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Atheists arguments against God

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Vormek
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#1

Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:55 PM

Before I start off I would like to mention a few things. This is not a hate thread and it's not my intention to start a big fight between Christians and atheists. I hope we can keep this thread peaceful and mature. If you want to express your opinion and start a discussion that's fine, as long as it doesn't go out of control. Remember, keep it civilized and mature. If you, while reading this post, get the impression that I mock atheists or being disrespectful to them, forgive me if it comes off like that. It is not my intention to hate anyone or to be disrespectful. I hope this thread will generate dozens of pages filled with interesting posts. Also, it would mean a lot to me if you read this entire post. I just don't like when people post something and they haven't read anything. They see a Christian making a thread and they instantly post "retarded Christian!" or other immature stuff. As I said, it would mean the world to me if you read this entire post. I just feel like this is a very important thread for me to make and as a Christian I feel obligated to spread this message. Don't look at this thread as "...another Bible thumping thread" because it is not, although a few Bible quotes are inevitable to appear from time to time. biggrin.gif

Alright, I got that out of my chest. Let us begin! What exactly defines atheism? Atheism really is nothing. Many people see atheism as logical and critical thinking and other people see atheism as a way of living by your own rules and to seek yourself. The general definition is simply; "not believing in a God". This is what atheists believe, right? That's alright with me. You have a free mind and you get to choose whatever you want to believe in. I have no problem with that. However, I tend to disagree with some of the things atheists say and this thread is simply to answer some arguments atheists frequently use as a way to "disprove" God. If you disagree with me on the stuff I'm about to write feel free to start a discussion. (Remember... civilized!)

_______________________________________________________________

CONTENTS:

1) Atheist: Who created God?

2) Atheist: God does not exist?

3) Atheist: The existence of God is illogical!

4) Atheist: Can God create a rock...

5) Atheist: Prove God!

6) Atheist: I only believe in what I can see and touch.

7) God is spiritual and is proved with spiritual methods.

8) Logical proof of God.

9) Einstein and Strindberg. Wise men!
______________________________________________________________


1) Atheist: Who created God?

I hear this argument all the time! Atheist use this argument frequently to disprove the existence of God. I understand the argument, I do, but there are many flaws. First of all, the question "who created God?" ASSUMES that God is limited. It assumes that God has a beginning and will therefor have an end. But the God of the Bible doesn't have a limit, He doesn't have a beginning and an end. God was never created because He does not consist of the unaware created matter, but by the aware eternal spiritual energy. Besides, God can't have been created by someone else, because God by definition is FIRST, the reason of all cause! God was first. How on Earth's name can the first one be created? That's like asking "what letter comes before A?".

THE CREATER COULD NOT HAVE BEEN CREATED BECAUSE IN THAT CASE HE WOULDN'T BE THE CREATOR!

God is outside of His Creation. He is outside of our universe. God created time, space and matter and God is OUTSIDE of all that. There is no time where God is, only eternity. God simply just is. He hasn't been created. And strangely enough, the atheist never ask themself the same question about Big Bang. Where did Big Bang come from? Big Bang, according to the text books, created everything in the universe. It therefor created time, space and matter as well. Which came first? Without space, where do you put matter? Without time, WHEN do you put matter? You see how time, space and matter must have been created at the EXACT same time? Big Bang teaches us that everything created itself out of absolutely nothing. Let me ask you this. How did Big Bang explode? Where did the energy for this explosion come from? Out of nowhere? Where did time, space and matter come from? Out of nowhere? For some reason, people really believe Big Bang occured. People seriously believe that everything in existence created itself out of absolutely nothing.

The universe must have an original cause!
There has to be a first original cause otherwise the universe wouldn't exist. Matter can't be the first cause becase life, awareness and intelligence can simply not plop out of lifeless matter. Matter cannot have created itself. To believe that matter is the original cause of the universe is the same as believing that mud is the cause of the crock. By practical experience every human knows that there's NOTHING which can create itself out of nothing. Mud had a creator. Believing that something can create itself is a stupid fable and only narrow minded atheists will believe that. (Sorry for being a tad harsh but it's true)

Not believing in an original first cause which created our universe is as stupid as believing that everything we see around us came out of nothingness.
God is in His original spiritual shape forever in the spiritual world, in God's kingdom, which was never created and will never be gone. Humans are just by nature greedy and full of pride. We want to be God's ourselves, we want to follow our own rules. The suffering in this world is a wake up call for all of us to realize that we do not belong here in this world full of evil of pain.
________________________________________________________________

2) Atheist: God does not exist!

That is a definite assumption, an absolute. Only someone who's all knowing can come with definite assumptions like that. Are you all knowing? By saying something like that you sure make it seem like that. In that case, you're God! Because you know EVERYTHING there is!
But no man knows everything, we know very little in ratio to what there is to know. But let's just assume for one moment that you know 50% of everything. That's a lot of knowledge. What if God exists on the other side, the other 50%?
________________________________________________________________

3) Atheist: The existence of God is illogical.

If you think that it's illogical for God to exist, did you ever stop to think the same thing about yourself? Do you think it's logial for you to exist? Why is your own existence more logial than God's? To believe that our own existence came about without an existing cause is the same as believing that sunrays can exist without the sun.
________________________________________________________________

4) Atheist: Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it Himself? And if he can't lift it, he's not almighty.

God is so almighty that He can expand Himself in two seperate shapes in which he lifts the rock in one, and does not lift the rock in the other shape. Besides, God is infinitely strong so it's a piece of cake for Him to lift a rock which is infinitely heavy.
If I would ask you to draw a square triangle what would you do? Would you take out your pencil and draw one? No you wouldn't because you know that a triangle per definition has three sides, not four. To draw a "square triangle" says nothing about your ability to draw triangles (or squares) because a "square triangle" is simply a nonsense expression I made up by puttin two words together. A rock so heavy no one can lift it is the same nonsense expression because a rock is per definition an object with a weight and can always be lifted assuming you're strong enough. To talk about a "rock to heavy for anyone to lift" is just as much nonsense as a square triangle. The "argument" is not a proper argument against God or his Almightyness, it's just a game with words. It's a logical contradiction, which is indeed pretty funny, but it does not hold up as an argument.
________________________________________________________________

5) Atheist: Prove God!

Atheists always demand God to appear Himself in front of their eyes before they will start believing. This is simply pride and God does not answer prideful challenges just as much as the President of USA would pay you a visit without you giving him any worthy qualifications which caught his attention. Ask yourself this: Do you, as an atheist, deserve to have a personal visit by the Almighty? What are your qualifications? When you can't even get the President of USA to pay you a visit, what makes you think God would appear in His all Greatness in front of your very eyes? It's the opposite. Atheists despise God, they spit on Him and do not want to get rid of their illusion that God does not exist. They want it to stay that way and because God does not interfere with the free will, the atheist will never feel the presence of God until he change his attitude. For the atheist, God will prove His existence when it's too late, when you're dead.
You cannot *see* God until you *realize*. Remember that. You must realize that God is essential and that His existence is the foundation of everything that is. First *realize* then *see*. If you cannot realize that the existence of God is essential for the universe to exist, how can we ever prove to such a blind person the existence of God when he doesn't have a clue about God's spiritual nature, looks and personality. You can never prove or convince an atheist about God or anything other that's spiritual because that atheist is spiritual blind.
This is like proving a color for someone who's blind.
____________________________________________________________________

6) Atheist: I only believe in what I can see and touch.

Can you see, hear or touch your thoughts?
Can you see, hear or touch your intelligence?
Can you see, hear or touch your conciousness?

No, you can't. There are phenomenon in this world which cannot be perceived with our physical senses. That's just the way it is. Because you don't really believe you're thoughtless, without a concious and an IQ with a negative value? I thought so. That's all I have to say. biggrin.gif
_____________________________________________________________________

7) God is spiritual and is proved with spiritual methods.

God is outside of the capabilites of science because God is spiritual and eternal and is not bound by time and matter as we are. He created a world accessable for scientific methods, but He is beyond it. This is not a weakness for a belief in Creation, just a limitation within science. The definition of science is gathering information by observing and experimenting, and from this make logical conclusions. God created a world which we can define by science. But He Himself cannot be defined in the same way. We can't see Him in a microscope or a telescope because He is outside of His Creation and using material instruments to find Him is useless. God is not material, He's spiritual all through and God is therefor not a part of our scientific competency which only deals with the material part of reality.
Science is a method, formulated by man, to study the physical reality. There's absolutely NOTHING which says (more than your own pride) that there isn't anything beyond our physical reality.

MATERIAL phenomenon can only be proven by MATERIAL methods!
SPIRITUAL phenomenon can only be proven by SPIRITUAL methods!

God's existence can only be found in the spiritual dimension which means that all of the atheists attempts to find Him with material methods have all been in vain and will forever fail. God can be found in our hearts and He will never leave our hearts. But to see, hear, experience or feel Him in our hearts is only possible when your heart is completely pure and washed away from all your sins. You just need to humble yourself and be sincere, first then will the proof come to you. You cannot find proof by using a binocular or measuringtape biggrin.gif
__________________________________________________________________________

8) Logical proof of God.

Perfection in the Creation:

How can it be that everything is so perfect? Everything is just so balanced and it's just simply amazing. The human body is so complex that scientists can't even explain half of how it works. Many interactions in nature are hard to explain without a "Creator". The whole Creation shows that there must be some form of logic behind it all. For many people, the perfection of our planet and the universe is proof enough.

The quest for the meaning of life:

Humans always needs something to live for because it's not enough to just exist. For some reason we always seek some form of a meaning. It's like we lost our meaning of life and since then we try to find it again in a way or another. Someone can give us the meaning of life, this Someone has to be God. The need for a meaning of life is a clue or proof that God exists.

The innver void:

Sometimes we speak of an inner void in humans, something which is missing. There are surprisingly many people who feel like there's something missing. Why do we have that feeling of emptiness? This emptiness came when we decided not to have anything to do with God. When you seek God it's just like this emptiness is replaced with a meaning. It's the same for all believers in God and this is a clue or proof that God exists.

The personal experience of God:

You often hear believers say: "I've experienced God". So many people can witness about the presence of God that it simply cannot be made up. This presence of God is mutual for all believers and something like that would have been impossible if God was just a made up person. Faith is a conviction of things you do not see.
The whole universe just seems so perfectly calibrated to make life possible. For this to be the work of Mr. Coincidence a.k.a. Big Bang is something only dopey, foggy theorists believe in. Just take your eyes as an example. Each eye has 110 million pixels each. Only someone as brilliant as God can come up with something that genius!
_______________________________________________________________

9) Einstein and Strindberg. Wise men!

"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous." Albert Einstein

"It's just as illogical to believe in the world but deny God, as it is to believe in the shoe but deny the shoemaker" August Strindberg
________________________________________________________________

What do you say folks? Hopefully this got you thinking a little bit. The Bible mentions how humans will behave during the end times. Humans will be lovers of themselves in the end times according to the Bible. Does that not fit the world today? Go to any gym and you'll see a guy standing in front of a mirror looking at his muscles and his clean shaved, tanned body. Humans will also walk after their own lust. Surely our world today is lustful, more than ever. We are living in the end times folks. Last chapters of revelations are coming true. The human behaviour today fits perfectly with end times scripture. Also, natural disasters have increased alot the past 100 years! A lot! There's also a lot of tensions between many of the strongest nations on Earth and the Bible says that there will be rumors of wars (WW3). And the past 100 years we've seen a huge increase in technology and the Bible mentions a period in human history where this would happen!

Well... this is all I had for now. God bless anyone who actually read this far! I'm sorry if there are any spelling or grammar mistakes. I'm only a 19 year old kid from Sweden so my English vocabulary is limited. The sentence structure might also be flawed here and there but it's really late here in Sweden and I wrote this pretty quickly.
I can go on and on how my life has changed since I found Jesus Christ when I was about 17 years old, but I think I will pass on that actually. Needless to say, my life changed for the better. No emptiness, no depression and no hate in my body. I just feel happy and pure, it's an awesome feeling! The free gift of salvation cannot do you any harm! Why not accept the gift Jesus Christ gave us when he sacrificed Himself for us? Don't know what to do? Read this website: http://christianity....ationprayer.htm

If you do what the link above says, and you're sincere about it then you're saved. Your soul is not damned any longer. But why stop there? Why not go out there and spread the word about Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation? Find out what His will is and do it! Live a great life, hate no one, fear no one, love thy Lord, read scriptures, talk to the Lord every day by praying and as mentioned, win souls to Christ!
___________________________________________________________________

Still not sure what to make of all this? I recommend you check out my thread about Kent Hovind on a website called Godlikeproductions. His seminars are simply AMAZING! Words cannot describe how amazing they are. His seminars alone must have saved thousands and thousands of souls. Simply amazing.

http://www.godlikepr...sage1317212/pg1
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DP Man
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#2

Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:10 PM

Whatever can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

/Thread

Cuban Warlord
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#3

Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

First off I read the entire post and I am 100% Lutheran Christian and I agree with most of what you have said. While I don't agree with most atheists you cant help but wonder with all the new technology and scientific breakthroughs if there is another explanation for how we got here. The big bang theory and evolution are not just opinions, they are backed by years of scientific study. Me personally I believe the Lord created everything as it is stated in Genesis but I can't just dismiss that there may be some truth in some of these scientific findings. I guess the main reason I am a christian and firmly believe in a higher power is because of the miracles that I've seen and heard about. Some of them just can't be rationally explained and the only explanation is that it was done by someone bigger than us.

One question I always get from atheists is.... Why do you believe in God if he doesn't always answer your prayers? Well the answer to that question would be that God works in mysterious ways. I mean hes not going to give you a million dollars and a mansion every time you ask for it. He may not answer your prayer in 5 minutes but I've always felt that hes shown me the right direction whenever I try to speak to him. I firmly believe that the Lord has a path for everyone and just because he doesn't give you that million dollars you ask for doesn't mean he could care less about you. It just means that he has a different path for you and that may not be what he wants you to do.

Anyway nice topic.

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#4

Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:25 PM Edited by TheGreatGig23, 05 May 2012 - 01:39 PM.

I'm going to bite my tongue on this as I'll only end up offending others. I respect other opinions and other beliefs but some of the examples you have used here to explain divinity are just ludicrous. I really don't want this topic to turn into a flame war as it's one of the things I like to debate about and hear other opinions but I can't help but have a lack of faith in some of the trolls around here who will get their sad little kicks off by instigating arguments.

Good topic though, man.

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#5

Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:25 PM

interesting topic icon14.gif Some day we can have peace... but its always fight between Atheists & Christian.

ishish
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#6

Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:34 PM

You need to ask yourself - Why does all of your logic pass through the filter of 'god', wheras some peoples doesn't.

No questions really need 'god' to answer them, but you can choose to involve him if you want, mainly due to your own bias towards the idea of a god, probably pushed by people who played a part in raising you as a child. (Asking and answering questions like "why is the sky blue?" "because god wanted a colour that would be nice on our eyes!" --- Not that it has a chemical explanation or anything.)

If you had been born somewhere else in the world, or at some point in time you probably would not have been a Christian, so why try so hard to justify something which relies so much on chance?



GTASAIDEAMASTER
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#7

Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:35 PM

I agree with everything,and i'm an agnostic.

Although,there's no proof god exists or doesn't.

But there's more to my life than believing something I will not ever see or know if I'm talking to myself or if there's really one almighty being hearing me.

I believe in the Evolution though,it all makes sense and science can prove things,which I believe because they have proof.

Mati
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#8

Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:49 PM

I honestly don't give a f*ck what other people (don't) believe. Believe in what you think is right. It's your thoughts after all.
I'm Christian myself, I don't care what others believe. I don't have a problem if you're Islam or Atheist. Actually, it's good if you follow what you believe. Nobody can take you that.

Toup
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#9

Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:01 PM

QUOTE (Mati @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 14:49)
I honestly don't give a f*ck what other people (don't) believe. Believe in what you think is right. It's your thoughts after all.
I'm Christian myself, I don't care what others believe. I don't have a problem if you're Islam or Atheist. Actually, it's good if you follow what you believe. Nobody can take you that.

So, if someone wants to debate something with you, you say f*ck it I don't care?

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#10

Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:11 PM

Well i would call myself an Atheist, i don't believe in (a) God, but i also don't believe that (a) God does not exist.
I cannot prove God does not exist, but i can't prove he does either.

So i am on the fence, i do however live my life as if there is no God, if there is, well bonus i suppose.

ishish
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#11

Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:11 PM

I personally think the apologists for religion are doing more damage than they realise (unintentionally).
I see religion as the celebration of ignorance. What does flirting with the idea of a particular god, with his particular wishes and aims (very often different from your neighbors god's, note) do for the progression of our species?

Homosapiens have existed for 100-250,000 years, and around 2,000 years ago, the Judaic-Christian bible was written with it's own moral rules and lifestyle rules that were seen fit for application at the time. It talks of owning slaves, not thinking of the 'morrow, and says things like ""How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock". We didn't know any better.

You can cherry pick all you like, but isn't a bad scripture proof of a false profit? Why would this almighty omnipotent god you encourage the idea of be so trivial? Modern man is more complex and altruistic than any 2000 year old god, who very much reflects the minds of it's makers.





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#12

Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:15 PM

I have debates about religion all the time, and I honestly can't understand why there are so many religious people.
But rather than simply stating my thoughts in detail, which would most certainly start a flame war, I will instead post a great two-part video.





I love Matt Dillahunty, he's a genius! smile.gif

Tyler
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#13

Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:31 PM Edited by Tyler, 05 May 2012 - 02:54 PM.

You should probably just take off the 'atheist' from the title, as these are frequent arguments from apologists, agnostics and atheists alike. As for the arguments themselves:

QUOTE
Alright, I got that out of my chest. Let us begin! What exactly defines atheism? Atheism really is nothing. Many people see atheism as logical and critical thinking and other people see atheism as a way of living by your own rules and to seek yourself. The general definition is simply; "not believing in a God". This is what atheists believe, right?


No. Atheism is simply defined as lack of belief in any god. There is a difference from what you said, which is basically seeing that a god exists, but choosing to not believe in him. What you are saying is akin to denying the existence of god, which is not at all what atheists are doing.

QUOTE
I hear this argument all the time! Atheist use this argument frequently to disprove the existence of God. I understand the argument, I do, but there are many flaws. First of all, the question "who created God?" ASSUMES that God is limited. It assumes that God has a beginning and will therefor have an end. But the God of the Bible doesn't have a limit, He doesn't have a beginning and an end. God was never created because He does not consist of the unaware created matter, but by the aware eternal spiritual energy. Besides, God can't have been created by someone else, because God by definition is FIRST, the reason of all cause! God was first. How on Earth's name can the first one be created? That's like asking "what letter comes before A?".


A is the successor to the aleph, from the Phonetician alphabet. It has precursors, but the Greeks did not see need for them when creating their alphabet, so they dropped all the letters before A. Arguments for god using metaphors that relate to things like alphabets, etc will not end in your favour, as every thing we use and know today as ancient origins that can for the most part be traced. Unlike god.

My problem with an eternal god is the concept of infinity itself. You claim it's stupid to think God would be confined in his own creation (our universe) but I think it's even worse to think he'd be able to freely mend the rules of our universe while simultaneously asking for faith, in a world that needs critical thinking.

QUOTE
God is in His original spiritual shape forever in the spiritual world, in God's kingdom, which was never created and will never be gone. Humans are just by nature greedy and full of pride. We want to be God's ourselves, we want to follow our own rules. The suffering in this world is a wake up call for all of us to realize that we do not belong here in this world full of evil of pain.


You see, this is why I abhor religious doctrine in general. You preach that humanity is intrinsically evil because we have pride and we want to be our own rulers. What is wrong with either of those things? History is riddled with battles and speeches dedicated to rising up against oppressors and gaining our own liberty. America became an icon for rising up against the unfairness of the Crown during the 1770s. How is that an evil thing at all?

As for suffering, that has nothing to do with why we're here or why we need to 'leave this world of pain'. Suffering is a consequence of injustice and coincidence, and calling it punishment for original sin gets us nowhere in actually solving the suffering. Neither does saying it's god's way of saying we need to be somewhere other than Heaven. If God created Earth for humanity, why do we need to be somewhere else now? Original Sin? The fable of Adam and Eve is at best an attempt at cautionary tales. At worst, it's the monologue for what injustice lies in the stories presented in the Bible. The first of many.


QUOTE
That is a definite assumption, an absolute. Only someone who's all knowing can come with definite assumptions like that. Are you all knowing?


Rhetorical questions do nothing to argue your point and only make you seem asinine. Of course none of us are all-knowing, it's a concept on the same level of infinity. How is assessing that god does not exist a more loaded, definite statement than assessing that he does? How does the burden of proof fall on someone who isn't asserting illogical statements like "worship this god that lives out of your conceptual gaze"? These are honest questions I'm asking you, keep in mind.


QUOTE
If you think that it's illogical for God to exist, did you ever stop to think the same thing about yourself? Do you think it's logial for you to exist? Why is your own existence more logial than God's? To believe that our own existence came about without an existing cause is the same as believing that sunrays can exist without the sun.


No, it's not. The possibility of life is much higher than the possibility of an all-knowing, all-loving, personal creator god. Your argument for sun rays not existing without the sun is assuming that God is our natural creator. We're disputing that, so simply throwing in a fact like that will get you nowhere.


"Ask yourself this: Do you, as an atheist, deserve to have a personal visit by the Almighty? What are your qualifications?"

Well, I'm a curious person who honestly wants the question definitely answered. Not for personal pride like you assume, and not for some sort of satisfaction. I'm just curious about it. I'd say 90%+ of atheists feel the same, but most have accepted that it will not happen. Not because of their 'Pride' rather, because the entity they're asking to appear before them does not exist.

QUOTE
Atheists despise God, they spit on Him and do not want to get rid of their illusion that God does not exist. They want it to stay that way and because God does not interfere with the free will, the atheist will never feel the presence of God until he change his attitude. For the atheist, God will prove His existence when it's too late, when you're dead.


What? How is that a loving god? What in the actual f*ck are you telling me here? No atheist wants the 'illusion of God' to stay that way. Every single atheist, and even agnostic I know, wants the question definitively answered so they can move on with their lives and work on other things. Myself included. I would love to know the answer so I can stop arguing with theists and atheists alike on it.

Proving himself after I'm dead? So he'll send me to hell for eternity based on a simple 60 year misunderstanding I had based on empirical evidence and logical questions? This god of yours will let me- nay, command me to burn in hell because I couldn't find the will to go against rationality and believe in him? This God sounds less desirable as you continue on.



QUOTE
How can it be that everything is so perfect? Everything is just so balanced and it's just simply amazing. The human body is so complex that scientists can't even explain half of how it works. Many interactions in nature are hard to explain without a "Creator". The whole Creation shows that there must be some form of logic behind it all. For many people, the perfection of our planet and the universe is proof enough.


Nothing about our universe is perfect. Be it physically, psychologically, socially, etc. We are prone to illogical tantrums and we have things inside our bodies like appendix and wisdom teeth. The physical universe around us is set in patterns that we call Laws of Nature, but laws are most definitely not perfect. There is logic, and there is harmony, but there is no perfection in the universe, at least, not outside of the poetic sense.


QUOTE
Humans always needs something to live for because it's not enough to just exist. For some reason we always seek some form of a meaning. It's like we lost our meaning of life and since then we try to find it again in a way or another. Someone can give us the meaning of life, this Someone has to be God. The need for a meaning of life is a clue or proof that God exists.


No, it's not. It's a psychological evolution that has created an intrinsic need to create goals in life and find beauty and harmony in the world we live in. God can be a very bad answer to both of those, but most everyone alive can find a better answer to either, be it short or long-term goals, or simply appreciation for what science has shown us of the natural world.


QUOTE
Sometimes we speak of an inner void in humans, something which is missing. There are surprisingly many people who feel like there's something missing. Why do we have that feeling of emptiness? This emptiness came when we decided not to have anything to do with God. When you seek God it's just like this emptiness is replaced with a meaning. It's the same for all believers in God and this is a clue or proof that God exists.


Every instance of depressed lapses of feeling can be explained by genetic trends or past experiences. I feel empty sometimes due to drug use and reminiscing the deaths of friends and family. I do not feel empty because I secretly yearn for God.


QUOTE
Faith is a conviction of things you do not see.


No, faith is complete trust in something despite no evidence arguing for it. Candy-coating that to sound like you have to have a spiritual side does not make it any less nonsensical.



EDIT: quote failures.

sivispacem
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#14

Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:43 PM Edited by sivispacem, 05 May 2012 - 03:55 PM.

It has always been, and will always be my view that Christians cannot logically critique the arguments of atheists (many of which you gloss over or dispute as straw men rather that actually addressing the issues at hand) without first explaining how they have arrived at their conclusion that he/she/it exists. It's a logical fallacy to attack an argument without first declaring your own argument and its basis. What's more I do not feel that the burden of proof lies on the sceptic, whose scepticism is based on rationality and experience, but on the believer.

I'm happy to let the topic remain as long as it does not become a pissing contest. I've also edited the title to be less intentionally inflammatory- it rather damages your credibility by accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you as "childish".

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#15

Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:49 PM Edited by sivispacem, 05 May 2012 - 03:44 PM.

Whoopsy. moto_whistle.gif

-you've been here long enough to know to keep the one-word crap out of D&D. SVP-

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#16

Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:11 PM

You made some good points, and clearly put a lot of effort into this thread. I'm just going to address one particular point here, which is often quite a popular thing for theists to bring up, and that is:

QUOTE
How can it be that everything is so perfect? Everything is just so balanced and it's just simply amazing. The human body is so complex that scientists can't even explain half of how it works. Many interactions in nature are hard to explain without a "Creator". The whole Creation shows that there must be some form of logic behind it all. For many people, the perfection of our planet and the universe is proof enough.


The thing is it isn't perfect, if it was perfect then why are people/animals born with defects? Why do species go extinct? Why are new species created? It's because we live in a constantly changing and adapting system, one which is defined by laws of nature and evolution. The system is far from perfect.

Scientists know a lot of how the human body works, theres's nothing particularly mysterious about it. There's nothing that makes scientists go "hmmm... this is very strange and we have no idea how it works therefore it must have been the work of a creator." or "this is impossible for this to work without some form of planning involved". We don't know everything, but that isn't proof of it being so utterly complicated and complex that the only option is it must somehow have been made by some almighty creator. We're constantly learning about ourselves and the world we live in, and the more we do learn the more it becomes apparent that what is written in the bible is simply not true.

I can accept that there might be some kind of deity who created everything, although I don't particularly believe it. But the idea that we have a God like the one in the bible, and the the world was created in the way the bible states, is totally and utterly false. I respect people who believe in a deity, but I don't respect people who believe in the bible and everything it says.



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#17

Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:20 PM

I'm not going to get involved here. I am a very quiet atheist deeply grounded in science.

2 things:
-People don't need to prove something doesn't exist - by nature everything doesn't exist without proof, but people do have to prove something does exist. The onus of proof falls on the religious folk. Scientist and atheists just have to stand off to the side and wait for proof.

-To paraphrase Frank Zappa. If god created us to be like him then god must be dumb, and even a little ugly on the side.
I'm not usually one to say "listen to this song and lyrics", but if you do it makes a scary amount of sense.

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#18

Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:33 PM

I lol at one bit, "Can you see/hear/touch your thoughts" and "Can you see/hear/touch your consiousness"
See and touch, no. But your can hear your thoughts, because your thoughts are your thoughts, they're in your mind. So you can basically hear your own thoughts, but not others. Mel Gibson flash-back!

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#19

Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:34 PM

In a way that may be counter intuitive, I don't think logic has any play in the argument of whether or not there is/are a god/gods. As such, I tend to avoid calling it an argument because one side will never convince the other.

Now, hear me out here. The very idea of a god defies logic,they exist outside of our physical universe and as such don't need to operate on the same rules of logic as everything else. And even if they existed within the realms of creation, they would be able to break natural laws of physics and logic because they are the creator; the world responds to them not the other way around.

In the end it all comes down to faith. Faith is completely within one's self. It can't be forcefully instilled in someone, you can make them bend their actions and conduct to seem like they believe, but you cannot make them believe. Similarly, you can't force someone to not believe. If they truly believe, then facts, logic and insults will just slide off like water off a duck's metaphorical, because faith is stronger than fact. True, people can find or lose God but that's a personal journey.

I'm always hesitant to assign a label to my beliefs with regard to religion. The closest label is probably somewhere between atheist and agnostic, but neither sit quite right with me, especially on the internet where atheists are stereotypically arrogant and confrontational people who assert their assumed intellectual superiority because they have different beliefs than the religious.

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#20

Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE (Toup @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 16:01)
QUOTE (Mati @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 14:49)
I honestly don't give a f*ck what other people (don't) believe. Believe in what you think is right. It's your thoughts after all.
I'm Christian myself, I don't care what others believe. I don't have a problem if you're Islam or Atheist. Actually, it's good if you follow what you believe. Nobody can take you that.

So, if someone wants to debate something with you, you say f*ck it I don't care?

Yes, cause in 95% of cases so-called debate turns into "Or you're a believer? Then you're retarded, I'm higher than you, smarter than you, I know everything and you know nothing blah blah".

Actually all internet debates turn into this.

So I'm with Mati - I'm OK with everyone who's OK with me.

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#21

Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:49 PM

QUOTE (Robinski @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 12:34)
I'm always hesitant to assign a label to my beliefs with regard to religion. The closest label is probably somewhere between atheist and agnostic, but neither sit quite right with me, especially on the internet where atheists are stereotypically arrogant and confrontational people who assert their assumed intellectual superiority because they have different beliefs than the religious.

That is one of the reasons I don't run around telling people I'm atheist. Some atheists give other atheists a bad name. If you look at the top authors/speakers on atheism you'll notice they don't go running around saying god doesn't exist. Even the noted Richard Dawkins claims he doesn't know, and that a god could even exist. In my mind it is all about being open minded and thinking with logic other than emotion.

Religion has always been around as a form of control. I'm not saying that in a bad way. Way way way back there was a need to control people, since at one time in history people were basically savages. They needed to be scared into behaving in a civil mater.

The one thing that should have people thinking about how true religion is how religions(the church) has changed and altered their texts and beliefs as science proves them wrong. Originally earth was the center of the universe. God created earth and everything revolved around us because we are so special. Eventually it was discovered that we are not the center of the universe. So the church just changed their texts and beliefs to match. It's kind of like playing a made up kids game with your friend and he keeps changing the rules(while playing) to his advantage so that he can win.

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#22

Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:08 PM

QUOTE (ManDog @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 11:33)
I lol at one bit, "Can you see/hear/touch your thoughts" and "Can you see/hear/touch your consiousness"
See and touch, no. But your can hear your thoughts, because your thoughts are your thoughts, they're in your mind. So you can basically hear your own thoughts, but not others. Mel Gibson flash-back!

Not to mention that intelligence can be measured through IQ tests.

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#23

Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:08 PM

QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 16:49)
The one thing that should have people thinking about how true religion is how religions(the church) has changed and altered their texts and beliefs as science proves them wrong.  Originally earth was the center of the universe.  God created earth and everything revolved around us because we are so special.  Eventually it was discovered that we are not the center of the universe.  So the church just changed their texts and beliefs to match.  It's kind of like playing a made up kids game with your friend and he keeps changing the rules(while playing) to his advantage so that he can win.

I don't think that's too bad to be honest. I'm gonna be a little ignorant here and only talk in terms of the Christian church, because it's all I know. But the way I see it is that it operates the same way as science. The Bible and religious teachings are just man's approximation of God's word, they are fallible, and as time goes on and we understand more about the universe and what's in it we change what our understanding of God's message is. Just like how in science, when new evidence and theory is found to hold true, we change the textbooks and what we teach.

Hopefully, if we find life on other planets or something, I'd hope that the Church would change its stance on humanity as God's only child and change that to humanity being one of God's many children. Just a (very optimistic) example.

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#24

Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:19 PM

Robinski, I hear what you are saying and it is a good point. It would be nice if all religious people felt that way. Just the same as it would be nice if some atheists didn't run around like assholes saying they are right.

My only disagreement with what you are saying is science tends to say "we suggest, or we think possible" while the church says "this is the way". Science always leaves a door open to change while religion claims their statements as absolute until proven wrong.

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#25

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:18 PM

QUOTE

What's more I do not feel that the burden of proof lies on the sceptic, whose scepticism is based on rationality and experience, but on the believer.

That's a frequent argument, usually coupled with "prove there isn't a teapot flying around the universe". I feel that since God is something humans have believed in for so many thousands of years, in varying forms, the burden lies on those claiming against that widely held belief. Did Galileo's assertion that in fact, all planets revolve around the sun and not the Earth, not have any burden for him to prove? Should we have just said "oh that's rational", so don't bother proving it at all? I identify as a Christian simply because for the most part I agree with the morals and teachings, and probably also because I like the history of it. My beliefs are more in line with an 18th century Deist though.

By the way, what experience do you speak of? I can get the rationality part, but what experience do you or any others have with proving whether or not a deity exists?

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#26

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:31 PM

I find the label of atheists being arrogant as tiring.
Shall we discuss style, or content?


I understand that religious people have a lot of their self esteem and worth rooted in these ideas, but to turn on the debater of the other side instead of keeping to the argument is useless.


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#27

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:31 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 14:18)
I identify as a Christian simply because for the most part I agree with the morals and teachings

That's the thing. There was a time when those morals and teachings needed to be imposed. I really like to think at this stage in existence those morals and teachings are now just common sense. Not to toot my own horn, but there have been many instances in my life where I have been more moral and forgiving than someone who claims they are christian...and I'm a hard set atheist.

It's almost sad that we need to be told what is socially right and wrong in today's age. Common sense. I know not to have sex with my neighbors wife. Not because I fear going to hell, but because it is just morally wrong. I know not to steal. Not because I fear going to hell, but because I know it is morally wrong.

We shouldn't have to be told to be 'good people'. And I honestly think we shouldn't have to be feared and threatened into being 'good people'. I'm pretty sure it is easy for the healthy functioning person to know basic right and wrong.

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#28

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:35 PM

QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 13:31)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 14:18)
I identify as a Christian simply because for the most part I agree with the morals and teachings

That's the thing. There was a time when those morals and teachings needed to be imposed. I really like to think at this stage in existence those morals and teachings are now just common sense. Not to toot my own horn, but there have been many instances in my life where I have been more moral and forgiving than someone who claims they are christian...and I'm a hard set atheist.

It's almost sad that we need to be told what is socially right and wrong in today's age. Common sense. I know not to have sex with my neighbors wife. Not because I fear going to hell, but because it is just morally wrong. I know not to steal. Not because I fear going to hell, but because I know it is morally wrong.

We shouldn't have to be told to be 'good people'. And I honestly think we shouldn't have to be feared and threatened into being 'good people'. I'm pretty sure it is easy for the healthy functioning person to know basic right and wrong.

But as you argue that it's no longer necessary as they are all social mores now, you're forgetting that those very morals and teachings that are now essentially latent in everyone wouldn't have existed without the religious teachings in the first place.

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#29

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:36 PM Edited by Slamman, 05 May 2012 - 06:41 PM.

I consider myself Old School Christian as opposed to Born Again, they take on a more radical air that's a bit in your face. I feel the pressure to accept a religion should not feel forced, or preached, but given that man doesn't know half of what's reality, God is the only one who really does!

As for Trip, Hoping to influence him in a Godly manner! ha ha
A real good friend of mine was Buddhist and he would bring me along to meetings where they gathered to chant, etc. As soon as they were asking me for money though, I stopped. I didn't want that kind of pressure to accept another religion, I just look at Christians that I know as very nice people, all have faults too, just like you, no Holier Then Thou attitude that I'm aware of

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#30

Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 14:35)
QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 13:31)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, May 5 2012, 14:18)
I identify as a Christian simply because for the most part I agree with the morals and teachings

That's the thing. There was a time when those morals and teachings needed to be imposed. I really like to think at this stage in existence those morals and teachings are now just common sense. Not to toot my own horn, but there have been many instances in my life where I have been more moral and forgiving than someone who claims they are christian...and I'm a hard set atheist.

It's almost sad that we need to be told what is socially right and wrong in today's age. Common sense. I know not to have sex with my neighbors wife. Not because I fear going to hell, but because it is just morally wrong. I know not to steal. Not because I fear going to hell, but because I know it is morally wrong.

We shouldn't have to be told to be 'good people'. And I honestly think we shouldn't have to be feared and threatened into being 'good people'. I'm pretty sure it is easy for the healthy functioning person to know basic right and wrong.

But as you argue that it's no longer necessary as they are all social mores now, you're forgetting that those very morals and teachings that are now essentially latent in everyone wouldn't have existed without the religious teachings in the first place.

Not true. Religion or not, I'm pretty sure man would have figured out right and wrong somehow. There could have been some charismatic caveman that stood atop a bolder who said "Ya know what guys...it's not fair to steal the food from your neighbor after he spent all day and all of his energy to spear that saber tooth tiger. Maybe if you ask him nicely he may be kind enough to spare a bite. How would you feel if you spent all day and he stole your tiger meat? - think about it guys."

Also those religious teachings that laid ground to our base morals today was pretty nasty and laden with fear. People don't like fear and the further you push down the seed, the longer it will last.




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