Oh heavens, you're a follower of Kent Hovind. No small wonder why you're so misled.
|1) Atheist: Who created God?|
I hear this argument all the time! Atheist use this argument frequently to disprove the existence of God. I understand the argument, I do, but there are many flaws. First of all, the question "who created God?" ASSUMES that God is limited. It assumes that God has a beginning and will therefor have an end. But the God of the Bible doesn't have a limit, He doesn't have a beginning and an end. God was never created because He does not consist of the unaware created matter, but by the aware eternal spiritual energy. Besides, God can't have been created by someone else, because God by definition is FIRST, the reason of all cause! God was first. How on Earth's name can the first one be created? That's like asking "what letter comes before A?".
THE CREATER COULD NOT HAVE BEEN CREATED BECAUSE IN THAT CASE HE WOULDN'T BE THE CREATOR!
If you accept that, by the laws of nature, all things have a beginning and an end, you cannot magically remove those properties from something can then call it God. It's breaking your own rules. Also, it's really not like asking what comes before the letter A, because the all alphabets are known to have been structured and created by man, whereas God is supposed to be a natural non-man made force.
Where did Big Bang come from? Big Bang, according to the text books, created everything in the universe. It therefor created time, space and matter as well. Which came first? Without space, where do you put matter? Without time, WHEN do you put matter? You see how time, space and matter must have been created at the EXACT same time? Big Bang teaches us that everything created itself out of absolutely nothing. Let me ask you this. How did Big Bang explode? Where did the energy for this explosion come from? Out of nowhere? Where did time, space and matter come from? Out of nowhere? For some reason, people really believe Big Bang occured. People seriously believe that everything in existence created itself out of absolutely nothing.
All we know about the Big Bang is theory is that the universe was at one point much hotter and denser than it is right now and then a bunch of stuff happened (which you can look up because I'm not a quantum mechanics expert) that led to the rapid expansion and cooling of the universe. The energy came from the existing matter and antimatter at the time. Where space, time, and matter came from isn't really know as far as I'm aware, just theorized. And yes, people believe the Big Bang happened because, based on scientific study of our universe, it is a much more plausible explanation for the creation of the universe than a magic man in the sky.
|The universe must have an original cause!|
There has to be a first original cause otherwise the universe wouldn't exist. Matter can't be the first cause becase life, awareness and intelligence can simply not plop out of lifeless matter. Matter cannot have created itself. To believe that matter is the original cause of the universe is the same as believing that mud is the cause of the crock. By practical experience every human knows that there's NOTHING which can create itself out of nothing. Mud had a creator. Believing that something can create itself is a stupid fable and only narrow minded atheists will believe that. (Sorry for being a tad harsh but it's true)
Not believing in an original first cause which created our universe is as stupid as believing that everything we see around us came out of nothingness.
God is in His original spiritual shape forever in the spiritual world, in God's kingdom, which was never created and will never be gone. Humans are just by nature greedy and full of pride. We want to be God's ourselves, we want to follow our own rules. The suffering in this world is a wake up call for all of us to realize that we do not belong here in this world full of evil of pain.
Alright, knock off the "His Kingdom" bullsh*t. Nobody wants to listen to a holy roller talk about how great their god is. If you want to argue anything, argue from facts, not the unstable emotions you have for your imaginary friend. That being said, just because you assume everything needs a cause doesn't mean everything needs a creator or intention. Also, life CAN originate from nonliving things. It's called abiogenesis, look it up. You are extremely uninformed about a number of basic scientific concepts that explain our origins and what's worse, you're insulting about it. "Narrow-minded atheists" look at actual repeatable and testable scientific evidence to back up their belief. You trust in a 2000 year old book written by people even dumber than we are now, then rewritten hundreds of times so that the original texts no longer exist. And you put your faith of how the universe created in such a thing? THAT is narrow-minded.
|2) Atheist: God does not exist!|
That is a definite assumption, an absolute. Only someone who's all knowing can come with definite assumptions like that. Are you all knowing? By saying something like that you sure make it seem like that. In that case, you're God! Because you know EVERYTHING there is!
But no man knows everything, we know very little in ratio to what there is to know. But let's just assume for one moment that you know 50% of everything. That's a lot of knowledge. What if God exists on the other side, the other 50%?
There's a such thing as agnosticism and gnosticism. Agnostics believe something but do not claim to know it. Gnostics believe something but claim to know it. There are agnostic atheists (believing there is no god but not claiming to know it) and there are gnostic atheists (believing there is no god and claiming to know it). Don't assume we're all gnostic atheists, because we're not. I'm an agnostic atheist. Anyone who is gnostic about their beliefs is not very smart.
As for your question on the end there, you can throw out hypotheticals all you want, it doesn't help you prove a god exists.
|3) Atheist: The existence of God is illogical.|
If you think that it's illogical for God to exist, did you ever stop to think the same thing about yourself? Do you think it's logial for you to exist? Why is your own existence more logial than God's? To believe that our own existence came about without an existing cause is the same as believing that sunrays can exist without the sun.
Depending on your definition of God, certain definitions can be logical or illogical. I'd say most are illogical and the rest are worth being skeptical about. If anything, the point to be argued should be about likelihood. Based on evidence, it doesn't seem very likely that the God of the Bible exists and has done what the Bible says he has done. Based on evidence as well, it's not likely that I should exist either because of the complex processes that led to my being. That is why life is so spectacular. However, I am known to exist and I am not supernatural, so it is much more likely that I exist than any god because I am more demonstrable and believable.
Also, as I said, believing that we came about through natural processes like abiogenesis, natural selection, and evolution are not the same as "believing that sunrays can exist without the Sun." These processes are much more logical and evident than any claim of a divine creator to date.
|4) Atheist: Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it Himself? And if he can't lift it, he's not almighty.|
God is so almighty that He can expand Himself in two seperate shapes in which he lifts the rock in one, and does not lift the rock in the other shape. Besides, God is infinitely strong so it's a piece of cake for Him to lift a rock which is infinitely heavy.
If I would ask you to draw a square triangle what would you do? Would you take out your pencil and draw one? No you wouldn't because you know that a triangle per definition has three sides, not four. To draw a "square triangle" says nothing about your ability to draw triangles (or squares) because a "square triangle" is simply a nonsense expression I made up by puttin two words together. A rock so heavy no one can lift it is the same nonsense expression because a rock is per definition an object with a weight and can always be lifted assuming you're strong enough. To talk about a "rock to heavy for anyone to lift" is just as much nonsense as a square triangle. The "argument" is not a proper argument against God or his Almightyness, it's just a game with words. It's a logical contradiction, which is indeed pretty funny, but it does not hold up as an argument.
Ehh, sorry, but your explanation doesn't really work out. An infinitely heavy rock is not the same as a square triangle. Just because something is given the definition of weight does not mean that it, by that definition, must be able to be lifted. Also, I like your goofy God = Wonder Twin idea where he splits himself in two, where he would simply be lifting the rock. Still, the paradox (which is logical) does not get to the point, because while it questions being all-powerful, a better paradox challenges his morals and character: Can the God fof the Bible commit suicide? You would say yes, but he won't because it's against his moral character. In that case, he can never commit suicide because it goes against his character. If he did it, he would be breaking his character and we should not trust his morals and law.
|5) Atheist: Prove God!|
Atheists always demand God to appear Himself in front of their eyes before they will start believing. This is simply pride and God does not answer prideful challenges just as much as the President of USA would pay you a visit without you giving him any worthy qualifications which caught his attention. Ask yourself this: Do you, as an atheist, deserve to have a personal visit by the Almighty? What are your qualifications? When you can't even get the President of USA to pay you a visit, what makes you think God would appear in His all Greatness in front of your very eyes? It's the opposite. Atheists despise God, they spit on Him and do not want to get rid of their illusion that God does not exist. They want it to stay that way and because God does not interfere with the free will, the atheist will never feel the presence of God until he change his attitude. For the atheist, God will prove His existence when it's too late, when you're dead.
You cannot *see* God until you *realize*. Remember that. You must realize that God is essential and that His existence is the foundation of everything that is. First *realize* then *see*. If you cannot realize that the existence of God is essential for the universe to exist, how can we ever prove to such a blind person the existence of God when he doesn't have a clue about God's spiritual nature, looks and personality. You can never prove or convince an atheist about God or anything other that's spiritual because that atheist is spiritual blind.
This is like proving a color for someone who's blind.
Not really. Also, stop grouping atheists. A lot of us simply don't care about the existence of god. The world atheist population is around half a billion, so please stop thinking we're all the same.
Equating the POTUS and God is quite silly. The POTUS is not all-powerful nor all-knowing, so if he took time out of his day to speak to everyone who asked, that would take up all his time. However, the God of the Bible is supposed to exist everywhere and see everything, meaning that at any time and all times he can reveal himself to a human. Quite different from the President.
Do I deserve a personal visit from the Almighty? I think a better question is why wouldn't he grant me one? I am one of his creations and he is supposed to love me. If he does, he knows exactly what will make me a believer and he would make that happen so I don't burn in Hell eternally. To this day I have not received divine proof of any god's existence. I suppose your god wants me to burn.
It's comically tragic when people say "you will see God when you open your eyes to him." First off, when I opened my eyes to the world, he wasn't there. Secondly, I could tell you to open your eyes to Allah, Zeus, Poseidon, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or any number of other deities. If you want to see a god, you will. Plain and simple.
|6) Atheist: I only believe in what I can see and touch.|
Can you see, hear or touch your thoughts?
Can you see, hear or touch your intelligence?
Can you see, hear or touch your conciousness?
No, you can't. There are phenomenon in this world which cannot be perceived with our physical senses. That's just the way it is. Because you don't really believe you're thoughtless, without a concious and an IQ with a negative value? I thought so. That's all I have to say.
Anyone who says that isn't very smart, so don't trust that to be an atheist opinion. That being said, you can hear your thoughts and evaluate your intelligence and consciousness through your thoughts, which are created through what you feel of your senses. Although such things are immaterial, we can still feel them, just like we can feel emotions even though we can't touch them with our fingertips.
|7) God is spiritual and is proved with spiritual methods.|
God is outside of the capabilites of science because God is spiritual and eternal and is not bound by time and matter as we are. He created a world accessable for scientific methods, but He is beyond it. This is not a weakness for a belief in Creation, just a limitation within science. The definition of science is gathering information by observing and experimenting, and from this make logical conclusions. God created a world which we can define by science. But He Himself cannot be defined in the same way. We can't see Him in a microscope or a telescope because He is outside of His Creation and using material instruments to find Him is useless. God is not material, He's spiritual all through and God is therefor not a part of our scientific competency which only deals with the material part of reality.
Science is a method, formulated by man, to study the physical reality. There's absolutely NOTHING which says (more than your own pride) that there isn't anything beyond our physical reality.
MATERIAL phenomenon can only be proven by MATERIAL methods!
SPIRITUAL phenomenon can only be proven by SPIRITUAL methods!
God's existence can only be found in the spiritual dimension which means that all of the atheists attempts to find Him with material methods have all been in vain and will forever fail. God can be found in our hearts and He will never leave our hearts. But to see, hear, experience or feel Him in our hearts is only possible when your heart is completely pure and washed away from all your sins. You just need to humble yourself and be sincere, first then will the proof come to you. You cannot find proof by using a binocular or measuringtape
If he created a world for scientific methods, I wonder why he made everything look like it originated 13.75 billion years ago, this planet originated 4.56 billion years ago, life originated shortly after that and evolved for several billion years up until now. "Mysterious ways..."
Nothing says there can't be anything beyond our physical reality (as far as I'm aware), but that's not proof of your god, that just allows you to theorize that there might be one, and oh my heavens, will you quit proselytizing? Spouting the whole "he's in our hearts, wash away your sin" nonsense is appealing to emotion. It's completely devoid of fact and evidence; you're telling people to believe just to believe, not because it's something that makes sense to believe in. Once you've established that your god is effectively not proveable by scientific means, you've made your god an idea, and that's all.
|8) Logical proof of God. |
Perfection in the Creation:
How can it be that everything is so perfect? Everything is just so balanced and it's just simply amazing. The human body is so complex that scientists can't even explain half of how it works. Many interactions in nature are hard to explain without a "Creator". The whole Creation shows that there must be some form of logic behind it all. For many people, the perfection of our planet and the universe is proof enough.
Everything isn't perfect. That's just your opinion. There are lots of unbalanced things happening in the universe. Also, just because we can't explain some things doesn't mean that "God did it" is the right answer. The best answer is "we're don't know yet, but we're going to try to find out." If you settle with "God did it" on everything you don't know, you're going to miss out on a lot of amazing knowledge.
|The quest for the meaning of life:|
Humans always needs something to live for because it's not enough to just exist. For some reason we always seek some form of a meaning. It's like we lost our meaning of life and since then we try to find it again in a way or another. Someone can give us the meaning of life, this Someone has to be God. The need for a meaning of life is a clue or proof that God exists.
Again, just because God is a possible reason to keep living or have a purpose doesn't prove his existence. The requirement for a meaning to life is just basic human psychology, not some divine intervention. You'd need more proof of that. We are intelligent and social creatures, and because of that we require purposes to fulfill ourselves. All creatures also have purposes, but they are based on the instinct of reproduction and survival. Our intelligence allows us to form more complex purposes like obtaining occupations or traveling across our little world. None of these purposes have to depend on a god.
|The innver void:|
Sometimes we speak of an inner void in humans, something which is missing. There are surprisingly many people who feel like there's something missing. Why do we have that feeling of emptiness? This emptiness came when we decided not to have anything to do with God. When you seek God it's just like this emptiness is replaced with a meaning. It's the same for all believers in God and this is a clue or proof that God exists.
No, it's not. You're assuming we feel a void, and then you say "Because this X exists, God exists." There is absolutely no connection, and if you make that connection with your god, then anyone can make that connection with their god. For example: If we all feel a void, it must be a clue of Allah.
|The personal experience of God:|
You often hear believers say: "I've experienced God". So many people can witness about the presence of God that it simply cannot be made up. This presence of God is mutual for all believers and something like that would have been impossible if God was just a made up person. Faith is a conviction of things you do not see.
The whole universe just seems so perfectly calibrated to make life possible. For this to be the work of Mr. Coincidence a.k.a. Big Bang is something only dopey, foggy theorists believe in. Just take your eyes as an example. Each eye has 110 million pixels each. Only someone as brilliant as God can come up with something that genius!
Again, no. A bunch of people speaking from individual personal experience without evidence to back up their claims makes their claims useless. Many people believe they were abducted by aliens. Many believe they saw Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. None of us believe them because they have very little evidence or no evidence at all. The same applies to your god.
As for the eye thing, it's called evolution cowboy. Read "The Blind Watchmaker".
|9) Einstein and Strindberg. Wise men!|
"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous." Albert Einstein
"It's just as illogical to believe in the world but deny God, as it is to believe in the shoe but deny the shoemaker" August Strindberg
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." - Albert Einstein (one of many quotes from him about his religious beliefs. He was a freethinker and a deist).
And where does your quote from Strindberg get you? Should I trust his judgment because he's a famous dead dude or something? If you want to argue from authority (which is a fallacy), you should look up a study performed in 1996 that found that about 60% of Western scientists expressed doubt or disbelief in a god. You should pay attention more to their word than a 19th century playwright.
As for your end argument about how we all need salvation and we're in the end times, geez you really are eating your own nonsense. I almost don't know where to start. Everyone thinks they're living in the end times. Whenever anyone tries to prove it, they fit contemporary events into old prophecies. And it really bugs me that at the end of all this insulting drivel you'd threaten us with eternal damnation if we don't "get saved."
I don't mind religious people for the most part. I really don't. This, however? This is insulting to humanity.
Edited by sivispacem, 07 May 2012 - 10:36 PM.