Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

Atheists arguments against God

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
310 replies to this topic
sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Empty Pleasures and Desperate Measures since 1994

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom
  • Contribution Award [D&D, General Chat]
    Most Knowledgeable [Vehicles] 2013
    Best Debater 2013, 2012, 2011

#271

Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:57 PM

Are you seriously arguing that because a person called Jesus existed, and because miracles were attributed to him, then he must be the literal son of god? If so, words escape me. How cam a human being with such a poor understanding of history, causality and logic yet such delusions of grandeur regarding his own knowledge possibly exist in anything other than apocalyptic fiction?

I trust you don't need to baby you through an explanations of why "a book says he is the son of god, so god must exist" is a logical fallacy.

GrandMaster Smith
  • GrandMaster Smith

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Apr 2006
  • None

#272

Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Friday, Feb 1 2013, 06:57)
Are you seriously arguing that because a person called Jesus existed, and because miracles were attributed to him, then he must be the literal son of god? If so, words escape me.


No, according to Christianity all people are children of God. Jesus was God in the flesh (according to majority of Christian denominations).

His existence was prophesied 400 years before hand.


The events and miracles prophesied were witnessed by hundreds of people.


I guess historical evidence is ludicrous to you, eh? Julius Caesar must've never existed as well because only historical document documents his existence..


Explain to me how else you could explain the miracles performed by him and the witnesses who watched it happen first hand, all by the same man who's birth and death and countless other details were foretold hundreds of years before, let alone the explosion of the church of Christ after his resurrection.

Melchior
  • Melchior

    The lights are so bright, but they never blind me

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • China

#273

Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:26 PM

GMS, you do realise that most biblical works, and most accounts of his life, were produced long after his death? Hundreds of years after his death, in fact. The reason the church "exploded" after these works became well known was because of powerful Christians in the Roman Empire. The missionaries thus had a lot of resources to aid them in spreading Christianity.

Christianity interests me greatly (I suppose I even have a biblical username) yet I'm not aware that there are any credible first hand accounts of the life of Christ that are unanimously accepted by historians and explicitly mention miracles.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Empty Pleasures and Desperate Measures since 1994

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom
  • Contribution Award [D&D, General Chat]
    Most Knowledgeable [Vehicles] 2013
    Best Debater 2013, 2012, 2011

#274

Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:44 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Friday, Feb 1 2013, 16:26)
GMS, you do realise that most biblical works, and most accounts of his life, were produced long after his death? Hundreds of years after his death, in fact. The reason the church "exploded" after these works became well known was because of powerful Christians in the Roman Empire. The missionaries thus had a lot of resources to aid them in spreading Christianity.

Christianity interests me greatly (I suppose I even have a biblical username) yet I'm not aware that there are any credible first hand accounts of the life of Christ that are unanimously accepted by historians and explicitly mention miracles.

Eloquently put. This was what I was getting at with my earlier "who are you, that don't know your history" vibe. I was just too flabbergasted by the fact he insinuated that the very existence of a person called Jesus that therefore God must exist to form proper sentences.

GrandMaster Smith
  • GrandMaster Smith

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Apr 2006
  • None

#275

Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:33 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Friday, Feb 1 2013, 07:26)
GMS, you do realise that most biblical works, and most accounts of his life, were produced long after his death? Hundreds of years after his death, in fact.


I'm curious as to where you get your 'facts'...



QUOTE
Matthew was a hated publican tax collector who wrote Matthew in about A.D. 37. The Gospel according to St Mark, or the book of Mark was written by
Mark, or John Mark,who was the nephew of Barnabus . His mother was named Mary. He wrote Mark in about A.D. 57-63. His writings cover a period of about seven years. Luke, the physician, was a Jew of Antioch as was Paul the Apostle: Luke wrote the book of Luke AD 63-68. This book covers a period of about 39 years. St John's Gospel was written by the Apostle John around A.D. 85-90. St. John covers about seven years. The Acts of the Apostles were written by Luke. He continues the book of Luke, refers to it.
He tells about Paul's ministry in Rome around A.D. 65. Acts covers a period of about 32 years.




QUOTE (Melchior @ Friday, Feb 1 2013, 07:26)
The reason the church "exploded" after these works became well known was because of powerful Christians in the Roman Empire. The missionaries thus had a lot of resources to aid them in spreading Christianity.



The traditional view of when the Christian Church actually started was the Day of Pentecost (50 days after the Passover during which Jesus was crucified). It was at this time that Peter gave his great sermon, and in response, "about 3,000 souls were added to them [the apostles]" (Acts 2:41). This group of believers was first called "the church" in Acts 2:47, as "God added to the church daily those who were being saved."


It wasn't until the Roman Empire overtook Christianity that it started to become shady.


QUOTE (Melchior @ Friday, Feb 1 2013, 07:26)
Christianity interests me greatly (I suppose I even have a biblical username) yet I'm not aware that there are any credible first hand accounts of the life of Christ that are unanimously accepted by historians and explicitly mention miracles.


Have you ever actually read into the bible? What you're saying your unaware of is written by the apostles..

Melchior
  • Melchior

    The lights are so bright, but they never blind me

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • China

#276

Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:46 PM

waaaaah? The first book was the book of Mark and it was written at least a few decades after Jesus died...

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Empty Pleasures and Desperate Measures since 1994

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom
  • Contribution Award [D&D, General Chat]
    Most Knowledgeable [Vehicles] 2013
    Best Debater 2013, 2012, 2011

#277

Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:06 PM

The bible as we know it wasn't codified in a form we'd recognise until the 17th century. Some of the New Testament is believed to preface Jesus by around 300 years. Much of it was written circa 200AD, plus there are various non-canon biblical texts between 200AD and 500AD. How similar these early stories are to the later and better known versions of the bible is largely unknown, as no complete text and very few fragments are known to exist.

The New Testament in any form wasn't codified until almost 400AD.

GrandMaster Smith
  • GrandMaster Smith

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Apr 2006
  • None

#278

Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:10 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Friday, Feb 1 2013, 13:06)
The bible as we know it wasn't codified in a form we'd recognise until the 17th century

The New Testament in any form wasn't codified until almost 400AD.

Of course, the new testament is a compilation of many different books written separate from one another. It wasn't till much later it was all put into the one book we know as the new testament today.

The majority of individual books were written relatively close to Jesus' death by first hand witnesses. There's alot of valuable information in these books, I would only imagine the authors would take their time writing it.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Empty Pleasures and Desperate Measures since 1994

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom
  • Contribution Award [D&D, General Chat]
    Most Knowledgeable [Vehicles] 2013
    Best Debater 2013, 2012, 2011

#279

Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:23 PM

Many of the books were reported to have been written that early, but never actually appear in any biblical form until 200 years later. There's absolutely no evidence in many cases they were written when they are actually claimed to have been. This is the primary reason why the bible is so fragmented and contradictory.

El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "Not Santa's balls!"

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars

#280

Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:38 AM Edited by El_Diablo, 02 February 2013 - 10:43 AM.

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Friday, Feb 1 2013, 14:10)
The majority of individual books were written relatively close to Jesus' death by first hand witnesses.

not true.

every book in the New Testament that refers to Jesus' (supposed) teachings and miracles wasn't written until at least 100 years after his (supposed) life and death.
there are no first-hand accounts of Christ. there's not even 2nd-hand accounts.

everything written about Christ in the Bible was not authored until long after his (supposed) existence.
this is basically what Sivis just tried to explain above me.

GrandMaster Smith
  • GrandMaster Smith

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Apr 2006
  • None

#281

Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:10 AM

QUOTE (El_Diablo)
every book in the New Testament that refers to Jesus' (supposed) teachings and miracles wasn't written until at least 100 years after his (supposed) life and death.
there are no first-hand accounts of Christ. there's not even 2nd-hand accounts.



QUOTE (Melchior)

GMS, you do realise that most biblical works, and most accounts of his life, were produced long after his death? Hundreds of years after his death, in fact.




Where in the world are you guy's getting your 'facts??'..




Jesus died around 30 AD-

Gospel of Mark - AD 50 to 55

Gospel of Matthew - AD 50-55

Gospel of Luke - AD 61 at Caesarea. during 2 years Paul was in prison in Caesarea

Gospel of John - estimated as early as AD 69 to as late as AD 90

Book of Acts AD 63

Galatian - written in the summer of AD 50 from Antioch

1 Thessalonians - Written in Nov. or Dec AD 51 from Corinth

2 Thessalonians - Written within 3 months later, AD 52 from Corinth

1 Corinthians - written in spring AD 57 from Ephsus

2 Corinthians - Written in summer of AD 58 from Philippi

Romans - written in winter of AD 58 from Corinth

Galatian - written in the summer of AD 50 from Antioch

1 Thessalonians - Written in Nov. or Dec AD 51 from Corinth

2 Thessalonians - Written within 3 months later, AD 52 from Corinth

1 Corinthians - written in spring AD 57 from Ephsus

2 Corinthians - Written in summer of AD 58 from Philippi

Romans - written in winter of AD 58 from Corinth

Letters written after the close of Acts.

Colossians - written from Rome AD 63

Ephesians - written from Rome AD 63

Philemon - written from Rome AD 63

Philippians - written from Rome AD 63

1 Timothy - Timothy is in Ephesus. Paul is in Macedonia. Written late AD 65

Titus - written to Titus in Crete, from Nicopolis, Ad 65

2 Timothy - Written from Rome to Timothy in Ephesus, Winter AD 67



"There are 10 known non-christian writers who mention Jesus within 150 years of his life. By contrast, over the same 150 years, there are nine non-christian sources who mention Tiberius Caesar, the Roman EMPEROR at the time of Jesus. So discounting all the Christian sources, Jesus is actually mentioned by one more source than the Roman emperor. If you include the Christian sources, authors mentioning Jesus outnumber those mentioning Tiberius 43 to 10."



Are you guys just deliberately lying or just parroting what lies you've heard?..

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Empty Pleasures and Desperate Measures since 1994

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom
  • Contribution Award [D&D, General Chat]
    Most Knowledgeable [Vehicles] 2013
    Best Debater 2013, 2012, 2011

#282

Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:24 PM Edited by sivispacem, 02 February 2013 - 12:26 PM.

Where are you getting those dates from, out of interest? It's pretty common knowledge that the dates at which the individual books are said to have been written aren't exactly definitive, given that they weren't codified in a united work until in some cases 200 years later. That isn't to say that they're all out of whack, but when you are discussing works that were spread by word of mouth or in individual isolation before they were canonised, it becomes difficult to actually place when they were written, and certainly nigh-on impossible to date them in a recognisable form prior to their canonisation.

Melchior
  • Melchior

    The lights are so bright, but they never blind me

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • China

#283

Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:13 PM

He seems to believe that because the books of the bible were written by individuals called Luke and Matthew etc. and because these individuals claimed to have been followers of Jesus during his life, that the bible must have been written by followers of Jesus. Of course, this doesn't explain why, if the writers of the canonical gospels were all mates and ate diner with Jesus, the bible wasn't turned into a single codified work until centuries years later, and why the works were in separate languages.

Essentially, GMS, your claim is that the canonical gospels, in their entirety, were written at separate points in time, at separate locations, in separate languages by individuals who all knew each other and had the same goal, however, the church only managed to acquire them and turn them into a single book in one language centuries later. And this, in your mind, is indisputable historical evidence that Jesus was God in the Flesh and constitutes a divine creator revealing himself to mankind.

El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "Not Santa's balls!"

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars

#284

Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Saturday, Feb 2 2013, 04:10)
Where in the world are you guy's getting your 'facts??'

Are you guys just deliberately lying or just parroting what lies you've heard?..

funny.
I could ask you the same thing.

you've obviously never taken a college-level course (or read a book) on comparative religious studies or the history of modern religions.
it is very common knowledge that the gospels referring to Christ were not authored until hundreds of years after he (supposedly) lived. most of the gospels referring to Christ are in different languages, contradict their own stories about Jesus, and were not arranged to be canonical until another few hundred years after THEY were written.

the fact that you believe this is evidence for Christ or Christianity is laughable.
it's evidence for how gullible you are, if anything.

GrandMaster Smith
  • GrandMaster Smith

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Apr 2006
  • None

#285

Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:56 PM

Let me get this straight, are you guys denying the existence of Jesus of Nazareth? Or that he performed miracles?


Do you guys believe Alexander the Great ever existed? The earliest biography of him wasn't written until 400 years after his death. Books of the New Testament were written within a few decades of Jesus' death and resurrection.



"it is very common knowledge that the gospels referring to Christ were not authored until hundreds of years after he (supposedly) lived."

Please cite this. I'm not sure there's even one serious historian who doubts Jesus's existence. Not to mention there are about 10 non-Christian's historians who mentioned Jesus within 150 years of his death. Something along the lines of 90% of the population back then were completely illiterate.



Melchior
  • Melchior

    The lights are so bright, but they never blind me

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • China

#286

Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:31 PM

Nobody is denying the existence of Jesus- we're denying that there are any first hand accounts of his life.

El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "Not Santa's balls!"

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars

#287

Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Saturday, Feb 2 2013, 15:56)
Please cite this.

why?
you haven't cited a single piece of your own 'information' but you demand it from those who disagree with you?

you're the one in the minority here.
you're the guy who believes in a dead Jewish zombie savior.

Deffpony
  • Deffpony

    Stay Golden Ponyboy

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2007
  • None

#288

Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

My biggest problem with religious persons is their blatant ignorance to evolution. Its a fact that species evolve, how is this debatable

Icarus
  • Icarus

    [C9] Orthonormal

  • The Connection
  • Joined: 01 Sep 2002
  • None

#289

Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:43 PM

QUOTE (deffpony @ Monday, Mar 4 2013, 09:24)
My biggest problem with religious persons is their blatant ignorance to evolution. Its a fact that species evolve, how is this debatable

That's because most of them don't even understand evolution to begin with.

I was playing RDR with a couple regulars I play with and we got onto the topic of religion and evolution and the guy went on about how evolution was wrong and that if we evolved from apes and monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? They should have evolved according to him.

I facepalmed pretty hard.

Deffpony
  • Deffpony

    Stay Golden Ponyboy

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2007
  • None

#290

Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

Yea a good friend of mine gave me the same argument. It's like saying if a poodle evolves from a wolf why are there still wolves.

El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "Not Santa's balls!"

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars

#291

Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:46 PM

QUOTE (deffpony @ Monday, Mar 4 2013, 09:24)
My biggest problem with religious persons is their blatant ignorance

you can stop right there lol.gif
it's not even ignorance about specific topics like evolution. it's actually more disturbing than that.

devoutly religious people have the tools to see through religious nonsense.
they are perfectly well equipped enough to realize that religion is bullsh*t. they practice this logic all the time. why are Christian's Christian? why are Muslim's Muslim? why are Jew's Jewish? why are they not something else?

Christians are Christians because they're not Muslim or Jewish.
Muslims are Muslims because they're not Christian or Jewish.
Jews are Jewish because they're not Christian or Muslim.

the same goes for any faith in any direction.

they're all atheists in regards to every other religion than their own.
they can look at any other religion and realize how silly it sounds. they look at other religious books and realize that these books have no power because they were written by ordinary, mortal men. this is the same logic that allows people like you or I to easily become an atheist. these are atheist rationales.

the religious person knows how to be an atheist and isn't afraid to behave like one in relation to 99% OF ALL OTHER RELIGIONS.
but they stop when applying this same logic to their own personal faith. they just stop short and say that everything is bullsh*t... unless it's their bullsh*t... in which case it's magically not bullsh*t all of a sudden.

it's amazing really.
the religious person has to perform incredible feats of mental gymnastics on a daily basis. in order to be faithful, they have to be intelligent enough to deny the existence of false prophets based on poor evidence while stupid enough to believe in their own prophet based on the same poor evidence.

amazing.
scary and disturbing, but amazing.

IM_YOUR_GOD
  • IM_YOUR_GOD

    Christian Zionist Rank 9

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 23 May 2012

#292

Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:21 AM

Yeah but you call yourself Devil though. Lol.
Ironic.

El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "Not Santa's balls!"

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars

#293

Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:41 AM

lol... it's just a cool sounding name tounge2.gif

I also have a movie poster of Godzilla (the original Japanese flick) on my wall.
it doesn't mean I believe in Godzilla.

IM_YOUR_GOD
  • IM_YOUR_GOD

    Christian Zionist Rank 9

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 23 May 2012

#294

Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:54 AM Edited by IM_YOUR_GOD, 05 March 2013 - 01:54 PM.

Wait, Godzilla not real?

-Yeah, what the hell is this? Please keep the spam posts out of D&D-

How does this classifies as spam? In actuality your spamming my post when a simple PM would of suffice.
I could of see how this was off topic, but spam it is surly not.


stu
  • stu

    Ya filthy animal.

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom
  • Funniest Member 2013
    Funniest Member 2012

#295

Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:25 PM

Of course it's spam. D&D isn't general chat, you're supposed to try and stick to the debate and not go off on a tangent. There's nothing wrong with doing that in gen chat, but this is D&D, you know, debate and discussion. It's supposed to be a bit more serious and thought out. If you had a little one liner joke, then contributed to the actual argument in a meaningful manner, you might be OK. But 3 consecutive posts of "Lolz, godzilla" is pushing it a bit. Carm on guyyyssssss, it's not hard.

Regarding evolution, I find it interesting that a lot of religious people seem to have actually "agreed" with it. Obviously a belief in a God or creator, and believing in evolution are not mutually exclusive, but evolution does seem to be in conflict with what is said in the Bible. I don't see how you can be a Christian who believes in the Bible, and also believe in evolution. Evolution says that we all come from a single common ancestor, that we came from simple organisms billions of years ago and gradually we came to be as we are today through modifications and very very slow changes. But the Bible says we were created all of a sudden, that man was created and before man came nothing. It says that we were the starting point. That's a pretty big conflict if you ask me.

If you believe in evolution, then you blatantly must not believe what is said in the Bible, at least regarding creation and how the human species came to be. I don't understand how you can then still choose to follow your religion as though it is right, and that what is said in the Bible is correct and the correct account of things. I don't understand that thought process.








Deffpony
  • Deffpony

    Stay Golden Ponyboy

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2007
  • None

#296

Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

@Stu: The new trend for Christians is to cherry pick ideas from science and the bible, only believing certain aspects of the bible that dont contradict with scientific reasoning.

stu
  • stu

    Ya filthy animal.

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom
  • Funniest Member 2013
    Funniest Member 2012

#297

Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:46 PM

Here's something else I don't get about religious people that believe in evolution. Heaven is supposed to be a place only for humans, because we are the only ones who can act morally and ethically. Animals don't get into heaven because they don't do that, they just act on instinct and aren't bound by the same ethical and moral codes. Well if they do believe that we slowly became human, surely heaven was just sitting idle for billions of years? When God suddenly decided, "hey you know what, let's actually populate this place!." Then around 200,000 years ago he decided we were evolved enough and intelligent and accountable enough to start letting us in. That just seems f*cking bizarre to me.

Deffpony
  • Deffpony

    Stay Golden Ponyboy

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2007
  • None

#298

Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

There are alot of biblical contradictions like that. Something that always bothered me was the thought of non christians/muslims/jews going to hell. A really religious friend of mine goes away on missions trips to teach people about Jesus. I ask him why he does this and he says to save these people. They will go to hell if they dont accept jesus.

I ask him why God would condemn these people to hell for living in a non Christian part of the world when God is the one responsible for these people being born there in the first place. How can he send them to hell if its his fault in the first place.

Im still waiting for an answer

Triple Vacuum Seal
  • Triple Vacuum Seal

    Ghetto Star

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Dec 2011
  • United-States

#299

Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE (deffpony @ Tuesday, Mar 5 2013, 14:53)
There are alot of biblical contradictions like that. Something that always bothered me was the thought of non christians/muslims/jews going to hell. A really religious friend of mine goes away on missions trips to teach people about Jesus. I ask him why he does this and he says to save these people. They will go to hell if they dont accept jesus.

I ask him why God would condemn these people to hell for living in a non Christian part of the world when God is the one responsible for these people being born there in the first place. How can he send them to hell if its his fault in the first place.

Im still waiting for an answer


100% agree here.

Radoonhagaydoon
  • Radoonhagaydoon

    Ignorance lives everywhere.

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 29 Mar 2012

#300

Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE (deffpony @ Tuesday, Mar 5 2013, 14:53)
There are alot of biblical contradictions like that. Something that always bothered me was the thought of non christians/muslims/jews going to hell. A really religious friend of mine goes away on missions trips to teach people about Jesus. I ask him why he does this and he says to save these people. They will go to hell if they dont accept jesus.

I ask him why God would condemn these people to hell for living in a non Christian part of the world when God is the one responsible for these people being born there in the first place. How can he send them to hell if its his fault in the first place.

Im still waiting for an answer

I don't understand what you mean. turn.gif




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users