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A very serious discussion about GTA3 beta pre 911

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ccrogers15
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#1

Posted 07 September 2011 - 09:12 AM Edited by ccrogers15, 07 September 2011 - 09:18 AM.

I have been thinking lately about this.
You all know gta 3 was majorly changed due to the 911 attack.
Like missions were cut, the dodo plane was changed to be very hard to fly... etc.

But, what if 911 never happened?
You all know those 2 holes and construction going on in liberty city on staunton island in GTA 3. Well, do you think those where the twins? Well cause, if the attacks did not happen, where would the twins of been? Cause according to the image here:
user posted image

There would be no location for the world trade center. But LC is based on new york. So where would they of been?

Here is my edit to make the world trade center fit:
user posted image

So to me, this does not make since. Why in the BETA gta 3, which was created before 911, not include the world trade center? Then after, those zones are altered and changed major like, then 2 holes where added near the upper tip...
----
Then with the final map:
user posted image
There is still no WTC and this would also be before 911. However those 2 holes remain.
I want to discuss this please.

And i recommend saving and zooming into the maps to see my placements of the WTC.

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#2

Posted 07 September 2011 - 11:14 AM

III era LC was more of an infusion of major East Coast and rust belt cities than a direct interpretation of New York City, hence Rockstar returning to recreate a heavily geographically correct take on the NY boroughs for IV. I don't think the Staunton construction site was a placement for the WTC at all. The location simply didn't demand the placement of two massive structures.

That said, I think the bearing of any changes on the final product - from what I would imagine to be the Houser brothers point of view at least - would have been down to the very grim reality that was cast before them over the innocence of cartoon violence, not that they planned to include plane attack missions, blowing up buses full of children, the towers and so on in the first place.

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#3

Posted 07 September 2011 - 11:43 AM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 07 September 2011 - 08:57 PM.

I could be wrong but I think if world trade center esque structures were to exist in the GTA III Era universe they would have definitely been present in Liberty City Stories. And as Tyla said Liberty City in the III era is only partly based on New York.

Secondly I'm pretty sure this topic is in the wrong section.

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#4

Posted 07 September 2011 - 09:01 PM

I believe that the twin towers were too much of an iconic feature not to have in the game. AndI think the Staunton island construction site is probobly where they would of been. And the reason why they weren't in LCS is because you would of had to destroy them to correspond with 3's version of the city and that would of been too controversial. Because the reason the construction site is there is because Toni Cipriani blew up what was little Italy in 1997.

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#5

Posted 07 September 2011 - 11:17 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Sep 7 2011, 11:43)
I could be wrong but I think if world trade center esque structures were to exist in the GTA III Era universe they would have definitely been present in Liberty City Stories. And as Tyla said Liberty City in the III era is only partly based on New York.

Secondly I'm pretty sure this topic is in the wrong section.

how would they be in LCS?
Gta III was in development in 1999-2001. The world trade center would have been in gta iii possibly if 911 never happened. But due to 911 things changed. Since they were not in GTA III for that reason, how would they be in LCS when it came out in 06? The story of those holes were decided in lcs. But i believe beta gta III had those holes as the twins.

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#6

Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:12 AM

I think ground zero is in IV.

If you go to the construction site in The Exchange, Algonquin, (the same one used in Deconstruction For Beginners) it shows two massive concrete areas in particular.

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#7

Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:44 AM

QUOTE (Linki @ Thursday, Sep 8 2011, 00:12)
I think ground zero is in IV.

If you go to the construction site in The Exchange, Algonquin, (the same one used in Deconstruction For Beginners) it shows two massive concrete areas in particular.

This area would actually be the future location of the Imperial Amir Towers, two huge, solid gold and precious jewel encrusted structures to tower over the skyline of Castle Gardens. You can see the plans for the development in Yusef's apartment during a cutscene I believe. The two plots are simply for the construction of the Amir Towers, nothing more.

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#8

Posted 08 September 2011 - 01:10 AM Edited by gtamann123, 08 September 2011 - 02:08 AM.

QUOTE (Tyla @ Thursday, Sep 8 2011, 00:44)
QUOTE (Linki @ Thursday, Sep 8 2011, 00:12)
I think ground zero is in IV.

If you go to the construction site in The Exchange, Algonquin, (the same one used in Deconstruction For Beginners) it shows two massive concrete areas in particular.

This area would actually be the future location of the Imperial Amir Towers, two huge, solid gold and precious jewel encrusted structures to tower over the skyline of Castle Gardens. You can see the plans for the development in Yusef's apartment during a cutscene I believe. The two plots are simply for the construction of the Amir Towers, nothing more.

Maybe that is Rockstar's subtle joke about the construction of the Freedom tower? Maybe they are making a joke that is nothing more than a greedy construction project initiated by a middle eastern? (Yusuf)

Edit: I actually think it's more likley that Rockstar is joking that the Freedom tower is just America showing off it's wealth to the rest of the world. Like how Yusuf is showing off his by building such a large tower

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#9

Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:48 AM Edited by Magic_Al, 08 September 2011 - 02:51 AM.

I'm extremely skeptical that the twin towers were ever meant to be in any version of Liberty City.

In GTA III, if the towers were recreated full scale, they'd be too massive to fit anywhere in the Staunton Island street grid. If the entire WTC complex was recreated it would be pretty much the whole downtown. Heck I'd argue even if 9/11 never happened, GTA IV would look crowded with the twin towers, because the Empire State Building would be right next to them -- there's no space between midtown and downtown because Algonquin is a fraction of the size of Manhattan. GTA III is much smaller.

GTA III was released October 22, 2001. Rockstar New York headquarters couldn't have done anything the first week after the attack because people were in shock and the city was a disaster area. The game needed 3-4 weeks after Gold Master for testing and distribution before launch. That means there were at most a couple weeks to review the game and make edits with 9/11 in mind. It would have been impossible to make major architectural changes without breaking the game. They didn't change that much.

As for GTA IV, the Yusuf Amir's construction site resembles in location and footprint Manhattan's South Ferry terminals.

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#10

Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:26 AM

QUOTE (Magic_Al @ Thursday, Sep 8 2011, 02:48)
I'm extremely skeptical that the twin towers were ever meant to be in any version of Liberty City.

In GTA III, if the towers were recreated full scale, they'd be too massive to fit anywhere in the Staunton Island street grid. If the entire WTC complex was recreated it would be pretty much the whole downtown. Heck I'd argue even if 9/11 never happened, GTA IV would look crowded with the twin towers, because the Empire State Building would be right next to them -- there's no space between midtown and downtown because Algonquin is a fraction of the size of Manhattan. GTA III is much smaller.

GTA III was released October 22, 2001. Rockstar New York headquarters couldn't have done anything the first week after the attack because people were in shock and the city was a disaster area. The game needed 3-4 weeks after Gold Master for testing and distribution before launch. That means there were at most a couple weeks to review the game and make edits with 9/11 in mind. It would have been impossible to make major architectural changes without breaking the game. They didn't change that much.

As for GTA IV, the Yusuf Amir's construction site resembles in location and footprint Manhattan's South Ferry terminals.

but if 911 never happened im sure rockstar would of made the map of gta iv bigger to fit it all...
and someone made a mod for the twin towers in gta iii and they fit perfect near callahan bridge.

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#11

Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:11 AM

Thats why GTA IV cant let the player fly planes, because it is reseble New York

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#12

Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:48 PM

As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You claim that R* had planned WTC and located an approximate area of its location. But what's your evidence? (A guess is not evidence) Were you here before the release of GTA III? Have you checked the official website? Screenshots? Videos? If you can actually show that the towers actually existed instead of drawing a box on a map, then we all would be more convinced.

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#13

Posted 09 September 2011 - 04:33 AM

i never said they were there. I was starting a discussion about the possibility and why they would not of been there.

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#14

Posted 09 September 2011 - 04:46 AM Edited by spaceeinstein, 09 September 2011 - 04:52 AM.

Oh, I mistook your drawings as guesses at its existence. You have incorrectly stated what were changed since 9-11 so I just glanced over everything else. Like others said above, LC wasn't a replica of NYC. LC didn't have the majority of the landmarks from NYC, let alone WTC. Why should WTC take priority over other landmarks? The landmarks that are based on NYC's are extremely basic, like Bedford Point barely looking like Times Square.

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#15

Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:47 AM

Moved to GTA III section .

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#16

Posted 10 September 2011 - 12:11 AM Edited by Orgasmic Orange, 10 September 2011 - 12:13 AM.

I read in a book called "All Your Base Are Belong To Us" in which one of the Houser brothers was interviewed, that changes to the final game are as follows: no elderly peds with walkers, no school children as peds, no usable school bus, no LC equivalent of the Twin Towers, new LAPD colouring for the Police Cars, no more Darkel as well. Also [possibly]no more usable planes other than the Dodo and no more plane hijacking. Also heard that one of Darkel's cut missions that wasn't given to a different player but entirely cut was to fly the Dodo into the Love Media Building...

The Housers were living in Manhattan at the time and the events deeply affected them.

Also blowing limbs off was removed from only the PS2 version of the game by default. The cheat code used to revert this is the only code in the game which does not notify.

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#17

Posted 10 September 2011 - 12:38 AM

QUOTE (Orgasmic Orange @ Saturday, Sep 10 2011, 01:11)
I read in a book called "All Your Base Are Belong To Us" in which one of the Houser brothers was interviewed, that changes to the final game are as follows: no elderly peds with walkers, no school children as peds, no usable school bus, no LC equivalent of the Twin Towers, new LAPD colouring for the Police Cars, no more Darkel as well. Also [possibly]no more usable planes other than the Dodo and no more plane hijacking. Also heard that one of Darkel's cut missions that wasn't given to a different player but entirely cut was to fly the Dodo into the Love Media Building...

The Housers were living in Manhattan at the time and the events deeply affected them.

Also blowing limbs off was removed from only the PS2 version of the game by default. The cheat code used to revert this is the only code in the game which does not notify.

I think you just told us a list of everything we/I already know, except for the elderly peds with walkers section. Everything else is old though haha.

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#18

Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:43 PM

WTC bombing was a setup. Government blocked release of this game - it's simple. Now Rockstar can't say nothing because of fear.

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#19

Posted 10 September 2011 - 07:58 PM

R* actually had the exact same idea of 9/11 in their game, by Darkel. You was forced to destroy One tower which Donald Love was in with a dodo, then when u was about to hit the towers, you jump out and the towers got destroyed.
Weird how Al Queda thought of the exact same idea as R* o.o
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#20

Posted 10 September 2011 - 08:03 PM Edited by PrometheusX, 11 September 2011 - 09:20 PM.

QUOTE (ManDog @ Saturday, Sep 10 2011, 19:58)
R* actually had the exact same idea of 9/11 in their game, by Darkel. You was forced to destroy One tower which Donald Love was in with a dodo, then when u was about to hit the towers, you jump out and the towers got destroyed.
Weird how Al Queda thought of the exact same idea as R* o.o

I think Bin laden was working with them, but suddenly they fired him, so he planned to crash the planes to the WTC to ruin the game. monocle.gif

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#21

Posted 18 September 2011 - 06:52 PM Edited by Magic_Al, 18 September 2011 - 07:10 PM.

QUOTE (Orgasmic Orange @ Friday, Sep 9 2011, 18:11)
I read in a book called "All Your Base Are Belong To Us" in which one of the Houser brothers was interviewed, that changes to the final game are as follows: no elderly peds with walkers, no school children as peds, no usable school bus, no LC equivalent of the Twin Towers, new LAPD colouring for the Police Cars, no more Darkel as well. Also [possibly]no more usable planes other than the Dodo and no more plane hijacking. Also heard that one of Darkel's cut missions that wasn't given to a different player but entirely cut was to fly the Dodo into the Love Media Building...

The Housers were living in Manhattan at the time and the events deeply affected them.

Also blowing limbs off was removed from only the PS2 version of the game by default. The cheat code used to revert this is the only code in the game which does not notify.

The book doesn't actually go into quite that much detail on the edits. You can read the whole 9/11 section here

The book lists these changes:
QUOTE
Rockstar immediately removed any vestige of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers from the game. They changed the paint on the police cars from NYPD blue and white to LCPD black and white. And they completely excised a character who was an activist hell-bent on bringing down Liberty City's economy.

Nothing about planes or walkers or children. But it does confirm that there were twin towers in the game.

user posted image

They couldn't make big changes to the map in a couple weeks. The quick fix would have been to replace the towers with different looking buildings. The Jefferson Street Credit Union Building, the tallest building in GTA III, was probably twin towers in the pre-9/11 version of the game. The towers were probably only approximate like the Empire State Building, but close enough. The Jefferson Street Credit Union Building has a strange, irregular footprint, like the modelers merged the two towers and maybe a third building analogous to WTC3 (Marriott) into one big building and altered the footprint. The complex includes a plaza with an abstract sculpture, as the WTC did, although the sculpture bears no close resemblance and maybe never did. It's just kind of similarly arranged. At least, it's hard to believe there would have been a WTC somewhere else in Liberty City and this building there too.

user posted image

It's hard to guess exactly what the twin tower footprints might have been, but this is a possibility. I'm not going to try to guess the footprint of a possible WTC3 analogue in the northwest corner, but the entrance to the credit union as it is now may have been derived from that. I'm considering that the other building on the south end of the block is pretty elaborate, and so is the plaza with the sculpture. Those were probably not last-minute jobs. I think the post-9/11 changes are the credit union building, possibly the position of the skywalk on the north side, and the positions of trees.

EDIT: Also possible is that the building that's on the south end now was moved from a position between the towers. That gives the towers more credible space between them and I like it better.

user posted image

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#22

Posted 18 September 2011 - 11:14 PM

There are beta shots showing the construction site before 911. There was never the WTC in gta3.

Stop trying to add to gta3s history 10 years after the game came out, I dont know why people still make up so much bullsh*t about the game.

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#23

Posted 19 September 2011 - 02:20 AM

QUOTE (OnePiece @ Sunday, Sep 18 2011, 17:14)
There are beta shots showing the construction site before 911. There was never the WTC in gta3.

Stop trying to add to gta3s history 10 years after the game came out, I dont know why people still make up so much bullsh*t about the game.

My post just above yours, I quoted a book written by this guy who interviewed Sam Houser for hours and specifically covered 9/11 and what got changed in GTA III. I didn't think the WTC was in the game either, even in my posts earlier in this thread, but a guy who was able to ask the man himself says there was.

If we accept that fact, then the questions are, where was it, and what could they have done to change it in a few weeks between 9/11 and the game going gold master. It would have taken too long to create the construction site, and the construction site is used in missions which would also take too long to make. No f'ing way could that be put together in a couple weeks. The Jefferson St. Credit Union replacing the twin towers is the only theory that fits or makes sense.

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#24

Posted 19 September 2011 - 12:27 PM

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image


There was NO WTC in GTA3.

Nem Wan
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#25

Posted 20 September 2011 - 02:11 AM

It's a conspiracy! They changed the old screenshots to hide the truth! Kidding. I stand corrected. Nice beta screen collection.

On a more serious note, 10 years ago right now, little more than a week after 9/11, it was possible that GTA III could have been cancelled altogether. Rockstar New York headquarters is in the part of Manhattan that was closed off for several days. It was literally a war zone. In the state of terror it was possible to believe no one would want to play a game like GTA again.

The book says the Houser brothers watched the attacks from an apartment on Thompson Street. Of course you can find videos of the attack shot from many places in the city, including Thompson Street. video.

Sometime in the next couple weeks is the 10th anniversary of Rockstar's decision to carry on with business, a decision everyone who was terrorized that day had to make at their own speed, that it would be OK to continue and try to get normalcy back.
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#26

Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:25 PM

Honestly, the thing I find most chilling is that the missions Rockstar had planned for GTA III that were later removed were actually similar to what happened that day...

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#27

Posted 22 September 2011 - 01:49 AM

They could have been in an even earlier build of the game.

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#28

Posted 22 September 2011 - 02:28 AM

The loch ness monster could have been in the earliest build of gta3, who the f*ck knows, the point is there is no proof.

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#29

Posted 22 September 2011 - 03:04 PM

I think that WTC was definately in an earlier build of this game. Like around 2000 or something.

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#30

Posted 22 September 2011 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Sep 7 2011, 11:43)
I could be wrong but I think if world trade center esque structures were to exist in the GTA III Era universe they would have definitely been present in Liberty City Stories. And as Tyla said Liberty City in the III era is only partly based on New York.

Secondly I'm pretty sure this topic is in the wrong section.

There are a lot of discussions on 911 lately.

The staunton construction site as there in Beta Map and the Twin towers were supposed to be near Beliville park near the other apartments.

Houser brothers are bit of strange and our knowledge regarding the beta is limited.




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