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Piracy- Games, music and films

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#91

Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:52 AM

Cyberspace is borderless. There is no way to monitor the activity. The law in one country may differ in another. What may be wrong in one country, may be okay in another.

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#92

Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:16 AM

I used to pirate, and I still might be a pirate, but it's definitely not right. Someone decides to create something, and they want to share their creation, but you have to agree with their terms before seeing/using their creation. Even though I very often disagree with these terms they are still the creator's terms, and they protect the person's creation.

I pirate(d) because I cannot function under many of the terms set by the creators without spending hundreds of dollars a year on things my dad taught me could be free, and easy to get a-hold of. The system that protects these terms have become an evil organization that sees consumers as talking heads full of money, and they push the consumers to the point where they get close enough to the heads to destroy them and take the money.

However, by using their services, I am agreeing to those terms. I must read them carefully.

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#93

Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:34 AM Edited by Piperka, 13 April 2012 - 08:56 AM.

I think somebody else stated this before, but if people stopped pirating, they STILL wouldn't buy the product. Pirating in a way produces marketing and acknowledgement of the product. People pirate stuff they wouldn't go and buy.

Edit: The only game I've ever pirated is San Andreas on PC. But I've paid for the Xbox version, and the Playstation 2 version twice, (first disc got f*cked up, bought it again) so I surely wasn't gonna pay another $29.95 just to experience SA-MP when I already have it on Xbox and PS2. I'm mainly a console gamer, so I buy my games. I don't really listen to songs that much, so when I do I just Youtube them. As for movies, I watch them when they're in the cinema's, but for a DVD I wouldn't pay $30 for a movie when I can either download it for free or rent it for $2 where the creators don't make any money anyway.

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#94

Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:48 AM

QUOTE (Piperka @ Friday, Apr 13 2012, 01:34)
People pirate stuff they wouldn't go and buy.

I don't really think that's true...

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#95

Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

If you think about it, everything we download is just bits and bytes of data, and we pay our Internet Service Providers for access to this data on the internet, therefore the people downloading all these bits of data shouldn't be penalized because they have authorization to download anything because they pay their ISP's to do so. So it's more of the up-loaders fault.

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#96

Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:58 AM

It's not about artists or corporations losing sales that makes it morally wrong or right though, at least not entirely. It's about you getting something, that requires money to access, for free. It's like sneaking into a zoo or something. Hell, the zoo's 50 to get in so you'd never pay that, so therefore it isn't wrong for you to sneak around the payment to see all those dope critters? You aren't taking anything away from anyone, technically, but few would argue that it's acceptable.

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#97

Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:26 PM Edited by ThaBoY, 14 April 2012 - 10:47 AM.

Nvm

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#98

Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Piperka @ Friday, Apr 13 2012, 02:16)
So it's more of the up-loaders fault.

lol I don't think that's true either...

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#99

Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:12 AM

Thaboy, please get your facts straight. You are wrong. The population of the word is a little over 7 billion. When you say billions you are implying more than 1 billion. Therefore 2 billion copies or more were sold. Which is more than CoD games.


Houser didn't earn his money just from GTA San Andreas. He earned from over 15 games.


http://en.wikipedia...._Rockstar_games

Regarding what you wrote about the uploaders fault:

It's not there fault. That just like buying a gun then kill civilians then blaming it on the guy who sold it you.





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#100

Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:42 AM Edited by ThaBoY, 14 April 2012 - 10:48 AM.

Nvm

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#101

Posted 14 April 2012 - 01:30 AM

Are you retarded? Have you read anything I wrote.

I didn't say the game sold 1 billion or 2. What I wrote is that it didn't even reach a billion. And if you say billions that means it is more than 1 billion. Which is not true because the population of the world is 7 billion.


Who told the makers of the content to put it at a high price.

Who told the person to create the ripping software in the first place.


At the end of the day it all comes down upon the law and the moral of the person pirating.

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#102

Posted 14 April 2012 - 01:50 AM

QUOTE (vertical limit @ Friday, Apr 13 2012, 19:12)
Thaboy, please get your facts straight. You are wrong. The population of the word is a little over 7 billion. When you say billions you are implying more than 1 billion. Therefore 2 billion copies or more were sold. Which is more than CoD games.


Houser didn't earn his money just from GTA San Andreas. He earned from over 15 games.


http://en.wikipedia...._Rockstar_games

Regarding what you wrote about the uploaders fault:

It's not there fault. That just like buying a gun then kill civilians then blaming it on the guy who sold it you.

I agree with you VL, but you forgot to attack the part of his argument in which he basically says it's ok to pirate because the money goes to Dan Houser's mansion. That couldn't be further from the truth thaboy. Sure, do sales from these games help make the Housers both rich men? Absolutely. But it goes to the company coffers. It pays for benefits for the employees. It pays for office supplies. It pays the salaries of the employees who worked on it. The office gofers who caffeinated the devs. And you know what, even if it did just go to "his 12 million dollar mansion" who are you to say that that justifies stealing a game his company made? It's just plain stupid.

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#103

Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:19 AM Edited by ThaBoY, 14 April 2012 - 02:29 AM.

@Vertical Limit

QUOTE
Regarding what you wrote about the uploaders fault:

It's not there fault.


If it's not their fault, then you say copying a game isn't wrong.

QUOTE
Therefore 2 billion copies or more were sold.


Yes, you said that.

@Irviding

I don't see how it's stealing.
Call me a retard if you want, but how can it be stealing.
I didn't went to the shop and stole the DVD.
Someone else copied the DVD he bought and uploaded it.
So, IMO, if you download it you didn't steal anything.
You use the copy of the game he bought.
He made the copy himself and chose to share it by uploading it somewhere.
It's against the law to do that, so he's in fault.

Why did they shut megaupload down?
Because people uploaded copied games, movies, etc. there.
So who should be punished?
The people who copy games and upload them or the people who try to enjoy games they wouldn't buy otherwise?

vertical limit
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#104

Posted 14 April 2012 - 03:11 AM

Are you f*cking retarded, seriously?

You take it out of context. It's not my fault you don't get it. And even if I did say they sold 2 billion copies. Are you that easy to be trolled/fooled/lied to?


You said billions. See the letter underlined, that means it is plural. Thus 2 billion copies or more have been sold. Which never happened before.


You still don't get it.


If it is OK to pirate/download stuff that you did not rip/upload. Then why are people in The USA getting notices and warning. You can see it commented on certain files. I remember a certain country that sends you 3 warning then you are taken to jail or court. I think it's France.


There is no way to control who gives x to who. Once someone buys something, it is upto them to do what they want with it.


X= anything that costs money that is can be converted or is already a digital file. Such as movies and music.


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#105

Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:26 AM

Can we keep the profanity to a minimum? I know it's frustrating debating with someone whose quite clearly struggling to grasp even the fundamental basics of the arguments from all sides and insists on using statistics so obviously and absurdly false as to be laughable, but persevere.

ThaBoy- please structure your arguments better.

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#106

Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:54 AM

@sivispacem

Sorry, I 'll try blush.gif

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#107

Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:51 PM

Yes it was indeed France.

http://www.nytimes.c...9iht-CACHE.html

And as you can see, it only made things worse. Piracy increased after the legislation has passed.

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#108

Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:19 PM

Only games I have ever pirated or will pirate are those I already own( where the disc is damaged, missing or other ) or to check if my pc runs it.

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#109

Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:51 PM

But that doesn't make it right, does it?

I know I seem like I am doing both sides, but at the end of the day it all comes down to what you think.
I personally will keep downloading given that I have Internet Connection and space on the computer.

Yes I am a Pro-Pirate

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#110

Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:30 AM

QUOTE (vertical limit @ Monday, Apr 23 2012, 16:51)
But that doesn't make it right, does it?

I know I seem like I am doing both sides, but at the end of the day it all comes down to what you think.
I personally will keep downloading given that I have Internet Connection and space on the computer.

Yes I am a Pro-Pirate

As long as you recognize that it's stealing and therefore wrong, and don't try to pull some bullsh*t phantom story out your ass about how it's ok, then you go right ahead.

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#111

Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:54 AM

I don't think it should be illegal; I'm a bit skeptical of the whole "intellectual property" thing to begin with. It boils down to whether IP is truly property or not for it to be considered stealing (and thus immoral). Since I'm not inclined to believe IP is comparable to physical property, it shouldn't be against the law to pirate something.

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#112

Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:14 AM

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Monday, Apr 23 2012, 23:54)
I don't think it should be illegal; I'm a bit skeptical of the whole "intellectual property" thing to begin with. It boils down to whether IP is truly property or not for it to be considered stealing (and thus immoral). Since I'm not inclined to believe IP is comparable to physical property, it shouldn't be against the law to pirate something.

That dosn't make any sense. If I made a video game, it's my property. Even if it's not physical I should be able to sell it and expect people not to steal it.

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#113

Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:23 AM

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Monday, Apr 23 2012, 21:54)
I don't think it should be illegal; I'm a bit skeptical of the whole "intellectual property" thing to begin with. It boils down to whether IP is truly property or not for it to be considered stealing (and thus immoral). Since I'm not inclined to believe IP is comparable to physical property, it shouldn't be against the law to pirate something.

Could you elaborate a bit on that? If you recognize it's like physical peppery why is it ok to pirate?

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#114

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:50 PM

Irviding, I personally don't give 2 sh*ts whether it is thievery or not. If they block the site, I guarantee you that I won't buy it.

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#115

Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:15 PM Edited by Street Mix, 25 April 2012 - 04:18 PM.

QUOTE
As long as you recognize that it's stealing and therefore wrong

Why're you keep repeating completely wrong things? Copying IS NOT stealing. Illegal or not - depends on laws.

Stealing is removing some object.
Explain me what am I removing by COPYING stuff? eh? Original owner still has game/movie on his PC.

If I would hack into someone's PC, copy his unpublished music/game with source code/movie and would publish it under my name like I did it - that's pure stealing, I agree.

But if you think that copying from torrent is stealing then renting games and buying second hand is also stealing. If you say A then say B, otherwise you're a hypocrite.
Why there're no laws against renting/second hand? I dunno. Ask your government.

P.S. To pirate = to make and sell copies of software without permission from license owner and make profit from it.

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#116

Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:54 PM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Wednesday, Apr 25 2012, 17:15)
QUOTE
As long as you recognize that it's stealing and therefore wrong

Why're you keep repeating completely wrong things? Copying IS NOT stealing. Illegal or not - depends on laws.

I'm sorry, but piracy is equivalent in this sense to the theft of proprietary information from, say a company. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the statement that it is theft.

The legal owner of the software is not the end user, it's the publisher.

If a company holds a database on, say, it's subscription members, they are the legal owners of that information. If someone was to break into their network and steal that data, for whatever purpose, it's theft. Now, that data is unlikely to have actually been "stolen" in the conventional sense, because it is probably still there. It's the fact that it is removed from it's rightful owner in the first place (regardless of whether they loose their own "copy" of it) which makes it theft. And, yes, it is considered theft in those circumstances.

So, tell me, exactly how is that different from piracy in this case? In both examples, data that is legally owned by one entity is taken from that entity without their permission for the purposes of distribution. How can it be theft under one circumstance, and not under another? Please explain that. Because, if you can't, then according to your logic commercial espionage is not actually theft, whereas it is regarded as such in law by not only just about every nation state on the planet, but by the international patents and copyright system.

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#117

Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:42 PM

Taking IP without permission is stealing, period. End of sentence.

A lot of the work I do is done because IP is protected and if it's not protected then that threatens my lively hood. If we alloy people to take IP without repercussion, the effects on our society will be horrible. What would be the point in patenting new technology if some one else can just take it and make money off of your hard work leaving you empty handed?

And that's just my personal perspective, sivispacem is correct that it is illegal in most nations regardless of what ever opinions we have here.

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#118

Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:38 PM Edited by Street Mix, 25 April 2012 - 08:50 PM.

I always agreed that copying new games and movies for free is wrong (and immoral if you enjoy the product) but I never used wrong words for that.
QUOTE
Taking IP without permission is stealing, period. End of sentence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealing
http://en.wikipedia....ht_infringement
QUOTE
Copyright infringement is often associated with the terms piracy and theft. Although piracy connotes brazen high-seas robbery and kidnapping, it has a long history of use as a synonym for certain acts which were later codified as types of copyright infringement. Theft is more strongly hyperbolic, emphasizing or exaggerating the perceived harm of infringement to copyright holders who choose to utilize their copyrights for profit; it connotes a kind of loss which infringement may not actually effect, and the U.S. Supreme Court has even ruled that infringement does not "easily" equate with theft.

End of sentence.

P.S. Another ridiculous example:
If I copy Botanicula for free from torrent than I'm a criminal who should be imprisoned for 4 years.
But if I pay 1 cent for Botanicula humble bundle than I'm a legitimate law abiding owner of PC & Mac versions + soundtrack.
Right?

Nice hypocritical laws you have there...So think before bringing your black/white law here.

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#119

Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:20 PM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Wednesday, Apr 25 2012, 21:38)
QUOTE
Copyright infringement is often associated with the terms piracy and theft. Although piracy connotes brazen high-seas robbery and kidnapping, it has a long history of use as a synonym for certain acts which were later codified as types of copyright infringement. Theft is more strongly hyperbolic, emphasizing or exaggerating the perceived harm of infringement to copyright holders who choose to utilize their copyrights for profit; it connotes a kind of loss which infringement may not actually effect, and the U.S. Supreme Court has even ruled that infringement does not "easily" equate with theft.

End of sentence.

P.S. Another ridiculous example:
If I copy Botanicula for free from torrent than I'm a criminal who should be imprisoned for 4 years.
But if I pay 1 cent for Botanicula humble bundle than I'm a legitimate law abiding owner of PC & Mac versions + soundtrack.
Right?

Your missing the point, though. Copyright infringement itself may not be seen as theft- as this comment mentions- though that does vary with regards to jurisdictional- but breach of copyright and theft of intellectual property are different things (though copyright infringement relates to intellectual property, it isn't the theft of it directly). By downloading or purchasing pirated materials such as games or music, you aren't in itself stealing intellectual property- that's the act that the original perpetrator who took the product and made it freely available without the express permission of the copyright holders. They're the hacker who stole the data in my example (which I handily see you did not mention). Instead, you're breaking the copyright (that is, obtaining the product outside of the terms with which the publisher publishes the product) but you could also be deemed to be guilty of conspiracy in the original theft (as without the drive from the end user to receive illegally pirated material, the theft would not take place).

Think of it this way. If you pirate the copy and make it available, you're the thief. If you download the illegal copy and use it, then it's akin to handing or receiving stolen goods, which is a separate crime in most nations. Though it could also be conspiracy to commit theft as your activities could be seen as a a motivation behind the piracy (demand resulting in supply, as it were).

In relation to your second example, your example is flawed on two counts. The terms and conditions that you effectively sign by paying the 1 cent are agreed by the game's publisher. You've done nothing wrong as the sum of money you pay is entirely irrelevant- it's the consent implied by the act of purchasing which separates legal from illegal. Secondly, as an end user, you are not strictly speaking an "owner". You own the right to use that software within the bounds of it's copyright agreement, but you are breaching copyright if you use it for a purpose that is expressly forbidden in that agreement. The owner of the intellectual property is still publisher.

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#120

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:21 PM

sivispacem, well stated.

Street Mix,
QUOTE
I always agreed that copying new games and movies for free is wrong (and immoral if you enjoy the product) but I never used wrong words for that.
QUOTE
Taking IP without permission is stealing, period. End of sentence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealing
http://en.wikipedia....ht_infringement
QUOTE
Copyright infringement is often associated with the terms piracy and theft. Although piracy connotes brazen high-seas robbery and kidnapping, it has a long history of use as a synonym for certain acts which were later codified as types of copyright infringement. Theft is more strongly hyperbolic, emphasizing or exaggerating the perceived harm of infringement to copyright holders who choose to utilize their copyrights for profit; it connotes a kind of loss which infringement may not actually effect, and the U.S. Supreme Court has even ruled that infringement does not "easily" equate with theft.

End of sentence.


I have now updated Wikipedia to say what ever I want..... Prob shouldn't use Wikipedia as a legit source.

When I said taking IP without permission is stealing, I meant that. If I hold a patent and some company infringes on my patent, they are breaking the law. In this case, they are taking my technology and using it when I have legal ownership of the said IP.




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