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Piracy- Games, music and films

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Irviding
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#61

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE (SmC12 @ Wednesday, Mar 14 2012, 12:32)
Well in a way it's just like buying second hand. If the company is no longer producing the product then your only option is to get it from someone else if it's not for sale. Pirating is getting it from someone else -a duplicate though, but it's still being shared- , so I don't see it being a problem.

I do. You can't bend the law to circumstances like that. It has to be clear cut - either it's piracy or it isn't. The only possible way you could do something like that would be to say that after 15? years a game is now in the public domain, but that's something that the companies would never go for. What if in my state of NY there are no GTA VC for sale, but in Michigan they have some for sale? Can I argue that I should pirate it since I cant' reasonably get to Michigan to get the game? It's just too sticky of a scenario.

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#62

Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:59 AM

sivispacem, can you give me an example of a modern game that's actually of worth to you? The market seems to accept the current quality of the games, with game companies making more profits and selling more games than ever before. Even stores like Gamestop/EB Games are clearly ripping off consumers, yet they are becoming bigger than ever before.

About piracy, when you yourself are the one developing a software and are trying to make a buck out of it but someone else cracked it and host it for free, does it bother you? Even if you are still at least making some profit, in your head you know that there are many out there who managed to find a way to not pay for your software and download it for free. Piracy may be perceived as a small problem for some, but to a person making a living off writing code, even one person downloading it for free hurts psychologically.

About games that are no longer in production, it should be fine to pirate those. By that time, the developers might no longer exist and may be pursue any legal actions against anyone pirating the game.

El_Diablo
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#63

Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:54 PM

piracy will never end as long as it's so easy to do.

it's that simple.
no corporation or government has the time/money/resources to go around prosecuting every single person who illegally downloads something.

and if you can't deter it, you can't stop it.
people love free sh*t.

Street Mix
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#64

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:09 AM Edited by Street Mix, 17 March 2012 - 08:47 AM.

If publisher/developer don't bother anymore why should you? Big corporation won't go bankrupt because you haven't bought Test Drive 4 or NFS 3.

Irviding
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#65

Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Saturday, Mar 17 2012, 03:09)
If publisher/developer don't bother anymore why should you? Big corporation won't go bankrupt because you haven't bought Test Drive 4 or NFS 3.

Best Buy won't go bankrupt if I go and steal all their games and money from the store near me. Does that make it right?

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#66

Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:31 AM

You can't make an argument for piracy. If everybody did it then there would be no movie/music/games industry because no money would be made. You need people to purchase it legally, so there's no justifying piracy.

By obtaining these things illegally, you are not stealing from a corporation, you're stealing from the people who made it. The corporations only pay them. If nobody is buying their stuff then the corporations wont pay them. Instead they'll pay for the stuff that always sells. That's your Call Of Duty, Transformers sequel, and whatever garbage the masses listen to.

I recall Noel Gallagher saying that there's absolutely no money in producing music. You have to tour to make money. Surely piracy has had a hand in that.

El_Diablo
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#67

Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:04 AM

QUOTE (John The Grudge @ Tuesday, Mar 20 2012, 02:31)
You can't make an argument for piracy.

people will always love getting free stuff especially if it's easy and there's virtually no chance of being caught/prosecuted.

bam!
I win.

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#68

Posted 20 March 2012 - 04:37 PM

QUOTE (El_Diablo @ Tuesday, Mar 20 2012, 05:04)
QUOTE (John The Grudge @ Tuesday, Mar 20 2012, 02:31)
You can't make an argument for piracy.

people will always love getting free stuff especially if it's easy and there's virtually no chance of being caught/prosecuted.

bam!
I win.

I think he meant a justification rather than a reason piracy exists, which is what you've just provided.

bam!
You're a retard.

Street Mix
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#69

Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:41 PM Edited by Street Mix, 20 March 2012 - 05:59 PM.

QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, Mar 17 2012, 16:47)
QUOTE (Street Mix @ Saturday, Mar 17 2012, 03:09)
If publisher/developer don't bother anymore why should you? Big corporation won't go bankrupt because you haven't bought Test Drive 4 or NFS 3.

Best Buy won't go bankrupt if I go and steal all their games and money from the store near me. Does that make it right?

Comparisons like this are amazing and...wrong. Were're talking about digital stuff, not material and about 14-20 year old games, not games from last autumn.
Plus I didn't know that stealing stuff from Best Buy is the same piece of cake as downloading a song. ph34r.gif

If the game isn't available for sale anywhere - neither at online stores nor at PC digital stores / PSN - that means publisher doesn't care anymore about it and lives perfectly without sales from it.

Irviding
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#70

Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

You decide it doesn't matter anymore? Like I said the only legal way to do that is by putting things over 15 years or whatever in the public domain. Which itself is a ridiculous notion

El_Diablo
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#71

Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:24 PM

QUOTE (*MURDOC* @ Tuesday, Mar 20 2012, 09:37)
I think he meant a justification rather than a reason piracy exists, which is what you've just provided.

bam!
You're a retard.

tomato tomato.
you're arguing semantics.

of course there's no justification for piracy. it's illegal.
hello?

what he said is that you can't make an argument for piracy. he's right and wrong. maybe he implied that you can't argue for piracy from an ethical stance.
but you can certainly argue for piracy from a practical stance: it's free and easy to do. that is arguably why people decide to commit piracy.

bam!
it's also pretty funny how much I'm getting under your skin lately... you're easily upset at anonymous people on the internet with whom you have petty disagreements.
this amuses me. I look forward to your replies.

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#72

Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:56 PM

I'm not upset that you're an idiot, if anyone should be upset about that, it's you. wink.gif

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#73

Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:48 AM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Tuesday, Mar 20 2012, 11:41)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, Mar 17 2012, 16:47)
QUOTE (Street Mix @ Saturday, Mar 17 2012, 03:09)
If publisher/developer don't bother anymore why should you? Big corporation won't go bankrupt because you haven't bought Test Drive 4 or NFS 3.

Best Buy won't go bankrupt if I go and steal all their games and money from the store near me. Does that make it right?

Comparisons like this are amazing and...wrong. Were're talking about digital stuff, not material and about 14-20 year old games, not games from last autumn.
Plus I didn't know that stealing stuff from Best Buy is the same piece of cake as downloading a song. ph34r.gif

If the game isn't available for sale anywhere - neither at online stores nor at PC digital stores / PSN - that means publisher doesn't care anymore about it and lives perfectly without sales from it.

Statements like this are amazing and...wrong.

You can't distinguish between objects that you can physically touch and objects you can't. NEW games come out digitally...so does music. How it is delivered to you has f*ck all to do with ownership. You don't own it. You also can't distinguish somethings value by how old it is. I have a 40 year old .22 rifle in my garage that I don't care about. That doesn't mean it's OK for someone to waltz into my garage and take it.

Don't be stupid, kid. Stealing is stealing. It's beyond me how some peoples' moral compass gets so f*cked up that they try to justify what they are doing with trivial sh*t like "it isn't material and its 14-20 years old". If you are going to pirate games/music at least be a man about it and admit it instead of deceiving yourself into thinking what you are doing is OK.

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#74

Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:13 AM

QUOTE (*MURDOC* @ Tuesday, Mar 20 2012, 15:56)
I'm not upset that you're an idiot, if anyone should be upset about that, it's you. wink.gif

so you'd rather call names than defend your points?

sweet, easy win for me.

Street Mix
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#75

Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:59 PM Edited by Street Mix, 21 March 2012 - 01:11 PM.

QUOTE
It's beyond me how some peoples' moral compass gets so f*cked up that they try to justify what they are doing with trivial sh*t like "it isn't material and its 14-20 years old".

I'm not justifying anything. I'm saying that sometimes getting stuff for free is the only way to get it. It's not legal (in some countries) but who really cares? Only copyright law-abiding hamsters. What damage it'll do to EA etc.?

If company still cares about selling their old stuff - they put it on GOG (or other service) or as HD remake. In this case not buying good old game, updated for modern systems, with goodies for only $6-10 (on sale worldwide) is really not OK.

Out of interest - if I find some legit 12-year old copy and buy it for ~$5, how much money will publisher get? $50c? Or 0?. If he gets 0, would it be stealing from my side?

QUOTE
I think it should, I mean if a developer does not sell it anymore, it should be availible to download from somewhere else.

Of course, saving art, games, music, films for the future is much more important than rights of big corporations, which got enough money from that game, movie.

Irviding
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#76

Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:04 PM

No it wouldn't steal it because you'd be buying it honestly and legally. It's still illegal and it's still immoral; you are stealing end of story. It doesn't matter how little it hurts the company. I can crumple a receipt up and throw it out my car window; it won't hurt the environment, but it's still littering and still illegal.

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#77

Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Mar 21 2012, 13:04)
It's still illegal and it's still immoral

That would depend upon the moral code of the person. To you it might be immoral, but to someone else, they might not see any moral issues.

wink.gif

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#78

Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:08 PM

QUOTE (Icarus @ Wednesday, Mar 21 2012, 16:50)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Mar 21 2012, 13:04)
It's still illegal and it's still immoral

That would depend upon the moral code of the person. To you it might be immoral, but to someone else, they might not see any moral issues.

wink.gif

I would go a bit further and say that it's not ilegal to do this in every Country.

Street Mix
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#79

Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:58 PM

Boom! Everything is black and white.
Buying 10-year old game from store - legal and OK but publisher gets nothing.
Buying second hand isn't illegal and immoral. Publisher gets nothing.
But downloading game from torrent is equal to murder one, downloader should be shot on site blah blah etc. Publisher gets nothing.

AMAZING.

Sometimes you need to stop following laws blindly, take off your black-white glasses and turn on your common sense.
There're a lot of outdated "stupid" laws from 19th century. Do ya obey them too?

Or you just wanna get a job at MPAA/RIAA so you have to say "right" things?

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#80

Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:00 AM

I think there are good arguments on both sides. There seem to be alot of points that can be considered valid and just from multiple angles. I like to see what it looks like when you take an idea to an extreme. If everybody got their music, tv, movies, games, ect. for free then the people who make these products will not make any money in order to pay for future products. Then no more new entertainment. I don't want that so it is easier to just do it the legal way so we can still enjoy these things in the future.

Another part of me says f*ck it. Most of the stuff they put out today is garbage and if we all steal it they will stop making it because it is dumbing us down. Both parts of me are valid. Maybe even another part that I have yet to discover.

Shylock
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#81

Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:59 AM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Wednesday, Mar 21 2012, 17:58)
Boom! Everything is black and white.
Buying 10-year old game from store - legal and OK but publisher gets nothing.
Buying second hand isn't illegal and immoral. Publisher gets nothing.
But downloading game from torrent is equal to murder one, downloader should be shot on site blah blah etc. Publisher gets nothing.

AMAZING.

Sometimes you need to stop following laws blindly, take off your black-white glasses and turn on your common sense.
There're a lot of outdated "stupid" laws from 19th century. Do ya obey them too?

Except you are missing the point. You BUY it from the store. Accepting ownership. You BUY it used. Accepting ownership. You download it for free off the internet. No ownership. Which is commonly referred to as theft.

And the age of a product doesn't matter. Where do you draw the line? Ten years? Five? One? Common sense tells you that if it isn't yours you shouldn't take it. Common sense tells you that stealing MW3 and stealing Goldeneye are the same thing. Common sense tells you that the format of how you receive it doesn't matter. Unfortunately you don't seem to have any common sense.

If you, or anyone else, finds it acceptable to steal whatever it is you are downloading I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it. But don't pussy foot around saying it's a gray area and for people to stop looking at the law as "black and white". Because the law, common sense, the 10 Commandments and hopefully even your mother all tell you the same thing. Don't steal.

How you try and spin your bullsh*t is irrelevant, but at the same time frighteningly amusing. If you are wanting someone to say "Yes, the game you are stealing is 10 years old, the publisher doesn't even sell it anymore and apparently doesn't care if you have it. What you are doing is OK." then just accept that. But stop dumping 3 feet of sh*t in this topic with your specific "example" of why piracy of a product that isn't even produced anymore is OK. No one here is stupid enough to think that you limit your stealing to only products not for legitimate sale anymore. suicidal.gif

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#82

Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:18 AM

QUOTE (Icarus @ Wednesday, Mar 21 2012, 14:50)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Mar 21 2012, 13:04)
It's still illegal and it's still immoral

That would depend upon the moral code of the person. To you it might be immoral, but to someone else, they might not see any moral issues.

wink.gif

But it's still illegal. And regardless I dint know of many people who don't find stealing to be immoral.

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#83

Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:34 AM Edited by Street Mix, 22 March 2012 - 08:40 AM.

QUOTE
Except you are missing the point. You BUY it from the store. Accepting ownership. You BUY it used. Accepting ownership. You download it for free off the internet. No ownership. Which is commonly referred to as theft.

So people in Ukraine, Indonesia, Russia, Thailand are accepting ownership when they buy pirate copies from stores? You know PS1 and X360 pirate copies look legit especially for those who can't distinguish pirate copy from original.

Accepting ownership or licensing is paying amount of money artist/publisher/developer/company wants from you right now. Today it's $50, tomorrow it's $20 on sale etc. You paid - you "licensed" your copy. Especially in our digital times when nobody gives a damn about discs anymore.
If it's available for free like most underground music or Portal 1 was for a limited time or GTA 1,2 PC then you're accepting ownership very legally too by simply downloading it.

QUOTE
You BUY it used. Accepting ownership.

Now that is bulls**t. You only own shiny DVD box with it, you don't own license for it. Pre-owned = downloading from torrent. Second hand buyers invest the same amount in games industry as torrenters - 0.

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#84

Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:08 PM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Thursday, Mar 22 2012, 02:34)
QUOTE
Except you are missing the point. You BUY it from the store. Accepting ownership. You BUY it used. Accepting ownership. You download it for free off the internet. No ownership. Which is commonly referred to as theft.

So people in Ukraine, Indonesia, Russia, Thailand are accepting ownership when they buy pirate copies from stores? You know PS1 and X360 pirate copies look legit especially for those who can't distinguish pirate copy from original.

Accepting ownership or licensing is paying amount of money artist/publisher/developer/company wants from you right now. Today it's $50, tomorrow it's $20 on sale etc. You paid - you "licensed" your copy. Especially in our digital times when nobody gives a damn about discs anymore.
If it's available for free like most underground music or Portal 1 was for a limited time or GTA 1,2 PC then you're accepting ownership very legally too by simply downloading it.

QUOTE
You BUY it used. Accepting ownership.

Now that is bulls**t. You only own shiny DVD box with it, you don't own license for it. Pre-owned = downloading from torrent. Second hand buyers invest the same amount in games industry as torrenters - 0.

I bolded the key word that makes what you said completely different (and wrong) from buying a legitimate copy...

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#85

Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:19 PM

QUOTE

If it's available for free like most underground music or Portal 1 was for a limited time or GTA 1,2 PC then you're accepting ownership very legally too by simply downloadin

How is that legal in any way?

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#86

Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:39 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, Mar 23 2012, 01:19)
QUOTE

If it's available for free like most underground music or Portal 1 was for a limited time or GTA 1,2 PC then you're accepting ownership very legally too by simply downloadin

How is that legal in any way?

Because R* said so? And all those indie artists who're giving music for free listening and downloading.
Legal ownership isn't limited to having CD/DVD. It's not 1992, it's 2012 - digital era with different definitions of ownership, legality and all other stuff. But laws stuck in the 80s.

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#87

Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:41 AM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Thursday, Mar 22 2012, 18:39)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, Mar 23 2012, 01:19)
QUOTE

If it's available for free like most underground music or Portal 1 was for a limited time or GTA 1,2 PC then you're accepting ownership very legally too by simply downloadin

How is that legal in any way?

Because R* said so? And all those indie artists who're giving music for free listening and downloading.
Legal ownership isn't limited to having CD/DVD. It's not 1992, it's 2012 - digital era with different definitions of ownership, legality and all other stuff. But laws stuck in the 80s.

If a company comes and offer something for free, then it's absolutely fine to download it. It's illegal and is stealing when you download a torrented game or movie. Why is that hard to understand? As Shylock has been trying to tell you, you're kidding yourself. You are stealing. Just admit it and stop trying to go on this self-righteous crusade.

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#88

Posted 23 March 2012 - 05:48 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, Mar 23 2012, 02:41)
QUOTE (Street Mix @ Thursday, Mar 22 2012, 18:39)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, Mar 23 2012, 01:19)
QUOTE

If it's available for free like most underground music or Portal 1 was for a limited time or GTA 1,2 PC then you're accepting ownership very legally too by simply downloadin

How is that legal in any way?

Because R* said so? And all those indie artists who're giving music for free listening and downloading.
Legal ownership isn't limited to having CD/DVD. It's not 1992, it's 2012 - digital era with different definitions of ownership, legality and all other stuff. But laws stuck in the 80s.

If a company comes and offer something for free, then it's absolutely fine to download it. It's illegal and is stealing when you download a torrented game or movie. Why is that hard to understand? As Shylock has been trying to tell you, you're kidding yourself. You are stealing. Just admit it and stop trying to go on this self-righteous crusade.

This.

Theft is theft, regardless of any other circumstances. You may not like the law, you may think it's a waste of time or fails to take into account developments in the last three decades, but the law it remains. From a purely subjective point of view, you may believe that the punishments and implementation of the law does not match in any way with the damage done by committing the act, but that's entirely irrelevant. The law must not discern between circumstances unless absolutely necessary for the pure and simple reason that the law is no longer able to be applied properly if it can be picked or chosen where it can be applied. For instance, stealing your own property back is still theft in the eyes of the law, but that's seldom mentioned or discussed. The only reason that piracy attracts so much attention is that large parts of a generation of teenagers and young adults have been exposed to this "something for nothing" culture and now think it's their god-given right to have whatever they damn well please and sod anyone else.

It's a cultural thing as much as anything else.

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#89

Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:39 AM Edited by Street Mix, 25 March 2012 - 10:41 AM.

Haven't found where I was talking about recent stuff (especially when I buy stuff I like) but whatever. For you I'm worse than child molester, rapist anyway.
QUOTE
Why is that hard to understand?

lol.gif Maybe because it's not stealing but simple copying? Yes, it may be illegal in 20-30 countries (out of 200) but it doesn't make it immoral.
QUOTE
It's illegal and is stealing when you download a torrented game or movie.

Is it what law says? Stealing? Or maybe "copyright infringement", "violation of copyright". Yeah even your law says it's copying, not stealing.
But since torrenting is "stealing" than second hand /pre-owned is stealing too, and all that YT videos by users with music are also stealing. If you listened to a song, uploaded not by EMI (etc.) or artist, but by random user than you stole too, you're a thief. No?

Anyway this is pointless so I'm out.

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#90

Posted 25 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Sunday, Mar 25 2012, 10:39)
Haven't found where I was talking about recent stuff (especially when I buy stuff I like) but whatever. For you I'm worse than child molester, rapist anyway.
QUOTE
Why is that hard to understand?

lol.gif Maybe because it's not stealing but simple copying? Yes, it may be illegal in 20-30 countries (out of 200) but it doesn't make it immoral.

People always hide behind the argument of defining "theft" and "copying and stuff". The real issue isn't about nailing down the definition, but in realising that you are getting something for nothing. you are stealing time and creativity if anything. You are getting something for nothing, a "something" that in the normal avenues of distribution costs money. An artist should have the right to charge for their art if they want to, and it's immoral to circumvent that because you are taking something that someone put effort and ideas into, and requested money for, and basically saying "F*ck you I'll just take it".

You can argue the legality of it 'til the cows come home, but acquiring art that an artist wants money for without paying is pretty clearly immoral.




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