Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

The Creators Lounge

1,067 replies to this topic
Akavari
  • Akavari

    Gangsta

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2009
  • None

#121

Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:18 PM

I could definitely see the Bulgarin Family acting as their muscle. It makes more sense than the Faustins or Petrovics at least, since Bulgarin originates from overseas on the Adriatic. Timur is like a perfect mirror of Sergei Malatov, too.

Mr. Santo could appear somewhere but I don't think he would be directly involved in anything since he's just a lowly debt collector who preys on the weak. Also since he dies anyway I think it would be a pointless cameo. confused.gif

Feen
  • Feen

    That Special Someone

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2011

#122

Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:34 PM

Hey guys any feedback about my concept thread idea?

Claude4Catalina
  • Claude4Catalina

    being a fag since '07

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 May 2007

#123

Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:45 PM

QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 21:34)
Hey guys any feedback about my concept thread idea?

people will give feedback when they see something to talk about...

and I suppose Santo is a bit too obscure, could use Santo as a characters last name as a nod to him, like the Armando/Elizabeta BOGT thing, things like that bring in a different sense of continunity. PM me once you've got the plan down for the storyline and I'll make additions, adjustments and such, run it by you then want me to get on writing duties?

also, a question of items...what weapons and vehicles do we want? I was thinking we could switched it up a bit and use different skins for certain guns, so the 9mm can be found as a Glock, Beretta or SIG Sauer. introduce a .45 as either a USP or M1911A1 variant; both with 12 round mags to represent the Kimber flush fit M1911 magazines, so on and so forth for weapons, then also introduce other weapons. I just think small caliber arms represent the street warfare, obviously keep the AK's but for some of the game have a bit of pistol warfare.

Feen
  • Feen

    That Special Someone

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2011

#124

Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:59 PM

QUOTE (Claude4Catalina @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 21:45)
QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 21:34)
Hey guys any feedback about my concept thread idea?

people will give feedback when they see something to talk about...

and I suppose Santo is a bit too obscure, could use Santo as a characters last name as a nod to him, like the Armando/Elizabeta BOGT thing, things like that bring in a different sense of continunity. PM me once you've got the plan down for the storyline and I'll make additions, adjustments and such, run it by you then want me to get on writing duties?

also, a question of items...what weapons and vehicles do we want? I was thinking we could switched it up a bit and use different skins for certain guns, so the 9mm can be found as a Glock, Beretta or SIG Sauer. introduce a .45 as either a USP or M1911A1 variant; both with 12 round mags to represent the Kimber flush fit M1911 magazines, so on and so forth for weapons, then also introduce other weapons. I just think small caliber arms represent the street warfare, obviously keep the AK's but for some of the game have a bit of pistol warfare.

but shur Iv given ye stuff to talk about just look above

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#125

Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:42 PM

QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 16:34)
QUOTE
Feen: I think the reason people aren't showing interest for your idea is that you don't really seem to have one. Yes you want to make a story about an African American gangster who returns from prison but you don't really seem to have anything beyond that, even going as far as to ask people to not only name your concept but name the characters aswell. There's just not enough information there to spark any interest.

You should think of your concept topic being similar to a pitch to a movie director (or in this case a games developer) and give people the basic information i.e. what's the basic idea of your concept, who are the characters, where is it set etc. then if people like your pitch they will show interest in it and it will gradually gain popularity. For more information on creating a concept topic check the pinned topic at the top of the main page of this section.


Thanks man I checked that and Iv decided to make a thread about this Afro American guy called Darryl Johnson who will be in Clarence Little's East Holland gang. This gang will also include Clarence Maxwell Caughlin, Barry Lamora and Danny Hatmaker (I know Maxwell and Danny live elsewhere but I can change that slightly). On the other hand, I was thinking of leaving Clarence out and having the gang in Broker but the only problem is that M.O.B already has that covered or else making Darryl part of the North Holland Hustlers.

Other characters will include possibly your Olivia Thompson (still to think of another name) as Darryl's girlfriend, Alfonso VasquezRami Yalon, Mr. Santo Andriy Maximov, Vic Manzano, Shon Kikuchi (who is the leader of a Japanese gang), Stubbs and possibly Darryl's mother (even though Im not too sure whether to add her what do you think). The storyline will involve Clarence's death and the Shifting Weights mission from TLAD buy Im not too sure after that. I got permission to use the Hood Property Heading but I was wondering if the heading should be more original.

I was wondering if anybody has any tips or ideas for me regarding anything?

That's more like it man icon14.gif

As you said I already covered a south Broker gang in my topic but there's not reason why you can't make another South Broker gang for your concept. It would probably be better if you made a topic about a gang in a different part of the city though such as the North Holland Hustlers or Clarence Little's gang, hell you could even make up a totally original gang from Alderney or Dukes or somewhere.

I would agree with what akavari said about using the most wanted characters, that's not to say you shouldn't use the models.. just change the names. Where did that logo come from.. is it from another concept??

Feen
  • Feen

    That Special Someone

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2011

#126

Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:48 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 22:42)
QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 16:34)
QUOTE
Feen: I think the reason people aren't showing interest for your idea is that you don't really seem to have one. Yes you want to make a story about an African American gangster who returns from prison but you don't really seem to have anything beyond that, even going as far as to ask people to not only name your concept but name the characters aswell. There's just not enough information there to spark any interest.

You should think of your concept topic being similar to a pitch to a movie director (or in this case a games developer) and give people the basic information i.e. what's the basic idea of your concept, who are the characters, where is it set etc. then if people like your pitch they will show interest in it and it will gradually gain popularity. For more information on creating a concept topic check the pinned topic at the top of the main page of this section.


Thanks man I checked that and Iv decided to make a thread about this Afro American guy called Darryl Johnson who will be in Clarence Little's East Holland gang. This gang will also include Clarence Maxwell Caughlin, Barry Lamora and Danny Hatmaker (I know Maxwell and Danny live elsewhere but I can change that slightly). On the other hand, I was thinking of leaving Clarence out and having the gang in Broker but the only problem is that M.O.B already has that covered or else making Darryl part of the North Holland Hustlers.

Other characters will include possibly your Olivia Thompson (still to think of another name) as Darryl's girlfriend, Alfonso VasquezRami Yalon, Mr. Santo Andriy Maximov, Vic Manzano, Shon Kikuchi (who is the leader of a Japanese gang), Stubbs and possibly Darryl's mother (even though Im not too sure whether to add her what do you think). The storyline will involve Clarence's death and the Shifting Weights mission from TLAD buy Im not too sure after that. I got permission to use the Hood Property Heading but I was wondering if the heading should be more original.

I was wondering if anybody has any tips or ideas for me regarding anything?

That's more like it man icon14.gif

As you said I already covered a south Broker gang in my topic but there's not reason why you can't make another South Broker gang for your concept. It would probably be better if you made a topic about a gang in a different part of the city though such as the North Holland Hustlers or Clarence Little's gang, hell you could even make up a totally original gang from Alderney or Dukes or somewhere.

I would agree with what akavari said about using the most wanted characters, that's not to say you shouldn't use the models.. just change the names. Where did that logo come from.. is it from another concept??

Ya man, I got the name from moogadamoney on his permission and I planned on using the most wanted characters but changing there names. I want to do a already established gang but I dont know which one. Which one wold you reccomend and do you have any ideas for a more original title or a storyline?

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#127

Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:57 PM

I answered your PM but beyond that I would suggest that you choose the gang with the best potential for a good story.

Feen
  • Feen

    That Special Someone

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2011

#128

Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:58 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 22:57)
I answered your PM but beyond that I would suggest that you choose the gang with the best potential for a good story.

who would you say has the best potential?

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#129

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:01 PM

Do you want me to answer you in this topic or answer your PM??

Feen
  • Feen

    That Special Someone

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2011

#130

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:06 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:01)
Do you want me to answer you in this topic or answer your PM??

would you say its possible that this guy could be the fella in the picture?

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#131

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:06)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:01)
Do you want me to answer you in this topic or answer your PM??

would you say its possible that this guy could be the fella in the picture?

No. This is the guy in the picture. I used the same character in my Code of The Streets topic, he was named D'Angelo Little. LuisBellic also used him in his King of The City topic which had a crossover with Shifting Weight.

Feen
  • Feen

    That Special Someone

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2011

#132

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:25 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:24)
QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:06)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:01)
Do you want me to answer you in this topic or answer your PM??

would you say its possible that this guy could be the fella in the picture?

No. This is the guy in the picture. I used the same character in my Code of The Streets topic, he was named D'Angelo Little. LuisBellic also used him in his King of The City topic which had a crossover with Shifting Weight.

No im talking about the guy beside him in the picture

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#133

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:28 PM

QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:25)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:24)
QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:06)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:01)
Do you want me to answer you in this topic or answer your PM??

would you say its possible that this guy could be the fella in the picture?

No. This is the guy in the picture. I used the same character in my Code of The Streets topic, he was named D'Angelo Little. LuisBellic also used him in his King of The City topic which had a crossover with Shifting Weight.

No im talking about the guy beside him in the picture

That's DeShaun.

Feen
  • Feen

    That Special Someone

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2011

#134

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:28)
QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:25)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:24)
QUOTE (Feen @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:06)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 23:01)
Do you want me to answer you in this topic or answer your PM??

would you say its possible that this guy could be the fella in the picture?

No. This is the guy in the picture. I used the same character in my Code of The Streets topic, he was named D'Angelo Little. LuisBellic also used him in his King of The City topic which had a crossover with Shifting Weight.

No im talking about the guy beside him in the picture

That's DeShaun.

O shur your right thats just stupid of me

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#135

Posted 05 January 2012 - 01:54 AM

QUOTE (Claude4Catalina @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 18:58)
there's an edit button for a reason mate, no need to double post icon14.gif I do like the idea of the inclusion of Santo...I think he could be included as a low level debt collector.

also, with the Greeks, shall we give them mostly Russian muscle? given that I havent played any Trinity recently, would we say the ship is linked to Bulgarin? that way we could justify Russian muscle like Sergie in The Wire...that ugly f*cker. maybe make a counterpart in Timur, Bulgarin's bitch? he seems perfect to whack Zorba. I dont think we should exclusively show Bulgarin but Timur could cameo as Bulgarin's bloodthirsty rep.

If you guys wanted to go full on with the links to the Wire you could have some Polaks working the docks with a possible mob connection. From what I read in real life Greenpoint, Brooklyn has a large Polish community. The LC equivelent of Greenpoint would probably be East Hook or BOABO in terms of location.. would be kind of interesting to introduce a few more demographics to the city to make it more true to life.

Akavari
  • Akavari

    Gangsta

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2009
  • None

#136

Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:12 AM

QUOTE (Claude4Catalina @ Wednesday, Jan 4 2012, 21:45)
also, a question of items...what weapons and vehicles do we want? I was thinking we could switched it up a bit and use different skins for certain guns, so the 9mm can be found as a Glock, Beretta or SIG Sauer. introduce a .45 as either a USP or M1911A1 variant; both with 12 round mags to represent the Kimber flush fit M1911 magazines, so on and so forth for weapons, then also introduce other weapons. I just think small caliber arms represent the street warfare, obviously keep the AK's but for some of the game have a bit of pistol warfare.

I was thinking a machete could be a justified addition since the Dominicans are notorious for using them. I had an idea to replace the trite weapon icon trend, and instead display the weapons' actual in-game models. I'll PM it to you and see how you like it. Otherwise we can just make a table, allowing us for a lot more additions without the liability of providing graphics. If you'd rather this project be less canon than a typical DLC, we could completely overhaul the weapon selection to our liking.

I like more pistols, and I'd like to see a revolver somewhere in the equation, hand-cannon or not. A modest .357 snubnose would be an interesting addition, or even a puny .38 as a prominently used sidearm.
.45 - yes
We should bring back the streetsweeper too, only fixed for realism. Instead of holding 8 shells it would hold 12. It wouldn't be fully automatic but rather reasonably fast semi-auto action.

Claude4Catalina
  • Claude4Catalina

    being a fag since '07

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 May 2007

#137

Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:10 AM

I've always pondered on this, kinda un-GTA but for the sake of realism, is there and autosear on the Striker that you could file down to make it automatic? ala how illegal full auto rifles are made...my knowledge on shotgun operating systems is....pathetic tounge.gif

it'd be awesome if we could do it how you described in the PM you sent me; why dont we see where we stand with weapons once a list has been finalised, then if we can do it with ingame models then go for it; if not stick with the conventional methods?

Akavari
  • Akavari

    Gangsta

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2009
  • None

#138

Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:09 PM

On second thought we could just carry over the streetsweeper in its TLAD form, being fully automatic. I was thinking in addition to the few firearms I suggested in the PM, we could introduce some weapon customization? The 'gun dealer' of the story could sell modified GTA IV weapons as well as the new ones.

Although it's off-topic, I think you'd enjoy this news story I found. tounge.gif

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#139

Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:47 PM

I've got sh*t loads of weapon icons made by myself and others so if you guys are looking for certain icons in particular let me know and I'll see if I have what you're looking for. I know both of you guys are good at making icons yourselves but it'd be good for you to not have to waste your time making one that's already been done.

Spaghetti Cat
  • Spaghetti Cat

    I Love Pony Farming

  • Members
  • Joined: 07 Jan 2009

#140

Posted 05 January 2012 - 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Thursday, Jan 5 2012, 14:47)
I've got sh*t loads of weapon icons made by myself and others so if you guys are looking for certain icons in particular let me know and I'll see if I have what you're looking for. I know both of you guys are good at making icons yourselves but it'd be good for you to not have to waste your time making one that's already been done.

Hey could I get in on that? I've got a pretty standard weapons list since that's usually my least well done section. THanks!


Ammunation

Non-LethalMeleePistolShotgunSMGMachine GunGrenadePowerful
Police BatonKnifeColt CobraRemington 870Mini-Uzi/Tech-9M-1 CarbineMolotov cocktailM-72 LAW
Baseball BatKatanaColt M1911 Browning Auto-5MP-5/10M-16Frag GrenadeFlamethrower
ClubChainsawS&W .357Sawed-off ShotgunTommy GunFN-FALTimed ChargeM-21 Sniper Rifle

Claude4Catalina
  • Claude4Catalina

    being a fag since '07

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 May 2007

#141

Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (akavari112 @ Thursday, Jan 5 2012, 17:09)
On second thought we could just carry over the streetsweeper in its TLAD form, being fully automatic. I was thinking in addition to the few firearms I suggested in the PM, we could introduce some weapon customization? The 'gun dealer' of the story could sell modified GTA IV weapons as well as the new ones.

Although it's off-topic, I think you'd enjoy this news story I found. tounge.gif

as long as it isnt Battlefield 3 type customization, we could get away with it. I mean, every ghetto kid needs a silenced Glock at his side, sh*t even TI was caught with custom guns, I seem to remember it being a knock off AK with a drum mag and an AR-15 pistol with a Beta C as well as a few MAC's...maybe the customization could work like this:

with the 9MM you can buy a suppressor or a 30 round mag, but once your Respect is high enough with the gun dealing homie, he can offer you an auto conversion with includes a 30 round mag as standard.

perhaps start the AK out as a heavy piece, then make a purchaseable carbine conversion, which unlocks it for use during drive bys but lowers accuracy. then once the gun dealer respects you enough, he cops stock of a 70 round drum, making spray and pray a well used cliche.

with the M4, give it a Beta C as it's only addition first, then if our gunsmith buddy if feeling generous and respectful, they can bestow the power of the M203 underbarrel 'nade lobber...meaning if used in conjunction with the Beta C, you pretty much have yourself one mean bullet hose.

I think it should play out like this:

call up gun dealer and arrange location, select the weapon you want and instead of an "are you sure?" box, you get the customization screen, which lists the available options, then you get the "weapon purchased" box.

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#142

Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:38 PM

What I may do when I have the time is create a GTA IV weapon icon database either here or in the GFX section (with a fair usage policy and prior permission from the icon creators) that other people can take from and add to as they create their own weapon icons. I've actually been meaning to do this for a while since there are always requests for GTA IV style icons in the GFX section. What does everybody think?

Claude4Catalina
  • Claude4Catalina

    being a fag since '07

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 May 2007

#143

Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:57 PM

go for it man; I've dabbled in the art myself but nothing too serious. think you could throw together some icons for the custom weapons I suggested? only if me and Aka go through with it obviously.

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#144

Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:22 PM

QUOTE (Claude4Catalina @ Thursday, Jan 5 2012, 22:57)
go for it man; I've dabbled in the art myself but nothing too serious. think you could throw together some icons for the custom weapons I suggested? only if me and Aka go through with it obviously.

Akavari is far better at making icons then me but I already have icons on my PC for some of the weapons you suggested and you can easily stick on a drum magazine from one of the other icons I have to make the Beta C etc.

Akavari
  • Akavari

    Gangsta

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2009
  • None

#145

Posted 06 January 2012 - 12:50 AM

QUOTE (Claude4Catalina @ Thursday, Jan 5 2012, 22:37)
as long as it isnt Battlefield 3 type customization, we could get away with it. I mean, every ghetto kid needs a silenced Glock at his side, sh*t even TI was caught with custom guns, I seem to remember it being a knock off AK with a drum mag and an AR-15 pistol with a Beta C as well as a few MAC's...maybe the customization could work like this:

with the 9MM you can buy a suppressor or a 30 round mag, but once your Respect is high enough with the gun dealing homie, he can offer you an auto conversion with includes a 30 round mag as standard.

perhaps start the AK out as a heavy piece, then make a purchaseable carbine conversion, which unlocks it for use during drive bys but lowers accuracy. then once the gun dealer respects you enough, he cops stock of a 70 round drum, making spray and pray a well used cliche.

with the M4, give it a Beta C as it's only addition first, then if our gunsmith buddy if feeling generous and respectful, they can bestow the power of the M203 underbarrel 'nade lobber...meaning if used in conjunction with the Beta C, you pretty much have yourself one mean bullet hose.

I think it should play out like this:

call up gun dealer and arrange location, select the weapon you want and instead of an "are you sure?" box, you get the customization screen, which lists the available options, then you get the "weapon purchased" box.

I guess the only things that would make sense reasonably are silencers and extended/drum magazines. Shooting an AK47 out the window one-handed sounds a bit far-fetched, even if it was chopped down. We could have an M203 but I think that might detract from the realism. On second thought lets just skip customization and keep it simple; add a few new low-tier weapons and we're okay.

Tommy.
  • Tommy.

    MUFC

  • The Yardies
  • Joined: 01 May 2011
  • England

#146

Posted 06 January 2012 - 09:51 AM

Who thinks that I should bring back my Hillside Blood DLC? But this time you play as Badman rather than a made up guy. I'm thinking of totally re-doing it.

Boris The Vodka
  • Boris The Vodka

    [Y]es

  • The Yardies
  • Joined: 03 Dec 2010
  • Russia

#147

Posted 06 January 2012 - 10:00 AM

I saw it, Tommy. It's always a pleasure for me to look at and read well constructed concepts, so I think it's a good idea if you'll revive it.

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

    Mack Militant

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2009

#148

Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE (Tommy. @ Friday, Jan 6 2012, 09:51)
Who thinks that I should bring back my Hillside Blood DLC? But this time you play as Badman rather than a made up guy. I'm thinking of totally re-doing it.

As I said before I think you should indeed revive it. In my veiw though Badman would a terrible idea for a protagonist since you wouldn't be able to understand a word he says. Best off just sticking to your original formula I reckon.

Huang Leroy
  • Huang Leroy

    A.K.A. YungLive201

  • Members
  • Joined: 30 Mar 2009
  • United-States

#149

Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:59 PM Edited by YungLive201, 11 January 2012 - 12:08 PM.

I need some help coming up with a fictional name for Delaware, for the purpose of naming a county and a river within my Alderney State project. Any one have any ideas?

EDIT: 3 days and a page later.........Hmm, guess not.

Tommy.
  • Tommy.

    MUFC

  • The Yardies
  • Joined: 01 May 2011
  • England

#150

Posted 07 January 2012 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Friday, Jan 6 2012, 14:40)
QUOTE (Tommy. @ Friday, Jan 6 2012, 09:51)
Who thinks that I should bring back my Hillside Blood DLC? But this time you play as Badman rather than a made up guy. I'm thinking of totally re-doing it.

As I said before I think you should indeed revive it. In my veiw though Badman would a terrible idea for a protagonist since you wouldn't be able to understand a word he says. Best off just sticking to your original formula I reckon.

Your right, I'll stick with the character I had on my old one icon14.gif




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users