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is John Lennon overrated?

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El_Diablo
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#31

Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE (trip @ Saturday, Apr 14 2012, 10:16)
All of the game changers are put on super high pedestals. And there is no denying that he was part of a game changing band.

I have no problem with the Beatles spot atop the podium; the Beatles, as a group, as a collective.

but not John Lennon on his own merit.

Slamman
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#32

Posted 14 April 2012 - 11:30 PM

It's the fact he died violently as he did, when he strove for PEACE, it moved people tremendously. He wasn't all that arrogant, as I see it

ILIKEFIREPLACES
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#33

Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:01 AM

QUOTE (Slamman @ Saturday, Apr 14 2012, 23:30)
He wasn't all that arrogant, as I see it

He is one of the few people in the world that was allowed to be arrogant, for example Michael Jordan is allowed to be arrogant about Basketball. smile.gif

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#34

Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:38 AM

QUOTE (Slamman @ Saturday, Apr 14 2012, 23:30)
It's the fact he died violently as he did, when he strove for PEACE, it moved people tremendously. He wasn't all that arrogant, as I see it

He was a dogmatic fascist who believed in removing religion and notions of nationality. And his idea of 'peace' was, in fact, submission to Communists and other collectivists like himself.
Like all Utopians, he didn't give a damn about your rights or opinions. What about your right to practice your religion? What about your right to be proud of your country? Did St. John respect that? I doubt it.
But there he was, playing the peace activist whilst hoping for the furtherance of the brutal Soviet dictatorship. He was a charlatan and a demagogue and he gets no respect from me.

ShaneHunter
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#35

Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:00 PM Edited by ShaneHunter, 16 April 2012 - 06:03 PM.

typhus you are an idiot, Lennon didn't like religion and his reason was simple: religion caused and still causes war as well as being about money. In Imagine he was trying to show us verbally what a world without religion(therefore war) and greed(therefore hunger) would be like. He did not lean towards communism you idiot, he had claimed on many occasions that he disliked what communist countries were doing. Watch his Dick Cavett interview and research some more before you open your mouth with false claims. And even if he did support communism(which he did not) what is your problem with communism?? The problem with communism/socialism is that all of the leaders so far have been greedy and corrupt (save Castro who did his best given the situation.) You have much to learn typhus.

Anyway moving on i urge everyone to watch the vids JOSEPH X has provided us, The Beatles is my favorite band of all time and the vids got me to appreciate them even more.

Slamman
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#36

Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:49 PM

I laugh at the idea he was fascist.
I read more about the Pink Floyd members, of their families beliefs and how it impacted their art. Overall, we're all humans though, no one has the one true answer, just pearls of wisdom

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#37

Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:18 PM Edited by Darkshade12, 17 April 2012 - 08:24 PM.

QUOTE (mikkenugent @ Wednesday, Apr 11 2012, 19:18)
IMHO very much yes. Not that he wasn't a good musician but he wasn't what everyone claims he was. In a way Hendrix and Cobain suffer from the same hype. The lives they lived and the way they made it to prominence seems to outshine their actual music. I dig Led Zep but not because they wrote great songs like everyone one says, but because they stole great songs! Its a taste thing and don't be pressured into liking someone because its in vogue, in fact I've been in the same type of debates as u with friends.

I think less in the case of Hendrix, He DID actualy have a major influence on guitar music and was doing some things that were never done back then. I agree about Kurt Cobain though, I wouldn't call him a brilliant musician at all but it would be wrong to say that he didn't have some sort of influence on people. But Hendrix really did make a difference to modern music.

One thing related to the Beatles though, i disagree completely with the view of Paul McCartney being the best bass player of all time. I mean from a technical standpoint there are some many bass players that can do so much more with the intrument, Billy Sheehan being my favourite personally. I do agree that Paul was a very good song writer though, but to call him the best bassist really does make me annoyed.

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#38

Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:39 PM

QUOTE (ShaneHunter @ Monday, Apr 16 2012, 18:00)
typhus you are an idiot, Lennon didn't like religion and his reason was simple: religion caused and still causes war as well as being about money. In Imagine he was trying to show us verbally what a world without religion(therefore war) and greed(therefore hunger) would be like. He did not lean towards communism you idiot, he had claimed on many occasions that he disliked what communist countries were doing. Watch his Dick Cavett interview and research some more before you open your mouth with false claims. And even if he did support communism(which he did not) what is your problem with communism?? The problem with communism/socialism is that all of the leaders so far have been greedy and corrupt (save Castro who did his best given the situation.) You have much to learn typhus.

Idiot, idiot, idiot, how I love to be called an idiot.
Listen, John Lennon's social views were the antithesis of what makes good art. Have you ever created anything? A song, a poem, a story? Anything like that? All art, all great art, springs from pain and anger and hatred. Ugliness gives birth to beauty. War and corruption are the greatest friends an artist can have. They can turn a little painting into a stunning social satire, they can transform an idealistic ditty into an anthem.
John Lennon wanted to remove this motivation, like all Utopians, he wanted fairness, he wanted peace. Peace! Can you imagine a more stunted, grey world than one at peace?

Every time a singer or any other artist drones on about somehow ridding the world of all the 'bad' ideas, they are unwittingly wishing death upon their own creativity.

True liberalism is expressed in appreciating the world for what it is, loving the world even in its ugliest moments. Show me a man who wants to change the world and I'll show you a man who holds the will of the individual in scant regard.

Lenon was a fascist, in spirit at least. Because his protestations for peace were, in actual fact, an attempt to control the will of others and an attempt to coerce his fans into embracing his Utopian world view. And only an idiot would be suckered in by such an obvious huckster and charlatan.

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#39

Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:28 PM

As a musician, he's okay. Outside of what everybody knows him for, I could care less. Eh. The Beatles are better as a whole, not when you try to scrutinize each individual member.

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#40

Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:00 AM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Wednesday, Apr 18 2012, 19:39)
QUOTE (ShaneHunter @ Monday, Apr 16 2012, 18:00)
typhus you are an idiot, Lennon didn't like religion and his reason was simple: religion caused and still causes war as well as being about money. In Imagine he was trying to show us verbally what a world without religion(therefore war) and greed(therefore hunger) would be like. He did not lean towards communism you idiot, he had claimed on many occasions that he disliked what communist countries were doing. Watch his Dick Cavett interview and research some more before you open your mouth with false claims. And even if he did support communism(which he did not) what is your problem with communism?? The problem with communism/socialism is that all of the leaders so far have been greedy and corrupt (save Castro who did his best given the situation.) You have much to learn typhus.

Idiot, idiot, idiot, how I love to be called an idiot.
Listen, John Lennon's social views were the antithesis of what makes good art. Have you ever created anything? A song, a poem, a story? Anything like that? All art, all great art, springs from pain and anger and hatred. Ugliness gives birth to beauty. War and corruption are the greatest friends an artist can have. They can turn a little painting into a stunning social satire, they can transform an idealistic ditty into an anthem.
John Lennon wanted to remove this motivation, like all Utopians, he wanted fairness, he wanted peace. Peace! Can you imagine a more stunted, grey world than one at peace?

Every time a singer or any other artist drones on about somehow ridding the world of all the 'bad' ideas, they are unwittingly wishing death upon their own creativity.

True liberalism is expressed in appreciating the world for what it is, loving the world even in its ugliest moments. Show me a man who wants to change the world and I'll show you a man who holds the will of the individual in scant regard.

Lenon was a fascist, in spirit at least. Because his protestations for peace were, in actual fact, an attempt to control the will of others and an attempt to coerce his fans into embracing his Utopian world view. And only an idiot would be suckered in by such an obvious huckster and charlatan.

What you stated about artists is true but it doesn't matter because his utopia was something that any decent human would want, world peace and equality. Who gives a damn about artists continuing to create art if we can have peace and equality, you are quite the fascist yourself typhus.

You sound like you'd prefer a world where greed and war rules to that of one where peace, equality and love rules. There is something wrong with your philosophy there Typhus. Everything about you is off except for your views on art and The Dark Knight.

Slamman
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#41

Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:47 AM

Speaking of Utopia, Been enjoying Todd Rundgren this evening, perfect name for a band, and a man who isn't revered as Lennon is, but he's done much in his career in music
The album title "The Ever Popular Tortured Artist Effect" rings true, I sensed it at the time I first heard it, and it is rather true in a great many cases, actually.

I think this thread will never get a unified answer, but people do tend to shun what's popular, at least, well, it's hard to say when and where they might all jump off the collective cliff together! haha

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#42

Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:28 AM

No, I don't think so. Like him or not, you can't deny the massive influence he had.

El_Diablo
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#43

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:57 PM

I don't deny his influence.

I'm saying that his influence is overrated tounge2.gif

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#44

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:31 PM

Well...

From a personal perspective, Im inclined to agree.

Maybe its just a musical taste thing... but I just cant get into any of his solo stuff. The songs are not bad by any means... theyre just 'meh' to me. And the fact that some people praise his work so much just turns me off even further.

I do prefer the slightly different sounding songs from the Beatles (Helter Skelter, Maxwell's Silver Hammer, Taxman etc.). You know, songs that broke musical barriers or just provided some clever commentary or a cool story. I do think thats its nearly impossible to hate the Beatles. They pretty much made something for everybody.

Slamman
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#45

Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:06 AM Edited by Slamman, 22 April 2012 - 04:26 AM.

The offbeat humor is part of John Lennon's character, but also, I'd say someone I respect a lot is Ringo, aka Richard Starkey, the fact his son plays in the WHO is fantastic!

Song on here; Gimme Some Truth is the basis of the comic piece 'Tragical' (SIC) Misery Tour I seem to recall, posted it in musical comedy thread we used to have going here, and you also have Jealous Guy that the Black Crowes cover so well


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#46

Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:23 AM

I don't think John Lennon is overrated, hardly ever heard people in Australia say 'He was a god yada yada'.

Tupac is overrated, John Lennon is not.

Slamman
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#47

Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:48 AM Edited by Slamman, 22 April 2012 - 05:47 AM.

Where's Yoko Ono in this performance? I didn't spot her yet. I do think the issue of Yoko is even more distressing, that she's somehow a horrible person by her coupling with John.
They both appreciated art and music, and saw kindred souls in each other

National Lampoon's MMT...


I'm watching this stuff for the first time, the links to Lennon I didn't have vested interest in, but since we're making this a current discussion, check this interview at the 47 minute mark, John talks about his reverence from fans, VERY INTERESTING and it directly answers the point of this topic. He can't make sense of it either!!


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#48

Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:33 PM

The Beatles were supposedly ahead of their time when it came to their music. I didn't live during that time, but I've read in a history textbook that they brought innovation to the music industry. I guess they didn't stick to the mainstream conformity that was taking place, and that made them stand out.

I'll give you a modern example. Take the hip-hop collective called Odd Future Wolf Gang Kill Them All. Odd Future isn't what you'd usually expect in hip hop. Yes, I think their music is overrated, but the group's general personality is what makes them stand out. They're not afraid to do stupid sh*t out in public. I can easily see any of the group members comfortably go out in public with nothing but underpants on. Honestly, I only like a few of the group's songs, but it's the members' personalities that intrigue me the most. There are videos on YouTube of them acting completely wild and unrestrained. They visibly show that they don't care if a bunch of people see them act the way they do.

Here's a YouTube video for you to see what I mean:


Many musicians are often more known for their personalities, not their music. I believe that John Lennon's personality was what made him this famous, not his music. There are people out there who only know him as the guy who sang "Imagine" or the guy who was part of the Beatles. If you were to ask me to name all the John Lennon songs I know, "Imagine" would be the first and only one I would state. I also know that he was pretty much a hippie who wanted world peace and that he was assassinated by some guy who apparently had an interest in The Catcher in the Rye. However, I don't know much about him other than that.

Slamman
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#49

Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:32 AM Edited by Slamman, 28 April 2012 - 12:45 AM.

Well, it's safe to say his son isn't
Sounded a lot like him on this hit, which is still Funky Fresh!



On the somber sobering side, I like how Ringo says here about the musicians "up there" jamming, whether you believe in Heaven or God, the idea that you're free from the Earthy pains and find your ultimate enjoyment if you've passed on in the normal fashion (my faith frowns on suicide as I mentioned, you can't decide when to die)

The idea that one of the best bands on some astral plane has all the great artists that have left us, Let's hope as music lovers, that could be true in some regard


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#50

Posted 28 April 2012 - 01:01 AM

I wasn't around to do that thing people do where they remember where they were when JFK was shot. I sure can remember the morning of when Lennon was shot though. I was getting a ride to school by my friend's mother and it was the first thing heard on the radio the second the car was turned on. We were like 'no way'.












Oddly enough, hearing the death of Elvis on the radio also really sticks out as a 'where were you when' moment.

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#51

Posted 28 April 2012 - 02:11 AM Edited by Slamman, 28 April 2012 - 02:27 AM.

I remember the outcry reporting (I mean the massive vigils upon news of his death) , I was at my folks home at that time, I can't recall any specifics, I was traveling and away from home with friends of the family when President Reagan's attempted assassination was reported on TV, as I recall from my memory, that was fresh at the time


On George Harrison's death, Ringo refers to the interview I put above:


When I watched the WHO documentary about the band losing two members I was pretty much crying too, it was so emotionally told, these people who shape our lives that we never ever met. You feel for the basic human connection severed

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#52

Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:03 PM

Yes.

That is all folks.




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