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Scottish Independence

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universetwisters
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#1

Posted 26 February 2012 - 12:55 AM Edited by universetwisters, 09 February 2014 - 06:22 PM.

What are your views on Scottish independence, and how do you think a newly-independent Scotland will end up as?


Irviding
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#2

Posted 26 February 2012 - 06:32 AM

I think we discussed this somewhere else, but the general consensus after actually reviewing the facts is a big nay.

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#3

Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:58 AM Edited by Rown, 26 February 2012 - 09:03 AM.

I generally support self-determination. If Scotland wants it, so be it. If it defies logic, again, so be it.

I try to constrain my thoughts to Jeffersonian ideas in the Declaration of Independence:

QUOTE (Declaration of Independence)
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


QUOTE (The Same)
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes...


That said I don't feel the Scottish nation will vote itself an independent state, obviously as an outsider I don't have the best grasp on the situation, but I feel that Scotland doesn't have a set of reasons for separation. Not yet at least.

Rown rampage_ani.gif

sivispacem
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#4

Posted 26 February 2012 - 12:28 PM

Aside from the practical implications of trying to administer a nation which is and always has been largely run by Westminster independently, the financial costs associated with striving for "new nation" status and the debate over whether they could even survive outside of the union, there just doesn't seem to be the popular support for independence. Most figures put it at about 25-30% with a majority against the idea.

If they did get popular support, and resolved the dozens of serious questions and issues arising from independence, I wouldn't really care that much.

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#5

Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:57 PM

I don't know where I stand on this debate. The only thing that I think about constantly is the other things that independence may affect. The big one being the Union Flag, what will that look like if Scotland were to gain independence?

Something like this maybe?
user posted image

Would Wales finally get a piece on the flag if the Scottish part were to be removed? confused.gif

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#6

Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:45 PM

QUOTE (AlexGTAGamer @ Sunday, Feb 26 2012, 10:57)
I don't know where I stand on this debate. The only thing that I think about constantly is the other things that independence may affect. The big one being the Union Flag, what will that look like if Scotland were to gain independence?

Something like this maybe?
user posted image

Would Wales finally get a piece on the flag if the Scottish part were to be removed? confused.gif

It's probably safe to assume that if Scotland is able to get independence, Britain would be in such a horribly weakened state that the whole union would fall apart. Including Wales.

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#7

Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:55 PM

I wouldn't really claim to know enough about the possible repercussions of us becoming independent to really make an informed opinion, but I don't think it's a good idea - nor do I really see any need for it. Most people I've spoken to aren't particularly pro-independance either.

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#8

Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:52 PM

It's a definite nay from me simply because the main reasoning behind the independence seems to only be to stroke the Scottish nationalistic egos that see their country as more than it actually is. I don't see any benefits whatsoever of such a separation occurring and in fact see mainly negatives for both sides; a torn, centuries old union and potential economic problems.

But would they really truly be independent. Sure, they would be officially, but I'm certain that many people would have both Scottish/British citizenship and I'd think military defence would still be a UK dependency. The UK would still be fairly involved with the country and the only differences would be the self management and law making etc.

I have no bitterness against the Scottish and always actually just viewed Scotland as just another part of the country I live in anyways, with the people basically the same nationality as me. I just hate it when people who can't except that their county isn't all that much in the slightest want to change things so pointlessly.

I aren't excellently versed on the political and economical natures of the situation, merely posting my view and how I see things so far to see if anyone could present an alternate way to view the situation (or, if needed, a more educated view).

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#9

Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:55 PM

I don't want independence, and I don't know anyone who does. Alex Salmond is really trying to push it on people, why he believes we would be so much better as an independent country compared to our current status is beyond me. I get the impression that even he doesn't know why he's doing it anymore. Without support from the rest of the UK the economy will fail. Does he not f*cking realise that being united with the rest of Britain and the EU is essential to our success as a country? I will be very interested to see this referrendum, because from what I gather the majority do not support independence.

Sure the parliament would have more power, where no doubt you'd get nothing but rising tax rates to cover the lack of financial support the country used to have. I don't understand why people believe that we can rely on oil exports. That is not a reason for independence at all, and it's incredibly stupid to think so. The whole nationalism thing is again a stupid reason. I and many others have family in England or other UK countries, or have some other link through jobs etc. Becoming independent would damage that important link.

Give the Scottish parliament some more develoved power in areas such as defense, and having all countries debating before making a decision which will affect the military for the whole of the UK. That would allow more important matters to be handled within Scotland, in favour of Scottish people, rather than in Westminister - which is really the only main thing driving this independence, Salmond doesn't like nor trust them.

I really don't see it happening. I just can't seem to find any major benefit that we can't already have by being part of the UK.

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#10

Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:15 PM Edited by John The Grudge, 01 March 2012 - 12:22 PM.

I tend to let my heart rule my head when it comes to the Scottish Independence (as you'll no doubt know if you recall some of my other posts on this subject). I'd like to think that we could make a go of it. My dream for Scotland would be for us to embrace our culture and accept that we are a small country and not meddle in foreign affairs if it can be helped. Our economy seems to be more serviced based. I don't think that lends itself too well to prosperity. I think that if we were to be successful perhaps small businesses would need to be encouraged and we would maybe need to export more things.

I think we can do it but maybe it's too late. Particularly given the massive national debt and the amount that needs to be done. Perhaps I should accept that and just hope Cameron can make Britain a place I can be proud of. I'll say that I have more faith in him or Clegg than I ever will in Labor. That may sound odd considering how unpopular the tories are in Scotland. Cameron seems quite genuine though and not guided by some awful ideology as Thatcher was. Labor pander to people's most immediate desires at great long term costs simply to win votes. They don't appear to give damn about making the country a better place. If they get in power again then I hate to think of the hole they'll get us into.

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#11

Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:29 PM

In an ideal world, I'd like to think that we could go independent, survive, and everything would be easy, but the reality is that it's probably not the case for us. To be honest, we're probably a lot safer staying in Britain.

Scotland does have a lot of oil, which could help us get by, however we're not sure how much we really have and if it would really be able to help us survive as an independent country.

I'm also not sure whether I trust the SNP or not as well. To be honest, they just seem like a bunch of patriotic Scots who want their country to be independent because of stuff that happened centuries ago. They talk a good game, however they never seem to actually outline their plan for how we'd make a good country on our own. I'm far from being Conservative and wouldn't vote for them, but they're right on that front.

As I said, we're probably better to stick with Britain. Things are far from perfect, but the country isn't in an awful crisis, so we seem safe for now.

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#12

Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:58 PM

QUOTE (CheesyJ @ Friday, Mar 2 2012, 20:29)
Scotland does have a lot of oil, which could help us get by, however we're not sure how much we really have and if it would really be able to help us survive as an independent country.

This really is the point of contention when it comes to statistical discussion of the issue. If you believe the SNP, Scotland has enough oil to single-handedly become a new Norway. If you listen to the British government, they've not even got enough to pay the deficit they'd be left with by leaving the union. The reality is somewhere between the two- my concern would be that, even if Scotland did have enough oil and gas left in the North Sea to actually profit from, how would they? I mean, the UK gets it's revenues from North Sea oil and gas from two means- licensing and tax. Many of the long-term licenses (new licenses are done on a yearly basis, but many providers have outstanding long-term contracts that exempt them from this) are already paid for, and many of the firms are centred in London for tax purposes. This poses two significant questions-

1) In the case of the former, how will Scotland profit unless they force oil producers to tear up existing contracts with Westminster and establish new ones with Holyrood- and how can they do this without driving off companies who for the most part aren't making significant profits anyway?

2) In the case of the latter, how can Scotland expect to gain tax revenue from oil production if companies aren't centred in Scotland? Any plan to force companies to relocate away from London (or elsewhere in Europe for that matter, but is just going to result in companies leaving too.

If the answer to either of these questions involves a change from the existing status quo, then I can foresee many companies just packing up and leaving the North Sea. The current arrangements aren't costing them much in the short-medium term, and even thought the costs of production have escalated to the point where it's almost non-viable, there's no reason to shut down existing wells unless they become loss-making. I fear (well, for Scotland) that any attempt to renegotiate terms of oil contracts, or to extract additional tax concessions from oil-producing companies centres in The City is just likely to result in them abandoning production in the North Sea as economically infeasible. So, as far as I can see, it's a "damned if you do" situation should Scotland leave the union. They either won't get much oil revenue because the existing contracts are established with Westminster and are long-standing legal documents, or they'll drive off the oil producers by attempting to force them into renegotiating terms with an independent Scotland.

As it is, the competition for drilling rights in the North Sea is cooling; every year, less and less companies are running the combined risks of harsh conditions and low profit margins to extract Brent crude and gas. All I can see happening in the event of Scotland's independence is the entire industry collapsing.

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#13

Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:36 AM

Good post Sivis. I was making a post as more of an observer, as I'm not massive on politics and don't really know about the situation inside out. You're obviously a lot more knowledgeable on it though. In fact, you look like you'd speak a lot more sense than some of the people in positions of power today.

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#14

Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:53 AM

QUOTE (AlexGTAGamer @ Sunday, Feb 26 2012, 15:57)
I don't know where I stand on this debate. The only thing that I think about constantly is the other things that independence may affect. The big one being the Union Flag, what will that look like if Scotland were to gain independence?

Something like this maybe?
user posted image

Would Wales finally get a piece on the flag if the Scottish part were to be removed? confused.gif

what if all the countries in the uk split up and became independent, and the united kingdom itself became a nato-esque union with britian, scotland, wales, and northern ireland under its belt?

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#15

Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:58 AM

What would be the point of that?

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#16

Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:13 AM

As for the flag, I'm not quite sure of the situation with it at the moment. I believe a while back Ireland became independant, but nobody bothered changing the flag because of the cost? So if Scotland became independant we'd be left with more or less a bunch of seperate countries, at least that's how I see it. As for wales, I think something happened with them a while back too, so that they're part of England/The UK, but they're not at the same time, or something along those lines, I'm really not sure how it works. I'm sure someone knows what I mean or could correct me. smile.gif

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#17

Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:35 PM Edited by sivispacem, 28 March 2012 - 09:13 PM.

I'm from London, that's not fair Scotland, you want to break up the UK and you say you don't want to be ran from Westminster, it's like I get it Scotland, but darn it, the Union Jack looks too cool for you guys to be f*cking it up lol.gif , darn it.

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#18

Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:12 PM

QUOTE (d0mm2k8 @ Monday, Feb 27 2012, 19:52)
It's a definite nay from me simply because the main reasoning behind the independence seems to only be to stroke the Scottish nationalistic egos that see their country as more than it actually is. I don't see any benefits whatsoever of such a separation occurring and in fact see mainly negatives for both sides; a torn, centuries old union and potential economic problems.

But would they really truly be independent. Sure, they would be officially, but I'm certain that many people would have both Scottish/British citizenship and I'd think military defence would still be a UK dependency. The UK would still be fairly involved with the country and the only differences would be the self management and law making etc.

I have no bitterness against the Scottish and always actually just viewed Scotland as just another part of the country I live in anyways, with the people basically the same nationality as me. I just hate it when people who can't except that their county isn't all that much in the slightest want to change things so pointlessly.

I aren't excellently versed on the political and economical natures of the situation, merely posting my view and how I see things so far to see if anyone could present an alternate way to view the situation (or, if needed, a more educated view).

Essentially this. I feel it's a bit petty, and it would be a great shame for the United Kingdom to be broken down - devolved rule isn't enough? People aren't being oppressed these days and national identity is preserved within the Union.

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#19

Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:22 PM Edited by The Scottish Guy, 03 April 2012 - 02:34 PM.

Nope, I definitely don't want independence.

Salmond is nothing but a greedy, power hungry, egotistical fat f*cking maniac piece of sh*t who can't accept he doesn't have full control over Scotland. He doesn't give 2 flying f*cks about the people but rather his grip over us. Like every poltitcian I guess, but as mush as I find Cameron a shady character, I trust him a HELL of alot more than Salmond, which speaks volumes in itself.

I can assure you that Scotland IS better off as part of the United Kingdom. Does that make me any less patriotic about Scotland? According to Salmond and his bitch deputy it does.

And he is such a sly motherf*cker. He's holding this referendum in the year of the Commonwealth games in Glasgow. And a year when it will be the 700th anniversary of The Battle Of Bannockburn. Basically a time when Scottish patrioism will be sky high. What a cunning piece of work this c*nt is.

I really, really hope the Scottish people don't buy into all his "Scottish pride" bullsh*t we'll be getting over the next coming years untill this referendum is finally done and dusted.

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#20

Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:32 PM

Thankfully, most surveys put the support for Scotish indedpndence around 30%. There really isn't much appetite for it amongs educated or rational people.

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#21

Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:30 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem)
Thankfully, most surveys put the support for Scotish indedpndence around 30%. There really isn't much appetite for it amongs educated or rational people.


30% might not be a majority... but that's pretty high. Hell it made the news in the states when Vermont got 13%. What are the undecided numbers in these polls? Or is it not an option?

Sorry to hear the face of the movement is apparently a dick, though.

Rown rampage_ani.gif

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#22

Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Rown @ Tuesday, Apr 3 2012, 19:30)
QUOTE (sivispacem)
Thankfully, most surveys put the support for Scotish indedpndence around 30%. There really isn't much appetite for it amongs educated or rational people.


30% might not be a majority... but that's pretty high. Hell it made the news in the states when Vermont got 13%. What are the undecided numbers in these polls? Or is it not an option?

Sorry to hear the face of the movement is apparently a dick, though.

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Most people tend to have a quite polar view on it. The support has fluctuated between low 10s and low 30s over the last couple of years, with about 5-15% unsure and the rest set against. Most of the evidence suggests that there's a majority who are set against the idea completely. Now, the issue of additional powers for Scotland, that's an entirely different question.

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#23

Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:14 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Tuesday, Apr 3 2012, 13:41)
QUOTE (Rown @ Tuesday, Apr 3 2012, 19:30)
QUOTE (sivispacem)
Thankfully, most surveys put the support for Scotish indedpndence around 30%. There really isn't much appetite for it amongs educated or rational people.


30% might not be a majority... but that's pretty high. Hell it made the news in the states when Vermont got 13%. What are the undecided numbers in these polls? Or is it not an option?

Sorry to hear the face of the movement is apparently a dick, though.

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Most people tend to have a quite polar view on it. The support has fluctuated between low 10s and low 30s over the last couple of years, with about 5-15% unsure and the rest set against. Most of the evidence suggests that there's a majority who are set against the idea completely. Now, the issue of additional powers for Scotland, that's an entirely different question.

How many more powers could they possibly get? To be honest I think if this devolution never started in the first place and it continued with Scottish MPs in Parliament (don't quote me on this but I've heard from British people that Scots have disproportionately greater representation than the English) and that's it, talks of independence wouldn't even be happening.

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#24

Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:34 AM

i know a few scottish people and there views are that we should stick together as united kingdom and i agree.

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#25

Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:38 PM Edited by Jack., 25 May 2012 - 10:53 PM.

But what about all the Rangers fans? Since im a Celt & Real Scot, Then I'm definitely a proud supporter of this! Also Free Wales!
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#26

Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:04 PM

@ Jack,

It's more like free everyone from English control. happy.gif

QUOTE (AlexGTAGamer @ Monday, Feb 27 2012, 02:27)
I don't know where I stand on this debate. The only thing that I think about constantly is the other things that independence may affect. The big one being the Union Flag, what will that look like if Scotland were to gain independence?

Something like this maybe?
user posted image

Would Wales finally get a piece on the flag if the Scottish part were to be removed?  confused.gif

Hang on, wouldn't just be the English flag if Scotland became independent? I thought the big "X" was part of the Scottish flag?

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#27

Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:24 PM

QUOTE (nightwalker83 @ Saturday, May 26 2012, 00:04)
Hang on, wouldn't just be the English flag if Scotland became independent? I thought the big "X" was part of the Scottish flag?

The blue and white x in the Union Flag is from St Andrew's Cross, and the red x is from St. Patrick's Cross.

Broken down:

user posted image

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#28

Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:23 AM

QUOTE (AlexGTAGamer @ Saturday, May 26 2012, 09:54)
QUOTE (nightwalker83 @ Saturday, May 26 2012, 00:04)
Hang on, wouldn't just be the English flag if Scotland became independent? I thought the big "X" was part of the Scottish flag?

The blue and white x in the Union Flag is from St Andrew's Cross, and the red x is from St. Patrick's Cross.

Broken down:

user posted image

Ah ok! Thanks.

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#29

Posted 26 May 2012 - 02:20 AM

Although I haven't followed this story closely I do feel as if it's my civic duty as an American to give my opinion in how forgein countries should be run. I personally would like to see it becoming independent. It's become too ingrained into society that everybody needs somebody else's help when it comes to countries and governments. I know as an american that doesn't sound right, but even america "owns" many countries that we don't really have any reason to. If the Scottish think they can go it alone, more power to you. If it doesn't work, atleast you tried. After all - it is YOUR country, you should be free to do want you want as long as it doesn't interfer with other countries.

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#30

Posted 26 May 2012 - 06:59 AM

QUOTE (DarrinPA @ Saturday, May 26 2012, 03:20)
If the Scottish think they can go it alone, more power to you. If it doesn't work, atleast you tried. After all - it is YOUR country, you should be free to do want you want as long as it doesn't interfer with other countries.

Two points I'd like to add in here- the vast majority of Scots currently want to stay in the union, and you can't split from a union, make a hash of being your own country and come crawling back. Once you've gone, you have gone for good.




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