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WF the Hobgoblin
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#91

Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:01 PM

^ This.

I just hate people in general.

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#92

Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:47 PM

QUOTE (K^2 @ Mar 21 2010, 01:51)
Disliking somebody for sexual orientation, race, nationality, or religion is not bigotry.

Actually, it is.

QUOTE
This brings us up to one of the most ironic statements on the topic. "I hate racists." Every time I hear this, I'm just not even sure how to respond. So you unambiguously hate a large and diverse group of people for them unambiguously hating a large and diverse group of people? Yeah, good luck with that. And yet, somehow, this is a popular position.

That's flawed. Someone's bigoted views isn't comparable to someone's ethnicity and/or sexual orientation. You choose to be a racist or have been brought up to be that way. You don't choose or are brought up to be black and/or gay. So I think it's completely justified and quite different to hate a "large and diverse group" (i.e. racists/homophobes) for being who they are if that's who they want to be; they chose to be like that, they gotta expect to be hated back in kind (and theirs [yours?] is an unreasonable and inexcusable hate with no basis other than hating for hating's sake).

QUOTE
Not pampering to the whiniest minority, like "Political Correctness" does.

And one of the most whinest things to do in this society is to moan about political correctness. What was that you were saying about hypocrisy? wink.gif

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#93

Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:54 PM

@K^2:
Wow, that's actually a real eye opener.

I've really rethought the way I see things and have noticed this.

I don't really dislike anyone if they are racist or homophobic.
In fact, some of my friends are racist and hate gay people but they aren't bothered if homosexuals get married or anything.

I wouldn't even be bothered if they did care about them getting married as long as they didn't try to stop them from doing it.

It's people who want to stop gays from having equal rights that I dislike.
Sure they have the right to an opinion, but they have no right to purposely breach other people's equal rights.

Just like the KKK had no right to kill blacks just because they were black.

QUOTE
Just as long as you don't actively make other people's lives difficult by doing so

This is what made me realise that I stupidly branded all homophobes as anti-gay activists which, I now know, isn't true.
I noticed that we can have an opinion on gays, and if we don't like them it doesn't make us a bigot, unless we try to make their lives difficult because of the fact they are gay.
Thanks smile.gif

Damn, us humans are complicated tounge2.gif

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#94

Posted 22 March 2010 - 04:42 AM

QUOTE (Oxidizer @ Mar 21 2010, 18:47)
QUOTE
This brings us up to one of the most ironic statements on the topic. "I hate racists." Every time I hear this, I'm just not even sure how to respond. So you unambiguously hate a large and diverse group of people for them unambiguously hating a large and diverse group of people? Yeah, good luck with that. And yet, somehow, this is a popular position.

That's flawed. Someone's bigoted views isn't comparable to someone's ethnicity and/or sexual orientation. You choose to be a racist or have been brought up to be that way. You don't choose or are brought up to be black and/or gay. So I think it's completely justified and quite different to hate a "large and diverse group" (i.e. racists/homophobes) for being who they are if that's who they want to be; they chose to be like that, they gotta expect to be hated back in kind (and theirs [yours?] is an unreasonable and inexcusable hate with no basis other than hating for hating's sake).

Having homosexual tendencies does appear to be at least partially biological, but practicing homosexuality is a choice. Don't kid yourself about that. And if having biological tendency means that person has no choice in his/her actions, we should start pardoning child molesters. That's just a side note, though.

Consider a child who grew up in a racist family. He was taught from childhood that people of other races are inferior, and that they are only slightly above animals. Having little information to the contrary, that becomes part of understanding of the world. It's just as obvious to him as that the sky is blue. As the child grows up, it becomes part of his personality. First of all, is it his fault for growing up in this environment anymore than it is a black person's fault for growing up black? No. It's not. Second question, is it part of what defines him as a person? Yes, it is. So you are hating someone for something they had no choice in, and even if you could change this quality about him, that would be a different person. And you still think you are somehow different from a racist? Really?

Oh, and I don't hate. Hate is an irrational feeling. Hate, fear, and ignorance are what's wrong with this world. I do dislike some cultures, though. I generally try to stay away from people of these cultures.

WF the Hobgoblin
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#95

Posted 22 March 2010 - 11:11 AM

I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions. While I don't condone racism, I don't think you should be persecuted for being a "racist". It shouldn't be illegal to hate other races. It shouldn't be illegal to use racial slurs, in fact I don't think any verbal abuse should be illegal.

The same goes for homophobia. I am a bit homophobic I guess, since the idea of two men is disgusting to me but as long as I don't have to see it, it's not a big deal. I do use words like f*ggot a lot and generally look down on them in a way but i wouldn't automatically dislike someone just because their gay. Lesbians on the other hand...

I think the public and media are often too quick to jump on the politically correct bandwagon. "OMFG, he said the N / F word. RACIST / Homophobe, get him!!!"

I reckon in a century or so, paedophilia will be legal. Not my cup of tea but whatever floats your boat i guess. We are all supposed to be open minded after all.

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#96

Posted 22 March 2010 - 11:49 AM

Homophobic feelings are natural, why should I feel bad for being uncomfortable around homosexuals? I'm not offending them, I'm certainly not diminishing their quality of life, and since I have the capability of keeping my thoughts to myself they certainly won't even know of my opinion. I wouldn't, however, deny a person a job because he was homosexual; although I would have to work with him which would result in me feeling uncomfortable, I'd still strive to work efficiently and I'm of the strong belief that sexual orientation does not affect the quality of a job being performed.

Same thing applies with racism, except I don't really have anything against any races in particular. I feel uncomfortable/kind of edgy when talking with Albanians or Croatians, but considering that my parents and family are from the former Yugoslavia and are victims of the wars between the different ethnicities there, I literally and probably will never be able to overcome this uneasiness.

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#97

Posted 22 March 2010 - 03:02 PM

I honestly don't care about someone's sexuality. I'm straight and fully sure (I used to kind of have an identity problem and unsure of myself) but if someone is gay I don't attack them for it or tell them anything. It's your life and whether you are forced or choose to be something or that someone you are, it doesn't concern me.

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#98

Posted 22 March 2010 - 04:34 PM

QUOTE (K^2)
Having homosexual tendencies does appear to be at least partially biological, but practicing homosexuality is a choice. Don't kid yourself about that. And if having biological tendency means that person has no choice in his/her actions, we should start pardoning child molesters. That's just a side note, though.

QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin)
I reckon in a century or so, paedophilia will be legal. Not my cup of tea but whatever floats your boat i guess. We are all supposed to be open minded after all.

You two are made for each other. bored.gif
QUOTE (Stefche)
Homophobic feelings are natural, why should I feel bad for being uncomfortable around homosexuals? I'm not offending them

Homophobia isn't natural; it's being a bigot - nothing more. lol.gif As for not being offensive, you probably are, because that's exactly what being a homophobe and a racist is all about, whether you mean to be or not. If you're uncomfortable about what two guys or two girls get up to behind closed doors then don't watch them while they're at it or stop thinking about it.

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#99

Posted 22 March 2010 - 06:46 PM Edited by WF the Hobgoblin, 22 March 2010 - 06:51 PM.

I reckon you must be queer. Either that or you just try to contradict everybody for the sake of it.

It's funny you saying homophobia is not natural. Your right it isn't, seeing how homosexuality isn't natural. If there was no homosexuality, there'd be no homophobia.Bigotry on the other hand, that is natural. Don't kid your self.

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#100

Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:12 PM

How is homophobia natural? Can someone please explain this to me?

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#101

Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:22 PM

Oxidizer, you know what being homophobo-phobic really says about you, right? tounge.gif

Oh, and paedophilia is not something that should be illegal. It's not something you can regulate, and morally, fantasizing about sex with minors is no more wrong than fantasizing about killing people. And, well, this is GTAF, so I hope I don't have to carry this idea any further. As far as something being psychologically wrong with these people, hard to tell. These with irresistible urges, definitely, and they should seek help. These that simply get aroused by the idea? Who knows. We don't really understand human psyche enough to say what's normal at this level. But as long as it's not harming anyone, I don't see a reason to make an issue out of it.

Now, actually acting on these urges is a different story. While I do think that current laws on child pornography are, well, ridiculous. (If a 17 year old girl gets prison time for sending pictures of self to her boyfriend of the same age, the system isn't working. And then there is the whole mess with simulated child pornography...) Overall, laws on age of consent and various forms of child exploitation are there for a good reason. There is no reason for prepubescent children to be involved in any sort of sexual acts, so there the law can be as strict as required to be effective. Now the 14-18 age groups are more complicated, but I think current laws that set up maximum age difference work pretty well.

This is getting a bit off tangent, but I just wanted to clarify that my call for tolerance of diverse opinions does not extend to tolerance of harmful actions.

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#102

Posted 22 March 2010 - 11:21 PM

Are most things modern humans do "natural"? Is wearing clothing natural? No other animal on the face of the earth does this. You could argue that no other animal has the capacity to design clothing but I've certainly never seen a panda covering itself with a leaf to stay modest. We were never designed to fly buy we do that anyway, not to mention driving (which CLEARLY some people were never meant to do).

Why on earth would someone "choose" to be gay? That makes exactly the same sense that a straight person "chose" to be straight: none. No woman would chose to be with another woman any more than she would chose to be with a man. I'm not saying that people don't chose who the have sex with, this is strictly gender-related.

Why would such a large part of the population randomly choose to be gay? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Clearly people that chose to be gay could just as easily chose to be straight, so why don't they? Why would someone risk being a social outcast when the could easily say screw it and decide to bang women? Do you really believe that gay people are different because they want to be different?

What about gay animals? Is that "unnatural"?

@K^2 I can't agree with you on pedophilia. It doesn't seem right for a 35 year old man to have sex with an eight year old girl. The girl isn't even really aware of what she's doing as she's (presumably) never been taught. But there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with "sexting" being synonymous with child porn. It's pretty ridiculous how a prank (admittedly a pretty harsh one, but that is what kids do...) can turn into a felony with jail time.

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#103

Posted 23 March 2010 - 11:58 AM

Once a gay guy checked me out.

I didn't mind it, made me feel sexy tounge2.gif

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#104

Posted 23 March 2010 - 12:02 PM

QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin)
I reckon you must be queer. Either that or you just try to contradict everybody  for the sake of it.

Depends on your definition of queer really. If by queer you mean being someone who genuinely doesn't give a f*ck whether a boy or girl is gay, straight or bi, then yeah, I'm queer. Seeing two guys together does nothing for me sexually just like seeing two girls together does nothing for me sexually, but neither actually repulse or angers me. I think it looks just as cool as if it were a boy and a girl kissing. Why anyone would feel physically uncomfortable or be angered by that, I don't know. That's unnatural.
QUOTE (K^2)
Oxidizer, you know what being homophobo-phobic really says about you, right?  tounge.gif

Not really. Tell me.

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#105

Posted 23 March 2010 - 12:20 PM

Theres many definitions of the word queer. In this instance I was implying that you were a homosexual.

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#106

Posted 23 March 2010 - 12:34 PM

QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin @ Mar 23 2010, 23:20)
Theres many definitions of the word queer. In this instance I was implying that you were a homosexual.

I think he just explained that he was bisexual.

QUOTE (Oxidizer)
Why anyone would feel physically uncomfortable or be angered by that, I don't know. That's unnatural.


So I'm abnormal even though I harbour uneasiness at the thought of two guys making love? I don't see what's so abnormal since they're just feelings; unless I'm using those feelings to discriminate against homosexuals through denial of a job or lower human rights, then there really is nothing wrong with it. I'm a heterosexual; if I didn't feel uneasy at the thought of two guys having sex, I'd consider myself to be bisexual. Yet since I do feel uneasy, I'm unnatural?

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#107

Posted 23 March 2010 - 01:37 PM

QUOTE (Stefche @ Mar 23 2010, 12:34)
QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin @ Mar 23 2010, 23:20)
Theres many definitions of the word queer. In this instance I was implying that you were a homosexual.

I think he just explained that he was bisexual.

Did I? notify.gif

QUOTE
So I'm abnormal even though I harbour uneasiness at the thought of two guys making love? I don't see what's so abnormal since they're just feelings; unless I'm using those feelings to discriminate against homosexuals through denial of a job or lower human rights, then there really is nothing wrong with it. I'm a heterosexual; if I didn't feel uneasy at the thought of two guys having sex, I'd consider myself to be bisexual. Yet since I do feel uneasy, I'm unnatural?

Well, it's not exactly normal to feel physically queasy about it, is it? I'm not gay, I'm not bi, yet if I see two guys or two girls kissing it doesn't affect me negatively at all. It doesn't make me feel uncomfortable or angry or anything like that, and why should it? How would that be in any way natural? It's just the same as if it was a straight couple kissing. And if it's gay sex that you're talking about, then stop watching gay porn or thinking about the logistics of it if it makes you feel that uneasy.

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#108

Posted 23 March 2010 - 03:19 PM

QUOTE (Fozzy Fozborne @ Mar 22 2010, 19:21)
@K^2 I can't agree with you on pedophilia. It doesn't seem right for a 35 year old man to have sex with an eight year old girl. The girl isn't even really aware of what she's doing as she's (presumably) never been taught. But there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with "sexting" being synonymous with child porn. It's pretty ridiculous how a prank (admittedly a pretty harsh one, but that is what kids do...) can turn into a felony with jail time.

I don't think you read my post. Try again.

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#109

Posted 23 March 2010 - 03:37 PM Edited by RomanViking, 23 March 2010 - 03:40 PM.

I think gay men are cool. I am off course referring to the pretty, metrosexual gay men.

Hairy men with bad skin or that full-of-themselves attitude --- they're not cool in any way, Gay or Straight.



My views on gays are by a case to case basis. I've met wonderful gay men I liked, and were attractive in that "I'm well maintained" kinda way. I've also seen outright nasty gay men, usually due to their hairyness and/or bad skin.



I can't dislike a whole group of people, as within that group there are individuals. I am attracted to some woman, and utterly repulsed by other women.




------------------------------------------




Okay, for this next part you will need to use your mind's eye. Your imagination land, if you will:

Picture in your mind, lesbian sex. Hot right? But now imagine, hairy, leathery-skinned women having lesbian sex. Not hot anymore is it?


Almost any vague image or idea can mean so many different things. When you pictured lesbian sex the first time just now, you probably imagined smooth-skinned, non-hairy beauties going at it AMIRITE?

And when you anti-gays imagine gay sex between two men, you probably immediately picture, essentially, physically unpleasant men having butt sex AMIRITE?



------------------------------------------



I'd say the whole culture of unshaven men with hairy bodies and often times bad skin should change.. Women are expected to look so good, yet men don't have standards nearly that high. What you end up with is everyone's views of men's bodies as being ugly and even nasty/gross. (when it doesn't even have to be that way, my body isn't that way anyway.. screw you lazy "manly" men --- your bodies are gross when they don't even have to be)

It's strange, because if a woman had bad skin and didn't shave her body hair, she would be as equally unpleasant physically.

Seriously.

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#110

Posted 23 March 2010 - 05:09 PM

^ Finally, someone with some sense around here. icon14.gif

(And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what being a "homophobo-phobic" really says about me, K^2.)

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#111

Posted 23 March 2010 - 05:39 PM

QUOTE (RomanViking @ Mar 23 2010, 15:37)
I think gay men are cool. I am off course referring to the pretty, metrosexual gay men.

Hairy men with bad skin or that full-of-themselves attitude --- they're not cool in any way, Gay or Straight.



My views on gays are by a case to case basis. I've met wonderful gay men I liked, and were attractive in that "I'm well maintained" kinda way. I've also seen outright nasty gay men, usually due to their hairyness and/or bad skin. 



I can't dislike a whole group of people, as within that group there are individuals. I am attracted to some woman, and utterly repulsed by other women.




------------------------------------------




Okay, for this next part you will need to use your mind's eye. Your imagination land, if you will:

Picture in your mind, lesbian sex. Hot right? But now imagine, hairy, leathery-skinned women having lesbian sex. Not hot anymore is it?


Almost any vague image or idea can mean so many different things. When you pictured lesbian sex the first time just now, you probably im

Wtf? I can understand not liking a guy for having a "full of themselves" attitude, but if you are straight, their appearance shouldn't really be an issue. Sure i agree when regarding women but men?

The difference is:

Good looking lesbians kissing or having sex = hot. Ugly ones = not hot.
Two men going at it = revolting regardless of what they look like.

Completely disagree with the last point. I think there are too many of these nancy boy metrosexuals running around. Guys need to start to acting like men and dressing like men again. Enough of with the effeminate tight clothing and beauty products already.

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#112

Posted 23 March 2010 - 05:52 PM

QUOTE (Stefche @ Mar 22 2010, 11:49)
Homophobic feelings are natural, why should I feel bad for being uncomfortable around homosexuals? I'm not offending them, I'm certainly not diminishing their quality of life, and since I have the capability of keeping my thoughts to myself they certainly won't even know of my opinion. I wouldn't, however, deny a person a job because he was homosexual; although I would have to work with him which would result in me feeling uncomfortable, I'd still strive to work efficiently and I'm of the strong belief that sexual orientation does not affect the quality of a job being performed.

Same thing applies with racism, except I don't really have anything against any races in particular. I feel uncomfortable/kind of edgy when talking with Albanians or Croatians, but considering that my parents and family are from the former Yugoslavia and are victims of the wars between the different ethnicities there, I literally and probably will never be able to overcome this uneasiness.

The fact that some things seem to make you uncomfortable is albeit understandable also a bit weird. I also feel uncomfortable thinking of that straight German couple (obese beyond belief) having sex with each other, yet I generally don't go to say that straight sex makes me uncomfortable.

Or that working with a gay person would make me feel uncomfortable, I presume you don't work in a sex for hire venue selling yourself, so no reason to feel uncomfortable whatsoever.


To others that seem to bring sex with minors into this thread (nowhere in the OP nor the poll is that mentioned). Your apparently discomfort and ignorance shines through. More then 80% of these discussions always end up with some idiot mentioning having sex with underage boys, as if being gay and underage sex has anything to do with each other, as they have clearly not.

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#113

Posted 23 March 2010 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin @ Mar 23 2010, 17:39)
Guys need to start to acting like men and dressing like men again. Enough of with the effeminate tight clothing and beauty products already.

Everyone should start wearing dishdashahs. Convenient and comfortable.

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#114

Posted 23 March 2010 - 06:10 PM

QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin @ Mar 23 2010, 17:39)
Wtf? I can understand not liking a guy for having a "full of themselves" attitude, but if you are straight, their appearance shouldn't really be an issue. Sure i agree when regarding women but men?

The difference is:

Good looking lesbians kissing or having sex = hot. Ugly ones = not hot.
Two men going at it = revolting regardless of what they look like.

I still don't see how it can be genuinely revolting unless you've got some insecurity issues to an extent (I'm not saying the clichéd and mostly untrue thing that you're hiding anything regarding your sexuality btw, so don't worry). It might be a bit embarrassing if you've never seen anything like that before at first, but wouldn't you just laugh it off or just feel disinterest towards it rather than be disgusted? Being uncomfortable in the discriminating way that you are seems like you're just trying to be offensive for whatever reason.

QUOTE
Completely disagree with the last point. I think there are too many of these nancy boy metrosexuals running around. Guys need to start to acting like men and dressing like men again. Enough of with the effeminate tight clothing and beauty products already.

You know men have always worn tight clothes, used beauty products and been effeminate to a degree, right? Like the Tudors or Victorians or Elvis or in the 70's. It was trendy then and it's trendy now. Not my thing personally, but what does it matter if a bloke wants to look and feel alright about himself? Men don't need to dress or act in a certain way that suits a bigoted view. tounge.gif

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#115

Posted 23 March 2010 - 08:57 PM

You are forgetting the biological basis. Attractive females in sexually suggestive situations trigger reward centers in male brain. Unattractive females and males in general suppress reward centers. So seeing two men going at it is fundamentally unpleasant to a normal male brain. Finding it repulsive does not mean that you have issues. It means that your brain works the way it is supposed to.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being wired a bit differently. If it doesn't bother you at all, good for you. It probably makes your life easier. But don't make assumption that it's the same for everyone, because you are actually in the minority.

Personally, I don't find it revolting, but it is mildly unsettling for me. Some people might react stronger to it. Some might not react at all. That's just human physiology.

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#116

Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:13 PM

lol.gif And where did you get these facts from? And more to the point, what exactly does being a homophobo-phobic say about me again?

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#117

Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:46 PM

I suppose homosexuality could be natural in the sense that it's just another one of nature's ways of keeping the population down. Although not particularly effective compared with infertility, not to mention disease and natural disasters.

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#118

Posted 23 March 2010 - 10:40 PM

QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin @ Mar 23 2010, 17:46)
I suppose homosexuality could be natural in the sense that it's just another one of nature's ways of keeping the population down. Although not particularly effective compared with infertility, not to mention disease and natural disasters.

Doesn't seem likely. It's easier to adjust female ovulation cycles, for example, than some complex behavior like this. By easier, I mean requiring fewer mutations, of course. So that's the way that nature will do this.

QUOTE
And where did you get these facts from?

Research done with fMRI on human brains. It showed how the reward centers of human brain, in both females and males, reacted to images of persons of the same and opposite sex in different situations. In non-sexual situations, it seems to ignore ugly people of both genders, activate on beautiful members of opposite sex, and get suppressed by same sex. With sexual context, it just shifts bias a bit. So ugly women would also cause suppression. If you really want to, I can dig around for some articles.

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#119

Posted 25 March 2010 - 09:57 AM

I exaggerate a lot, so when I was discussing the thought of it being "disturbing", I wasn't saying that I literally vomit at the thought of two men having sex. As K^2 put it, the thought is mildly unsettling. I don't even think about it (I'd be a hypocrite if I said I did), but if someone is discussing it then I would simply divert my thoughts onto another area, so it's very rare that I actually exhibit these unsettling thoughts.

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#120

Posted 25 March 2010 - 02:05 PM

You sure about that? lol.gif You clearly put some thought into the logistics of it with this post:
QUOTE (Stefche @ Mar 7 2010, 13:13)
Now I find the thought of homosexuality to be disgusting. I just can't stand the thought of a man thrusting his 6-incher deep up my pooper like I'm Jenna Jameson. Nor can I stand the thought of some guy jizzing in my face. I just find it f*cking disgusting. The process, the thought, everything about it. Disgusting.

tounge2.gif




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