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Northren Ireland who owns them you decide ?

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Irviding
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#31

Posted 23 January 2012 - 08:53 PM

QUOTE (leaflinks @ Sunday, Jan 8 2012, 11:01)
QUOTE (glenn tha killer @ Sunday, Jan 8 2012, 13:51)
I think now that it should be left the way it is.

How long do you think that would remain that way?

Do you think that the Irish state would ever be in a position like Israel? Sort of having a defensive military strategy towards the North? That would be a twisted possbility for those that want an independent England.

But that question cannot be answered unless the Union between England, Scotland and Nothern Ireland changes, and not forgetting the English-Welsh union.

Why would they ever need a defensive military strategy? I don't think the problem is state vs. state, as in UK vs Irish Republic, but simply factional violence. The idea that it would become a warzone between the UK and Ireland is just nonsensical.

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#32

Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:02 AM

I am unashamedly a Republican. The majority of my ancestry is Irish, I have close relatives who reside there and I frequently visit the island. It is very much a second home to me after Scotland, so I care about it a fair deal more than other countries.

Loyalism has always struck me as a belief system with a basis in sheer paranoia. Fears that a united, independent Ireland would be nothing more than a Papal pawn. Or that Protestants and/or Ulster Scots will face persecution at the hands of an Irish Catholic majority. Several hundred years ago I would accept this as a valid argument; Protestants and settlers certainly were at times persecuted because of their ethnicity/religious conviction, and the Catholic Church very much commanded the loyalty of its adherents. However, this argument is invalid, and has been for some time. The 1798 rebellion saw the United Irishmen strive for an independent Ireland, and was characterised by co-operation between Catholics and Protestants. This desire for harmony and unity between the religious sects was made symbolic with the creation of the tricolour - it still amazes me how ignorant many seem to be of the meaning of the flag. In short, I view loyalism as irrational and based on pure fear. There is no reason why loyalists in the six counties could not retain their religion, heritage or traditions as part of an united Ireland in my mind, moreso nowadays than ever before.

Fundamentally, Northern Ireland is a colony. One of, if not the oldest of Britain. That the majority of its denizens wish to remain part of the United Kingdom is fairly irrelevant to me; the state was arbitrarily created to ensure a loyalist majority, thus diminishing the credibility of any appeal to democratic principles. The UK ought to cede the territory to the Irish Republic, but I understand that this will not occur without a democratic precedent. At least now there exists a situation where Irish Catholics in the north do not face state-sanction persecution and inequality, which can hopefully be built upon.

I think it is inevitable that we will see Irish re-unification, and likely within our lifetime. The oft-cited reason is the higher Catholic birth-rate, and while this undoubtedly will have an impact, it alone will not be enough. The end of The Troubles has enabled the Republican movement to begin trying to win over loyalists to the notion of Irishness and unity. There is already some suggestion this is occuring. Increasing numbers of Protestant youth consider themselves 'Irish or Northern Irish' rather than 'British' (I cannot recall the exact figures but will happily dig them up if anyone is interested.) As we saw in 1798, and with other movements such as the Irish Parliamentary Party, Protestants and Catholics in Ireland can be united behind a shared identity and desire for independence. I see no reason why this could not occur again.


Irviding
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#33

Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:10 AM

But straz - what about self determination? I have Irish people in my family too who try to go on about how it should be part of the republic. My sympathies tend to lie with the UK on this issue because, very simply, the people there have time and time again decided to remain part of the UK. Even if they identify themselves as Northern Irish, you have a very clear distinction - they are happy with the UK and don't want to be part of the republic. I mean people went after the British since Wilson's 14 points about self determination for their territories, and now they are essentially being asked to ignore it. It's just nonsensical.

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#34

Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:12 AM

Im from the Republic and Im a true Irish man and I even say UK, even though it should be part of Ireland. I mean why should UK own six counties of another island when colonisation is long gone?

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#35

Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:25 AM

QUOTE (SWOT @ Monday, Jan 23 2012, 20:12)
Im from the Republic and Im a true Irish man and I even say UK, even though it should be part of Ireland. I mean why should UK own six counties of another island when colonisation is long gone?

Why should the US own Hawaii? Why should we own Alaska? Why should Russia own Sakhalin?

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#36

Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:32 AM

I don't have a great understanding in regards to the Northern Ireland dispute, however I do find myself feeling sympathetic towards the Irish. They practically suffered a similar fate to my people, therefore I feel I can relate with the Irish in terms of historical atrocities.

Here's an interesting quote by Roger Casement who was an Irish Revolutionary.

I know of two tragic histories in the world - that of Ireland and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented. - Roger Casement (Irish Patriot, executed by the British in 1916)

Here's another quote of interest:
"The moral failure of Turkey, her inability to govern her Christian Peoples is only the pretext: but just as the moral argument brings its strange revenges and shows an Ireland that has suffered all that Macedonia has suffered, and this at the hands of Christians, and not of Moslems, so the triumph of the Balkan Allies, far from benefiting Britain must in the end react to her detriment."

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#37

Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, Jan 24 2012, 01:25)
QUOTE (SWOT @ Monday, Jan 23 2012, 20:12)
Im from the Republic and Im a true Irish man and I even say UK, even though it should be part of Ireland. I mean why should UK own six counties of another island when colonisation is long gone?

Why should the US own Hawaii? Why should we own Alaska? Why should Russia own Sakhalin?

who said they should?

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#38

Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:48 PM

QUOTE (glenn tha killer @ Wednesday, Mar 7 2012, 16:12)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, Jan 24 2012, 01:25)
QUOTE (SWOT @ Monday, Jan 23 2012, 20:12)
Im from the Republic and Im a true Irish man and I even say UK, even though it should be part of Ireland. I mean why should UK own six counties of another island when colonisation is long gone?

Why should the US own Hawaii? Why should we own Alaska? Why should Russia own Sakhalin?

who said they should?

You necro'd a two month old thread for that? If you're going to revive dead threads, at least contribute something worthwhile.

Irviding
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#39

Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:58 AM

QUOTE (glenn tha killer @ Wednesday, Mar 7 2012, 10:12)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, Jan 24 2012, 01:25)
QUOTE (SWOT @ Monday, Jan 23 2012, 20:12)
Im from the Republic and Im a true Irish man and I even say UK, even though it should be part of Ireland. I mean why should UK own six counties of another island when colonisation is long gone?

Why should the US own Hawaii? Why should we own Alaska? Why should Russia own Sakhalin?

who said they should?

Because the people that live there are American and want to be American. Same with all the US territories overseas.

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#40

Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:42 PM

Very interesting reading guys.

I'd like to see Britain hand over Northern Ireland. It's a romantic notion embedded in me since I was a child growing up in Ireland.

It's very complex and it wont be easy and may never happen. I'm lucky that 'the troubles' would not have effected me directly. I can't really comment, living my 'sheltered' life in the republic.

I've met some very nice people from both sides of the fence that just want the violence to stop. I wish everyone could be a winner.

Wow, I sound like such a hippy. ph34r.gif

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#41

Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:29 PM Edited by Themanwiththeplan, 30 March 2012 - 07:33 PM.

We could sit here for weeks and discuss this but in truth people will always have their own opinion of the situation. I live in Northern Ireland and as I sit typing this a police helicopter is hovering not far from my house. Why? Because there is rioting going on 3 miles from where I live.

Why is there rioting I hear you ask? Well because today, two IRA terrorists who shot and killed a policeman, were brought to justice in court and sentenced to prison. So parts of the Republican community in the town that I live in are out in force. So far 4 vehicles have been hijacked and burnt out and its only the early evening. It will get worse during the night and indeed over the weekend.

To some republicans these two men were freedom fighters, but to Loyalists they are terrorists. There will always be two sides and its not something we can ever fix/cure/whatever.

In my opinion they are terrorists, worse than Al Qaeda, scum of the earth, prison is too good for them, they should be shot. Most people do view these people that way these days, even most of the republican community which is proved by the leader of the republican movement condemning the killing and attending the funeral of the murdered police officer. It is just small parts of the community that still see these disgusting things (I say things because IMO they don't deserve to be called humans) as freedom fighters, fighting for a cause.

Northern Ireland sure has moved on a lot and is continuously getting better, but I really can't see a way to completely remove these extremists from our society.

[EDIT] Here's a link to the news story about the trial of the police officer if you guys want to read it.

Irviding
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#42

Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Themanwiththeplan @ Friday, Mar 30 2012, 14:29)
We could sit here for weeks and discuss this but in truth people will always have their own opinion of the situation. I live in Northern Ireland and as I sit typing this a police helicopter is hovering not far from my house. Why? Because there is rioting going on 3 miles from where I live.

Why is there rioting I hear you ask? Well because today, two IRA terrorists who shot and killed a policeman, were brought to justice in court and sentenced to prison. So parts of the Republican community in the town that I live in are out in force. So far 4 vehicles have been hijacked and burnt out and its only the early evening. It will get worse during the night and indeed over the weekend.

To some republicans these two men were freedom fighters, but to Loyalists they are terrorists. There will always be two sides and its not something we can ever fix/cure/whatever.

In my opinion they are terrorists, worse than Al Qaeda, scum of the earth, prison is too good for them, they should be shot. Most people do view these people that way these days, even most of the republican community which is proved by the leader of the republican movement condemning the killing and attending the funeral of the murdered police officer. It is just small parts of the community that still see these disgusting things (I say things because IMO they don't deserve to be called humans) as freedom fighters, fighting for a cause.

Northern Ireland sure has moved on a lot and is continuously getting better, but I really can't see a way to completely remove these extremists from our society.

[EDIT] Here's a link to the news story about the trial of the police officer if you guys want to read it.

Very interesting case. If you don't mind me asking, I notice you use the rarely seen Northern Ireland flag as your flag picture on GTAF. Do you think there is a distinct Northern Irish identity up there?

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#43

Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:26 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Friday, Mar 30 2012, 21:29)
QUOTE (Themanwiththeplan @ Friday, Mar 30 2012, 14:29)
We could sit here for weeks and discuss this but in truth people will always have their own opinion of the situation. I live in Northern Ireland and as I sit typing this a police helicopter is hovering not far from my house. Why? Because there is rioting going on 3 miles from where I live.

Why is there rioting I hear you ask? Well because today, two IRA terrorists who shot and killed a policeman, were brought to justice in court and sentenced to prison. So parts of the Republican community in the town that I live in are out in force. So far 4 vehicles have been hijacked and burnt out and its only the early evening. It will get worse during the night and indeed over the weekend.

To some republicans these two men were freedom fighters, but to Loyalists they are terrorists. There will always be two sides and its not something we can ever fix/cure/whatever.

In my opinion they are terrorists, worse than Al Qaeda, scum of the earth, prison is too good for them, they should be shot. Most people do view these people that way these days, even most of the republican community which is proved by the leader of the republican movement condemning the killing and attending the funeral of the murdered police officer. It is just small parts of the community that still see these disgusting things (I say things because IMO they don't deserve to be called humans) as freedom fighters, fighting for a cause.

Northern Ireland sure has moved on a lot and is continuously getting better, but I really can't see a way to completely remove these extremists from our society.

[EDIT] Here's a link to the news story about the trial of the police officer if you guys want to read it.

Very interesting case. If you don't mind me asking, I notice you use the rarely seen Northern Ireland flag as your flag picture on GTAF. Do you think there is a distinct Northern Irish identity up there?

By up there I assume you mean Northern Ireland? Yes there is. There is just as much Loyalists in Northern Ireland as Republicans. Difference is, Loyalists are completely happy that the troubles are over and that we have a peace process. On the other hand, a few Republicans still think that they have a right to this country and that the way to achieve a "United Ireland" is through violence and bombs.

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#44

Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:17 PM

Who do you believe there are more of? (i.e. loyalists or republicans)

What about those people who want to have a totally independent Northern Ireland?

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#45

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:46 PM

For me when it comes to Northern Ireland becoming independent I look at it in the same way I do with Scotland becoming independent, if they have the resources and believe they can do things for themselves I say go for it.

But on another hand when it comes to Northern Ireland, for me and mostly my dad, it comes down to very personal matters. You see a friend of my dad was caught in one of the many IRA bomb attacks in London, luckily he survived. Not to mention the fact that the IRA were responsible for many other bomb attacks all around Britain that took many lives and were also responsible for the assassination of Lord Mountbatten and others on board the Shadow V. And so handing independence would in a way be like kicking dirt in the eyes of the lost and their families.

confused.gif

I don't know, it's all very confusing and I believe this debate will carry on going long after other debates have finished.

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#46

Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:24 PM

The Republican movement does not seek Northern Irish independence; they want re-unification with the Republic of Ireland. The notion of independence for NI is held by fringes of the Loyalist community.

The IRA and its offshoots do not equate the entire Republican movements, and vice versa. It's unfair to base rejection of the case for unification on the actions of Republican paramilitaries. They fought a guerilla war against the British. People die in wars, and atrocities occur, it's the nature of the beast. There's no point trying to ascertain who 'was worse' because that's simply a counter-productive and illogical way to look at things. The PIRA were not an extremist group who enjoyed supported from the fringes; they were widely supported by Republicans for a long time, and viewed as the legitimate defenders of the Irish Catholic community in NI, justified in their actions.

Like Themanwiththeplan said, your opinion on this is fairly steadfast. You are born into your side, you don't choose it based on much consideration. But even still, I do think Irish re-unification is inevitable.




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