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Does Right wing ideology favors Fascism?

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TheShogunOfHarlem
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#1

Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:59 PM

I know that my title is incendiary but please read my OP in full before you post any response. This post is more of a discussion on what Fascism is and how it functioned in the past (present) and how it is often an attack that the Left uses to criticize the Right. On the flip-side, the Right has often referred to people on the Left as Socialists/Communists/etc. (But I digress, that is for another thread discussion) For this specific thread I want to discuss the belief of some on the Left believe (in my case in the USA) that the Right are Fascists or favor Fascism in some new form. In this case I will refer to it as Neo-Fascism.

Historically speaking, the Left has used the "Business Plot" conspiracy (of the 1930's) as an example of the Right (in this case Big Business) trying to mount a Coup against FDR and to install a Fascist regime in its place. Perhaps this is the origin of that allegation. I'll get to the Business Plot later.

Some contemporary commentators have outright accused the Right of either supporting Fascist governments or of being/supporting policies that could be considered Fascist. The most prominent that I can think of would be Michael Parenti:

In this lecture he makes his case:




Let the discussion begin...

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#2

Posted 18 February 2012 - 11:09 PM

I am inclined to think that their are fascist elements in American politics. I used to read up on subjects like this but it has been a few years so I'm rusty with my knowledge. We may refer to it today as "Corporatism" or the like but big corporations and the government are indeed intertwined along with other entities. Nothing is simple about these relationships.

TheShogunOfHarlem
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#3

Posted 18 February 2012 - 11:19 PM

True. What's Funny about Corporatism is that there is a quote or saying that is often attributed to Benito Mussolini that: Fascism should be called Corporatism.

HydraulicWaRiOr
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#4

Posted 18 February 2012 - 11:38 PM

True socialism lies at the heart of society, the many. True capitalism lies at the heart of the capital, the few. Society needs to focus on what is important; the whole. If people don't look after the whole, the individual will fail, along with the rest of the world. We believe that individualism advocates failiure, racism and discrimination, along with economical problems especially since capitalism has a system of classes, so we support Communism.

[OBEY]

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#5

Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:06 AM

QUOTE (HydraulicWaRiOr @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 23:38)
True socialism lies at the heart of society, the many. True capitalism lies at the heart of the capital, the few. Society needs to focus on what is important; the whole. If people don't look after the whole, the individual will fail, along with the rest of the world. We believe that individualism advocates failiure, racism and discrimination, along with economical problems especially since capitalism has a system of classes, so we support Communism.

[INeedAttention]

Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist. tounge2.gif

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.

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#6

Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:15 AM

I (and many others) used to wonder how the German Peoples would get involved in that nasty business of the thirties and forties. Then our glourious leader Bush showed us how with his WMD fiasco. I also seem to remember that a Roman republic elected a Dictator (J. Caesar).
When the people get tired of running their own lives they will easily hire somebody to do it for them.
People in Government like power and will do whatever they can to 'boil the frog'.

Iminicus
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#7

Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:22 AM

The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

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#8

Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:25 AM

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

Iminicus
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#9

Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:45 AM

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:25)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

Marxism, Communism and Fascism are ideologies of the left sphere on the political spectrum. Which is opposite to the Right Wing, therefore, this topic is completely wrong. The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Look, here is a list of people that were fascist, marxist or communist. None of who were Right Wing, ie conservative.

Adolf Hitler
Stalin
Lenin
Chairman Mao
Che Guevara
Kim Il Jong
Fidel Castro

If those people were right wing, do you think Sean Penn would like them? No, because he is a liberal and on the left wing. Which is where they all sit.

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#10

Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:49 AM

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)
The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Iminicus
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#11

Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:57 AM

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)
The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum.

Marxism

One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best.

Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

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#12

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:03 AM

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)
The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum.

Marxism

One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best.

Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum?

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#13

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:10 AM

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work.



QUOTE
Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist. 

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.
The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

Iminicus
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#14

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:11 AM

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)
The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum.

Marxism

One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best.

Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum?

If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter.

Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what.

He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic.


Iminicus
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#15

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:15 AM

QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:10)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work.



QUOTE
Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.  

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.
The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

Umm, the Socialist part of the National Socialist Party is like the main thing about them. It is what they stood for. How can you not focus on it? It would be like ignoring the whole Space in National Aeronautical and Space Association aka NASA.

And what Hitler did in Germany? Well, he took away the means of private industry from private people and handed it over to the people. In doing this, he had them sign a social contract putting him in complete control of Germany. From its means of production to every social aspect. He was given unlimited power by the people because they wanted that. He then abused that power and lead them into a war. A war which still isn't comparable to what George Bush did.


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#16

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:23 AM

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:11)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)
The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum.

Marxism

One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best.

Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum?

If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter.

Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what.

He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic.

You for some reason reduced my question to American presidents. Rethink my question but this time imagine I'm asking about all countries. All leaders.

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#17

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:27 AM

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:23)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:11)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)
The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum.

Marxism

One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best.

Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum?

If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter.

Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what.

He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic.

You for some reason reduced my question to American presidents. Rethink my question but this time imagine I'm asking about all countries. All leaders.

Besides Margaret Thatcher, most countries elect people on the left of the political spectrum. There aren't really any countries in the last 100 years, besides America that elects right wing politicians. Even those that appear right wing in other countries are more likely left wing. IE, the Prime Minister of New Zealand or Australia or Canada. They are more left wing than right wing. The same with the leaders of Germany, France, England, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Russia, etc.

Therefore, the only place to go is American presidents.

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#18

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:31 AM

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:27)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:23)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:11)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:03)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:57)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 19:49)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:45)
The right wing doesn't favor fascism because it doesn't favor the base ideology of fascism, which is based on the works of Karl Marx.

Was Mussolini Left of the political spectrum?

Yes, he was. Most dictators are/were on the left of the political spectrum.

Marxism

One of the base ideas is about the 'greater good' and the equality of man. And that everyone should work for everyone. And that the Government knows best.

Does any of that sound like something the Right Wing expresses? You have Limbaugh, Palin, Reagan all talking about the opposite of that. They are three of the biggest Right Wingers. They don't talk about how the Government should control your life, or run business or that you should spread the wealth to those who have less. That is what you hear from people on the left, Micheal Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, President Barack Obama aka Democrats, liberals.

So what dictator or "bad leader" of the 20th century do you think was of the Right of the political spectrum?

If you are baiting me into saying George Bush Jr, I have news for you. I won't. Compared to other leaders in the 20th Century, George Bush wasn't half as bad as Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler or even more contemporary people like President Carter.

Have there been terrible right wing presidents? Yes, Nixon would be one. As he abused his presidential powers and spied on the Democrats. Was Bush a terrible leader? Depends on what.

He was right to go into Afghanistan and even Iraq, which had unanimous support from both sides of the aisle in Congress. Did he have bad policies? Yes, because he tried to be something to everyone and ignored his core base. However, he isn't comparable to Hitler, Lenin or Stalin. Which is the point of this topic.

You for some reason reduced my question to American presidents. Rethink my question but this time imagine I'm asking about all countries. All leaders.

Besides Margaret Thatcher, most countries elect people on the left of the political spectrum. There aren't really any countries in the last 100 years, besides America that elects right wing politicians. Even those that appear right wing in other countries are more likely left wing. IE, the Prime Minister of New Zealand or Australia or Canada. They are more left wing than right wing. The same with the leaders of Germany, France, England, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Russia, etc.

Therefore, the only place to go is American presidents.

Wow. The whole world is against you huh? whatsthat.gif

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#19

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:33 AM

QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:31)
snip

No, I am simply saying that in today's political climate people are gravitating towards politicians who will take care of their problems. They no longer want personal responsibility. And which is why so many countries are in debt over Welfare programs.

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#20

Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:45 AM

I will take this opportunity to gripe about bank centered finance seeing as I haven't done it an undetermined amount of time.

Why must banks have a monopoly on the production of money thus insuring debt a prominent place in society? Could we not have a marketplace of currencies all vying for my usage? But no I'm stuck in a financial system where banks getting scared brings the whole damned economy to its knees. Rada rada.


Immy, while Right Wingers don't espouse 'social' supremacy, they do support 'moral' supremacy arguments quite a bit. How does that play, if at all?

Rown rampage_ani.gif

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#21

Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:00 AM

QUOTE (Rown @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:45)
I will take this opportunity to gripe about bank centered finance seeing as I haven't done it an undetermined amount of time.

Why must banks have a monopoly on the production of money thus insuring debt a prominent place in society? Could we not have a marketplace of currencies all vying for my usage? But no I'm stuck in a financial system where banks getting scared brings the whole damned economy to its knees. Rada rada.


Immy, while Right Wingers don't espouse 'social' supremacy, they do support 'moral' supremacy arguments quite a bit. How does that play, if at all?

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Moral Supremacy tends to be left out of legislation, unlike social supremacy. The Constitution being the herald of this. Take the Gay Marriage Acts being passed. Some people are saying that it isn't Constitutional to stop gay marriage while others take the moral ground saying it is about religion. Unfortunately, those on the moral ground are right as marriage as always been a religious right in the US.

Many right wingers, myself included, would argue the Government needs to get out of the marriage business on all fronts, including gay marriage and marriage. As marriage licenses are just another form of tax revenue. Why should you pay to marry the person you love? Where is the social or moral right of the Government to say that you have to pay for this? When it was a religious freedom, it was free. And there was no Government intervention in it.

On the bank centered financing, you can blame Government intervention on that. Especially, in England where the Government controls the Reserve bank and allowed 'social responsibility' to dictate to the banks who to and how to lend money. The same happened in New Zealand and the US, thanks to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and the Fed Reserve.

Look into the history of the Fed Reserve ( created and passed by a democratic president ), Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac set up by a democratic president and supported by democrats.

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#22

Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:27 AM

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:15)
QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:10)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work.



QUOTE
Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.  

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.
The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

Umm, the Socialist part of the National Socialist Party is like the main thing about them. It is what they stood for. How can you not focus on it? It would be like ignoring the whole Space in National Aeronautical and Space Association aka NASA.

And what Hitler did in Germany? Well, he took away the means of private industry from private people and handed it over to the people. In doing this, he had them sign a social contract putting him in complete control of Germany. From its means of production to every social aspect. He was given unlimited power by the people because they wanted that. He then abused that power and lead them into a war. A war which still isn't comparable to what George Bush did.

Because it is a disingenuous part of their name.

Both Hitler and Mussolini gave huge subsidies to big businesses within their respective countries. They both were anti-union and rabidly anti-communist. Some of the Holocaust victims were Communists. Plus don't get me started on the Business plot. Fascism has it's variations but it is very much a right wing in nature when you look at a number of Fascist government historically speaking. Chile under Pinochet would be a perfect example. It was a US support anti-leftist/communist Fascist government.

The point of this thread is to look at Fascism as a whole not just Nazi Germany which while it was a variation of fascism was all over the place in its ideology.

As far as the right wing in the US is concerned they are very heavy handed and big government friendly. This notion that the American Right is against big government is so laughably ludicrous that it's maddening. Outlawing abortion/contraceptives (regardless of where you are in that debate) the measure that the right is taking against abortions is the very definition of authoritarian and Big Government.

Then there is the Aptly called "Financial Martial Law" rule in Michigan that the Republicans are using to literally void Democracy! That is BIG Government authoritarian rule to the core.

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#23

Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:49 AM

QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 05:27)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:15)
QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:10)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work.



QUOTE
Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.  

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.
The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

Umm, the Socialist part of the National Socialist Party is like the main thing about them. It is what they stood for. How can you not focus on it? It would be like ignoring the whole Space in National Aeronautical and Space Association aka NASA.

And what Hitler did in Germany? Well, he took away the means of private industry from private people and handed it over to the people. In doing this, he had them sign a social contract putting him in complete control of Germany. From its means of production to every social aspect. He was given unlimited power by the people because they wanted that. He then abused that power and lead them into a war. A war which still isn't comparable to what George Bush did.

Because it is a disingenuous part of their name.

Both Hitler and Mussolini gave huge subsidies to big businesses within their respective countries. They both were anti-union and rabidly anti-communist. Some of the Holocaust victims were Communists. Plus don't get me started on the Business plot. Fascism has it's variations but it is very much a right wing in nature when you look at a number of Fascist government historically speaking. Chile under Pinochet would be a perfect example. It was a US support anti-leftist/communist Fascist government.

The point of this thread is to look at Fascism as a whole not just Nazi Germany which while it was a variation of fascism was all over the place in its ideology.

As far as the right wing in the US is concerned they are very heavy handed and big government friendly. This notion that the American Right is against big government is so laughably ludicrous that it's maddening. Outlawing abortion/contraceptives (regardless of where you are in that debate) the measure that the right is taking against abortions is the very definition of authoritarian and Big Government.

Then there is the Aptly called "Financial Martial Law" rule in Michigan that the Republicans are using to literally void Democracy! That is BIG Government authoritarian rule to the core.

Yeah, this. I have never heard of anyone saying that Hitler or Mussolini were in league with Communism. To think that the best and clear thinking "American" political thought of the past 100 years came from Rush, Sarah, and Ronald is uh, wow. That is scary. suicidal.gif

Iminicus
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#24

Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:51 AM

QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 21:27)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:15)
QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:10)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work.



QUOTE
Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.  

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.
The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

Umm, the Socialist part of the National Socialist Party is like the main thing about them. It is what they stood for. How can you not focus on it? It would be like ignoring the whole Space in National Aeronautical and Space Association aka NASA.

And what Hitler did in Germany? Well, he took away the means of private industry from private people and handed it over to the people. In doing this, he had them sign a social contract putting him in complete control of Germany. From its means of production to every social aspect. He was given unlimited power by the people because they wanted that. He then abused that power and lead them into a war. A war which still isn't comparable to what George Bush did.

Because it is a disingenuous part of their name.

Both Hitler and Mussolini gave huge subsidies to big businesses within their respective countries. They both were anti-union and rabidly anti-communist. Some of the Holocaust victims were Communists. Plus don't get me started on the Business plot. Fascism has it's variations but it is very much a right wing in nature when you look at a number of Fascist government historically speaking. Chile under Pinochet would be a perfect example. It was a US support anti-leftist/communist Fascist government.

The point of this thread is to look at Fascism as a whole not just Nazi Germany which while it was a variation of fascism was all over the place in its ideology.

As far as the right wing in the US is concerned they are very heavy handed and big government friendly. This notion that the American Right is against big government is so laughably ludicrous that it's maddening. Outlawing abortion/contraceptives (regardless of where you are in that debate) the measure that the right is taking against abortions is the very definition of authoritarian and Big Government.

Then there is the Aptly called "Financial Martial Law" rule in Michigan that the Republicans are using to literally void Democracy! That is BIG Government authoritarian rule to the core.

No it isn't a disingenuous part of their name
Of course, they were big business, they controlled them. As such, they had no need for unions since Hitler told the people that they own the businesses because they are German people.

Fascism is still on the LEFT of the Political Spectrum, not the right which is what this topic is about.

On the Abortion thing and Contraceptive thing. The Republicans don't think the Government has a Constitutional right to mandate that RELIGIOUS institutes have to offer contraception which go against the beliefs of the followers. And they are right, which is why Obama has said that he is no longer pushing that.

Abortion is a different matter. But I'll let you know that Planned Parenthood was founded by a lady who dislikes black people but was a democratic supporter and most Planned Parenthoods are in low income black neighbourhoods.

Most of the Big Business/Big Government relationships are from Democrats promising things to Unions ie GM, Goldman Sachs etc. Not Republicans.

Michigan has been run by Democrats for the last 60 years, and it is a financial mess. That Financial Martial Law is to put the state back in the black and not red. It doesn't void democracy in anyway.

This whole topic is a bait topic and I took the bait.

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#25

Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:58 AM

QUOTE

Fascism is still on the LEFT of the Political Spectrum, not the right which is what this topic is about.

Um, not according to pretty much every single academic sourcing on the matter. If you look at rudimentary left-right spectrum, fascism is infact on the far right. If you look at a regular graph spectrum, it's again opposite socialism and communism.

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#26

Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:00 AM

QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 05:51)
QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 21:27)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 04:15)
QUOTE (TheShogunOfHarlem @ Saturday, Feb 18 2012, 20:10)
QUOTE (Jeeebuuus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:25)
QUOTE (Iminicus @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 03:22)
The National Socialist Party aka Nazi Party were fascists and very much on the left of the political spectrum. Right Wing isn't near fascist or marxism or communism.

Could you please explain that a little further?

I was going to say the same thing. I like how so many people on the right like to put emphasis on the "Socialist" aspect of the Nazi party's name without trying to understand how it worked in Germany at the time or how it continues to work.



QUOTE
Lol you realize that racism is a form of collectivism, right?

On Topic: As a libertarian, I think both sides are fascist.  

Fascism is basically corporatism, something both sides love. Liberals like corporatism when it favors "green" energy, and conservatives love corporatism when it favors the agricultural industry.
The Left in the strictest sense is as far from fascist as you can get. If you are referring to American Democrats then you can make that argument since in many ways the Democratic party isn't very progressive to begin with. If anything they are in favor of the same corporations that Republicans are in favor of: Namely Big Banks, Oil Companies, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. The notion that the Democratic Party is representative of all things Progressive is laughable. The Political climate in the US is typically center/right regardless of which party controls The White House/Congress.

Umm, the Socialist part of the National Socialist Party is like the main thing about them. It is what they stood for. How can you not focus on it? It would be like ignoring the whole Space in National Aeronautical and Space Association aka NASA.

And what Hitler did in Germany? Well, he took away the means of private industry from private people and handed it over to the people. In doing this, he had them sign a social contract putting him in complete control of Germany. From its means of production to every social aspect. He was given unlimited power by the people because they wanted that. He then abused that power and lead them into a war. A war which still isn't comparable to what George Bush did.

Because it is a disingenuous part of their name.

Both Hitler and Mussolini gave huge subsidies to big businesses within their respective countries. They both were anti-union and rabidly anti-communist. Some of the Holocaust victims were Communists. Plus don't get me started on the Business plot. Fascism has it's variations but it is very much a right wing in nature when you look at a number of Fascist government historically speaking. Chile under Pinochet would be a perfect example. It was a US support anti-leftist/communist Fascist government.

The point of this thread is to look at Fascism as a whole not just Nazi Germany which while it was a variation of fascism was all over the place in its ideology.

As far as the right wing in the US is concerned they are very heavy handed and big government friendly. This notion that the American Right is against big government is so laughably ludicrous that it's maddening. Outlawing abortion/contraceptives (regardless of where you are in that debate) the measure that the right is taking against abortions is the very definition of authoritarian and Big Government.

Then there is the Aptly called "Financial Martial Law" rule in Michigan that the Republicans are using to literally void Democracy! That is BIG Government authoritarian rule to the core.

No it isn't a disingenuous part of their name
Of course, they were big business, they controlled them. As such, they had no need for unions since Hitler told the people that they own the businesses because they are German people.

Fascism is still on the LEFT of the Political Spectrum, not the right which is what this topic is about.

On the Abortion thing and Contraceptive thing. The Republicans don't think the Government has a Constitutional right to mandate that RELIGIOUS institutes have to offer contraception which go against the beliefs of the followers. And they are right, which is why Obama has said that he is no longer pushing that.

Abortion is a different matter. But I'll let you know that Planned Parenthood was founded by a lady who dislikes black people but was a democratic supporter and most Planned Parenthoods are in low income black neighbourhoods.

Most of the Big Business/Big Government relationships are from Democrats promising things to Unions ie GM, Goldman Sachs etc. Not Republicans.

Michigan has been run by Democrats for the last 60 years, and it is a financial mess. That Financial Martial Law is to put the state back in the black and not red. It doesn't void democracy in anyway.

This whole topic is a bait topic and I took the bait.

What the hell is up with your picture?

On topic: Is there any political movement on the right in the past 100 years that you don't agree with. Is every bad regime in that period of time "left wing" to you?

Chunkyman
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#27

Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:09 AM

Left-Right isn't an accurate depiction of political ideologies. The Nolan Chart is much better at showing where a particular "-ism" lies.

user posted image

Fascism is near the bottom, and it shares some elements common to both left-wing and right-wing ideologies.

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#28

Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:13 AM Edited by TheShogunOfHarlem, 19 February 2012 - 06:46 AM.

QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 05:58)
QUOTE

Fascism is still on the LEFT of the Political Spectrum, not the right which is what this topic is about.

Um, not according to pretty much every single academic sourcing on the matter. If you look at rudimentary left-right spectrum, fascism is infact on the far right. If you look at a regular graph spectrum, it's again opposite socialism and communism.

This. Only that addled brained Glen Beck has gotten away with peddling that nonsense without any facts to back himself up.

QUOTE (Iminicus)
No it isn't a disingenuous part of their name
Of course, they were big business, they controlled them. As such, they had no need for unions since Hitler told the people that they own the businesses because they are German people.

Fascism is still on the LEFT of the Political Spectrum, not the right which is what this topic is about.

On the Abortion thing and Contraceptive thing. The Republicans don't think the Government has a Constitutional right to mandate that RELIGIOUS institutes have to offer contraception which go against the beliefs of the followers. And they are right, which is why Obama has said that he is no longer pushing that.

Abortion is a different matter. But I'll let you know that Planned Parenthood was founded by a lady who dislikes black people but was a democratic supporter and most Planned Parenthoods are in low income black neighbourhoods.

Most of the Big Business/Big Government relationships are from Democrats promising things to Unions ie GM, Goldman Sachs etc. Not Republicans.

Michigan has been run by Democrats for the last 60 years, and it is a financial mess. That Financial Martial Law is to put the state back in the black and not red. It doesn't void democracy in anyway.

This whole topic is a bait topic and I took the bait.


As for this:
user posted image

I honestly don't even know where you get your info from at all but you are seriously misinformed if you think Fascism is left wing ideology. I don't think I can help you see it any other way at all. I've neither the time nor the patience.

As for the Socialist aspect of the National Socialist German Workers Party answer me this question: Based on your logic would you call the People's Republic of China a Republic? Would you Call the Democratic Republic of Congo a Democracy or a Republic? Titles of countries and Political parties are meaningless.

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#29

Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:15 AM Edited by TheShogunOfHarlem, 19 February 2012 - 06:29 AM.

QUOTE (Chunkyman @ Sunday, Feb 19 2012, 06:09)
Left-Right isn't an accurate depiction of political ideologies. The Nolan Chart is much better at showing where a particular "-ism" lies.

user posted image

Fascism is near the bottom, and it shares some elements common to both left-wing and right-wing ideologies.

Not too sure I buy this... For starters, any political ideology can be authoritarian be it left or right.

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#30

Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:22 AM

Iminicus. Your signature is a picture of men smelling other men's assholes. How does that adhere to conservative principles? Or are you a hipocrite? Or are you just trolling us?




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