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Atheists arguments against God

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#31

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:55 PM

It's not Gods existence that needs to be proven. It's his benevolence and why he deserves to be worshipped?
I would like someone to explain why he should be worshipped when he has routinely murdered his own creations and damned them for the way he designed them. I see no evidence - Biblical or otherwise - to suggest that I should respect him.

I have no issue with believing in a deity. But I find it incredible that anyone can love him, let alone beg and grovel at his feet.

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#32

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:55 PM

[/QUOTE]
But as you argue that it's no longer necessary as they are all social mores now, you're forgetting that those very morals and teachings that are now essentially latent in everyone wouldn't have existed without the religious teachings in the first place. [QUOTE]

I agree with 'trip'.
Religion got it's morals from us. It doesn't have a monopoly on 'good'.

If it took Moses coming down Mount Sinai with a stone rulebook telling us to not kill each other for us to stop, how did we make it that far?
Like I said earlier in the thread, homo sapiens are thought to be ATLEAST 100,000 years old.

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#33

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:07 PM Edited by GTAvanja, 05 May 2012 - 07:14 PM.

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:55)
It's not Gods existence that needs to be proven.

Yes, it is. You can't assume that god is evil without first proving that he exists. You can argue that God as a literary character is evil, but there are a lot of versions of that character.

@OP: Do you honestly think any of those arguments are valid? There isn't a single argument Christians have to offer that hasn't been repeatedly refuted. Internet is the place where religion comes to die. You can find some very interesting debates on YouTube if you're interested in having your hopes and dreams of god's existence crushed.

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#34

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:13 PM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:07)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:55)
It's not Gods existence that needs to be proven.

Yes, it is. You can't assume that god is evil without first proving that he exists. You can argue that God as a literary character is evil, but there are a lot of versions of that character.

But people will always believe, there's no evidence to suggest he doesn't exist so the prospect of changing their minds is slim.

But there is more than enough evidence to suggest that the God of Abraham is a cruel, vicious tyrant. And I would love to see any evidence of his supposed good nature that can wash away all the blood that's on his hands.

Or perhaps someone will just keep trying to spin his various forays into ethnic cleansing and genocide as proof of his 'infinite love'.

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#35

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:24 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:13)
But people will always believe, there's no evidence to suggest he doesn't exist so the prospect of changing their minds is slim.

There is no evidence that he exists either. That's because we can never truly KNOW anything. We can't KNOW that we exist. We can't KNOW that our universe exists. This could be just a computer simulation and we could all be just very advanced AIs. That doesn't mean that you should believe we're AIs simply because there is no evidence that we aren't. You don't live your life based on that assumption.

Every human being, consciously or not accepts certain assumptions:

1. The universe exists
2. You can learn something about reality
3. Models with predictive capability are more useful than models without predictive capability (that's how we got this science stuff figured out).

We still can't prove that any of this is real, therefore science may not be real either. But because we accepted the assumption that the universe exists and that we can learn something about reality, we can accept scientific discoveries because they work within those assumptions.

God doesn't.

God is a model without predictive capability. The entire concept of God is completely useless. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any of that God nonsense is real.

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#36

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:25 PM

Christians say you can't prove that something doesn't exist, so I believe in the gerflagenflopple.

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#37

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:27 PM

Well...

I havent managed to read through the whole topic yet... but Id just likde to address this point:
QUOTE
The thing is it isn't perfect, if it was perfect then why are people/animals born with defects? Why do species go extinct? Why are new species created? It's because we live in a constantly changing and adapting system, one which is defined by laws of nature and evolution. The system is far from perfect.

Ive always viewed this as a weak counter-argument because we tend to base perfection on our own perspective which could be, as far as we know (or dont), miles away from the perfection that God has in its mind. Heck, even people who live next to each other can have wildly different perspectives on perfection.

Also, I could argue that a system in which things change and adapt according to individual needs is an excellent example of perfection in itself.

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#38

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE (3niX @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:27)
Also, I could argue that a system in which things change and adapt according to individual needs is an excellent example of perfection in itself.

True. Well said. Next beer 'z on me.

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#39

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:24)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:13)
But people will always believe, there's no evidence to suggest he doesn't exist so the prospect of changing their minds is slim.

There is no evidence that he exists either. That's because we can never truly KNOW anything. We can't KNOW that we exist. We can't KNOW that our universe exists. This could be just a computer simulation and we could all be just very advanced AIs. That doesn't mean that you should believe we're AIs simply because there is no evidence that we aren't. You don't live your life based on that assumption.

Well without getting too Descartes on you, the only thing you can truly know is that you exist. You might be an AI, you might be a disembodied consciousness floating among the space dust of some magic nebula or you might be hooked up to a tank next door to Keanu Reeves, but by the very action of questioning it you know that you exist in some form. Everything your senses tell you migt be a lie, but you do exist somehow, somewhere.

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#40

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

QUOTE (3niX @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:27)
Well...

I havent managed to read through the whole topic yet... but Id just likde to address this point:
QUOTE
The thing is it isn't perfect, if it was perfect then why are people/animals born with defects? Why do species go extinct? Why are new species created? It's because we live in a constantly changing and adapting system, one which is defined by laws of nature and evolution. The system is far from perfect.

Ive always viewed this as a weak counter-argument because we tend to base perfection on our own perspective which could be, as far as we know (or dont), miles away from the perfection that God has in its mind. Heck, even people who live next to each other can have wildly different perspectives on perfection.

Also, I could argue that a system in which things change and adapt according to individual needs is an excellent example of perfection in itself.

Humans are just about the only perfect creature. You said it yourself, we make our environment evolve to meet our own needs. And I maintain that this trait means that we have effectively 'beaten' evolution. Evolution is a process by which species adapt to their surroundings. But when we can create and mould our surroundings, the evolutionary cycle is hilariously impotent.

So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

My challenge is not only to Gods benevolence but his record. What has he ever done that rivals any of the great human accomplishments?
I think we have taken Gods place.

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#41

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:40 PM

QUOTE (3niX @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:27)
Well...

I havent managed to read through the whole topic yet... but Id just likde to address this point:
QUOTE
The thing is it isn't perfect, if it was perfect then why are people/animals born with defects? Why do species go extinct? Why are new species created? It's because we live in a constantly changing and adapting system, one which is defined by laws of nature and evolution. The system is far from perfect.

Ive always viewed this as a weak counter-argument because we tend to base perfection on our own perspective which could be, as far as we know (or dont), miles away from the perfection that God has in its mind. Heck, even people who live next to each other can have wildly different perspectives on perfection.

Also, I could argue that a system in which things change and adapt according to individual needs is an excellent example of perfection in itself.

Perfection doesn't matter it's just a minor. What matters is the big concept. You, sir, find an invisible man in the sky to be realistic, contrary to many of the other things you may find to be ridiculous. A hairy ape who is able to walk through the woods on two feet? Prepostorous. Little green men coming down from spaceships and consorting with government? Hanus. Souls of the dead of whom are able to manipulate objects and communicate with the living? Now that's just damn crazy. But what about an invisible man in the sky playing master of puppets? Of course that's realistic, right? alien.gif

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#42

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:42 PM

QUOTE (Robinski @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 16:34)
I'm always hesitant to assign a label to my beliefs with regard to religion. The closest label is probably somewhere between atheist and agnostic, but neither sit quite right with me, especially on the internet where atheists are stereotypically arrogant and confrontational people who assert their assumed intellectual superiority because they have different beliefs than the religious.


...and I present my supporting evidence:

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:40)
Perfection doesn't matter it's just a minor. What matters is the big concept. You, sir, find an invisible man in the sky to be realistic, contrary to many of the other things you may find to be ridiculous. A hairy ape who is able to walk through the woods on two feet? Prepostorous. Little green men coming down from spaceships and consorting with government? Hanus. Souls of the dead of whom are able to manipulate objects and communicate with the living? Now that's just damn crazy. But what about an invisible man in the sky playing master of puppets? Of course that's realistic, right? alien.gif

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#43

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:39)
So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

Yes. And you can even take it a step further to the lower animal life forms too. Animals have learned to adapt to changes man has made to their world. Some have even evolved greater intelligence through the ages. More and more animals are being discovered as having learned handy tool skills that they never once displayed. Physical changes too are as a direct result of environment and the changes it has seen thanks to humans. The ability for man and animal to physically and mentally adapt is perfection.

Humanity and nature need to be commended. Sounds kind of Druid tounge.gif

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#44

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:54 PM

QUOTE (Vormek @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 05:55)
God is outside of His Creation. He is outside of our universe. God created time, space and matter and God is OUTSIDE of all that.

the rest of your entire thesis is invalidated by this very line.

how can we - as the human race - have an honest, sincere, and (most importantly) SANE discussion about the topic at hand when your side of the argument is that God = Superman?
that's bullsh*t.

that's an infallible, indefensible, unassailable, impenetrable, and utterly useless argument to present.
it get's us nowhere and it's not worth bringing to the table.

how can I move on to read any of your additional points?
your entire thesis is predicated on the notion that god can automatically do anything.

so what's the point?
as a position for you to take, it is simply unfair. it's also absurd. it has no place in the discussion. it does not belong next to rationale, logical, reasonable, skeptic-based, science-supported, and observable/objective positions taken by the opposing side.

the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who claim to know with CERTAINTY the things that NO LIVING PERSON CAN KNOW with any certainty. the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who claim to know that SOMETHING created EVERYTHING in spite of having NO evidence of ANY kind that would hold up in a court of law.

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#45

Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:55 PM

QUOTE (Robinski @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 11:34)
I'm always hesitant to assign a label to my beliefs with regard to religion. The closest label is probably somewhere between atheist and agnostic, but neither sit quite right with me, especially on the internet where atheists are stereotypically arrogant and confrontational people who assert their assumed intellectual superiority because they have different beliefs than the religious.

I feel the same way. I wouldn't say I believe in the existence of God, yet I also wouldn't say that I believe in the absence of God. I'd like to think I have a scientific point of view, but even that doesn't help tilt the scales either way. For example intelligent design. Sure, natural selection can account for much of evolution, but at the same time, there are parts of evolution that just don't seem like they could happen at random. Especially at the beginning of life on Earth. How do atoms arrange themselves at random to form a living cell that will multiply? That doesn't seem like chance to me, but at the same time most religions conflict with what we know from a scientific perspective. Honestly I don't think anyone has it right, but at the same time I can't explain things either so I'm in no position to dismiss someone else's point of view.

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#46

Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

skepticism is the only way to make any progress towards any real truth.

if you want to believe in anything, do so because YOU want to believe in it.
not because some false authority figure (Priest, Bishop, Imam, Reverend, Rabbi, Pope, etc) told you to.

and not because some ancient book written by bigoted, ignorant, paranoid old men told you to.

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#47

Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:05 PM

QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:53)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:39)
So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

Yes. And you can even take it a step further to the lower animal life forms too. Animals have learned to adapt to changes man has made to their world. Some have even evolved greater intelligence through the ages. More and more animals are being discovered as having learned handy tool skills that they never once displayed. Physical changes too are as a direct result of environment and the changes it has seen thanks to humans. The ability for man and animal to physically and mentally adapt is perfection.

Humanity and nature need to be commended. Sounds kind of Druid tounge.gif

Exactly! biggrin.gif
For instance, have you heard of the Wasp Bird? Upon being attacked by other predators it will mimic a wasp's call and draw a hive to its location to protect it. I was astounded upon hearing this, because it really is such a brilliant form of self defense.
And, as you said, there are countless other examples.

Yet religion would have us believe we are evil, that we are born evil.
The creation of religion was a beautiful thing, it really was. Think about all the stories and art which emerged from a handful of prophets and seers. Yet so much of the Abrahamic faith is rooted in a hatred for existence itself, a masochistic falsehood that would have us deny our own instincts and heap scorn on every single on of our accomplishments.

And it's not just the emasculation that is detestable, it's the persistent promise of a better world. How many people have neglected to see the beauty around them because their minds had been conditioned to believe there was something better?

I don't hate people who think that way, I just feel a sense of great sadness.

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#48

Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:06 PM

Well...

QUOTE
Perfection doesn't matter it's just a minor. What matters is the big concept. You, sir, find an invisible man in the sky to be realistic, contrary to many of the other things you may find to be ridiculous. A hairy ape who is able to walk through the woods on two feet? Prepostorous. Little green men coming down from spaceships and consorting with government? Hanus. Souls of the dead of whom are able to manipulate objects and communicate with the living? Now that's just damn crazy. But what about an invisible man in the sky playing master of puppets? Of course that's realistic, right? 

[Supreme]

The irony here is that I actually consider myself apatheist.

I just find such debates rather entertaining and you are a great example of why I find it entertaining.

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#49

Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:42 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 14:05)
Yet religion would have us believe we are evil, that we are born evil.
The creation of religion was a beautiful thing, it really was. Think about all the stories and art which emerged from a handful of prophets and seers. Yet so much of the Abrahamic faith is rooted in a hatred for existence itself, a masochistic falsehood that would have us deny our own instincts and heap scorn on every single on of our accomplishments.

And it's not just the emasculation that is detestable, it's the persistent promise of a better world. How many people have neglected to see the beauty around them because their minds had been conditioned to believe there was something better?

I don't hate people who think that way, I just feel a sense of great sadness.

Agreed. Typhus, I find your opinions on this subject quite poetic, and relevant. I wish there were more people who took such a licensed view on the natural world.

As for the people who are hesitant to display their personal views because of the overly-aggravated atheists, I see where you're coming from. There's a niche on the internet that seems to think they are more prestigious than the founding fathers simply for going against the religious grain. I love that people are willing to question the norm with fervor, but to just spit at anything else that's different from their cloud of atheists is a bit much.

Anyway, anyone else think William Lane Craig needs to shove it?

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#50

Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:56 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:05)
QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:53)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:39)
So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

Yes. And you can even take it a step further to the lower animal life forms too. Animals have learned to adapt to changes man has made to their world. Some have even evolved greater intelligence through the ages. More and more animals are being discovered as having learned handy tool skills that they never once displayed. Physical changes too are as a direct result of environment and the changes it has seen thanks to humans. The ability for man and animal to physically and mentally adapt is perfection.

Humanity and nature need to be commended. Sounds kind of Druid tounge.gif

Exactly! biggrin.gif
For instance, have you heard of the Wasp Bird? Upon being attacked by other predators it will mimic a wasp's call and draw a hive to its location to protect it. I was astounded upon hearing this, because it really is such a brilliant form of self defense.
And, as you said, there are countless other examples.

Yet religion would have us believe we are evil, that we are born evil.
The creation of religion was a beautiful thing, it really was. Think about all the stories and art which emerged from a handful of prophets and seers. Yet so much of the Abrahamic faith is rooted in a hatred for existence itself, a masochistic falsehood that would have us deny our own instincts and heap scorn on every single on of our accomplishments.

And it's not just the emasculation that is detestable, it's the persistent promise of a better world. How many people have neglected to see the beauty around them because their minds had been conditioned to believe there was something better?

I don't hate people who think that way, I just feel a sense of great sadness.

What erupted from this "beauty" was a handful of crusades, race wars, and genocides. suicidal.gif .

[Supreme]

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#51

Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:10 PM

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:56)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:05)
QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:53)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:39)
So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

Yes. And you can even take it a step further to the lower animal life forms too. Animals have learned to adapt to changes man has made to their world. Some have even evolved greater intelligence through the ages. More and more animals are being discovered as having learned handy tool skills that they never once displayed. Physical changes too are as a direct result of environment and the changes it has seen thanks to humans. The ability for man and animal to physically and mentally adapt is perfection.

Humanity and nature need to be commended. Sounds kind of Druid tounge.gif

Exactly! biggrin.gif
For instance, have you heard of the Wasp Bird? Upon being attacked by other predators it will mimic a wasp's call and draw a hive to its location to protect it. I was astounded upon hearing this, because it really is such a brilliant form of self defense.
And, as you said, there are countless other examples.

Yet religion would have us believe we are evil, that we are born evil.
The creation of religion was a beautiful thing, it really was. Think about all the stories and art which emerged from a handful of prophets and seers. Yet so much of the Abrahamic faith is rooted in a hatred for existence itself, a masochistic falsehood that would have us deny our own instincts and heap scorn on every single on of our accomplishments.

And it's not just the emasculation that is detestable, it's the persistent promise of a better world. How many people have neglected to see the beauty around them because their minds had been conditioned to believe there was something better?

I don't hate people who think that way, I just feel a sense of great sadness.

What erupted from this "beauty" was a handful of crusades, race wars, and genocides. suicidal.gif .

[Supreme]

Come, come, a chaotic, brutal world is preferable to a safe, boring one.
Where there is chaos and brutality you can be sure to find art and culture. All beauty seems to spring from the grotesque, I've always believed that and see many examples proving me right.

Of what significance are the genocides and crusades? Simply boring people slaughtering thousands upon thousands of other boring people. But their actions inspire, their cruelty creates a tinderbox of creativity and just look at what great minds can conceive when they have the worst of humanity to inspire them.

You see, individual lives don't matter, thousands of deaths don't matter, humans die, it's inevitable. And considering it's inevitable, it feels foolish to quibble about whether that death came at the point of a sword or in the haze of an explosion. Art, however, is eternal.

And I'd rather live in a world with magnificent art and diverse cultures than a big, grey sludge. And if the nexus of that art and culture is misery and death, so be it.

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#52

Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:23 PM Edited by 3niX, 05 May 2012 - 09:33 PM.

Well...

QUOTE
What erupted from this "beauty" was a handful of crusades, race wars, and genocides. .

[Supreme]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Is humanity beautiful?
Is the universe beautiful despite all the violence in it?

EDIT:

Lets put it this way...

The act of killing is macabre and wasteful but yet we tend to glorify the art of killing (people enjoy watching assassin movies, telling romantic/epic tales of war heroes, entertaining themselves by playing violent games etc.). We find such things cool... yet we are aware of the ugly purpose of it all.

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#53

Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:10)
QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:56)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:05)
QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:53)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:39)
So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

Yes. And you can even take it a step further to the lower animal life forms too. Animals have learned to adapt to changes man has made to their world. Some have even evolved greater intelligence through the ages. More and more animals are being discovered as having learned handy tool skills that they never once displayed. Physical changes too are as a direct result of environment and the changes it has seen thanks to humans. The ability for man and animal to physically and mentally adapt is perfection.

Humanity and nature need to be commended. Sounds kind of Druid tounge.gif

Exactly! biggrin.gif
For instance, have you heard of the Wasp Bird? Upon being attacked by other predators it will mimic a wasp's call and draw a hive to its location to protect it. I was astounded upon hearing this, because it really is such a brilliant form of self defense.
And, as you said, there are countless other examples.

Yet religion would have us believe we are evil, that we are born evil.
The creation of religion was a beautiful thing, it really was. Think about all the stories and art which emerged from a handful of prophets and seers. Yet so much of the Abrahamic faith is rooted in a hatred for existence itself, a masochistic falsehood that would have us deny our own instincts and heap scorn on every single on of our accomplishments.

And it's not just the emasculation that is detestable, it's the persistent promise of a better world. How many people have neglected to see the beauty around them because their minds had been conditioned to believe there was something better?

I don't hate people who think that way, I just feel a sense of great sadness.

What erupted from this "beauty" was a handful of crusades, race wars, and genocides. suicidal.gif .

[Supreme]

Come, come, a chaotic, brutal world is preferable to a safe, boring one.
Where there is chaos and brutality you can be sure to find art and culture. All beauty seems to spring from the grotesque, I've always believed that and see many examples proving me right.

Of what significance are the genocides and crusades? Simply boring people slaughtering thousands upon thousands of other boring people. But their actions inspire, their cruelty creates a tinderbox of creativity and just look at what great minds can conceive when they have the worst of humanity to inspire them.

You see, individual lives don't matter, thousands of deaths don't matter, humans die, it's inevitable. And considering it's inevitable, it feels foolish to quibble about whether that death came at the point of a sword or in the haze of an explosion. Art, however, is eternal.

And I'd rather live in a world with magnificent art and diverse cultures than a big, grey sludge. And if the nexus of that art and culture is misery and death, so be it.

I really don't see how you can find a body being put in a display box atrocious and people being gassed and stuck in furnaces entertaining. You must be an enormous hypocrite.

[Supreme]

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#54

Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:25)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:10)
QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:56)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:05)
QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:53)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:39)
So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

Yes. And you can even take it a step further to the lower animal life forms too. Animals have learned to adapt to changes man has made to their world. Some have even evolved greater intelligence through the ages. More and more animals are being discovered as having learned handy tool skills that they never once displayed. Physical changes too are as a direct result of environment and the changes it has seen thanks to humans. The ability for man and animal to physically and mentally adapt is perfection.

Humanity and nature need to be commended. Sounds kind of Druid tounge.gif

Exactly! biggrin.gif
For instance, have you heard of the Wasp Bird? Upon being attacked by other predators it will mimic a wasp's call and draw a hive to its location to protect it. I was astounded upon hearing this, because it really is such a brilliant form of self defense.
And, as you said, there are countless other examples.

Yet religion would have us believe we are evil, that we are born evil.
The creation of religion was a beautiful thing, it really was. Think about all the stories and art which emerged from a handful of prophets and seers. Yet so much of the Abrahamic faith is rooted in a hatred for existence itself, a masochistic falsehood that would have us deny our own instincts and heap scorn on every single on of our accomplishments.

And it's not just the emasculation that is detestable, it's the persistent promise of a better world. How many people have neglected to see the beauty around them because their minds had been conditioned to believe there was something better?

I don't hate people who think that way, I just feel a sense of great sadness.

What erupted from this "beauty" was a handful of crusades, race wars, and genocides. suicidal.gif .

[Supreme]

Come, come, a chaotic, brutal world is preferable to a safe, boring one.
Where there is chaos and brutality you can be sure to find art and culture. All beauty seems to spring from the grotesque, I've always believed that and see many examples proving me right.

Of what significance are the genocides and crusades? Simply boring people slaughtering thousands upon thousands of other boring people. But their actions inspire, their cruelty creates a tinderbox of creativity and just look at what great minds can conceive when they have the worst of humanity to inspire them.

You see, individual lives don't matter, thousands of deaths don't matter, humans die, it's inevitable. And considering it's inevitable, it feels foolish to quibble about whether that death came at the point of a sword or in the haze of an explosion. Art, however, is eternal.

And I'd rather live in a world with magnificent art and diverse cultures than a big, grey sludge. And if the nexus of that art and culture is misery and death, so be it.

I really don't see how you can find a body being put in a display box atrocious and people being gassed and stuck in furnaces entertaining. You must be an enormous hypocrite.

[Supreme]

I don't find genocide entertaining. I just acknowledge the capacity of great evil to create great beauty.

Look at Guernica, one of Picasso's most lauded works. Yet it was inspired by a horrific Nazi bombing raid during the Spanish Civil War.
From those mangled corpses and slaughtered children, came a work of genius that future generations can mull over and appreciate for generations to come.

The price of that art doesn't matter, because people move on, people forget. And those who died to inspire the work will be forgotten long before the painting is.

Likewise, the myths and stories in the Bible have endured far past the grieving wails of thousands of orphans and widows.

Do you see my point?

HydraulicWaRiOr
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#55

Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:32)
QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:25)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:10)
QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:56)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 20:05)
QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 19:53)
QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 15:39)
So, here's my point. Isn't it more logical to engage in a worship of humanity than the worship of God? Humans, due to their own work, have cured diseases and even explored the stars themselves.
Indeed, our wits allow us to perform 'miracles' on an almost daily basis. Explainable, logical miracles, but miracles all the same.

Yes. And you can even take it a step further to the lower animal life forms too. Animals have learned to adapt to changes man has made to their world. Some have even evolved greater intelligence through the ages. More and more animals are being discovered as having learned handy tool skills that they never once displayed. Physical changes too are as a direct result of environment and the changes it has seen thanks to humans. The ability for man and animal to physically and mentally adapt is perfection.

Humanity and nature need to be commended. Sounds kind of Druid tounge.gif

Exactly! biggrin.gif
For instance, have you heard of the Wasp Bird? Upon being attacked by other predators it will mimic a wasp's call and draw a hive to its location to protect it. I was astounded upon hearing this, because it really is such a brilliant form of self defense.
And, as you said, there are countless other examples.

Yet religion would have us believe we are evil, that we are born evil.
The creation of religion was a beautiful thing, it really was. Think about all the stories and art which emerged from a handful of prophets and seers. Yet so much of the Abrahamic faith is rooted in a hatred for existence itself, a masochistic falsehood that would have us deny our own instincts and heap scorn on every single on of our accomplishments.

And it's not just the emasculation that is detestable, it's the persistent promise of a better world. How many people have neglected to see the beauty around them because their minds had been conditioned to believe there was something better?

I don't hate people who think that way, I just feel a sense of great sadness.

What erupted from this "beauty" was a handful of crusades, race wars, and genocides. suicidal.gif .

[Supreme]

Come, come, a chaotic, brutal world is preferable to a safe, boring one.
Where there is chaos and brutality you can be sure to find art and culture. All beauty seems to spring from the grotesque, I've always believed that and see many examples proving me right.

Of what significance are the genocides and crusades? Simply boring people slaughtering thousands upon thousands of other boring people. But their actions inspire, their cruelty creates a tinderbox of creativity and just look at what great minds can conceive when they have the worst of humanity to inspire them.

You see, individual lives don't matter, thousands of deaths don't matter, humans die, it's inevitable. And considering it's inevitable, it feels foolish to quibble about whether that death came at the point of a sword or in the haze of an explosion. Art, however, is eternal.

And I'd rather live in a world with magnificent art and diverse cultures than a big, grey sludge. And if the nexus of that art and culture is misery and death, so be it.

I really don't see how you can find a body being put in a display box atrocious and people being gassed and stuck in furnaces entertaining. You must be an enormous hypocrite.

[Supreme]

I don't find genocide entertaining. I just acknowledge the capacity of great evil to create great beauty.

Look at Guernica, one of Picasso's most lauded works. Yet it was inspired by a horrific Nazi bombing raid during the Spanish Civil War.
From those mangled corpses and slaughtered children, came a work of genius that future generations can mull over and appreciate for generations to come.

The price of that art doesn't matter, because people move on, people forget. And those who died to inspire the work will be forgotten long before the painting is.

Likewise, the myths and stories in the Bible have endured far past the grieving wails of thousands of orphans and widows.

Do you see my point?

Not when much of the bible inspires hate and prejudice.

I'm fine with war and all of that. Political issues are fun. I love the WWII-era Soviet Union. It isn't very fun having someones beliefs shoved up your asshole.

[Supreme]

3niX
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#56

Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:50 PM

Well...

QUOTE
Not when much of the bible inspires hate and prejudice.

I'm fine with war and all of that. Political issues are fun. I love the WWII-era Soviet Union. It isn't very fun having someones beliefs shoved up your asshole.

[Supreme]

But Soviet Union was one of the worst forms of dictatorship in Eurasia. How can you love such a thing? Dont you find just a tiny bit of irony in it...

You dont like when people shove beliefs down on you but thats exactly what the soviet leadership did... they tried banning any form of religion (unsuccessfully I might add) because of their own beliefs.

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#57

Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:44)
Not when much of the bible inspires hate and prejudice.[Supreme]

A hate and prejudice which has helped countless cultures and civilisations grow and gain their own sense of identity. The Bible has indeed had a mostly negative effect on the world, but again, consider how boring history would be without the Inquisition or the Spanish conquest of the Americas.
History is a rich tapestry and whether we like it or not, the bloodshed and intolerance of the past helped create what you see around you today.
But considering that bloodshed and intolerance are part of our animal nature, I don't see the logic in lamenting it.

HydraulicWaRiOr
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#58

Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:57)
QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 21:44)
Not when much of the bible inspires hate and prejudice.[Supreme]

A hate and prejudice which has helped countless cultures and civilisations grow and gain their own sense of identity. The Bible has indeed had a mostly negative effect on the world, but again, consider how boring history would be without the Inquisition or the Spanish conquest of the Americas.
History is a rich tapestry and whether we like it or not, the bloodshed and intolerance of the past helped create what you see around you today.
But considering that bloodshed and intolerance are part of our animal nature, I don't see the logic in lamenting it.

The Soviet Union has caused much controversy themselves, without the help of the bible. You don't need a book to start a war. All you need is something that people want.

@3niX That's prepostorous. Your statement is most obviously inspired by the propaganda of the capitalists. The Soviet Union was not a dictatorship. The process of Russification has led people to believe that. And they only banned the Russian Orthodox Church and other forms of Christianity. The Bolsheviks mostly consisted of Jewish representatives, who may have indeed turned Athiest, but had a large amount of support from the Jewish community. Lenin and Stalin looked down on pogroms and other anti-semitic acts, so no, the Soviet Union was not anti-religious. Christianity is merely an inspirer of Monarchy and of whom Stalin considered an enemy of Communism. I hate Christianity anyways, who cares. (Other than Christianity)

[Supreme]

Irviding
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#59

Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:28 PM

QUOTE

Not true. Religion or not, I'm pretty sure man would have figured out right and wrong somehow. There could have been some charismatic caveman that stood atop a bolder who said "Ya know what guys...it's not fair to steal the food from your neighbor after he spent all day and all of his energy to spear that saber tooth tiger. Maybe if you ask him nicely he may be kind enough to spare a bite. How would you feel if you spent all day and he stole your tiger meat? - think about it guys."

Also those religious teachings that laid ground to our base morals today was pretty nasty and laden with fear. People don't like fear and the further you push down the seed, the longer it will last.


I disagree completely. Those morals were taught by religion and, while forced upon people, eventually become a regular part of life. What you are assuming is totally short-sighted, and frankly, ridiculous. "We would've had them anyway" is worse than a strawman argument. Keep in mind though I agree with most of your sentiment otherwise.

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#60

Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:06 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, May 6 2012, 00:28)
I disagree completely. Those morals were taught by religion and, while forced upon people, eventually become a regular part of life. What you are assuming is totally short-sighted, and frankly, ridiculous. "We would've had them anyway" is worse than a strawman argument. Keep in mind though I agree with most of your sentiment otherwise.

So you are saying that religion predates ethics? If that's the case, then why did early man not annihilate itself? I mean, most early religions were polytheistic, and monotheism only really began to take effect with Judaism (and that's only arguably monotheistic), so I think you dramatically overstate the importance of "God" as opposed to the general principal of "higher beings". Personally, I feel that the opposite of your suggestion is true. Logically, what is "moral" or "ethical" can be entirely explained in terms of protecting a species and avoiding diluting the gene pool. It's the same principle that stop animal species from annihilating themselves for no apparent reason, and I feel that to insinuate that somehow religion is responsible for the creation of ethics entirely contracts our understanding of instinct. I mean, if animals defend the purity and depth of the gene pool without the influence of a higher being, then why do humans need another "higher" power to do exactly the same?




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