|QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Thursday, Jun 14 2012, 20:17)|
| There is no "social contract", just a declaration by the state of what happens to you if you don't do A, B, and C. |
there absolutely IS a social contract.
and you explained it in your following sentence.
| A contract is something two consenting adults voluntarily enter. |
and the day you turned 18 you became a consenting adult. prior to that time, you were not consenting. but you were in the legal custody of your parents who obviously did consent. and long before you turned 18, you were well aware of the laws and responsibilities that adulthood in this country would bring. so technically you had the opportunity to opt out of this contract by moving away to a country with (perhaps) a different contract.
but you didn't move.
upon turning 18 and choosing to stay in this country to live and to work, you have consented to the social contract of taxation.
| The idea that the collective somehow magically has the moral authority to use the initiation of force (including imprisonment or being shot) against individuals who don't obey their every whim is sickening. |
ok I'm tired of you using this bullsh*t angle of attack.
I'm sorry but it's little more than bullsh*t.
now regarding the notion that "majority does not define morality;" I wholeheartedly agree with you.
in fact it's hard to dispute that point in any sense. as a matter of principle you're right: majority does not make moral authority.
but here's where it turns to bullsh*t.
when you try to use the principle to call a public service such as taxation "sickening," that's utter bullsh*t.
forfeiting a fraction of your paycheck to ensure that your neighborhood and family are protected with the same basic securities as any other member of the community is not sickening. it's smart, it's efficient, it's economical, and it's perfectly in accordance with the Golden Rule; treat others as you would hope to be treated and do good for the sake of doing good. you don't have to agree with EVERY action taken by your government in order to realize that the foundation of taxation is an indispensable good.
I didn't agree with our invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan.
but I didn't stop paying taxes because of it. we still need to fix potholes, pay teachers, and ensure that fires don't spread across cities.
to say that taxation is "sickening" because it (might) technically violate the principle of moral majority is a high school argument at best.
like I've mentioned before in other debates; I got tired of arguing theory a long time ago in the early days of grad school.
we can sit here ALL DAY and AGREE with each other about moral principles inside the vacuum of absolute relativity... if that's what you wanna' do.
but if you actually want to progress the discussion from useless supposition
to functional plausibility
then you're gonna' have to meet me halfway.
I don't care about your principles.
I care about reality and how principles merge with practice. you don't seem to be interested in that, but that's the only way an issue like this is ever going to see any traction.
| Putting someone in prison (and shooting them if they resist being put in a cage) is extremely serious. |
sure, I agree. see how boring that is?
| I would never advocate something that drastic unless I was personally willing to do it myself. |
that's fine... in principle.
but that doesn't make any sense... in reality.
I think you see where this is going.
by which I mean nowhere fast.
most agree that murder and theft and rape are wrong.
but are most people going to personally get involved in a rape/theft/murder attack - in order to stop the transgression from happening - JUST
to prove that they believe in their morals??
and they shouldn't have to. that's absurd. that's what civil society is for. that's what taxes are for. for the people who volunteered to uphold the contract, to get involved in these situations in order to maintain safety at large.
| I would not hold a gun to someone's head to get them to fund a library or fire department. |
I wouldn't either.
I'd quietly rat them out to the IRS and watch them be taken away to prison by someone who is paid to do that sort of thing.
you know, like any good citizen would do.