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Welfare in America

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Melchior
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#31

Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:29 AM

QUOTE (thecommander @ Friday, May 11 2012, 14:52)
If you have a criminal record, its your own fault, I have no sympathy for you, neither should society.

Yeah, it's not like people commit crimes for a myriad of complex socio-economic and psychological reasons that are totally beyond their control. They're just bad people. sarcasm.gif

Honestly man, you need to get with the program. There's no way you can actually believe this trash.

rentalman
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#32

Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:36 PM

they say it is needed, but when you go to other countires you just realize how far people go to make money, they will even sell gum on the streets to people..

sivispacem
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#33

Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

QUOTE (rentalman @ Wednesday, May 16 2012, 14:36)
they say it is needed, but when you go to other countires you just realize how far people go to make money, they will even sell gum on the streets to people..

Which is all well and good, but selling gum in a Western country on the streets won't earn you money to live on. It probably won't earn you money full stop. And what about those too ill to work?

DarrinPA
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#34

Posted 14 June 2012 - 10:24 PM Edited by DarrinPA, 14 June 2012 - 10:26 PM.

Selling gum, haha. It's impossible to beat the prices of places like Walmart because they can buy in quanity millions of dollars from the manufacturer which in turn gives them the best prices. It's hard to get ahead in America. But once somebody does get a profitable company going they turn on the little guy. Look at GTA IV, the guys at the top keep all the money while the people who actually made the game get less than 1% of what the Housers made. Which is what a capitalist market is about. But when that greed starts making people suffer*, that's when taxes are needed to protect those who don't hold that type of power.

As for a flat tax. It could be good but here in America companies and corporations have specific bills [or laws] written by them and for them to get a different tax rate. It's quite disturbing that they hold so much power that they can submit a bill [or law] to a politician and can get it passed - all for their own benefit.

Welfare is needed, BUT the middle class shouldn't be paying so much towards it, the top 1% need to realize that they have an obligation to actually pay a fair tax amount. It's sick how people like Romney brag about their low tax payments while owning 9 houses. America is in this hole because of an even tax code, not welfare.


*Not that Hollick "suffered". I'm talking about people being paid minimum wage and such.

MIKON8ERISBACK
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#35

Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:04 PM

I think welfare needs to be limited to those who are physically disabled or severely mentally disabled. Those who apply for welfare should be subject to testing to ensure they meet strict criteria. They could be physically handicapped, injured, or mentally disabled in a way that limits their ability to hold a steady job. Unemployment insurance and other such handouts should come from the private sector.

El_Diablo
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#36

Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:57 PM

QUOTE (MIKON8ERISBACK @ Sunday, Jul 8 2012, 11:04)
Unemployment insurance and other such handouts should come from the private sector.

that would never work.

unemployment insurance is not a money-maker.

Chunkyman
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#37

Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:33 PM

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Sunday, Jul 8 2012, 18:57)
QUOTE (MIKON8ERISBACK @ Sunday, Jul 8 2012, 11:04)
Unemployment insurance and other such handouts should come from the private sector.

that would never work.

unemployment insurance is not a money-maker.

Obviously it's not a money-maker when the government runs it. sigh.gif

Someone could come up with a profitable system in which monthly contributions would provide a hedge against some of the financial perils of unemployment. But that's just absurd libertarian bullsh*t, like car insurance. Oh, wait...

El_Diablo
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#38

Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Sunday, Jul 8 2012, 12:33)
Obviously it's not a money-maker when the government runs it.  sigh.gif

no see, this goes back to your biased view about taxes.
you don't get it.

government-run programs are not supposed to be profitable. at the very least they don't have to be profitable in order to define their success (or failure, for that matter). government is not a business. its services are not meant to be viewed in so strict a context as making or losing money. by and large it is government that is supposed to support the private sectors ability to produce its OWN capital which is returned - in part - by way of taxation; and as the GDP goes the private sector goes.

government is supposed to be the neutral purveyor of public good.
it was never meant to be a profitable Fortune 100 company.

QUOTE
Someone could come up with a profitable system in which monthly contributions would provide a hedge against some of the financial perils of unemployment. But that's just absurd libertarian bullsh*t, like car insurance. Oh, wait...

once again you're simply off-base.

car insurance cannot compare with unemployment insurance.
you can live just fine without a car. you can't live in anything but squalor without a job.

apples, meet oranges.

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#39

Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:08 PM

Are there any prosperous countries that lack a welfare system?

El_Diablo
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#40

Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:16 PM

North Korea! orly.gif

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#41

Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:57 AM

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Sunday, Jul 8 2012, 18:16)
North Korea! orly.gif

The reason they don't have a welfare system is because the country is so prosperous to a point it simply does not require one.

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#42

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:47 AM

Tell me what you think of my idea for welfare. Let's get rid of all government programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Further get rid of Food Stamps, Public Housing and all government subsides in all industries. All Americans 18 and up or employed would pay a flat income tax of the same level no matter what. To replace it all EVERY American would receive a 1,000 dollar check every month from the government regardless of income, criminal history, race, sex, orientation, weight, nation of origin, disability, etc. Children would receive no checks but instead the Federal Government would pay for 4 years of college for all who wish to attend. What do you all think?

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#43

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:55 AM

QUOTE (Dimitri. @ Friday, Apr 27 2012, 09:16)
My mother suffers from M.E., Bi Polar and a few mobility problems, so cannot get a job.

Have you ever worried about if today is the day you get evicted from your council house for late rent? Have you ever felt that fear of opening the door, in case it's the debt collectors coming to take what measly posessions you have? Or how about having to stay at a relative's house, simply to save paying the electricity bill so you can pay for a close relative's funeral? I doubt it.

Without this welfare money, I'd have been in a care home when I was a child, my Dad would have killed himself with drugs, and my Mum would have either killed herself or currently be locked away in an institution.

This sums up my entire entire child/teenhood perfectly, to the point where it scares me.

Leftcoast
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#44

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

QUOTE (bobgtafan @ Wednesday, Jul 11 2012, 02:47)
Tell me what you think of my idea for welfare. Let's get rid of all government programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Further get rid of Food Stamps, Public Housing and all government subsides in all industries. All Americans 18 and up or employed would pay a flat income tax of the same level no matter what. To replace it all EVERY American would receive a 1,000 dollar check every month from the government regardless of income, criminal history, race, sex, orientation, weight, nation of origin, disability, etc. Children would receive no checks but instead the Federal Government would pay for 4 years of college for all who wish to attend. What do you all think?

I don't like a flat tax for every working American. First off I do believe that the lower end of the income scare need and deserve an income tax break, next would be middle class who I believe need small income tax break, then any one making enough to put themselves above middle class can pay the regular rate. The lower and middle class shouldn't be pressured with the same tax rate as the wealthy, especially the lowest end of the income scale.

I don't see the value in giving money back to every citizen, there is a reason social security was created. I am all for fixing social security, not abolishing it and giving people money every month from 18 and up. The problem is that most people will not think to save that money for retirement, they will use it "here and now" and not later.

bobgtafan
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#45

Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:45 AM

QUOTE (Leftcoast @ Wednesday, Jul 11 2012, 14:45)
QUOTE (bobgtafan @ Wednesday, Jul 11 2012, 02:47)
Tell me what you think of my idea for welfare. Let's get rid of all government programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Further get rid of Food Stamps, Public Housing and all government subsides in all industries. All Americans 18 and up or employed would pay a flat income tax of the same level no matter what. To replace it all EVERY American would receive a 1,000 dollar check every month from the government regardless of income, criminal history, race, sex, orientation, weight, nation of origin, disability, etc. Children would receive no checks but instead the Federal Government would pay for 4 years of college for all who wish to attend. What do you all think?

I don't like a flat tax for every working American. First off I do believe that the lower end of the income scare need and deserve an income tax break, next would be middle class who I believe need small income tax break, then any one making enough to put themselves above middle class can pay the regular rate. The lower and middle class shouldn't be pressured with the same tax rate as the wealthy, especially the lowest end of the income scale.

I don't see the value in giving money back to every citizen, there is a reason social security was created. I am all for fixing social security, not abolishing it and giving people money every month from 18 and up. The problem is that most people will not think to save that money for retirement, they will use it "here and now" and not later.

Why should the poor and middle class have to have less of a tax burden than the rich? If we're all citizens and all have a stake in our nation we should all pay the same percentage of our wealth towards it. The same goes for welfare. Why are only veterans, the elderly, children and the poor entitled to free health care? Why can't I have free health care? Why should MY taxes me collected to pay for others to have free health care while I have to pay? That's more unfair then those groups not having health care at all.

Melchior
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#46

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:28 PM

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Monday, Jul 9 2012, 05:33)
QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Sunday, Jul 8 2012, 18:57)
QUOTE (MIKON8ERISBACK @ Sunday, Jul 8 2012, 11:04)
Unemployment insurance and other such handouts should come from the private sector.

that would never work.

unemployment insurance is not a money-maker.

Obviously it's not a money-maker when the government runs it. sigh.gif

Someone could come up with a profitable system in which monthly contributions would provide a hedge against some of the financial perils of unemployment. But that's just absurd libertarian bullsh*t, like car insurance. Oh, wait...

But it would be in their interest to pay out as little as possible; as such, the payouts would be highly conditional, and they'd likely cut you off after a point. Why not just keep it as it is?

Leftcoast
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#47

Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE (bobgtafan @ Thursday, Jul 12 2012, 05:45)
Why should the poor and middle class have to have less of a tax burden than the rich? If we're all citizens and all have a stake in our nation we should all pay the same percentage of our wealth towards it. The same goes for welfare. Why are only veterans, the elderly, children and the poor entitled to free health care? Why can't I have free health care? Why should MY taxes me collected to pay for others to have free health care while I have to pay? That's more unfair then those groups not having health care at all.

My reasoning for proposing an income tax break for lower and middle class is to give them more disposable income since they are far more likely to need the extra money. Lower and Middle class families are far more likely to have problems buying food, clothing and other essentials compared to the upper class families. Basically, I prefer a tax plan that helps lower and middle class to be successful in life.

For me as a personal example; I don't consider myself upper class. Since I am single, my family is myself and I currently have a good job. I make pretty good money for a single person so I would be paying the regular tax rate under my plan. Conversely, if I had a wife with 2 kids, one being a new born the wife was taking care of at home I would fall under middle class and qualify for the tax break.

I do agree with you about certain people getting free health care and others not is not entirely fair. I am a firm believer that we do need a better social safety net for healthcare. I still feel that veterans, children, poor and the elderly do deserve a helping hand at healthcare in some form. These types of problems aren't easy ones to solve, I don't have any good plan for fixing this system to make it "fair". At the end of the day, we do need to use some of our tax money for the greater good. As humans, we rely on others from time to time for help and other times we help out. That's how we got this far in society, we are not solitary creatures and cannot survive alone, we must help each other here and there.

Irviding
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#48

Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:08 PM

QUOTE (bobgtafan @ Thursday, Jul 12 2012, 00:45)
QUOTE (Leftcoast @ Wednesday, Jul 11 2012, 14:45)
QUOTE (bobgtafan @ Wednesday, Jul 11 2012, 02:47)
Tell me what you think of my idea for welfare. Let's get rid of all government programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Further get rid of Food Stamps, Public Housing and all government subsides in all industries. All Americans 18 and up or employed would pay a flat income tax of the same level no matter what. To replace it all EVERY American would receive a 1,000 dollar check every month from the government regardless of income, criminal history, race, sex, orientation, weight, nation of origin, disability, etc. Children would receive no checks but instead the Federal Government would pay for 4 years of college for all who wish to attend. What do you all think?

I don't like a flat tax for every working American. First off I do believe that the lower end of the income scare need and deserve an income tax break, next would be middle class who I believe need small income tax break, then any one making enough to put themselves above middle class can pay the regular rate. The lower and middle class shouldn't be pressured with the same tax rate as the wealthy, especially the lowest end of the income scale.

I don't see the value in giving money back to every citizen, there is a reason social security was created. I am all for fixing social security, not abolishing it and giving people money every month from 18 and up. The problem is that most people will not think to save that money for retirement, they will use it "here and now" and not later.

Why should the poor and middle class have to have less of a tax burden than the rich? If we're all citizens and all have a stake in our nation we should all pay the same percentage of our wealth towards it. The same goes for welfare. Why are only veterans, the elderly, children and the poor entitled to free health care? Why can't I have free health care? Why should MY taxes me collected to pay for others to have free health care while I have to pay? That's more unfair then those groups not having health care at all.

Because it's not fair. It's not the same burden if you have an equal tax percentage and to think so is very simplistic of you. Let's say I make 420,000 a year, and you make 42,000 a year. We both have a flat tax rate of 16%. You pay 6720 to the government each year, which severely dents your income and causes you to have to live in a very weak financial situation. I pay 67200 to the government each year, which is absolutely nothing for me. It hardly makes a difference in my life. Taxes should be fair, i.e. they should hurt everyone close to equally, therefore the only way that works is to take a higher percentage from me and a lower percentage from you. That's not even getting into the economics of why a flat tax wouldn't work, namely it would not nearly cover a third of the current federal budget.

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#49

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:16 PM

Welfare is a necessity for any civilised nation - while prone to abuse, it is vital for the disabled, the recently redundant, those who must supply for their families in times of need; particularly these demographics are at a disadvantage, frequently through no fault of their own. They must be assisted until they can support themselves (perhaps you'd prefer they starve in the streets?). Acquiring work is even harder under the current economic situation, which may aggrieve the issue of welfare for some, but rather I feel it reiterates it's importance. I'm uncertain why Americans (some, not all, but I'm generalising for ease of argument) are so disgustingly ruthless regarding 'socialist' policies. I wasn't aware the governments role was to exploit the people; many of you are up in arms over reforms and new legislation which will assist the poorer people of your nation; like they are a cancerous lower species who deserve no sympathy because they were unable to keep up the pace on the good ol' American treadmill.

Surprisingly (for some Republicans it may come as a drink spitting revelation), the free market isn't a benevolent demi-god which magically corrects itself and provides the best service through some unseen karma - placing your faith in a system which rewards the rich and slices away at the poor is symptomatic of idiocy regarding politics, something the infantile and uneducated flock to. You needn't be communist to have a fine balance between economic liberty and civic responsibility (*cough* majority of Europe *cough*); welfare is and always will be a must. If you're in the habit of judging a countries glory by GDP rather than quality of living, then I feel sorry for you, and only hope you're never poor enough to need welfare.




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