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Mapping Los Santos! Building/landmark analysis

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Hardly
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#5581

Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:43 PM Edited by Hardly, 23 November 2012 - 10:52 PM.

QUOTE (SCLASS @ Friday, Nov 23 2012, 21:55)
Yeah ...sure R* ..if you include some sparsely populated Vinewood hills areas as 'city'.......where does one draw the boundary ?....If you put a road with a houses on either
side leading away from the city you can include that as 'city'... Calm down Kifflom , were just debating.

I think most people would consider the Hollywood Hills to be part of the city of Los Angeles. That's just the way the city is laid out.

Also, the reason why it seems that the countryside is much larger than the city is because countryside uses less unique assets to create, and therefore uses less disk space. In previous GTA games, most buildings, if not all, are unique models. They don't copy and paste the same row of buildings block after block.

But when you're in the countryside, trees and shrubs aren't unique, they all look the same. By being able to use the same handful of tree/shrub/plant models everywhere in the world, it saves up a lot of disk space, without making it look unrealistic or repetitive.

So I would rather have a game world that's 5 times the size of RDR and contains a city the size of GTA IV than a world that's nothing but a city that is twice the size of GTA IV. The size of the city that you're asking for is far too much, unless you're willing to compromise by drastically reducing the size of the overall game world, or filling Los Santos with generic, reused buildings.

Dick Valor
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#5582

Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:49 PM

QUOTE (SCLASS @ Friday, Nov 23 2012, 21:55)
Yeah ...sure R* ..if you include some sparsely populated Vinewood hills areas as 'city'.......where does one draw the boundary ?....If you put a road with a houses on either
side leading away from the city you can include that as 'city'... Calm down Kifflom , were just debating.

In real life L.A. the Hollywood Hills are part of the city limits, as is much of the Santa Monica Mountains. Additionally, there is cityscape north of those mountains (e.g., the San Fernando Valley) that also fall within the limits of the proper City of Los Angeles. All we have seen geographically is the bulk of the L.A. Basin area (the most famous and iconic urban sprawl in L.A.). However, in real life this sprawl trickles northwest and spreads a long way southeast and is divided into numerous mountains, valleys, and canyons... Some areas that are still technically part of L.A. city are simply "a road with a houses on either side leading away from the city" as you put it. I'm not squabbling over semantics, I'm talking the literal boundaries of L.A., which is a famously massive and geographically dispersed city.

So, it's presumptuous to assume we've already seen all of LS. Based on how the city is defined in real life, it wouldn't surprise me if the claim that LS is bigger than LC by square footage turned out to be true.

Hardly
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#5583

Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:01 PM

QUOTE (GKP @ Friday, Nov 23 2012, 10:09)
Not so Gouranga...True Crime SOLA had a 240 sq mile rendition of LA. Yes there were a lot of repetitive buildings but all the same .

LS in V is a sh*tty cut down, corners cut , lowest common denominator pleasing shambles. LS is around 3 maybe 4 sq miles at most. What a f*cking joke. In other words, its about the size of a town of perhaps 20 000 people...not several million.

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.....

Los Santos is "sh*tty cut down, corners cut , lowest common denominator pleasing shambles" but True Crime LA isn't? Do you understand that NOBODY except for maybe you wants block after block of cut and paste sh*tty generic buildings?

Ugh. Excuse me I'm going to go shoot myself in the f*cking face.

Kifflom112
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#5584

Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Hardly @ Friday, Nov 23 2012, 17:01)
QUOTE (GKP @ Friday, Nov 23 2012, 10:09)
Not so Gouranga...True Crime SOLA had a 240 sq mile rendition of LA. Yes there were a lot of repetitive buildings but all the same .

LS in V is a sh*tty cut down, corners cut , lowest common denominator pleasing shambles. LS is around 3 maybe 4 sq miles at most. What a f*cking joke. In other words, its about the size of a town of perhaps 20 000 people...not several million.

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.....

Los Santos is "sh*tty cut down, corners cut , lowest common denominator pleasing shambles" but True Crime LA isn't? Do you understand that NOBODY except for maybe you wants block after block of cut and paste sh*tty generic buildings?

Ugh. Excuse me I'm going to go shoot myself in the f*cking face.

IKR, it's really just unbelievable...
I can't even begin to describe how silly, for the lack of a better word or I'll get in trouble, devil.gif I think that is.

Hardly
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#5585

Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:07 PM

Seriously GKP, if you just want to drive around in a boringly realistic virtual city all day then I cannot stress enough that this is not the right game for you.

You might want to try this game out instead. I am not being sarcastic.
http://www.citybussimulator.com/

This thread used to be a very good thread. In fact I check it every day. Some people have made amazing discoveries from very limited information.

Then you showed up...

adrian949
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#5586

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:29 AM

QUOTE (jbte @ Friday, Nov 23 2012, 03:32)
Hey all, made this new map using the latest images available and second trailer video.


I did everything according to the image analysis, 3D modeling references and digital mapping of the terrain. And of course some help from this thread smile.gif
Hope you like, any corrections let me know!

Great effort but some things are just completely wrong and contradict your own references (eg 48).

47 is definitely wrong, see 7.

I just don't see why you included all these screen shots with the point of views on the map, when they contradict themselves. Just don't include all that stuff if you won't stay true to it.


saul stein
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#5587

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

the city reminds me of rio de janero a little,and it looks like east la goes on for a while,maybe they bumped watts over there,you know they gotta put the watts towers in the game,great job w the maps

Hardly
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#5588

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:49 AM Edited by Hardly, 24 November 2012 - 03:03 AM.

QUOTE (GKP @ Friday, Nov 23 2012, 17:03)
Kifflom. Since 1998.

And no I did not expect 240 sq miles.

Lets say 30 square miles though...or a mere 5 by 6 miles in size. That is 5 minutes to cross at a very average highway speed. Not so large is it ?...not so repetitive ...
The future is coming anyway , and it will be reflected by larger, more realistic cities. A paradigm shift will come and procedurally generated large cities will be the order of the day. It doesnt have to be
'boring' , 5 or 10 minutes to drive somewhere should be an absolute minimum for immersion. Nevermind eh...you know best.

expand your minds and realise there are high end tools out there that can create cities in a very short amount of time.


Jesus. You really have no f*cking clue what you're talking about, do you?

You know what, forget it. I'm not going to waste my time explaining to you what is wrong with the video you posted. I'm not going to tell you that you aren't taking into account the complexity involved in pathfinding for NPC vehicles in a procedurally generated world. I'm not going to explain to you that the video you posted isn't being generated in real time, and CAN'T be generated in real time with the level of detail of a GTA city given today's console technology. Just stop trying to impose your misinformed views of game development onto us because you saw a cool video. There isn't a "magic tool" out there where R* just has to press a button and suddenly a fully formed, full size rendition of a fictional Los Angeles springs up out of nowhere. A lot of time and effort and days upon days of coding went into the city generator you posted, and it is still far, far away from creating anything that could actually be identified as any specific city, along with interiors, mission locations, vehicle and pedestrian pathing, etc.

I get that you're excited about procedural generation. I think it's a cool subject too. But the video you posted was created four years ago, and there haven't really been any updates since then. There's a reason why not a lot of attention is paid to procedural city generation, and that's because of the uncanny valley effect. No matter how much effort you put into creating a generator, the result will never quite look like the real thing. I can't stress how deluded it is to believe that it could be possible to overcome that uncanny valley before the release of the next generation of consoles. The idea that you think there's just some piece of software out there and all R* has to do is hit a button and suddenly in a matter of seconds it does all the work better than a team of professional game designers took years to do is beyond lunacy.

Kifflom112
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#5589

Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:15 AM

^^^Just ignore it. I got worked up with it too, lol.

LotusRIP
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#5590

Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:30 AM Edited by LotusRIP, 24 November 2012 - 05:33 AM.

Oh jesus christ. Maybe we should stop making music too. Forget The Beatles. Just hit a button that generates random notes and sings random words. It's sure to sound a whole lot better than Hey Jude! suicidal.gif

@GKP

When are you releasing your next open-world game? I sure hope it gets a better rating than V, and I can buy real estate.

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#5591

Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:27 AM

Any ideas on which Air Force Base will be included? I've seen Edward's A.F.B. pop up a few times around here. Would that be the most likely one to feature?

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#5592

Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:40 AM

This is truly impressive work. Nice to get a look at what the map will probably look like. I really hope there's a good bit more to the map off to the left, afterall, a plane was seen flying up that canyon, I doubt it would be going up it if it was a dead end. I hope they have some other small cities in the map that they're keeping secret from us.

SCLASS
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#5593

Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:00 AM

Hardly - as we say in the UK ...wind your neck in.

Again, its a situation with extremes with you guys isnt it..both in reaction to my points and the degree it which you take things literally.

The video I posted was merely an example, its working to a simple algorithm to produce its seemingly complex streets. Thats an algorithm that can be fine tuned to whatever the devs want. ALL I am suggesting is merging a little more real life town planning with R*'s take on a city.

AI pathfinding and interiors...of course , I take your point, but TCSOLA did it with a degree of success on a very large scale..yes too large for a GTA series. An assets bank of say 20 different houses, 10 different warehouses and maybe 20 different types of commercial buildings would be sufficient to avoid uncanny valley issues. Yes, if you look closely you will repeated buildings occasionaly, but that's a small price to pay for an expansive world.

What is more jarring, driving across a city in a few minutes or perhaps having the illusion of a long drive ...10 minutes IS a solid, acceptable amount of time to travel without feeling boredom and would add immensely to the feeling of travelling to different locales. As it stands, a 30 second to minute drive to different parts of the city will make V feel like a huge soundstage..you could even say theme park of a city..a mere pastiche compared the actually very well done (and realistically sized country / mountain areas.

Remember it is not one or the other, I'm speaking of something in between. Having a hood area of say 100 city blocks of very similar type housing is what Compton is really like ..or course its much larger irl ..but 10 by 10 blocks will give a flavour of the maze of real life areas WITHOUT it feeling like a bus simulator. Similarly with industrial or office areas...small changes in strategy would 'solve' all my issues with the game whilst increasing immersion without unacceptable disc space required.

Stop taking things to heart...stop with the ad hominem attacks and just understand what I am saying. Future consoles / games WILL be much like what I say..you do realise that dont you ?...30 - 100 sq mile cities will be a reality in games , if acceptable then ..why not now ?...( the lower end of that estimate for current tech).

LotusRIP
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#5594

Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:40 AM

QUOTE (SCLASS @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 09:00)
An assets bank of say 20 different houses, 10 different warehouses and maybe 20 different types of commercial buildings would be sufficient to avoid uncanny valley issues. Yes, if you look closely you will repeated buildings occasionaly, but that's a small price to pay for an expansive world.

Actually, that is a huge price to pay. And it's exactly the thing the sets GTA apart from other average sandbox games. Who the hell wants a huge map with a small amount of variation in buildings? Just tell me what exactly is the point in traversing the map to see things you could see in the space of 1 or 2 streets. f*ck sakes. They are hand crafting the map to suit not only the location, but the gameplay and missions specifically. This is something a computer can't just spit out.

To quote yourself. "Wind your neck in".

PS. you never answered me... where's your award winning open-world game? Can't wait to play it.

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#5595

Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:55 AM Edited by lxr, 24 November 2012 - 10:00 AM.

Just like filling the remaining holes the city, finding more evidence in the countryside seems to be getting harder. So nothing too exciting here.

The ledge below Trevor's boot should be to the right of the Zancudo River shot (G1), near the offroad shot (M2). And in the second image, there is another mountain in the distance, just left of the right wing of the second plane, between the trees, which may be the peak on the left edge of both (P1) and (P2).

user posted image

user posted image

SCLASS
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#5596

Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:56 AM

Lotus - because thats the price you pay for immersion. Small cities will not cut it for much longer . If you plotted the GTA series from 3 to V on a chart in terms of city size / realism...you will find that they actually are incorporating what I am saying.

The number of city blocks per city from LC in 3 to VC to LS in SA to LS in V has been rising steadily...this will be the case for VI and VII. You have to agree that R* will include larger suburbs in their future games (on the 720/PS4) whilst maintaining their unique take on areas. Disc space will allow for this. Hell, laser mapping real buildings and just dumping it into the game will be possible when blu ray is de-facto across the board.

Your living in the past if you think miniature golf course cities are here to stay. R* just need larger suburbs...you do know that MANY residential areas have only a few different housing designs. Be it projects or upscale areas...identikit housing is a cornerstone of American suburbia whether you like it or not. The archetypal 'picket' fences and sprawl SHOULD be part of the game.

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#5597

Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:04 AM

QUOTE (SCLASS @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 09:56)
Lotus - because thats the price you pay for immersion.

I'm sorry, but immersion is not driving down 1 street and being reminded "this is just a game!" when you see all the copy and paste housing. Yes, bigger is better, but only with little or no compromise to quality. To be immersed in a video game, it needs to be believable and let your mind wander. The minute you're reminded that it's only a game, you wake up, and any immersion is lost.

Go play Desert Bus or something.

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#5598

Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:45 AM Edited by lxr, 24 November 2012 - 11:03 AM.

QUOTE (LotusRIP)
...


QUOTE (SCLASS)
...


Guys... I guess you've both made you're arguments, both have their merits... but it doesn't really look like you're going to convince each other.

In LC, Grand Central Station is 4 blocks up from the Brooklyn Bridge. What's that in RL, I guess around 50. Where's the Bowery? Where's Tompkins Square Park? You can argue that half of what's interesting in Manhattan got lost there. It's a very valid argument. But you can also argue that every time you got to get some celebrity their favorite sandwich from the South Bronx, it's a good thing these 50 blocks are missing. (And there will be moments in V too when you just want to get somewhere, when the next thing you're interested in will only happen once you got there.) Some people get their feeling of immersion by driving around, some people get it by getting stuff done. GTA will always have to find its place in the middle -- unlike Civilization or so, where you can just scale the map up to "huge" and turn the speed down to "epic", in case you're into that type of immersion.

Bottom line: The closer you look at the map, the more obvious it becomes it's compressed. There's a lot of detail, but a lot of the more generic space in between is missing. (And it's not just the map. What is an Internet with 200 websites? A joke? Biggest in-game Internet ever? Both?) If one likes that or not is a matter of taste, after all. It's hard to argue about it, and it will get boring after a while.

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#5599

Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:57 AM

LXR - true when so many LA locales are missing it takes away the feeling of being in a city rather than a theme parked parody of one.

It wouldn't take much to include a real sized airport..instead we get 700m long runways ...f*cking ridiculous - thats 10 times the wingspan of a jumbo.

Suburbs of 80-200 blocks would not take a THING away from the game. It would only add to it. Jesus...small minded, easily pleased ppl here.


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#5600

Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (SCLASS @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 11:57)
LXR - true when so many LA locales are missing it takes away the feeling of being in a city rather than a theme parked parody of one.
It wouldn't take much to include a real sized airport..instead we get 700m long runways ...f*cking ridiculous - thats 10 times the wingspan of a jumbo.
Suburbs of 80-200 blocks would not take a THING away from the game. It would only add to it. Jesus...small minded, easily pleased ppl here.

I don't get the real point of this conversation.
Of course Los Santos is a condensed version of Los Angeles.
It's been like that for every game since the dawn of video games and it will always be like this, even with the next gen of consoles.

Take a look a few years back when GTA IV got out.
Liberty City is awfully small compared to New York but I'm pretty sure all of us here on this forum spent weeks having fun in Liberty city, despite it's small size compared to real life.
It will be the same with GTA V, you'll all be having a blast with the game, even if the city seems too small for your taste. and that's what's important.

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#5601

Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:45 AM

QUOTE (Fido_le_muet @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 11:36)
I'm pretty sure all of us here on this forum spent weeks having fun in Liberty city, despite it's small size compared to real life.

Dude, I still get lost in Liberty City. There's so many streets and little nooks and cranny's that I've never been that I stumble across in multiplayer and have to check where I am on the map. Happened to me just tonight, and makes me wonder how tough it will be in GTAV! But that's the fun of it too!

Anyways... continue on... did we ever get an explanation from jbte about his map? I'm curious to know how he determined all the locations.

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#5602

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:31 PM

When you squeeze out every single pixel of that Franklin/GF scene (click for full size), you'll see one more detail.

Any idea?

user posted image

user posted image

Fido_le_muet
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#5603

Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

I guess it's the GTA name of the Roosevelt Hotel.

"The Craste........"

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#5604

Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:36 PM Edited by lxr, 24 November 2012 - 01:41 PM.

QUOTE (Fido_le_muet @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 13:00)
I guess it's the GTA name of the Roosevelt Hotel.

"The Craste........"

And the other two prominent buildings are the First National Bank and the Chateau Marmont, correct?

(Just wondering if we should be able to see the house here then.)

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#5605

Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

1.
user posted image

user posted image

2. Radio mast?
user posted image

user posted image

Fido_le_muet
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#5606

Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:03 PM Edited by Fido_le_muet, 24 November 2012 - 02:07 PM.

@lxr : Yeah, Franklin's apartment is between Chateau Marmont and the Hollywood Blvd Stores in that heli screenshot.
Probably in the hills, a little more North than those two buildings.

EDIT : I think I got something.
Could it say 'Von Crastenburg' ?
This name appeared before in GTA IV, see here :
Von Crastenburg Family on GTA Wiki


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#5607

Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

^^ Yes, that is Chateau Marmont.

The radio mast is just right of the telescopes though.

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#5608

Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE (SergioBel @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 14:53)
[...]

I don't think it's the same mast. The mast is just next to the telescopes while the supposed one is more isolated in the desert.

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#5609

Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:57 PM Edited by lxr, 25 November 2012 - 07:34 PM.

QUOTE (Fido_le_muet @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 14:15)
QUOTE (SergioBel @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 14:53)
[...]

I don't think it's the same mast. The mast is just next to the telescopes while the supposed one is more isolated in the desert.

In the sea even... so for now I assume it's just a glitch.


Regarding your screens... I don't know if you're striving for total completeness, but in case you do, here's some more stuff to mark up (you're probably aware of most of it anyway):

10 Downtown from the East: Centennial Mills, Fox Plaza (?)

44 Industrial: Water Tower, maybe some of the towers in the distance

45 Downtown: Westin Bonaventure

49 Downtown from North: Centennial Mills, Gerald Desmond Bridge, Capitol Records, Sheraton LAX, Hilton LAX, maybe more (west of Equitable Life)

50 Downtown: Standard Hotel

52 Downtown from North-East: Popeye's Chicken, maybe some of the buildings from 17 Old Los Santos

54 Harbor: Centennial Mills, Equitable Life, maybe more towers (Fox Plaza?)

And then there are some marginal shots still missing, like this one, this one, this one, this one, this one or this one.

EDIT: Fixed links.


QUOTE (Fido_le_muet @ Saturday, Nov 24 2012, 14:03)
EDIT : I think I got something.
Could it say 'Von Crastenburg' ?
This name appeared before in GTA IV, see here :
Von Crastenburg Family on GTA Wiki

I'd say you got it!

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#5610

Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

user posted image

Back to the Observatory, IRL Griffith Park is on the same hill as the Hollywood Sigh, but as was seen in the helicopter screenshot with the vinewood sigh the hill does not appear to have the park. Even the terrain doesn't match, as the screenshot of the Observatory the grass is green with plenty trees while the helicopter screen shows a less grass more desert, no trees kinda thing. they might of moved the observatory closer downtown (or to a completely different spot like in SA but that's highly doubtful.) or it could be in the place where it is in real life (Scaled, that is) which seems logical. do any of you agree. . . .?




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