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Melchior
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#511

Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:01 AM

Not to mention that marriage- as we understand it- is one of the oldest and most important institutions in our society and excluding same-sex couples is nothing short of lunacy. "Oh you looked forward to getting married your whole life but you fell in love with wrong gender? f*ck you queer."

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#512

Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:27 PM

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What you've said there too is an assumption, well it's less of a moral assumption but it's not a fact and as such it remains an opinion.

Quite possibly.


So it begins ...

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The facts are that generally homosexuality in general harms no-one, if you're into it that's your choice if you're not then you're not. It's really not a difficult thing to grasp.

Depends on how someone defines harm. There are people who think that homosexuals already have all the necessary rights and any further legislation will lead to moral decay of society. Do I agree with that? No. But it presents an interesting contrast in peoples views, which I find rather difficult to invalidate.


Interesting or not, we're no longer discussing homosexuality, instead we're heading further and further in the direction of contrasting views rather then one specific subject.

Though if we're going to talk about this a little I feel that we might as well get it over with, firstly unless you've got proof to back up your thoughts and feelings then you're just blabbering dribble to anyone that'll listen. In this case we'll use the people that think that homosexuals getting the right to legally marry will be the downfall of modern society as an example, they've got absolutely zero proof that the gender of a parent matters, if it did then they should also be opposing single parents too as they both fit into that category.

To be honest there's really nothing that validates peoples views and opinions on things in the first place, I mean there's a reason they're called opinions and not facts as such I'd find it rather difficult to try and invalidate someone's opinion as it seems (to me at least) that the opinion needs to be validated first and invalidated later.

Now though if we're going to all weird and say that homosexuality may harm some since it can in a sense 'harm' others then we're speaking complete gibberish, harm can really only be done if it in someway or another has an effect on you. I can see no possible situation where an openly gay couple that wanted to get married would harm anyone, y'know unless there was some sort of underlying issue like a love triangle.

Besides that rather outlandish example though there's really no way you can claim that homosexuality is harmful to anyone.

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Please don't say that that's my moral viewpoint because it's not, what it is in fact is a pure and simple fact.

Facts can be based on empiricism or self-consistency. You can't empirically prove someones moral basis as factually right or wrong, you can only prove their consistency. A partial reason why Principia Mathematica was created was because of a similar issue arising in mathematics. Thid lead to such wonderful things as trying to prove 1+1=2.


I'm pretty sure that you could very easily empirically prove that homosexuality doesn't harm anyone, the issue would arise when trying to empirically prove that it does in fact harm people. There's really no way (at least from where I'm standing) that homosexuality could actually cause any problems at all.

You can also pretty easily prove nearly anyone's moral basis factually right or wrong, an example would be to look at the Nazi fascists and tear apart their views, both political and moral. Sometimes you just can't defend someone's views, as they're often far, far too idiotic to comprehend and I personally feel like those who feel very strongly about the idea of homosexuals getting married fit into that group well.

To be blunt there's simply no way anyone can defend a viewpoint like that, at least if they wish to leave with their sanity intact.

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There can be no debating that homosexuality's evil or unnatural considering that every single species on the planet (other than the ones that don't actually bother to engage in sexual activities and go about reproducing in a different manner) is known to have homosexuality in it, therefore if you're judging homosexuality as being unnatural you're just wrong, and that's the hard truth of the situation.

No, I'm not arguing it from that angle if thats what you're presuming or expecting. Words like 'natural' or 'normal' can become rather ambiguous anyway, so theres no real point in trying such an approach.


Yes, I know that but it's still further evidence that it's really quite simple to invalidate such a bigoted person's viewpoint. I was never making the assumption that you were arguing from that position, I'm simply stating that it's not hard to bring empirical facts into the situation and that there's really no need to be obtuse are you seem to be.

Cyper
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#513

Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:54 PM Edited by Cyper, 07 May 2013 - 12:57 PM.

Given that you accept democracy, and given that you don't believe in any authority such as God, this whole debate doesn't really exist.


Because anyone who saý otherwise, will be proven false very quickly.

Regarding suicide rates there is no scientific evidence that proves that homosexuality cause suicide neither do I see any philosophical proof for this.

There is no wonder if suicide rates is higher among homosexuals, though. When your family doesn't want to know you, when your friends don't want to talk to you, when people tell you that your sexual orientation is a shame - or even worse when they tell you that you are an abomination that deserves to cease to exist, and when society in general look down on you, then you have a quite obvious explanation why certain people don't want to live anymore.

Also, people's opinions on the issue does not matter. It's their argument, but maybe more importantly in this case, scientific evidence. We already know opinions are like assholes - everyone has one. If there is no argument, there the post isn't Worth much at all.

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#514

Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:33 AM

I'm just going to pop up out of nowhere wink.gif

I don't mind gays, As long as they keep it to their self's you know. I don't want to turn on the T.V on look at the paper and see a gay guy half naked with "I am what i am" next to him.

They may sound wrong or what ever but i think people should just keep that stuff to them self's.

If it's wrong and all that people would be it, I say let them get on with it as long as it does not effect me or my family.

sivispacem
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#515

Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:40 AM

I really don't know where this idea of people being "in your face" with their sexuality comes from. To me, most of the claims that people are fine with homosexuals as long as they keep it to themselves are really just covertly saying "I don't particularly like homosexuality, but don't want to appear bigoted".

Tyler
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#516

Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:10 AM

What's wrong with self-expression any how? Everyone should be allowed to see their preferred sex walkin' about looking confident and happy with their actions. If you're really that bent about seeing two guys kissing may be you should reassess other parts of your psyche, rather than convince yourself you "don't mind gays."

Also, what if someone in your family is a big ol' flaming gaylord?

Mince
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#517

Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:03 AM

QUOTE (The Imposter @ Wednesday, May 15 2013, 01:33)
I'm just going to pop up out of nowhere wink.gif

I don't mind gays, As long as they keep it to their self's you know. I don't want to turn on the T.V on look at the paper and see a gay guy half naked with "I am what i am" next to him.

They may sound wrong or what ever but i think people should just keep that stuff to them self's.

If it's wrong and all that people would be it, I say let them get on with it as long as it does not effect me or my family.

What you're referring to seems to relate to public nudity instead of sexual orientation. Yes, there are people in gay pride parades that will dress flamboyantly, but that's hardly representative of all non-heterosexuals (there's more to it than gay males). In addition, as Tyler said, why not simply deal with it? And how often do you really see such people (not just regular gay couples) in the media?

The reason those people act like they do is to get the attention of heterosexuals, to bring the subject into the public light, to break the sense of shame that has lasted for so long. We can argue whether or not gay pride parades are necessary nowadays, but even then, considering all the heterosexual couples that we gays have to see, well, pretty much everywhere, do you really think you have it hard?



The Pizza Delivery Guy
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#518

Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:11 AM

I believe in rights for all humans. You know, like the U.S. Constitution says? If so, Minnesota (FINALLY) legalizing gay marriage is only the 11th out of 50 states to do so. 11/50 isn't all. So lies.

Seriously, how is gay marriage even a debate. That's like being told that you can only eat chocolate and peanut butter together, rather than individually. That's a really loose comparison, but I stand by that argument. Gayness should be legal no matter what OH FATHER ALMIGHTAY has to say.

So yes, be gay if you want to.

Cyper
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#519

Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:31 AM Edited by Cyper, 17 May 2013 - 11:38 AM.

QUOTE (The Imposter @ Wednesday, May 15 2013, 05:33)
I don't mind gays, As long as they keep it to their self's you know. I don't want to turn on the T.V on look at the paper and see a gay guy half naked with "I am what i am" next to him.

They may sound wrong or what ever but i think people should just keep that stuff to them self's.

If it's wrong and all that people would be it, I say let them get on with it as long as it does not effect me or my family.

What you just wrote can be interpreted in two ways:

1) Only homosexuals does not have the right to show themselves half-naked on the TV or in the newspaper.

2) No one have the right to show themselves half-naked on the TV or in the newspaper.

Argument: Because that is my personal preference.


If we assume that you owned a store, and I among others refused to buy from your store, that would affect you and your family in a negative way.

Does that make it wrong for me not to buy from your store?

Or if you disliked blue shoes, and I would wear them walking in front of you that would have an negative effect for you. Does that mean I am not allowed to wear blue shoes?

You'll have to evaluate this because it awfully much sounds like you're trying to force your opinions upon others while at the same time using your personal preference as support for a factual statement.

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#520

Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:06 PM Edited by Valenta, 20 May 2013 - 12:32 AM.

QUOTE (The Pizza Delivery Guy @ Thursday, May 16 2013, 05:11)
I believe in rights for all humans. You know, like the U.S. Constitution says? If so, Minnesota (FINALLY) legalizing gay marriage is only the 11th out of 50 states to do so. 11/50 isn't all. So lies.

Seriously, how is gay marriage even a debate. That's like being told that you can only eat chocolate and peanut butter together, rather than individually. That's a really loose comparison, but I stand by that argument. Gayness should be legal no matter what OH FATHER ALMIGHTAY has to say.

So yes, be gay if you want to.

I've had this same view for years. Why these people can't just leave them to live their life in peace, I'll never know.

Cyper
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#521

Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:40 PM Edited by Cyper, 21 May 2013 - 04:50 PM.

Great analogy, even though doubt there is any solid evidence at all that shows that homosexuality is a choice. Yet even if it was, then it's still a human right.

But your analogy state the truth; If the Bible or the Koran stated that you can only eat chocolate and peanut butter together, rather than individually, then the majority of religious people would do so.
This is insane. Really, really insane. But it does not end there. The Bible stated that if your child cursed, you had the right to kill your child. (2 Mos 21:17). It stated that homosexuals should be killed. (3 Mos 20:13). If a woman had sex before marriage she should be killed. (5 Mos 22:20-21). The Bible state that God created earth in a few days - and it does so without a shred of physical evidence or even an logical explanation. Now that's an insane statement and only an ignorant person would claim this. The fact that God did not create earth is as self-evident that the earth ain't flat. There will of course be people who say that ''Well, we don't believe that anymore.''. Of course not - and that's because of science and philosophy. The so called ''absolute morality'' have never been absolute, and it's never going to be. It's absolute nonsense. The old stories makes no sense anymore. We've found other ways to explain things. Even if God existed, which one would be refer to? Because there is hundreds.

This debate is pointless and I don't see how it's even allowed to discuss it (at least not in this section which should have serious debates). Because no one here will present any reasonable argument ''against'' homosexuality, only a heap of rubbish based on belief and the wish to force your own belief upon other people. It's the same type of rubbish that Nazi's discuss, or racists, when to decide what sort of person ''quality'' to be a part of society and/or if they should be punished. It's as out of bounds as having a debate about whenever it is right or wrong to be a Jew.

Humanity....

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MadClownBadDub
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#522

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:08 AM

Love is love, brothers and sisters and everything in between. If you ain't down with that, you're living in the wrong time. Welcome to 2013.




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