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UK Plan to Increase Motorway Speed

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Andrew
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#1

Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:40 AM

It seems this must be the most sensible suggestion to come out of our Government for a while, increasing the speed limit from 70MPH to 80MPH on the motorway.

I'm all for this as I quite regularly travel above 70, just keeping up with the flow of traffic. Very few people seem to stick to 70MPH on the motorway.

The excuse given by people against this seem to be the normal stuff given with cars, more lives at risk and think of the environment etc. Though surely these people should know that it is a legal limit, it doesn't mean you have to drive it.

Speed is normally a factor in accidents, but isn't necessarily the cause. Poor driving is, if you are not confidence at that speed, then don't drive at it or perform risky manoeuvres that you're not confident with.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-15116064

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#2

Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:54 AM

I agree with almost all of what you've said. The simple fact of the matter is this- excess, illegal speed is the primary cause of something like 8% of accidents. As you've quite rightly said, most individuals exceed the speed limit on motorways already, so all the legislation is set to do is decriminalise the activities of the majority. The "oh, increasing the speed limits will cause more casualties" argument doesn't fly as these speeds are being done routinely by most motorway drivers and accident rates continue to fall. The only feasible argument against it is the environmental one, and even that's not a completely proven case- increase in speed limits may well decrease congestion, therefore reducing traffic jams in which cars continue to emit pollutants whilst having no forward momentum- in itself posing a far greater increase in pollution than permitting vehicles to drive a little faster.

Personally, I don't think there's any empirically proven link between vehicle speed and accident rates. Take Germany, for instance, who have de-restricted autobahns and yet one of the lowest average motorway casualty rates in the world. Contrast with the United States, which has 65mph speed limits on all major roads but comparatively high accident rates. At the end of the day, the primary cause for accidents is driver error and driving "too fast for the conditions". That's not the same as exceeding an arbitrary speed limit, no matter what idiotic organisations such as BRAKE may try and say. I know many roads on which it would, traffic and weather conditions permitting, be safe to exceed 100 miles per hour on a quite regular basis- in fact, people quite commonly do. That road now has large warning signs all down its length informing people that there have been "23 casualties in 10 years" on it. That's 2.3 casualties a year. I know car parks with a higher accident rate than that.

As I've said before, speed itself isn't inherently dangerous or harmful. Driving too fast for environmental conditions, or outside of ones training, experience and comfort is.

Andrew
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#3

Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:02 PM

I think organisations like Brake would like us to all drive at 30MPH everywhere whilst encased in some form of protection foam. I fully agree driver error is the cause, I drive a 60 mile round trip everyday to get to work and back. Which involves 20 miles of motorway and 10 mile of city driving, I'm far more at risk in the city then I am on the motorway.

The motorway speed limit is one I've never quite understood as our current road speed is something like this:

National (Dual Carriage Ways / Motorways) 70MPH
Single Carriage National 60MPH

That has never made sense to me that a motorway with a lot longer slip roads and more lanes is the same speed as a dual carriage way that has shorter slip roads and only two lanes. Not to mention I can do 60 down a small country lane because it's national.. Only 10MPH less than a nice straight three lane motorway.

Poor driver judgement of the situation is the cause of accidents.

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#4

Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:12 PM

QUOTE (Andrew @ Friday, Sep 30 2011, 13:02)
That has never made sense to me that a motorway with a lot longer slip roads and more lanes is the same speed as a dual carriage way that has shorter slip roads and only two lanes. Not to mention I can do 60 down a small country lane because it's national.. Only 10MPH less than a nice straight three lane motorway.

Unmarked roads (commonly referred to as C roads) are almost entirely NSL, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to drive down them at the speed limit. My history on the issue is a little fuzzy, but I believe that the 60mph NSL was introduced considerably after the 70mph limit on motorways, which came in in the 60s and which has been speculated over for almost 50 years with regards to changing it.

This is an interesting aside related to my earlier post, shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia

QUOTE (Wikipedia)
In 2008 14% of collisions reported to the police had a speed related contributory factor (either "exceeding the speed limit" or "travelling too fast for conditions")

So that's 86% of motoring accidents with no relation to speed in any circumstances, either exceeding the speed limit or driving too fast for the conditions. Think that says it all, really.

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#5

Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:13 PM

Now I wish, Canada would do the same. Our speed limits on our highways are lower than the Americans! We drive at 100km per hour, which is equal to 62 miles per hour. This is f*cking bulllsh*t! Plus add the fact that the majority of drivers on our highways go at least 20 over the limit.

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#6

Posted 30 September 2011 - 04:34 PM Edited by Lurch, 30 September 2011 - 04:37 PM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Friday, Sep 30 2011, 07:54)
Contrast with the United States, which has 65mph speed limits on all major roads but comparatively high accident rates.

The US varies. In cities out east, it's 55. Rural areas, it's 65 or 70 depending on the county. Usually 70 though. Out west, cities are usually 60 or 65. Rural areas are usually 75. There's a few 80 mph zones in a few Texas highways.

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#7

Posted 30 September 2011 - 05:22 PM

Yeah most euro speed limits on motorways are 120/130 kph. Well over 70 mph.

I don't see any real convincing arguments for not increasing the speed limit in the U.K.

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#8

Posted 30 September 2011 - 06:03 PM

The only argument i can think of against this is that most people already exceed the 70mph limit and do 80-85mph, so when it goes to an 80mph limit then people will be exceeding that bu a further 10-15mph.

I'm all for it though, i tend to drive around 80 at the moment so it's a good thing i can do it legally, i also feel comfortable driving above 100mph but i rarely do that because A. My car is a small engined escort that wasn't designed for high speed driving and B. just because i feel i'm capable of driving at high speeds, there's still going to be some soft twat not paying attention who pulls right out infront of you.

I was going about 115mph downhill on the motorway because it was clear of cars, i was in the outside lane just cruising when up ahead in the slow lane i saw a corsa indicating to overtake a truck, i thought i'll be okay here because it's only going to use the middle lane, i was wrong. The stupid c*nt driving pulled into the middle lane and for no obvious reason pulled right out infront of me in the fast lane forcing me to undertake them. I have no idea why somebody would do that though, the middle lane was f*cking clear but for some reason they crossed two lanes, i went into hulk mode raging and then got overtaken by a Gallardo that made me look like i was doing 30mph so it made me happy again.

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#9

Posted 01 October 2011 - 01:51 AM

Well there is already (and has been for a long time) a 10% "tolerance" zone. Basically making 77mph acceptable. And bear in mind that it is a well known fact among policymakers that if the limit is 70 then it will always be slightly exceeded. If it is increased to 80 mph then that is likely to be slighly exceeded also? Or maybe not. Perhaps there will be less tolerance for exceeding 80 mph. Maybe making an 80 limit might mean less strain on british traffic courts.

Most modern vehicles on british roads are easily capable of cruising safetly at 80 and over. Perhaps passing this law might make justification for tightening MOT laws or stricter emission controls an easier argument to win in the near future. There may well be some other reason for bringing this up around now. Even with the current petrol prices the UK government would likely be very happy if taxpayers were burning more gas and paying more tax revenue.

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#10

Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:08 AM

Whilst reading the BBC comments, a lot were mentioning what the rush is, and that journey times are only decreased by something like ten minutes. However what these people fail to realise, is that the ten minutes helps me avoid an extra 30 minutes on to my total journey as a result of hitting city centre traffic. Unless I leave extremely early, I have some extremely strict timings to keep to, otherwise I'll end up with a massively increased journey time.

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#11

Posted 01 October 2011 - 01:02 PM Edited by Darlomidge, 01 October 2011 - 01:07 PM.

QUOTE
Well there is already (and has been for a long time) a 10% "tolerance" zone. Basically making 77mph acceptable. And bear in mind that it is a well known fact among policymakers that if the limit is 70 then it will always be slightly exceeded. If it is increased to 80 mph then that is likely to be slighly exceeded also?


Agreed. It's well known that when Police Offers are doing speed checks they simply ignore those doing around that speed from around 77mph to 80mph anyway. So by upping the speed limit to 80mph, will it therefore be acceptable for people to travel at 87mph-90mph? If thats the case, we could have a serious problem with fatalities on the roads.

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#12

Posted 09 October 2011 - 04:26 PM

Won't make much difference, the speed limit is 85 really

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#13

Posted 09 October 2011 - 04:30 PM

QUOTE (Daniel4 @ Sunday, Oct 9 2011, 17:26)
Won't make much difference, the speed limit is 85 really

Depends, really. If you blow past an unmarked car at 80 in the driving rain or heavy fog, your going to get pulled. People band about the 10%+3mph thing, but at the end of the day it's entirely at the volition of the officer involved. Police guidelines suggest 10% leeway but that's not a hard-and-fast rule or any kind of defence. Remember, there are other penalties besides speeding- driving without due care, careless driving or dangerous driving- and these can all be used even if you are travelling well below the designated speed limit.

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#14

Posted 09 October 2011 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, Oct 9 2011, 16:30)
QUOTE (Daniel4 @ Sunday, Oct 9 2011, 17:26)
Won't make much difference, the speed limit is 85 really

Depends, really. If you blow past an unmarked car at 80 in the driving rain or heavy fog, your going to get pulled. People band about the 10%+3mph thing, but at the end of the day it's entirely at the volition of the officer involved. Police guidelines suggest 10% leeway but that's not a hard-and-fast rule or any kind of defence. Remember, there are other penalties besides speeding- driving without due care, careless driving or dangerous driving- and these can all be used even if you are travelling well below the designated speed limit.

Of course, if someone is driving dangerously, they're driving dangerously

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#15

Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:56 AM

Really this whole thing is a non-issue and just mentioned by the Tories as a distraction to the poor state of the worldwide economy.

Wether they change it or not people who want to drive at 80 still will and those who want to drive slower still can. I drive the appropriate speed for the conditions, the limit is a suggestion of what should be safe the majority of the time.

My prediction, none will remember the suggestion in a month and nothing will change.

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#16

Posted 10 October 2011 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (JayC @ Monday, Oct 10 2011, 10:56)
Really this whole thing is a non-issue and just mentioned by the Tories as a distraction to the poor state of the worldwide economy.

Wether they change it or not people who want to drive at 80 still will and those who want to drive slower still can. I drive the appropriate speed for the conditions, the limit is a suggestion of what should be safe the majority of the time.

My prediction, none will remember the suggestion in a month and nothing will change.

A very cynical attitude, but probably accurate. It's interesting to see that the Tories are giving the motorist some leeway, though, after over a decade of them being mercilessly punished for no discernible reason by Labour.

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#17

Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:45 PM

Labour did love to f*ck us but I don't see motoring in the UK getting any better in the future. Theres no way the Tories will lower taxes on gas or VED as it brings in far too much cash to give up.

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#18

Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE (JayC @ Monday, Oct 10 2011, 23:45)
Labour did love to f*ck us but I don't see motoring in the UK getting any better in the future. Theres no way the Tories will lower taxes on gas or VED as it brings in far too much cash to give up.

They've already cancelled out Labour's increase in fuel duty and passed new legislation shutting down rogue clamping organisations in the UK. VED isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things, not compared to the compulsory purchase tax on cars bought elsewhere in Europe.

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#19

Posted 11 October 2011 - 12:39 PM

True but they also introduced the law that makes it illegal to have an uninsured car with tax on it which punishes those with rarely used second cars who would buy day insurance as now you need to reinsure, go buy tax, and then apply for a refund on the tax the next day.

I didn't know about the clamping as thats been completely illegal in Scotland for years.

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#20

Posted 11 October 2011 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE (JayC @ Tuesday, Oct 11 2011, 13:39)
True but they also introduced the law that makes it illegal to have an uninsured car with tax on it which punishes those with rarely used second cars who would buy day insurance as now you need to reinsure, go buy tax, and then apply for a refund on the tax the next day.

There's already a mechanism for people who have uninsured vehicles kept off the road for occasional use- SORN. Regardless, you'd be a bit of an idiot to keep a car taxed but not insured on a property unless it was declared SORN- people can still steal it, or it could still be damaged by flooding or other natural disasters. It's still perfectly legal to keep a car uninsured but taxed, just not legal to have it parked or stored on a public highway- only on private property.

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#21

Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:49 AM

In my area, Virginia, highway/interstate speed limits are mostly 55-60. If I'm going 65 then I'm being blocked by someone. My average speed is anywhere from 70-95. The 90's might be a bit excessive, but that's a rare-ish occasion. However, if you can go 70-75 on an interstate and maintain control/proper following distance, etc. You really don't need to be behind the wheel.

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#22

Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:09 PM

What I'm worried about is not too high speeds, I'm worried about too slow cars.

Britain is seemingly not caring about about good german cars, over here people drive crappy Ford Ka's, Renaults and any type of Fords, except Mustangs. All of those and even Vauxhalls make me cry. And ALL those car owners make situations andrew mentioned.

Makes me want to go back to USSR with all those badass E34 BMWs..

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#23

Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:29 PM

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Tuesday, Nov 1 2011, 21:09)
What I'm worried about is not too high speeds, I'm worried about too slow cars.

Britain is seemingly not caring about about good german cars, over here people drive crappy Ford Ka's, Renaults and any type of Fords, except Mustangs. All of those and even Vauxhalls make me cry. And ALL those car owners make situations andrew mentioned.

Makes me want to go back to USSR with all those badass E34 BMWs..

They'll all top the tonne, though. Even Ford KA's will. I've had 103 on the clock out on an old 1.3 boat-anchor powered KA. Besides, how about Cosworths? Focus RS and STs? GTs and GT40s? ST220s? They'll all out-gun anything but the top-spec E34s. And whilst I agree that they're more likely to be driven by morons, you can't assume they're all driven badly. Anyway, there are load of E34s around here, but the majority of them are driven by drug dealers with relatively low aspirations, or the elderly.

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#24

Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:50 PM

80 miles per hour is not that much, I think it's good that limits for you will be increased smile.gif Here in Poland we have 140 km/h limit on highways (which is ~87 miles). It was changed this year, in past years it was 130 km/h ( ~81 miles), but the amount of accidents did not raise. Besides almost everyone in Poland drives much faster that the limits allow to biggrin.gif 93-100 mph (150-160km/h) is rather normal. Traffic on highways is not that large, they are too expensive so more people drive on normal roads.

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#25

Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Darecki @ Tuesday, Nov 1 2011, 21:50)
80 miles per hour is not that much, I think it's good that limits for you will be increased smile.gif Here in Poland we have 140 km/h limit on highways (which is ~87 miles). It was changed this year, in past years it was 130 km/h ( ~81 miles), but the amount of accidents did not raise. Besides almost everyone in Poland drives much faster that the limits allow to biggrin.gif 93-100 mph (150-160km/h) is rather normal. Traffic on highways is not that large, they are too expensive so more people drive on normal roads.

I've driven in Poland. Your drivers are f*cking lethal. No wonder your fatal accident rate is about five times higher than that of the UK.

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#26

Posted 03 November 2011 - 08:00 PM

You don't find assholes in UK, in UK people drive their cars in the ways they weren't meant to.

I've met some 40 year olds which won't accept the fact (they never knew anyway) that you lose grip while driving in rain.

Driving with them is horrific because they drive slow only in dry conditions and in other times their average speed is 70 mph on sharp corner roads.

My cousin has cosworth escort, I never thought anybody could class them higher than usual Ford Galaxies in which you just can't understand how they're so uncomfortable to ride in.

Excuse me on GTs, I rarely mention cars I've never seen in life, but yeah, take it on par with Mustang, but on fact E34s being driven by assholes?

What you can do when you see an Audi infront of you? They need to be in a place where your exhaust's smoke could be smelt in high amounts. So far this hasn't been a good excuse to be told to Polish cops, but at least compared to UK, repairing crashed cars is a cheap thing in Poland and other eastern europe countries.

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#27

Posted 03 November 2011 - 08:30 PM

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Thursday, Nov 3 2011, 21:00)
You don't find assholes in UK, in UK people drive their cars in the ways they weren't meant to.

This contradicts itself, no?

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Thursday, Nov 3 2011, 21:00)
I've met some 40 year olds which won't accept the fact (they never knew anyway) that you lose grip while driving in rain.

Driving with them is horrific because they drive slow only in dry conditions and in other times their average speed is 70 mph on sharp corner roads.

And? I don't quite see what your point is? "Some people are sh*t drivers". Yes, that's a given. There are plenty of them in the UK. There are even more in continental Europe, and more still in Eastern Europe, IMO. Poland is the only country I've seen lorries drag-racing on single-carriageway roads. I've also saw Lithuanian lorries overtaking long lines cars into oncoming traffic at at least 90 miles per hour. Like I said, there's a reason the fatality rate is 5 times that of the UK.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Thursday, Nov 3 2011, 21:00)
My cousin has cosworth escort, I never thought anybody could class them higher than usual Ford Galaxies in which you just can't understand how they're so uncomfortable to ride in.

Put simply, I don't believe you. Are you saying that Cosworths are slow, but E34s aren't? An Escort Cosworth will out-drag an E34 M5 all day, every day. Even the 340-odd bhp 3.8 is slower to 60 than an Escort Cosworth in standard form. And very few are still in standard form. I don't think I've ever been in one with less than 350bhp- which is good for 0-60 in around 4 seconds. Try getting that kind of performance out of an E34 for a reasonable price.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Thursday, Nov 3 2011, 21:00)
Excuse me on GTs, I rarely mention cars I've never seen in life, but yeah, take it on par with Mustang, but on fact E34s being driven by assholes?

Still don't quite get what you are saying? Yes, E34s are often driven by idiots. Why? Well, they're dirt cheap, they're BMWs- with all the attention and attitudes that that implies- and they're comparatively cheap to run. Apart from M5s, that is, which chew through the self-levelling rear suspension system at a rate that's barely believable. Of course the attract undesirable people, poor drivers and the like. Just watch any episode of something like "Road Wars". Seemingly every week there's an E34, usually in red, being driven by some numpty and getting pulled over for all manner of absurd motoring offenses. There are some that are enthusiast owned, but they have a very strong whiff of council estate about them these days.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Thursday, Nov 3 2011, 21:00)
What you can do when you see an Audi infront of you? They need to be in a place where your exhaust's smoke could be smelt in high amounts. So far this hasn't been a good excuse to be told to Polish cops, but at least compared to UK, repairing crashed cars is a cheap thing in Poland and other eastern europe countries.

Again, your stereotyping. I drive an Audi, and I always use my mirrors, indicators, and drive at a speed that's suitable for the conditions and traffic. And the cheap, dodgy repairs that you get in Eastern Europe are part of the problem- the quality of the repairs is astonishingly low. One my mates works out there, and the ostensibly quite tidy E36 he bought had been in such a massive crash that the owner had fitted a a Weitec coilover and 20mm spacer to the nearside so that the front still sat straight. Basically the shock mount was twisted to the point that he had to run a 40mm drop on one side of the car, and a 2cm spacer, just to make the car sit level. That's absolutely lethal.



Sorry, but I'm not going to listen to driving opinions from someone not old enough to drive!

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#28

Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:31 PM

I did not say Cosworth is a slow car, it's uncomfortable and made from cheap materials.

Lithuanian lorries doing 90mph?
I know that most get 110khp without limiters and empty semis, but 150kmh is what a usual sedan would pull when overtaking a lot of slow cars. This made me laugh.

The only reason why E34s are cheap is because they are old. My father bought it brand new before I was born at 38k pounds and now it has RHD conversion done to it.

It's one of rare makers that can pull their cars working until their parts are £5 bucket and still not needimg them.

What I don't like in Audis and Fords is even if you wax their underbody each six months, they will still manage to rust. (This is not based on UK conditions, but Poland's)

Kinda reminds me of jokes about Opel's rusting making the natural ambient sound of autumn.

Oh, I'm sorry, should've mentioned Vauxhall instead.

P.S. Assholes are the "lorries" drag racing in Poland, as you mentioned, but with people in UK it's different, my note on rain driving is the exact explanation.

P.P.S. I won't take your remark on my age in consideration, as I've driven cars for 3 years constantly and 5 years with tractors on fields.
And also I have EU provisional licence, which is starting at age of 16 instead of UK's 17.

It makes you seem ignorant, but everybody makes mistakes.

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#29

Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:24 PM

E34's are old? My car must be prehistoric then.

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#30

Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Friday, Nov 4 2011, 17:31)
I did not say Cosworth is a slow car, it's uncomfortable and made from cheap materials.

No, your original comment was about people driving "slow cars", and when I pointed out the Escort Cosworth, you objected. I'll agree, they're uncomfortable (but no more uncomfortable than any modern BMW on run-flat tyres) and the interiors are certainly cheap, but the drive-train and engine aren't. Hence why 500bhp+ is fully possible on the stock block and pistons.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Friday, Nov 4 2011, 17:31)
Lithuanian lorries doing 90mph?
I know that most get 110khp without limiters and empty semis, but 150kmh is what a usual sedan would pull when overtaking a lot of slow cars. This made me laugh.

I've been overtaken by a Lithuanian plated lorry doing more than 80mph in the UK, let alone abroad. I've actually got some footage of an LT plate and a PL plate lorry having a drag-race down a winding road in the Italian Alps. Simple fact of the matter is that many HGVs are capable of topping the tonne, and easily capable of 90+mph with a sufficient run-up or a healthy downhill slope. Just because it's not happened to your in your few months of driving doesn't mean it's not happened to me in my nearly-10-year of it.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Friday, Nov 4 2011, 17:31)
The only reason why E34s are cheap is because they are old. My father bought it brand new before I was born at 38k pounds and now it has RHD conversion done to it.

Yes, but that doesn't in any way counter my argument that they're driven predominantly by individuals who have bought them, on the cheap, for the BMW badge as a status symbol rather than as an enthusiast driver. In fact, as we've seen here with all BMWs as they start to drop into what I affectionately refer to as "council estate territory", they are increasingly driven by the kind of people you wouldn't trust in an old Metro. We've even seen it with E36 generation M3 Evolutions (particularly in drop-top form) and E46 generation 330i and 300d coupés around here- they're increasingly the bastion of the body-kits-big-wheels-and-bin-bag-blacked-out-glass brigade.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Friday, Nov 4 2011, 17:31)
It's one of rare makers that can pull their cars working until their parts are £5 bucket and still not needimg them.

PAH. That's all I can say about that. I've owned two BMWs myself, and one joint owned with a mate as a track car, and in none of them have been particularly reliable or cheap to maintain. My 328i Sport enjoyed eating its front suspension springs every 20,000 miles or so; the O2 sensor on my 318iS went twice in the year I had it, along with every ABS wheel speed sensor in anti-clockwise order, and replacing the cracked BBS wheel on the former car cost £250 without a tyre.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Friday, Nov 4 2011, 17:31)
What I don't like in Audis and Fords is even if you wax their underbody each six months, they will still manage to rust. (This is not based on UK conditions, but Poland's)

I can assure you that Audis rust no worse than BMWs of the same era. My 318iS was two years older than my S4 an had about five hundred times as much rust on it in terms of area. Scarcely a day goes by when I don't see an E36 with one of the rear arches disintegrating through rot.

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Friday, Nov 4 2011, 17:31)
P.P.S. I won't take your remark on my age in consideration, as I've driven cars for 3 years constantly and 5 years with tractors on fields.
And also I have EU provisional licence, which is starting at age of 16 instead of UK's 17.

It makes you seem ignorant, but everybody makes mistakes.

Um, might I point out that you are lying here? The EU sets a 18-year-old minimum age for class B drivers (source here) so there's no way you've ever driven on the road legally as Poland isn't one of the listed nations with an exemption to that rule under EU legislation. Put simply, your either driving illegally- in which case, your an idiot and deserve everything that comes your way, or your a liar. I've been driving for approaching 10 years now in cars, with 3 or so on bikes too, averaged about 20,000 miles a year across both, done a bit of competitive motorsport, and driven all round Europe. So forgive me if I scoff at the opinions of someone who can't have spent more than a few dozen hours driving on the road in their lifetime, and can't have driven on it at all legally.




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