54 AM Edited by meta187, 23 January 2013 - 03:38 AM.

I really think there's something to that Line of Sight idea. I always find it annoying in any game when the law just magically and immediately knows when you've done something wrong like an angry pagan god striking from on high.

===============================================================================

I had a slightly radical idea earlier today and I guess once again it's coming from the "less is more" school of thought but what if they removed the flashing Wanted Stars all together or at least made the drop down HUD optional and less intrusive?



In all of the previous GTA's, in RDR and Saints Row you have a predominantly displayed flashing arcade game style Wanted Level. To be fair, it seems a bit more static than it did initially but what if the only way you could gauge just how deep in the sh*t you are is by observing what is actually going on around you?

People talk about immersion all the time but never truly want to give up the crutches to commit to it. See if you can picture this scenario:

You're going down the street in a stolen car, a police cruiser a few cars back notices your plates match a stolen vehicle. He doesn't turn on his lights at first, what he does do is quietly tail you. After a time you notice this and start to drive a little recklessly. Sadly, as a result of this that previously mentioned Hot Dog Vendor gets clipped as you curb check at an intersection trying to evade the officer. Now his lights are on and you can hear him speaking over a loud speaker about pulling over immediately.

From there you tear through the streets without a care, crashing into vehicles (gaining an unseen wanted rating), drive over a few more pedestrians (gaining an unseen wanted rating) and even fire a few shots back at your pursuer (gaining an unseen wanted rating). The only way you know things are getting more serious is the sound of sirens, police radio chatter and circling helicopters is getting more and more intense as a dragnet starts closing in around you. You book your way into a tunnel leading to a bridge and think that maybe just maybe you've shaken them off as the rabble fades behind you.

Upon exiting the tunnel you have a fresh as f*ck, "Oh sh!t" moment as you drive over a newly laid spike strip and puncture all four of your tires, your vehicle tips forward on it's side and goes careening off into an awaiting swat team blockade that's set up shop just for you. Bullets expertly rip through your vehicle as it tumbles forward through the air and goes crashing into the blockade (something they did not plan for), crushing officers and smashing into N.O.O.S.E. vans alike.

You done messed up now, boy.

user posted image


Nothing was removed or taken out at any time you could have turned your HUD back on or toggled it but at that very moment you got a genuine feeling of surprise as you realized just how much attention to yourself you'd been causing. All the same Wanted System mechanics, bells and whistles were indeed working but you were blissfully unaware of them until you came out of that tunnel and realized just how serious things had gotten.

Forty
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#5

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:48 AM Edited by Forty, 23 January 2013 - 01:50 AM.

Great ideas here.

I'm a big proponent of the line of sight concept and the ID system. Line of sight is an old mechanic that you can find as far back as Metal Gear Solid on PSX, or perhaps earlier. For many of the reasons already explained here, it would add to the immersion and allow you to stealthily sneak away from a couple of cops who happen to be looking the other way. While in high wanted level scenarios this might not be as effective (as it shouldn't be), it could present much more satisfaction to escaping from lesser crimes.

Let's say for instance that you hold up a corner store. After collecting the money, scaring the piss out of the shop owner, and maybe grabbing a Snickers bar for the road (You're hungry, but why wait?), you step out the back of the shop and into the alley. As you approach the corner, you pan to see two cops standing outside the store questioning the shop owner, and you crouch behind trash cans to wait for your moment. As soon as they turn enough that their backs are to you, you sneak off down the street the other way and blend in with the crowd. This would not be too complex of a mechanic as really the only addition is the line of sight. The other mechanics (crouch, cover, camera control) are already part of the franchise.

Line of sight would also add a wrinkle to the heists, or any situation that requires you to sneak by guards or any other peds. Sure, you could blow the guy's head off, but maybe there's more reward to be had for taking the quiet route and waiting for him to walk the other direction. This also lets we, the players, decide what kind of robbers we want to be and further expands the fun factor.

Additionally an ID system would go a long way toward adding variety into escapes and increasing immersion. If you are being hunted and duck into an alley, you could pull off a bandana, take off your hat, or maybe remove your top layer shirt and walk out the other side. Maybe up close the cops could still recognize you, or if you stand in plain sight too long, but if they are at range (even if facing you), then maybe it allows you a few moments to create some distance. As well, you should be able to change cars out of view of officers and pass by them easily. There is no omniscient way for them to know it's you, but previous installments have not had that distinction built in. I realize there are limitations to the options one could use in this situation, but changing a shirt or swapping hats with a hobo are not unrealistic- and frankly, any badass heist guy is going to have a change of clothes somewhere.

We've talked a lot about these features, and I don't particularly see how they'd be hard to implement. An ID system would essentially be an extension of line of sight, which is a tried and true method in stealth games. As loud and rowdy and raucous as GTA can be, there still needs to be a few sneaky gameplay mechanics to keep things fresh and let players have more replay value.

Deffpony
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#6

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:56 AM

^^Yea, I was really impressed with the new Hitman for these reasons. They really implemented these feature perfectly

DeeperRed
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#7

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:03 AM

I think to really advance it to the next level there needs to be an aftermath effect. Right now if you commit a crime and receive no wanted level then its done and dusted regardless of how you pulled it off. It would be great if you stole a car and then they reported it stolen afterwards meaning cops in the area would be looking for the plate number. This would make pay & sprays way more useful with the inclusion of plate swapping. If a car is parked there could be a variable that dictates how long after it was taken was it reported. This would mean throwing up a choice between taking a parked car to give yourself more time or taking on in the road because its better/faster.

This doesn't just have to pertain to car theft either. If you mug someone then there is a chance they go straight to the police and tell them or they might shrug it off. Without the wanted level star system, as suggested by Meta, this would work great as just like in real life you don't really know if you got away with it until the dust settles.

With the inclusion of all good ideas above it could make out running the police far more fun. If you ditch your car and steal another one to evade the police then it better be a parked one, as no doubt after the person reports it the police would put 2 and 2 together to work out its you.

Deffpony
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#8

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:17 AM

I like the aftermath concept. I think it would be fun to be driving through blaine county and suddenly you have 2 greyed out stars, and you hear the police radio saying "Suspect wanted for a hit and run in Vinewood, black male driving a red comet" Then you remember running over some cyclists in vinewood a few minutes prior.

The search circle would be back at the scene of the crime but you would still have the greyed out star, and if you are still driving the red comet you might get ID'd. This gives the potential of making getaways from the scene of a crime such as robberies.

I also think that they should include a way to divert police when in a cop car. So lets say you have 1-2 stars. You steal a cop car and get out of the police line of sight, then you can press L1 to bring up the police computer and an option for "Make a radio diversion". When you select it you will radio something like "Suspect in custody, heading back to station" This will drop the wanted level immediately.

But the catch is if you do this with 3 or more stars you will hear a radio response saying something in the order of "All units disregard, last radio call was sent from a stolen police cruiser in...your location" and then the search circle centers on you and units head your way.

This way 2 or less stars and you have a quick fix for losing the cops, but if you try and act slick with 3 or more it will get you more attention

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#9

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:26 AM

Clever idea pony boy. Makes sense as well as for low level 1-2 star crimes then it could be possible for a single cop to call it off however with three helicopters etc start getting involved so it would be only for a higher power to call it finished. I also think cop killing should be instant 3 star wanted level (or high profile if wanted stars go) because its considered extremely bad. It just felt a bit weak to gun down a fed in IV and so easily escape.

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#10

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:35 AM

I know some people get in a tizzy over the idea of incorporating stealth, because they want to be out in the open blasting everyone on the screen all the time. I say there are plenty of other games for that and GTA has evolved. I liked the cover system and it should be cleaned up and improved. But, as it is, the cops still home in on you like zombies.

I remember when I was starting out with IV and picked up a star doing something minor, so I run into the apartment in Hove Beach and hide in that space to the right of the staircase. Of course a cop comes right in and just magically knows where I am.

Bully had you shaking heat from hiding a lot. I generally like the direction the wanted system went toward in IV, but it needs refinement. I should not have to leave the neighborhood just to shake one star.

Deffpony
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#11

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:38 AM

QUOTE (Mainland Marauder @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 02:35)
I know some people get in a tizzy over the idea of incorporating stealth, because they want to be out in the open blasting everyone on the screen all the time. I say there are plenty of other games for that and GTA has evolved. I liked the cover system and it should be cleaned up and improved. But, as it is, the cops still home in on you like zombies.

I remember when I was starting out with IV and picked up a star doing something minor, so I run into the apartment in Hove Beach and hide in that space to the right of the staircase. Of course a cop comes right in and just magically knows where I am.

Bully had you shaking heat from hiding a lot. I generally like the direction the wanted system went toward in IV, but it needs refinement. I should not have to leave the neighborhood just to shake one star.

I think that the level on consistancy is also a problem in IV. Sometimes losing 1-2 stars is like a 20 minute ordeal. They just know exactly where you are. And other times a 5 star wanted level drops of like you didnt commit any crimes.

Stealth is important and should definitely be featured. And I think the cover system needs serious tweaking to help with this sort of thing... but thats another thread completely

meta187
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#12

Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:32 AM Edited by meta187, 23 January 2013 - 04:04 AM.

QUOTE (deffpony @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 02:38)
Stealth is important and should definitely be featured. And I think the cover system needs serious tweaking to help with this sort of thing... but thats another thread completely

In a fashion but they all do tie together. A police officer's line of sight may be directly affected by your stealth and use of the cover system. If you ditched the stolen vehicle and you took proper measures to be concealed you should be able to squat and take a piss in an alley while a small herd of police cars drive on by and eventually lose track of you as opposed to magically making a bee-line right to your location as Mainland Monkeyface brought up.

I do think as you mentioned that should have a balance to it. If you've racked up three stars or more they should be a lot more thorough in searching an area, even going as far as asking random peds on the street, "Did you see a red headed tranny with freckles, wearing a tennis ball green polka dot dress come through here? Where did he go?!" From there the ped you ran by earlier would reply and the officer would start searching frantically and much closer to your location.

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#13

Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:05 AM

The police AI needs to be far more intelligent in other ways too. I got so sick in IV when you had a 1 or 2 star wanted and the cops when in cars were like "oh there he is, lets powerslide into him at 60mph". The police need to be more tactical about their driving. In another thread someone said that they should set up unscripted roadblocks. This would add so much to higher level pursuits in terms of route choice. Another idea I had was to not have a wanted circle but to be wanted along roads and alleys near where you last committed a crime. This would make getaways along desert roads far more challenging.

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#14

Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:53 AM

I would absolutely love the idea of having stealth elements incorporated into the wanted level system of GTA V - being able to pull off crimes, hitman style, would really add to the overall feel and dynamic aspects of the game. Because, well, if you murder someone in the ghetto where there is hardly any police presence; why should you have the police instantly spawn and come after you when you get a one star wanted level? In GTA IV I could see how this works as Liberty City is very dense so it makes sense for there to be cops everywhere. However, in Los Santos; there is almost certainly going to be more dense areas as well as areas of less density.

I also like the idea of incorporating a line of sight system. For example, if you lured a target into an alleyway and killed the target that way you wouldn't attain a wanted level as opposed to killing them in the middle of a busy street which would gain you a wanted level. Being able to duck into alleyways and have the cops speed past you, and eventually loosing your wanted level as a result, would add to the overall strategy of cop evasion in the game IMO; as well as, as others have said, being more creative when it comes to committing crimes and getting away with them.

In fact, I think that GTA V should take ideas from Red Dead Redemption's wanted level system that instead of having star levels, why not have something similar to the bounty? In Red Dead Redemption, I liked how you would not have lawmen come after you after you kill so many of them, but you would still retain a bounty - something similar in GTA V would be awesome. In the GTA series, it eventually becomes very predictable in terms of what will happen at each star. i.e; two stars - police cars start chasing you, three starts - helicopter starts following you, four stars - SWAT teams start coming after you, etc. GTA IV did improve upon this by blurring the lines between each wanted level, but I still would like this aspect to be more dynamic and based on the specific situation or the crime. For example, if you blow up several vehicles in a street with a rocket launcher or if you kill a couple of police officers in a similar setting - I would like to see SWAT be sent after the player as well as a chopper flying overhead. Kill the SWAT; have the military and FIB be sent after the player and if you manage to escape out into the middle of nowhere - you loose the heat but you are still wanted by the law who will continue to actively track you down. You hide out in the country for a while, your wanted rating goes down gradually. This would work similar to the bounty system in Red Dead Redemption and I think it has the potential to work well in GTA V.

I am also hoping that the police AI is improved in GTA V. Red Dead Redemption strikes an almost perfect balance with regard to lawmen AI so I don't think the AI in GTA V will be too dissimilar to that of Red Dead Redemption.

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#15

Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:55 AM

Im currently on an all night study cram sesh, but tomorrow when my battery is recharged I will update the OP to reflect everyone's posts

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#16

Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:46 AM Edited by Racecarlock, 23 January 2013 - 07:48 AM.

QUOTE (Forty @ Tuesday, Jan 22 2013, 18:48)
Great ideas here.

I'm a big proponent of the line of sight concept and the ID system. Line of sight is an old mechanic that you can find as far back as Metal Gear Solid on PSX, or perhaps earlier. For many of the reasons already explained here, it would add to the immersion and allow you to stealthily sneak away from a couple of cops who happen to be looking the other way. While in high wanted level scenarios this might not be as effective (as it shouldn't be), it could present much more satisfaction to escaping from lesser crimes.

Let's say for instance that you hold up a corner store. After collecting the money, scaring the piss out of the shop owner, and maybe grabbing a Snickers bar for the road (You're hungry, but why wait?), you step out the back of the shop and into the alley. As you approach the corner, you pan to see two cops standing outside the store questioning the shop owner, and you crouch behind trash cans to wait for your moment. As soon as they turn enough that their backs are to you, you sneak off down the street the other way and blend in with the crowd. This would not be too complex of a mechanic as really the only addition is the line of sight. The other mechanics (crouch, cover, camera control) are already part of the franchise.

Line of sight would also add a wrinkle to the heists, or any situation that requires you to sneak by guards or any other peds. Sure, you could blow the guy's head off, but maybe there's more reward to be had for taking the quiet route and waiting for him to walk the other direction. This also lets we, the players, decide what kind of robbers we want to be and further expands the fun factor.

Additionally an ID system would go a long way toward adding variety into escapes and increasing immersion. If you are being hunted and duck into an alley, you could pull off a bandana, take off your hat, or maybe remove your top layer shirt and walk out the other side. Maybe up close the cops could still recognize you, or if you stand in plain sight too long, but if they are at range (even if facing you), then maybe it allows you a few moments to create some distance. As well, you should be able to change cars out of view of officers and pass by them easily. There is no omniscient way for them to know it's you, but previous installments have not had that distinction built in. I realize there are limitations to the options one could use in this situation, but changing a shirt or swapping hats with a hobo are not unrealistic- and frankly, any badass heist guy is going to have a change of clothes somewhere.

We've talked a lot about these features, and I don't particularly see how they'd be hard to implement. An ID system would essentially be an extension of line of sight, which is a tried and true method in stealth games. As loud and rowdy and raucous as GTA can be, there still needs to be a few sneaky gameplay mechanics to keep things fresh and let players have more replay value.

I agree with everything except the ID system and reckless driving laws. Both were present in mafia II and both annoyed the hell out of me.

Edit: Then again, maybe it only annoyed me in mafia II because there was no point in the game where a police car or patrol wasn't close enough to spot me whenever I so much as grazed a car. Hope V fixes that, because IV had that too.

Forty
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#17

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

QUOTE (DTUMan @ Tuesday, Jan 22 2013, 23:53)
In fact, I think that GTA V should take ideas from Red Dead Redemption's wanted level system that instead of having star levels, why not have something similar to the bounty? In Red Dead Redemption, I liked how you would not have lawmen come after you after you kill so many of them, but you would still retain a bounty - something similar in GTA V would be awesome. In the GTA series, it eventually becomes very predictable in terms of what will happen at each star. i.e; two stars - police cars start chasing you, three starts - helicopter starts following you, four stars - SWAT teams start coming after you, etc. GTA IV did improve upon this by blurring the lines between each wanted level, but I still would like this aspect to be more dynamic and based on the specific situation or the crime. For example, if you blow up several vehicles in a street with a rocket launcher or if you kill a couple of police officers in a similar setting - I would like to see SWAT be sent after the player as well as a chopper flying overhead. Kill the SWAT; have the military and FIB be sent after the player and if you manage to escape out into the middle of nowhere - you loose the heat but you are still wanted by the law who will continue to actively track you down. You hide out in the country for a while, your wanted rating goes down gradually. This would work similar to the bounty system in Red Dead Redemption and I think it has the potential to work well in GTA V.

I am also hoping that the police AI is improved in GTA V. Red Dead Redemption strikes an almost perfect balance with regard to lawmen AI so I don't think the AI in GTA V will be too dissimilar to that of Red Dead Redemption.

I agree that RDR's police system was very good, and I would expect Rockstar to contain elements of that in V. I think a blurring of the lines between the different wanted levels would also work well with something that meta suggested in not having the stars permanently on the HUD, which forces you to observe more closely what is happening and not rely on the menu to tell you how evil you are.

meta187
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#18

Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:15 PM Edited by meta187, 23 January 2013 - 03:33 PM.

QUOTE (Forty @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 14:00)
I agree that RDR's police system was very good, and I would expect Rockstar to contain elements of that in V. I think a blurring of the lines between the different wanted levels would also work well with something that meta suggested in not having the stars permanently on the HUD, which forces you to observe more closely what is happening and not rely on the menu to tell you how evil you are.

Skyrim is of course a very different game than GTA thematically but we could take a note from them (since they admittedly took notes on RDR) in that they seemed to take a innovative step in the right direction by making all HUD peripherals as unobtrusive as possible. You take in the whole scene and appreciate the living breathing postcard you're in to a much greater degree when there isn't a constant visual reminder that you are in fact playing a video game.

I could see all screen display icons having a toggle that allows them to effortlessly drop down and then recede off the screen again, allowing the player the full view of what is surely going to be one of the grandest and highly detailed Open World games to date.

The stationary Heads Up Display has been a convention in every GTA installment since the beginning of the series but if they are looking to continue to make some ground breaking changes this time around the toggle display is something I think fans of the series are ready for even if they don't know it yet.

Back to the subject at hand this would also allow you a much clearer view of those searching you out in a Wanted Level situation and allow you to sink into the actual action elements of what is going on around you at the time.

I Shot The Sheriff
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#19

Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:19 PM

As you pointed out, being the game focused on heists one would expect such improvements.

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#20

Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:21 PM

I'd like to see wanted levels slowly decay over time to represent police slowly giving up on the chase if you stay out of sight and don't commit anymore crimes.

In GTA IV you could punch a guy in the face, then hide in an allyway inside the search circle forever and the star would never expire. How does it make any sense? If the police do not know where you are, why do they NEVER call off the alert untill you escape the wanted circle? How do they know when I've left the search perimeter, and wait untill only then to call it off?

GTA V should do away with IV's "Wanted Radius" system entirely. Lets bring back the army too. Having tanks, jeeps with mounted guns, APCs chasing you would be awesomesauce.

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#21

Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:44 PM

Some superb ideas here Gents icon14.gif .

Line of sight; cars with heat; and not pulling their gun unless in retaliation will all move the game forward!

I loved the improvement on the wanted system in IV, but it was too intense and not enjoyable at times. Needs to be readdressed, and I'm sure it will.

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#22

Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:33 PM Edited by Dick Valor, 23 January 2013 - 07:35 PM.

QUOTE (deffpony @ Tuesday, Jan 22 2013, 21:23)
I think some of the most important changes are those that are the simplest. Here are a few. [LIST]
•Line of sight- others have brought this idea up in the past and it appears to be probably the most desired fix. When cops are looking for you they should have a line of sight. This line of sight can be like a 115 degree arch that displays on the HUD around each police icon. Within this arch you are visible and the wanted area will center on you. But outside of this arc you can slip by un noticed.

•Gradual progression of police aggression- in IV 2 stars apparently constituted a shotgun blast to the face. This felt a little extreme and some times you would be seemingly minding your own business when suddenly a cop kills you with two shotgun rounds. As the camera pans out on your dead body you realize you had 2 stars for running over a hot dog vender a block back.

Cops shouldn't start shooting until you shoot first. Having two stars without shooting a weapon means they will still aggressively try and arrest you but won't try and give you led poisoning.

•Making an ID- in IV simply obtaining a new vehicle was not enough to lose lower wanted levels. The same is true for clothing. As a game built around heists V needs to have a better sense of cops making an ID on you, the criminal. If Franklin murders a group gangbangers while he wears a green bandana, taking off the bandana should be enough to prevent cops from IDing him as long as he lays low. This means no running red lights or wielding a weapon. This would obviously only work with the lower wanted levels but it helps players commit crimes more creatively.

The same goes for vehicles. If you pickup a new ride with two stars and no one sees you enter the vehicle you should be able to drive past cops with a low profile.

Many of these ideas were already implemented in IV, they just need improvement:

Line of sight is already an integral part of IV's wanted system. The radius only remains centered on the player when they are within the police's line of sight. It is only when out of their line of sight that you can escape the radius without it following you. Of course, they could always add little cones representing police line of sight like in MGS, or turn the police icons into arrows like the player (to avoid cluttering up the radar). Another way this can be improved is with the addition of more stealth mechanics. In IV, you could occasionally shoot someone in an alley and not get a wanted level because no one is around, but other times it seemed as though the police just know where you are and what you've done without any witnesses present. A witness mechanic, like in RDR, might remedy this. Also, silenced weapons will also reduce the likelihood of getting a wanted level when killing in the shadows. In any case, the line of sight mechanic does need to be tweaked/refined.

Making an ID is also already a part of IV's wanted system. When you have a wanted level and steal another vehicle without being in the police's line of sight, they won't look for you in that vehicle. Even in the line-of-sight of helis directly overhead, you can escape the search radius undetected. However, the cops do know what you look like as they have IDed you, so you can't face them dead on at the street level. Whenever you're slipping out of a search radius in a car the police aren't looking for, you still need to avoid letting the police see your face, so it is best to turn whenever you see the cops coming (or at least pull over and let them pass by you). So you can drive past cops with a low profile in IV, you just have to be clever about it and always have your back to them. As you suggest, the bandana from RDR and similar clothes mechanics for concealing your ID would be a definite improvement and add another element of strategy.

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#23

Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

QUOTE
Making an ID is also already a part of IV's wanted system.  When you have a wanted level and steal another vehicle without being in the police's line of sight, they won't look for you in that vehicle.  Even in the line-of-sight of helis directly overhead, you can escape the search radius undetected.  However, the cops do know what you look like as they have IDed you, so you can't face them dead on at the street level.  Whenever you're slipping out of a search radius in a car the police aren't looking for, you still need to avoid letting the police see your face, so it is best to turn whenever you see the cops coming (or at least pull over and let them pass by you).  So you can drive past cops with a low profile in IV, you just have to be clever about it and always have your back to them.  As you suggest, the bandana from RDR and similar clothes mechanics for concealing your ID would be a definite improvement and add another element of strategy.

The problem is the police recognize you too easily. If theres 9 cars infront and behind me I honestly doubt they will be able to get a good look at my face, especilly if for example im on a highway.

Also you'd have to take into account that windshields are reflective/tinted, so they shouldn't be able to INSTANTLY recognize the player. Maybe after like 5 seconds or so, but in IV the milisecond they see you, they instantly know who you are.

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#24

Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE (toybasher @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 19:38)
QUOTE
Making an ID is also already a part of IV's wanted system.  When you have a wanted level and steal another vehicle without being in the police's line of sight, they won't look for you in that vehicle.  Even in the line-of-sight of helis directly overhead, you can escape the search radius undetected.  However, the cops do know what you look like as they have IDed you, so you can't face them dead on at the street level.  Whenever you're slipping out of a search radius in a car the police aren't looking for, you still need to avoid letting the police see your face, so it is best to turn whenever you see the cops coming (or at least pull over and let them pass by you).  So you can drive past cops with a low profile in IV, you just have to be clever about it and always have your back to them.  As you suggest, the bandana from RDR and similar clothes mechanics for concealing your ID would be a definite improvement and add another element of strategy.

The problem is the police recognize you too easily. If theres 9 cars infront and behind me I honestly doubt they will be able to get a good look at my face, especilly if for example im on a highway.

Also you'd have to take into account that windshields are reflective/tinted, so they shouldn't be able to INSTANTLY recognize the player. Maybe after like 5 seconds or so, but in IV the milisecond they see you, they instantly know who you are.

Agreed. It needs to be tweaked so that it's like a timer as opposed to being instantaneous, just as you suggest. icon14.gif

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#25

Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:15 PM

QUOTE (Dick Valor @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 20:11)
QUOTE (toybasher @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 19:38)
QUOTE
Making an ID is also already a part of IV's wanted system.  When you have a wanted level and steal another vehicle without being in the police's line of sight, they won't look for you in that vehicle.  Even in the line-of-sight of helis directly overhead, you can escape the search radius undetected.  However, the cops do know what you look like as they have IDed you, so you can't face them dead on at the street level.  Whenever you're slipping out of a search radius in a car the police aren't looking for, you still need to avoid letting the police see your face, so it is best to turn whenever you see the cops coming (or at least pull over and let them pass by you).  So you can drive past cops with a low profile in IV, you just have to be clever about it and always have your back to them.  As you suggest, the bandana from RDR and similar clothes mechanics for concealing your ID would be a definite improvement and add another element of strategy.

The problem is the police recognize you too easily. If theres 9 cars infront and behind me I honestly doubt they will be able to get a good look at my face, especilly if for example im on a highway.

Also you'd have to take into account that windshields are reflective/tinted, so they shouldn't be able to INSTANTLY recognize the player. Maybe after like 5 seconds or so, but in IV the milisecond they see you, they instantly know who you are.

Agreed. It needs to be tweaked so that it's like a timer as opposed to being instantaneous, just as you suggest. icon14.gif

Something along the lines of what AC3 has, starts of with yellow thing over their head filling up, you stay in LOS too long and they recognize you, run round a corner the thing turns white and they can't see where you went....


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#26

Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:56 AM

hey guys sry I have been slacking... I updated the OP to include most of the ideas in a collective fashion, I still need to add some things but I will get to that tomorrow.

I gotta say I really like the ideas. Less HUD for wanted levels is a great idea, as well as having crime resonance like DeeperRed said. I also like the idea of having wanted levels fade out after certain time frames, as well as your pursuers being detered by you killing them.


Keep em coming

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#27

Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:03 AM

QUOTE (Dick Valor @ Wednesday, Jan 23 2013, 19:33)
QUOTE (deffpony @ Tuesday, Jan 22 2013, 21:23)
I think some of the most important changes are those that are the simplest. Here are a few. [LIST]
•Line of sight- others have brought this idea up in the past and it appears to be probably the most desired fix. When cops are looking for you they should have a line of sight. This line of sight can be like a 115 degree arch that displays on the HUD around each police icon. Within this arch you are visible and the wanted area will center on you. But outside of this arc you can slip by un noticed.

•Gradual progression of police aggression- in IV 2 stars apparently constituted a shotgun blast to the face. This felt a little extreme and some times you would be seemingly minding your own business when suddenly a cop kills you with two shotgun rounds. As the camera pans out on your dead body you realize you had 2 stars for running over a hot dog vender a block back.

Cops shouldn't start shooting until you shoot first. Having two stars without shooting a weapon means they will still aggressively try and arrest you but won't try and give you led poisoning.

•Making an ID- in IV simply obtaining a new vehicle was not enough to lose lower wanted levels. The same is true for clothing. As a game built around heists V needs to have a better sense of cops making an ID on you, the criminal. If Franklin murders a group gangbangers while he wears a green bandana, taking off the bandana should be enough to prevent cops from IDing him as long as he lays low. This means no running red lights or wielding a weapon. This would obviously only work with the lower wanted levels but it helps players commit crimes more creatively.

The same goes for vehicles. If you pickup a new ride with two stars and no one sees you enter the vehicle you should be able to drive past cops with a low profile.

Many of these ideas were already implemented in IV, they just need improvement:

Line of sight is already an integral part of IV's wanted system. The radius only remains centered on the player when they are within the police's line of sight. It is only when out of their line of sight that you can escape the radius without it following you. Of course, they could always add little cones representing police line of sight like in MGS, or turn the police icons into arrows like the player (to avoid cluttering up the radar). Another way this can be improved is with the addition of more stealth mechanics. In IV, you could occasionally shoot someone in an alley and not get a wanted level because no one is around, but other times it seemed as though the police just know where you are and what you've done without any witnesses present. A witness mechanic, like in RDR, might remedy this. Also, silenced weapons will also reduce the likelihood of getting a wanted level when killing in the shadows. In any case, the line of sight mechanic does need to be tweaked/refined.

Making an ID is also already a part of IV's wanted system. When you have a wanted level and steal another vehicle without being in the police's line of sight, they won't look for you in that vehicle. Even in the line-of-sight of helis directly overhead, you can escape the search radius undetected. However, the cops do know what you look like as they have IDed you, so you can't face them dead on at the street level. Whenever you're slipping out of a search radius in a car the police aren't looking for, you still need to avoid letting the police see your face, so it is best to turn whenever you see the cops coming (or at least pull over and let them pass by you). So you can drive past cops with a low profile in IV, you just have to be clever about it and always have your back to them. As you suggest, the bandana from RDR and similar clothes mechanics for concealing your ID would be a definite improvement and add another element of strategy.

Thank f*ck somebody else realizes this!!!

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#28

Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:09 AM

The line of sight and ID mechanics in IV were not very good. It was too inconsistent to be utilized correctly.

Like marauder said sometimes the cops just know where you are.

down2buisness
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#29

Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:15 AM Edited by down2buisness, 25 January 2013 - 05:27 AM.

QUOTE (deffpony @ Tuesday, Jan 22 2013, 21:23) user posted image

Lol and still laughing at that police car GIF.. "Just doing the job" I hope you got your money back when she was finished...

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#30

Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:15 PM

QUOTE (down2buisness @ Friday, Jan 25 2013, 05:15)
QUOTE (deffpony @ Tuesday, Jan 22 2013, 21:23) user posted image

Lol and still laughing at that police car GIF.. "Just doing the job" I hope you got your money back when she was finished...

Wat are you talking about money. I made that gif.

Anyways, I really like the idea of adding possibilities for police diversions. If done correctly they could really add to the dynamic of getaways.




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