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Grand Theft Auto: Family Ties

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Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

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#691

Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:39 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 19 February 2016 - 05:37 PM.

 

Now that you mention it though eliminating the competition from the Spanish Lords does actually fit in with what I had in mind. Basically the backstory of Capra's car ring is that he initially has Carlo steal the cars for him before using his connection to Stevie who enlists the help of Niko to steal them instead. This goes above and beyond the story but my long term idea was that over time Capra moves his operation into Boulevard in Bohan (which would now be open territory) and starts using the cars as a front for smuggling in heroin from overseas and shipping it elsewhere. This is why his crew is seen hanging out in that compound opposite the tennis courts in Chinatown Wars. The scheme is based on a mixture of one in the 1970s run by Gambino soldier Roy DeMeo (who also provided the initial inspiration for Capra's character) and another one seen in the movie The French Connection where the mafia are shipping heroin overseas packed into the frames of cars. The movie as a whole is also an obvious inspiration for the opening sequence of GTA IV which has members of the Triads filling a car with Heroin and it being lifted down onto the dock as another car speeds into view. Coincidentally, in keeping with CTW, Capra's scheme is also one involving the Triads, with the Midtown Gangsters acting as dealers and hitmen on the streets. Involving Fredo Volpe and Gerald McReary would put the job under certain time constraints but I don't see why he couldn't work for Stevie alongside Gordon (since the two seem to be friends). Up until now I tried to not step on Akaviri's toes regarding Blood and a Four Leaf Clover but this policy would kind of need to be changed if I were to have you work with Gordon. He has got ample reason to be involved in it though so I'm really in two minds as to whether to include him or not. In order to make it work Carlo would also need to have met Stevie previously so I might make the missions choice dependent like the ones in GTA IV by having them only open up if you choose to spare Mark Volpe in Chapter 14 and meet up with Stevie at the garage when you collect his car.

 

I've actually been working on a Roy DeMeo character for a while now (coincidentally with Steven Van Zandt as a character picture, though I'm sure you're aware of the uncanny resemblance between the two) sourcing a lot from the car theft racket you mention -- mainly the overseas connection to Kuwait, where I'd have containers return with heroin smuggled in by a shady Golden Triangle figure -- and relationship with the Westies (McRearys) in regards to it. Of course this now interests me a whole lot more as it's becoming obvious you've thought out even the most fleeting plot points extensively. :O

 

To tell you the truth I honestly thought you based Jimmy Capra on Anthony Mirra but I can see an amalgamation of the two in his appearances as the ultimate nasty bastard, with Mirra being notorious for his attacks on hookers and unsuspecting civilians. Some of the inspiration in this still astounds me.

 

Though I can't speak for Akavari (and I hope he's still around to confirm) but I'm sure it's been bought up before and the feeling was we shouldn't restrict each other in using them. I am hopeful you'll run with the Stevie and Gordon idea; it's the perfect opportunity to expand on a briefly alluded connection, which the two of you are famous for.

 

Something else I think is worth considering after I've had another read through is the Chapter 15 (Part 3) news story of "Slick Vic" Conti being involved in a war over territory in Alderney. Would I be right in saying this is over the events of Payback? I actually not long completed this mission and one thing I noticed is that the Pavanos seem to use the Irish Mob as muscle out of Auto Eroticar.

 

Now with Slick Vic looking like a pretty mean waterfront operator I'm thinking of adding to the initial idea and suggesting instead of a dock shootout with the Spanish Lords, the Messinas go the diplomatic route (using Carlo's negotiation skills) and conspire to a partnership with the Pavanos for use of the Alderney waterfront to ship their cars. Instead of tearing up the dock, Carlo and Gordon would sever Pavano ties (Slick Vic's condition of doing business) with the Spanish Lords once a deal is cemented between the families on by shooting up the Fan Dang Club in Alderney City and simply making them a casualty. What do you think?

 

I'm also a big fan of your ideas for building a personal motivation for Nino's favor mission and although you don't want to give too much up at the moment, I'm really looking forward to how that one turns out. For a minor character we've seen so far I have the feeling you imagine giving him a substantial amount of depth that probably puts most the cast of GTAV to shame.

 

Yes you're right the original character description is based mostly on that of Anthony Mirra.. I just never really got around to changing it. As previously mentioned my interest in the mob had only just been sparked when I started this topic so I didn't really have the depth of knowledge to make the biographies unique. In some cases I literally just ripped off the backstory of a real life mobster and changed a handful of details. With Jimmy Capra I wanted to create a depraved loose cannon type of enforcer but as the character evolved he started to morph into DeMeo a little bit more, he's not completely based on DeMeo though... he's moreso the product of a what if scenario i.e. what if Roy DeMeo's son Albert followed him into the life of crime. How would his father's murder effect him and would he try to set himself apart from the legacy he left or follow pretty closely in his footsteps. In Jimmy's case the murder of his his father Alberto (based more closely on DeMeo) effected him pretty deep psychologically in his late teens and he began to strive to be just like the father he had lost at a crucial time (just when he was on the cusp of manhood). On top of this Alberto was a violent man both in and out of the home and he would frequently abuse his wife and son. This abuse then also carried over into school where he was teased for having a father who was a convicted felon. His mother would have picked up on this and in turn (despite him asking her not to) she would have told his father who would have told him not to be such a sissy and simply beat the sh*t out of those who were teasing him, possibly even arming him with the pocket knife he used in order to stab people. This ill treatment would have not only made him incredibly angry and turned him into a bully himself but would have also made him incredibly tough. This is why he's so desperate to be seen as such a big tough guy when he's around other mobsters. Remember how nice he was to Carlo in their one on one interactions for example? His whole personality is essentially driven by an intense desire to be liked and feared in equal measures. Resemblances aside I felt that Steven Van Zandt (or rather Silvio Dante) was perfect for the role because not only does he have the ability to play both light and shade, we've also seen how he can be when he loses his temper. Actually come to think of it I should really redo that backstory :)

 

As far as Slick Vic and the Pavanos go.. yes you would be right in saying that the story refers to the mission Payback.. not only Payback but the whole Pegorino-Pavano conflict starting with Pegorino's Pride. My thoughts on the proceeding events is that the two families would have worked alongside each other for years with the Pavanos controlling part of the Jersey docks (like the Genoveses in real life) and Pegorino "letting" them run their shylocking business there too. In reality however I'm thinking that they treat Pegorino as nothing more than an errand boy. I can see the Pavanos having a good relationship with the Ancelottis dating back to the 1960s due to their former Boss Giuseppe Pavano originating from Naples just like Giovanni Ancelotti and his deceased uncle Giorgio so I'm thinking that the Pegorinos ongoing attacks would have given the Pavanos good reason to strike back in support of their much weaker allies, or at least that would be their excuse. In reality they would have been looking for a way to force the Pegorinos out of Alderney for years so that they could seize their territory (which they eventually do).

 

Now that we've gotten the exposition out of the way. I have to say yes I do think your idea could work but maybe some elements of your previous idea could also carry over. What if the Spanish Lords were operating out of the docks and cutting the Pavano Family in on their action. They get pissed off when you eliminate their source of income but eventually agree to migrate their allegiances to you if you can finish what you started and eliminate the Spanish Lords once and for all - in order to alleviate them of the burden of having to step in and mitigate the conflict on their behalf. The logic being that The Messinas are offering them a better deal (due to the added profits of shipping the heroin) but the Spanish Lords are unpredictable and they aren't going to take too kindly to the Pavanos simply telling them they're out and will suspect that the two families are cahoots against them (which they essentially are). Do you think this could work or is a bit to convoluted??

 

As a side note I've actually already started into bringing these favors missions into fruition by making a list of characters and unlock points in the Mini Games and Side missions section on Page 1. You may notice that I have added two previous undiscussed characters to the list namely Sharon Morton and Butch the Boxer from Chapter 9. The reason I haven't mentioned them previously is that I literally only came up with them last night. Basically my ideas for the two characters are these:

 

Butchy has started reflecting on his life after you beat the living sh*t out of him and now wants to leave his mark on the world by becoming an entrepreneur. Turns out the punch drunk bastard wants to set up a chain of Juice carts around the city and wean everybody off of their addiction to junk food. The first step in his hairbrained scheme is to have you somehow destroy all of those fairly useless hotdog carts around the city to clear out some prime locations for his healthy new offering.

 

Sharon on the other hand has found herself in a spot of bother due to opening her legs for every two bit gangster she meets. It turns out that her new ex boyfriend has been sleeping with another whore behind her back. But Sharon isn't about to stay mad, she wants to get even. Turns out the sleazeball in question is a pretty successful coke dealer and he keeps a stash of money in a locker at the Grand Easton Terminal. The only problem is he always keeps the key on his person meaning that you must figure out a way to get it somehow. The most direct option would just be to kill him and take it but Carlo refuses to validate the assumption that he has feelings for Sharon by killing her boyfriend, stating that this is "strictly business". As it turns out though Sharon has another plan. The man in question frequently visits a seedy Chinatown bath house where he gets a special rub down from a very gifted "masseuse". The very nature of the service requires him to be naked, meaning that his clothes (and the key) must be left in a nearby locker room. Carlo must sneak in there and steal it from him without anybody noticing and then bring it to Sharon who insists that you drive her to the station so that she can show you her gratitude, hopefully by giving you part of the stash.


Tyla
  • Tyla

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#692

Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:12 AM

The favors missions are looking fantastic so far man. And yes we're definitely on the same track with the Pavano/Spanish Lords thing. :^:

 

Both the favors for Butch and Sharon are pretty ingenious plots and make for missions that break the mold. It's funny because Gino's juice thing reminds me of Espresso 2 Go from GTAIII... and it's f*cked up to think how long ago (but how recent it feels!) street corner coffee became the 'new' thing. Safe to say both Butchy and Sharon end up millionaires!!

 

Are you done for favor character/mission suggestions for now or would you still be looking for more?

 

Yes you're right the original character description is based mostly on that of Anthony Mirra.. I just never really got around to changing it. As previously mentioned my interest in the mob had only just been sparked when I started this topic so I didn't really have the depth of knowledge to make the biographies unique. In some cases I literally just ripped off the backstory of a real life mobster and changed a handful of details. With Jimmy Capra I wanted to create a depraved loose cannon type of enforcer but as the character evolved he started to morph into DeMeo a little bit more, he's not completely based on DeMeo though... he's moreso the product of a what if scenario i.e. what if Roy DeMeo's son Albert followed him into the life of crime. How would his father's murder effect him and would he try to set himself apart from the legacy he left or follow pretty closely in his footsteps. In Jimmy's case the murder of his his father Alberto (based more closely on DeMeo) effected him pretty deep psychologically in his late teens and he began to strive to be just like the father he had lost at a crucial time (just when he was on the cusp of manhood). On top of this Alberto was a violent man both in and out of the home and he would frequently abuse his wife and son. This abuse then also carried over into school where he was teased for having a father who was a convicted felon. His mother would have picked up on this and in turn (despite him asking her not to) she would have told his father who would have told him not to be such a sissy and simply beat the sh*t out of those who were teasing him, possibly even arming him with the pocket knife he used in order to stab people. This ill treatment would have not only made him incredibly angry and turned him into a bully himself but would have also made him incredibly tough. This is why he's so desperate to be seen as such a big tough guy when he's around other mobsters. Remember how nice he was to Carlo in their one on one interactions for example? His whole personality is essentially driven by an intense desire to be liked and feared in equal measures. Resemblances aside I felt that Steven Van Zandt (or rather Silvio Dante) was perfect for the role because not only does he have the ability to play both light and shade, we've also seen how he can be when he loses his temper. Actually come to think of it I should really redo that backstory :)

 

I think I've said this before but Jimmy Capra has always been one of my favorite characters in this concept and probably the one I was looking forward to seeing most in the story. Your post here sums up exactly why. A lot of Mafia characters and the lifestyle tend to be over romanticized. It tends to be avoided what shapes these men into who they are and I'm glad you've never shied from this aspect. In this way I think Family Ties makes the best case for a Mafia centered story because the sheer diversity of how the street level (also the bosses and higher-ups) are portrayed. I notice this sort of back story isn't exclusive to Jimmy Capra but a theme of sorts throughout the entire story so far... a number of the characters who appear are basically born into the life:  going through the biographies they have fathers who were part of the families and in most cases were murdered. An irony of this (I don't know if intended) is that most of them tend to end up dead themselves -- Sammy Bottino's random encounter briefly reflects on this. It raises a clever question of family ties in general if the other characters had sons, do we think they would introduce them into the life, with us having seen the top and bottom of life with Liberty City's five families. I forget if it was Castellano or someone else I read about, but I remember a 70s or 80s era wiretap discussion going something like:

 

"Would you make your sons?"

"No. Maybe ten years ago. Maybe ten years from now. But not now. Not with the dope."

"The Colombos all make their kids."

 

And how did the Colombos end up? Even the Ancelottis in this concept. Most of them are dead or doing life. In the case of the organization things probably turn out best for in the end -- the Pavanos (with I think their basis being the Genoveses) -- few to none of the main characters from that family seem to have been born into it opposed to the least powerful of the families: the Lupisellas and Ancelottis. If we contemplate how things probably turn out for Jimmy beyond the events of this story, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine he ends up in the can and whacked (like Roy DeMeo) in case he talks to the feds, despite the tough bastard he's proven to be.

 

You got these guys personalities down to a tee, though especially Jimmy Capra. The Mirra thing is something I initially picked up through the personality traits you mentioned... and the way Mirra was known for being fearfully intimidating likely being because he was so close to Carmine Galante, another wildly unpredictable nutcase. It impresses me how you cultivated the same atmosphere in Carlo's interactions with Jimmy, and he's probably become a favorite of mine because your attention to developing personalities through dialogue makes me identify him with the few mobsters I've researched.


Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

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#693

Posted 20 February 2016 - 01:42 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 03 March 2016 - 02:05 PM.

I've tried not to base any of my characters on just one person. For example Jimmy Capra is based on a little bit of Mirra, a little bit of DeMeo, a little bit of Tommy DeSimone (as played by Joe Pesci) and a little bit of "Shorty" Spero all mixed with a helping of Van Zandt as Silvio Dante. The good thing about using a lot of characters who were mentioned in GTA IV is that there is a good bit of background information for me to expand upon contained within their profiles on the LCPD database. Not surprisingly however my own favourite characters are those which I have created completely from scratch. The fact that many of them have older relatives in the mafia is something that was done intentionally not to be lazy but in order to represent the real life mafia whereby the general rule is if you have family in the mob you're pretty much destined to become a member yourself. It wasn't that intentional that all of these characters seem to die though.. that's just kind of something that comes with the life. It is actually interesting though that you mention that quote. If you look at the characters in this story the ones who have relatives in the mob are all ones that were born prior to the 1950s with the youngest being Sammy Bottino. You have to remember though this is something that he had absolutely no control over. In my interpretation Sammy is somewhat proud that Nicky chose to follow in his footsteps but had he been around he likely would have chosen another life for him. Nowadays a mobsters son is much more likely to be an AJ Soprano than a Nicky Bottino. I'm not really a fan of Rockstar's choice of making mobsters 20 years younger than they actually should be i.e. basing their version of Sammy Bottino on the much older Sammy Gravano or making people "senior" and "long time capos" when they're only in their early 30s. I suppose making the children just like their famous fathers is somewhat like my counter to this in a sense but it certainly wouldn't be my main motivation. What I mean is I don't just want to copy somebody's personality and make them twenty years younger in order to fit in with the timeframe of the stories.. I want to say okay this guy is like this other guy that you might have heard of but there's a good reason for it. I do envision all of there relatives (uncles, fathers, cousins etc.) being based on real life mobsters but I wanted to make any similarities they share be fleeting at best.

 

Spot on with regards to the Butchy favour man it is an obvious easter egg which refers to the mission Espresso-2-Go! from GTA III although it won't be nearly as hard (no time limits). And yes I'm definitely open to hearing more suggestions.


Money Over Bullshit
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#694

Posted 22 April 2016 - 04:43 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 3 weeks ago.

After a two month long hiatus I sat down today and started writing the final part of Chapter 18. It follows on directly from the previous installment. I'm not really sure when I'm going to finish it but here is a little snippet to tide you all over:

 

This part of the chapter opens up with Carlo standing in his underwear cleansing his wounds in the bathroom of his Richmond Island home. As he dries his face and examines himself in the mirror a loud knock will be heard on his front door. Carlo will stand frozen staring into the mirror in a momentary panic as the banging on his front door becomes louder and more repetitive. He will toss his bloody towel aside and descend the stairs into his hallway before opening his front door as two men on the other side look to be just about to call for a battering ram to break it in. He will instantly recognise the men as agents Russo and DeSoto of the FIB.

 

"Hey fellas.. nice jackets" he will say, making reference to their windbreakers with "FIB" emblazoned on the back.

 

Russo: "I hope we're not disturbing you"

 

His words will draw attention to Carlo's state of semi undress.

 

Carlo: "No actually I was just washing up.."

 

DeSoto: "We came by to see you the other day but apparently you weren't home. We were starting to get a little worried that you might have boarded a plane... or a helicopter and made your way out of the city"

 

Russo: "You look a little worse for wear.. are you sure everything's alright?"

 

Carlo: "Yeah I went out for a couple of drinks.. and got into a fight. You aint gonna jam me up for that are ya?"

 

DeSoto: "Not unless the other guy winded up dead.. besides it looks like you've suffered enough"

 

Russo: "We would like you to come into the city with us though.. we want to ask you a couple of questions"

 

Carlo: "And what if I say no?"

 

DeSoto will produce a pair of handcuffs from his pocket "Then you know the drill"

 

Carlo: "Hmm ok.. let me just put on some clothes. Unless you wanna be sat across the table from me with my junk hanging out"

 

DeSoto will look towards Russo for permission and Russo will nod

 

"Ok but I'm gonna be waiting around back to make sure you don't try anything stupid"

 

Carlo: "Ok but no peeking"

 

DeSoto will scoff at the suggestion

 

The scene will lapse and you will find yourself by Carlo's closet tasked with picking out something for him to wear. You will notice that the clothes that you were wearing in the previous segment will have been washed clean of any evidence so feel free to wear them if you feel like rubbing the agents noses in it.

 

Once you have picked out something suitable Carlo will join the agents outside his house and then walk complicitly with them towards a dark coloured Washington. The scene will once again fade to black and reopen a few seconds later with an exterior shot of a chopper landing on the roof of the FIB Headquarters in lower Algonquin before cutting to an interior shot of Carlo being lead into an interrogation room. (Continue reading here..)

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mk91552
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#695

Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:58 AM

I wish that Rockstar would take the time to have a look over all the concept ideas people have put out on the forums, including yours. The work you do is amazing. The way you have used the unseen characters of the game and made a story of each that are based off of actual real life characters. Harvey Noto being Joe Massino, Vincent Lupisella being Vincent Gigante, Jon Gravelli being Paul Castellano, Roy Zito being John Gotti, Sammy Bottino being Salvatore Gravano. I do want to know why Sammy Bottino and Roy Zito are rivals when in real life Salvatore Gravano and John Gotti were best friends until Gravano turned government witness. By the way, are you planning that Carlo eventually be caught up by the law with a RICO conviction or killed off.

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

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#696

Posted 05 July 2016 - 10:37 AM

I wish that Rockstar would take the time to have a look over all the concept ideas people have put out on the forums, including yours. The work you do is amazing. The way you have used the unseen characters of the game and made a story of each that are based off of actual real life characters. Harvey Noto being Joe Massino, Vincent Lupisella being Vincent Gigante, Jon Gravelli being Paul Castellano, Roy Zito being John Gotti, Sammy Bottino being Salvatore Gravano. I do want to know why Sammy Bottino and Roy Zito are rivals when in real life Salvatore Gravano and John Gotti were best friends until Gravano turned government witness. By the way, are you planning that Carlo eventually be caught up by the law with a RICO conviction or killed off.

First off thanks man I always appreciate feedback whether it be positive or not. I tried to focus more on unseen and original characters in order to give the story some uniqueness and originality and even though many characters draw inspiration from real life people I don't feel like any of them are a 1:1 copy as I tried to mix up a few different influences into every character and put my own unique spin on the backstories of real life mobsters so as the give a feeling of realism but not outright copy real life at the same time. I originally had no intention of basing Bottino off Sammy Gravano and I still don't think I have. This was a connection that Rockstar made themselves in GTA V. Its also a similar situation with Vincent Lupisella, Rockstar made him quite a blatant rip off of Vincent Gigante but threw in their own humorous twist on aspects of his personality just like I have tried to do here. As far as your last question goes, you'll just have to wait and see although I'm not sure when I'll actually get to finish this as I've been really busy with other stuff lately so I haven't had time to sit down and do any writing at all. Rest assured though I do know exactly how all of this is going to end and I hope to have it it all tied up.. soon. 


mk91552
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#697

Posted 22 July 2016 - 11:58 AM Edited by mk91552, 22 July 2016 - 11:59 AM.

I noticed there is a compilation between character traits and backstorys and aren't an exact copy of a singular real world person (most notably Jon Gravelli, who appears to be hash of Carlo Gambino and Paul Castellano): However, it is the amount of depth you go into, your understanding of the mob and your ability to be able to turn a few unmentioned names from the LCPD database into a fully detailed story that is, in my opinion, better than what Rockstar pulled off with GTA IV, Lost and Damned and Ballad of Gay Tony combined. Being a person that enjoys learning about the Italian American mafia, I have enjoyed this story, despite the fact that to some extent there is a falsehood in the time setting. By 2008 the mob in New York, and in most of the USA, had practically dried due to the fact of RICO, not just with and the heavy sentencing it brought but the "rats" it created-destroying the whole heirachy of organised crime (e.g. Joe Massino turning government informant in 2004 and Sammy Gravano in 1991). Though that is not a thing that I think affects the story in any such way; number one being that this is the time period that GTA IV took place in and the time you had to work with (so automatically it is Rockstars blindness to realism in the first place) and two your writing ability and incorporation of historical figures embodied in these fictional characters really does broaden the professionalism and understanding of real life criminal. As I asked in my previous statement about whether or not Carlo would be convicted/ arrested or murder, I personally would like to say I would love the ending to be somewhat like Mafia: City of Lost Heaven; with Carlo betraying Roy Zito, Giovanni Ancelotti and the rest of the Commission. The reasons I would like this ending is number one I recall in one part you said that Roy would most likely be imprisoned due to his lack in ability of being discreet and number two being that Giovanni is the main antagonist Carlo's main task would be to get himself as faraway from him as possible. You could say that it should end with a big gun battle but truthfully an ending like this would be best to emphasise the reality of organised crime and reflect the moral consequence of a life of crime; having a crime boss send every single goon he has to find and kill you, having another crime boss pretty much waving a banner saying "I'm a f***king mobster everyone, come catch me if you can" and the FBI continuously nipping you at your heals waiting for you to slip up. Secondly, a gun battle would be to improbable, A) the implications of a gun battle between two crime families being tightly surveyed by the FBI would cause the Gambetti Crime Family and all the other families to be under tighter surveillance and less operationing space. B) the Ancelotti Family have suffered a lot (even stated by Don Ancelotti himself); they have lost majority of their unions, rackets, turf and men and would not have the muscle to have a massive shootout. I hope these few points both help and guide you to a great and successful ending to an excellent story that if you ask me should become a book or better yet a video game.

Money Over Bullshit
  • Money Over Bullshit

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#698

Posted 26 July 2016 - 05:34 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 26 July 2016 - 05:38 PM.

Being a person that enjoys learning about the Italian American mafia, I have enjoyed this story, despite the fact that to some extent there is a falsehood in the time setting. By 2008 the mob in New York, and in most of the USA, had practically dried due to the fact of RICO, not just with and the heavy sentencing it brought but the "rats" it created-destroying the whole heirachy of organised crime (e.g. Joe Massino turning government informant in 2004 and Sammy Gravano in 1991). Though that is not a thing that I think affects the story in any such way; number one being that this is the time period that GTA IV took place in and the time you had to work with (so automatically it is Rockstars blindness to realism in the first place) and two your writing ability and incorporation of historical figures embodied in these fictional characters really does broaden the professionalism and understanding of real life criminal. As I asked in my previous statement about whether or not Carlo would be convicted/ arrested or murder, I personally would like to say I would love the ending to be somewhat like Mafia: City of Lost Heaven; with Carlo betraying Roy Zito, Giovanni Ancelotti and the rest of the Commission. The reasons I would like this ending is number one I recall in one part you said that Roy would most likely be imprisoned due to his lack in ability of being discreet and number two being that Giovanni is the main antagonist Carlo's main task would be to get himself as faraway from him as possible. You could say that it should end with a big gun battle but truthfully an ending like this would be best to emphasise the reality of organised crime and reflect the moral consequence of a life of crime; having a crime boss send every single goon he has to find and kill you, having another crime boss pretty much waving a banner saying "I'm a f***king mobster everyone, come catch me if you can" and the FBI continuously nipping you at your heals waiting for you to slip up. Secondly, a gun battle would be to improbable, A) the implications of a gun battle between two crime families being tightly surveyed by the FBI would cause the Gambetti Crime Family and all the other families to be under tighter surveillance and less operationing space. B) the Ancelotti Family have suffered a lot (even stated by Don Ancelotti himself); they have lost majority of their unions, rackets, turf and men and would not have the muscle to have a massive shootout. I hope these few points both help and guide you to a great and successful ending to an excellent story that if you ask me should become a book or better yet a video game.

Although what you're saying is partially true I wouldn't say that by 2008 the mob in New York was completely obsolete. The Feds were really starting to get one over on them though so their power was greatly reduced. I feel that this story is pretty true to that aside from a few missions which call back to schemes of yesteryear thrown in to keep the story fun and interesting. I've done some thorough research though and I can assure you that the story is about 80 or 90% accurate. In the mid - late '00s the mob was still very much involved in most of their traditional rackets with a few more modern schemes thrown in to substitute ones which had previously been busted by the cops. The Sopranos (which ended in 2007) is some pretty good evidence of that.

 

One of the reasons there were so many rats is that the various families became less selective about who they inducted so a lot of people got in who saw La Cosa Nostra less as a way of life and more as a way to make money so it became less about honor and loyalty and more about dollars and cents. For that reason I'd say it was less so the RICO statutes and more so the witness protection program that dealt a serious blow to the mob. RICO allowed for much harsher sentencing but the self preservation from these sentences afforded by WITSEC is what really got people talking. Carlo is a man who is really conflicted.. he was born and raised in the streets so loyalty is a big thing to him, however he's beginning to realise more and this blind loyalty isn't being reciprocated by his peers despite how much he's done for them up until now. This is someting I hope to bring to a head in the next part of the story and hopefully set up nicely for the final chapter. As far as the final chapter goes.. it will be a little bit far fetched although I think this is to be expected from a work of fiction such as this. In saying that though the reasoning behind what happens I think will be plausible enough so as not to seem absolutely ridiculous. Hopefully it will put to bed most of your concerns at the same time too. I just need a bit of time and motivation to finish it now :D


Money Over Bullshit
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#699

Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:22 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 05 August 2016 - 09:25 PM.

Be it procrastination about completing the final part of Chapter 18 or just genuine boredom (probably a mixture of both). I've made the proposed changes to the Chapter 4 opener to include William Hambrough who will appear later in a series of Special Favors missions (that will be retroactively added). For those who are interested you can look at it here - http://gtaforums.com...entry1060429674

 

I kind of rattled it off and I don't feel like I really got to show Hambrough's personality but I wanted to hold back a few things for the favors missions. Anyway, I hope you enjoy it none the less.

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Tyla
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#700

Posted 06 August 2016 - 05:54 AM

Good to see you writing again MOB, I see you haven't lost your touch for writing sleazy white-collar types.

 

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the special favors missions pan out.


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#701

Posted 06 August 2016 - 07:49 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 06 August 2016 - 07:55 PM.

Good to see you writing again MOB, I see you haven't lost your touch for writing sleazy white-collar types.
 
I'm really looking forward to seeing how the special favors missions pan out.

Thanks man. I probably could've written out all of Habrough favors yesterday had I had the time. For some reason I just got a little burst of creativity yesterday evening but I couldn't afford to stay up all night writing. My biggest problem is not really lacking ideas.. I have everything pretty much planned out it's just finding the times where I'm actually motivated to put them down in print and just jumping on it. This topic is becoming somewhat like a magnum opus at this stage but I just have so many other things going on and so many ideas floating around in my head that it's hard to stay focused on one particular thing. I'm actually beginning to realise how George R. R. Martin must feel  :lol:


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#702

Posted 06 August 2016 - 10:56 PM Edited by PhilosophicalZebra, 06 August 2016 - 10:56 PM.

I have to admit I've been a lazy ass in regards to reading through this concept, but I've finally caught up and I'm very impressed. Liberty City's mob scene was always pretty ripe for exploration, and the way you've managed to incorporate real life crime figures into the game in a believable way adds to the unique climate I get by reading it.

I'm anticipating your next few missions and I know blank page syndrome can be a pain in the ass. At least you've got it all planned out :)

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#703

Posted 08 August 2016 - 10:59 AM

How far do you think you are actually off completing this? I know there's a bit of a snippet above (which I really need to find time to read) but I'm wondering if 18 is going to be the final one?

 

I also noticed I snagged the 700th post the other day, what a milestone. Congrats! :cookie:


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#704

Posted 08 August 2016 - 11:59 AM

I have to admit I've been a lazy ass in regards to reading through this concept, but I've finally caught up and I'm very impressed. Liberty City's mob scene was always pretty ripe for exploration, and the way you've managed to incorporate real life crime figures into the game in a believable way adds to the unique climate I get by reading it.

I'm anticipating your next few missions and I know blank page syndrome can be a pain in the ass. At least you've got it all planned out :)

Thanks a lot for taking the time to get up to speed man I know it can be a bit of chore sometimes to sit down and read through somebody's work. Hopefully I've kept it interesting enough to soften the blow :) The general consensus seems to be that the mob has been dead in NYC since Gotti went down when in fact this isn't the case. Most people just don't really have the same interest in the Mob that they once did so they choose not to seek out the related information. Sure they've been overshadowed by the likes of the Cartel in recent times but they're still very much active and a simple google search of recent articles from the New York media will confirm this. Not only are they still active but they're actually evolving and working along side the newer players in the drug market etc. in order to continue generating income. That's the thing about the mafia, they're like the mythical Hydra.. cut off one head and another one grows in its place. Law Enforcement has definitely struck them a number of serious blows but their war against them is similar to their war on drugs, no matter how many convictions they get the battle is everlasting. As previously stated I've called upon a few older schemes and things in order to invoke a bit of nostalgia and not have you spending the story running a wire room or cloning people's credit cards but I think a lot of the main elements of the modern mafia are still there, so the fact that people think its believable is a great compliment and I thank you for it.

 

I've recently seen your name being thrown about in relation to your Bohemians & Blackjack topic and I will definitely check that out in detail. I've already had a glance over it and it's looking really good so far.

 

How far do you think you are actually off completing this? I know there's a bit of a snippet above (which I really need to find time to read) but I'm wondering if 18 is going to be the final one?

 

I also noticed I snagged the 700th post the other day, what a milestone. Congrats! :cookie:

That snippet comes from the final part of chapter 18 which story wise will be the penultimate piece, with the single parted chapter 19 being the finale. After that there will be an epilogue and I also hope to post fully fledged adaptions of those special favors missions that we spoke about too. 700 posts certainly is a big milestone and it makes me proud that I've managed to bring it this far.

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#705

Posted 3 weeks ago Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 2 weeks ago.

Chapter 18

 

Part 3 - "Take the Deal or Take the Sentence"

 

This part of the chapter opens up with Carlo standing in his underwear cleansing his wounds in the bathroom of his Richmond Island home. As he dries his face and examines himself in the mirror a loud knock will be heard on his front door. Carlo will stand frozen staring into the mirror in a momentary panic as the banging on his front door becomes louder and more repetitive. He will toss his bloody towel aside and descend the stairs into his hallway before opening his front door as two men on the other side look to be just about to call for a battering ram to break it in. He will instantly recognise the men as agents Russo and DeSoto of the FIB.
 
"Hey fellas.. nice jackets" he will say, making reference to their windbreakers with "FIB" emblazoned on the back.
 
Russo: "I hope we're not disturbing you"
 
His words will draw attention to Carlo's state of semi undress.
 
Carlo: "No actually I was just washing up.."
 
DeSoto: "We came by to see you the other day but apparently you weren't home. We were starting to get a little worried that you might have boarded a plane... or a helicopter and made your way out of the city"
 
Russo: "You look a little worse for wear.. are you sure everything's alright?"
 
Carlo: "Yeah I went out for a couple of drinks.. and got into a fight. You aint gonna jam me up for that are ya?"
 
DeSoto: "Not unless the other guy winded up dead.. besides it looks like you've suffered enough"
 
Russo: "We would like you to come into the city with us though.. we want to ask you a couple of questions"
 
Carlo: "And what if I say no?"
 
DeSoto will produce a pair of handcuffs from his pocket "Then you know the drill"
 
Carlo: "Hmm ok.. let me just put on some clothes. Unless you wanna be sat across the table from me with my junk hanging out"
 
DeSoto will look towards Russo for permission and Russo will nod
 
"Ok but I'm gonna be waiting around back to make sure you don't try anything stupid"
 
Carlo: "Ok but no peeking"
 
DeSoto will scoff at the suggestion
 
The scene will lapse and you will find yourself by Carlo's closet tasked with picking out something for him to wear. You will notice that the clothes that you were wearing in the previous segment will have been washed clean of any evidence so feel free to wear them if you feel like rubbing the agents noses in it.
 
Once you have picked out something suitable Carlo will join the agents outside his house and then walk complicitly with them towards a dark coloured Washington. The scene will once again fade to black and reopen a few seconds later with an exterior shot of a chopper landing on the roof of the FIB Headquarters in lower Algonquin before cutting to an interior shot of Carlo being lead into an interrogation room.
 
As Carlo moves towards the interrogation room with the two agents they will walk down a hallway passing by another room with an agent questioning a man with bandages on his face who judging by his clothes appears to be a member of some kind of biker gang. The agent will notice them and draw the blinds.
 
After a minute or so the men will turn left into another more cluttered but spacious office containing several desks, a few other agents and five large white boards scattered around the rooms depicting the apparent hierarchies of each of Liberty City's five families. On the Gambetti board pinned near the bottom will the picture of Carlo talking to Peter Gravelli that the agents showed him previously. The pictures of Jon Gravelli, Philly Narducci and Dino Zifferelli will all sit to the side with a large red X through them signifying that they are deceased. Roy Zito's picture will be pinned crookedly at the top with a crown and fairy wings and what appears to be a dildo stylised as a wand drawn on it crudely in black marker. There will also be a separate picture of Peter on the chart decorated similarly to look like a nave of hearts. They will pass by the board and enter the interrogation room. At this point Carlo's cellphone will begin to ring
 
Russo: "Do you eh need to get that?"
 
Carlo will take out his phone and switch it to silent without even checking who it is
 
"No.. whatever it is I'm sure it can wait"
 
Russo: "Ok then. Have a seat"
 
Carlo will sit down on the far side of a bench with the two agents seated opposite him
 
Russo: "Before we get started can I get you anything.. maybe a cup of coffee or cold glass of water"
 
He will point individually to a coffee pot on a table in the corner and a water dispenser on the other side of the room, which aside from the table and chairs in the middle will be the only other objects, giving the room a distinctly cold and clinical feel.
 
Carlo: "You know what I could really use is a nice cold beer"
 
DeSoto: "Dream on f*ckwad. You're not in one of your little social clubs now"
 
Carlo: "And here was me thinking this was the Majestic. Alright how about a sprunk then?"
 
DeSoto: "Ok.. Russo, get this man a soda"
 
Agent Russo will look at him side-eyed
 
"What? I got it the last time"
 
Russo: "You can have your soda but first we're gonna talk"
 
Carlo: "Ok then.. what do you wanna ask me?"
 
DeSoto: "You sure you don't wanna call an attorney?"
 
Carlo: "Nah.. lawyers are for the guilty. I'm completely innocent"
 
DeSoto: "Yeah and I'm Chloe Parker"
 
Carlo: "Nah man.. he's Cloe Parker.. you're more of a Anita Mendoza. You look like Cloe Parker's twat.. only not quite as pretty"
 
DeSoto will lunge across the table towards Carlo and retort
 
"We'll see who's a twat when your getting f*cked in the pen"
 
Russo: "He isn't going to no pen. He's going to co-operate. Isn't that right Carlo"
 
Carlo: "Co-operate with what? Whatever case you guys are building it sure as hell ain't got nothing to do with me"
 
DeSoto: "That's where you're wrong. We've interviewed numerous informants and your name keeps coming up time and time again. If we nail you for what they're alleging you aint seeing sunlight for a very long time"
 
Russo: "We've already got dozens of transcripts. All you've got to do is corroborate what they're saying and you won't have to spend so much as a day on the inside"
 
DeSoto will now produce a tape recorder and place it on the bench
 
Carlo: "You need me to corroborate because all of your so called informants are winding up dead"
 
DeSoto: "And how exactly would you know that?"
 
Carlo: "I read the f*cking papers like anyone else and right now the FIB are looking like a bunch of clowns.. all these guys getting whacked and no solid leads besides idle speculation"
 
Russo: "Then maybe you can help us with that"
 
Carlo: "The last time we spoke you had me pegged as a simple associate, now all of a sudden I'm some fountain of information.. well I aint no fountain and I'm no Jimmy Cast. So what makes you think I'd be any use.. even if what you're saying is true"
 
DeSoto: "Actually we have you down as a card carrying soldier in the Gambetti crime family whose had a working relationship with all of the big five Mafia Crime Families in Liberty City"
 
Russo: "Which means that what you know could be even more valuable than anyone else. Which as much as we hate to admit it makes you one of the best candidates for the witness protection program that anyone has ever seen. In saying that we'd much rather see you rot but mechanisms are in place and we need to adhere to them"
 
DeSoto: "Not to mention its by far the best option you've got. You're on board a sinking ship kid. While you were at Gravelli's funeral breaking his boy out of custody we were in your new boss's social club filling it full of more bugs than a Bohan bedsit. We're building a case against your family from the top down"
 
Carlo: "And you have absolutely no problem telling me that?"
 
DeSoto: "It's not like you're gonna run and tell Zito you heard it from the feds. He'd have you chopped up and tossed in the west river. I know you won't admit it but you know first hand what he did to the last person who talked. And now that he's officially the boss he's more unpredictable and paranoid than ever. I hear he makes all the new guys strip naked so he can check they're not wired although from what else I'm hearing that might just be for his personal pleasure"
 
Russo: "Anecdotal gossip aside. We're offering you a genuine chance of an out. A new life for you and your mother a chance to start a new life and a family somewhere nobody knows you and you're not constantly looking over your shoulder worrying if you're gonna be the next one to get whacked over some insignificant or imagined slight. Where the only men in suits that'll be knocking at your door will be Jehovah witness"
 
Carlo: "So what, I just tell you whatever information it is that you think that I know about these families and you just let me walk is that it?"
 
Russo: "Like I said it wouldn't be our idea of the best course of action but that's the way they want it upstairs"
 
Carlo: "What they want is to snare a few big fishies to justify your units existence. You can't be getting half as much funding since the recent terror outbreak so you want to secure a few convictions to keep Binco suits on your backs and Karin Dilletantes under your wifes asses"
 
DeSoto: "Damn this guy's good"
 
Russo: "Ok you got us. It's just like you said.. we don't get a few high profile collars that stick it might mean that me and my partner here are out of a Job"
 
DeSoto: "Or at the very least we'll be spending our days as a couple of desk jockeys, compiling statistics about what Abdul the halal butcher from Broker had for his lunch"
 
Russo: "Now that we've been honest with you its time for you to be honest with us"
 
DeSoto: "Yeah spill it you scumbag tell us what you know"
 
Carlo: "f*ck you. You aint breaking me that easy. What'd you think, you boys would just play it nice with me and I'd give you a recorded confession?"
 
(pushes the recorder away)
 
"Why don't you boys take that thing and play a game with it to see who can fit it in the other ones ass"
 
"Haha nice.. with the game.. and the asses" DeSoto will say before pushing the recorder back in Carlo's direction
 
"But it aint for recording.. we want you to hear something"
 
Agent Russo will lean over and press play on the device
 
"Turns out some of those you're protecting aren't so eager to protect you in return"
 
After a few seconds of static a recording will play of various pieces of dialogue between two men (Phil Bell and Paulie Gianco). And as it turns out they've been in cahoots the whole time. Something that will be revealed in the various exchanges which will play out as follows:
 
Paulie: "Hey buddy I have news"
Phil: "Uh huh"
Paulie: "About that thing"
Phil: "That thing?"
Paulie: "Our friend made us an offer and it's good"
Phil: "Our friend did what?"
Paulie: "..Thirty seven pieces at eight thousand each"
Phil: "Thirty seven at eight!? Nah"
 
Phil laughs nervously knowing they've probably said too much
 
"What about them swingers?"
 
Paulie: "It's been a great season.. hopefully the best is yet to come"
Phil: "How's Marlene?"
Paulie: "c*nty as ever. You'd know better than anybody.. how are the kids?"
Phil: "The kids? Beautiful"
Paulie: "Tell 'em I was asking for 'em"
Phil: "Okay. Yeah, I gotta go"
Paulie: "Slainte my friend"
Phil: "..eh ciao"
 
Russo will stop and then forward the tape and you will hear a sped up version of the remaining cutscene from the mission Truck Hustle from GTA IV.
 
DeSoto: "The rest is non pertinent"
 
Russo: "To this case anyway"
 
After a few seconds he will stop on another recording
 
Paulie: "That thing we talked about the other day.. it's happening monday"
Phil: "Jeez, that was fast"
Paulie: "Yeah. Anyway I want you to be there to take your share. Our friend from Broker's taking ten percent from the sale the rest we'll split evenly"
Phil: "Yeah, no problem. Before you said the deal was for forty.. now its thirty seven, where's the other three?"
Paulie: "We're getting a good deal so the Russian's keeping a few pieces for himself. Are you cool with that?"
Phil: "Sure thing pal. Just give me a time and I'll be there"
Paulie: "I'm not too sure.. I'll be in touch when it gets here. Wait by the phone"
Phil: "We can't meet in person?"
Paulie: "Not now it's too risky. Interesting times here remember"
Phil: "Sure I remember. I'll wait for the call then and speak to you soon"
 
(cut)

 
House music can be heard in the background.. almost drowning out the conversation
 
Paulie: "I need to speak to Phil. Is he there?"
Honkers Barkeep: "Hey Paulie, no you just missed him. He went out for some air with some Serbian dude"
 
"Jesus Christ.."
 
Paulie will groan at the bartender's loose lips
 
"If you see him tell him to get down the docks as quick as he can.. tell him its an emergency.. he'll understand"
 
Russo will pause the tape
 
"Shortly after that there was some kind of shootout on Charge Island"
 
Carlo: "Sure.. I read about that"
 
"According to an informant's testimony The Pegorino Family out in Alderney were working with a member of Liberty's Ancelotti family. The guys you heard on those tapes as you know were Phil Bell, a Pegorino associate and Ancelotti capo Paulie Gianco. From what we hear Gianco secured his position by setting up a scheme to import 40 kilos of uncut cocaine into the city with the help of some Russian gangsters. The plan between the two was to rip off Gianco's higher ups and keep the drugs for themselves. But somehow sh*t got complicated at the docks and somebody crashed the welcome party. We believe the Pegorinos secured the drugs and the Ancelottis made off with half of the cash. Of course none of this is news to you. What we don't understand though is what exactly happened and how or why you were involved"
 
DeSoto: "Yeah.. why was somebody working for the Gambettis involved in a deal with the Ancelottis and those Alderney goombahs? Last we heard they weren't exactly friends"
 
Russo: "We were hoping you might enlighten us.. if we're going to tag them with a conspiracy charge as part of their RICOs we need to find out what happened"
 
Carlo: "How the hell would I know"
 
Russo: "We thought you might say that... keep listening"
 
DeSoto: "This one's my favourite"
 
Russo will play one final part of the tape
 
Paulie: "Hey can we talk."
Phil: "Sure Paulie what's up?"
Paulie: "Is this line secure?"
Phil: "Yeah its a new burner I just bought it the other day"
Paulie: "Okay. Our friend Charlie's meeting with the Russians as we speak. I left him to it and slipped out. Told him I was going to get a pack of cigarettes"
Phil: "I thought your bag was cigars"
Paulie: "Charlie's a dumbf*ck.. he didn't even question it. Anyway that's not the issue here. We've got a f*ckin problem.. Charlie knows it was you who stole the shipment.. which means we've got a leak. Who was that you took along on the job?"
Phil: "That was my boy Nicky, who Ray introduced me to.. it couldn't be him though. He's 100% kosher.. its got to be somebody on your end.. either that or it was the f*ckin Russians.. it's got to be them"
Paulie: "Maybe. Anyway it don't matter. Charlie's planning to take a chopper into the city and expose the whole f*ckin thing. He makes it there and that's bad news for both of us"
Phil: "sh*t. Say no more.. I'll have my buddy Nicky take care of it"
Paulie: "This guy, he's reliable?"
Phil: "He's like a golden retriever.. loyal to the bone"
Paulie: "I know what you mean. I've found myself a little doggy too"
Phil: "Is he as good as Tony?"
Paulie: "He's better. He's just as f*cking dumb though.. I've got him eating right out of the palm of my hand. Poor bastard came from nothing.. he'd do anything for cash"
 
DeSoto will start to rub his hands and laugh
 
"He's talking about you there buddy"
 
Phil: "You know what I say pal. Surround yourself with mooks.. that way you don't feel bad if you have to whack every one of them"
Paulie: "That's good advice Phil I'll have to remember that"
Phil: "You're welcome. Anyway I see Nicky comin' I'll talk to you later"
 
(end)
 
Carlo: "Nice try fellas but I won't be manipulated"
 
Somewhat realising the irony of his words he will attempt to change the subject
 
"That leak they mentioned.. it was you?"
 
DeSoto will nod and smile and Russo will elbow him for revealing too much
 
"Come on.. it's not like it's a secret that he was cooperating. Racketeering convictions just don't disappear. Unless you talk. Why don't you follow in his footsteps.. before you follow in his footsteps and wind up dead"
 
Russo: "That's right, Bell did what he said.. Charlie wound up dead.. which is kind of bad for us. But it wasn't all happy families between the Pegorinos and the Ancelottis neither. Paulie and Phil had some kind of falling out and Paulie took his advice regarding these so called "mooks", which is why he sent you to take care of him. We've got that on tape but honestly its a bit muffled so we didn't include it.. anyway you know what you done as much as we do"
 
DeSoto: "And that's just the start. We've already started compiling the tapes from the club. Lets just say your boss isn't as much of a friend as he makes himself out to be neither. Don't worry though you'll hear it at trial. What side of the courtroom you're standing on though.. that's up to you"
 
Carlo: "I'll look forward to hearing it on TV"
 
"Haha yeah. You should hear what we picked up from the body mic.. your voice is very clear on that one.. it actually sounds kind of beautiful. It sounds like victory"
 
Carlo: "There's no way you could've got me on tape"
 
DeSoto: "Oh yeah?"
 
Carlo: "Yeah. Cause whatever you've got on there aint got nothing to do with me"
 
Russo: "As we say the audio's a little muffled but it's definitely your voice on there. 'Paulie Gianco sends his regards' we can clean it up for the jury but if you want to deal well then there's no need"
 
At this point a smug grin will spread across Carlo's face
 
"It might be worth me taking the fall for it though. Make up a few stories and retire to the country. Say I did tell you some things... what are you offering?"
 
Russo: "Full immunity and relocation.. we'll even let you keep some of your ill gotten gains. But we need you to give up everybody.. and we mean everybody"
 
Carlo: "Everybody huh?"
 
DeSoto: "So does that mean you're gonna talk?"
 
Carlo: "Like I said.. I don't know sh*t. I just wanted to see what you guys was offering"
 
Russo: "What we're offering you is a way out.. and we'd strongly suggest that you take it"
 
DeSoto: "We shouldn't even offer you the f*cking courtesy. Talk to us or die in jail.. either way we win"
 
Carlo: "Well you see I would but.."
 
DeSoto: "You don't know sh*t. Ok we got that. But what you don't realise is that your blind loyalty will f*ck you up in the end. You're risking your life to protect those who've been playing you all along when we're giving you a chance to play them back"
 
DeSoto will grab Carlo by his collar and begin to yell
 
"We've got you bang to rights and you're too f*cking stupid to even realise it"
 
Carlo: "Hey Russo.. reign in your boy"
 
Russo: "No Carlo he's right. Take the deal or take the sentence. You've really got no other options"
 
DeSoto will now release him
 
"The sh*t is gonna hit the fan real soon pal. You can either hang around and get sprayed with fecal matter or you can can get the hell out"
 
Carlo will push his chair out from the table and begin to stand up
 
"I think I want to get out. I am free to go right? Or am I under arrest?"
 
DeSoto: "No you can go.. we know you'll be back"
 
Carlo will now begin to leave
 
"Yeah.. maybe I'll be in touch"
 
DeSoto: "Alright well you better be in touch soon or else we're coming for you. And this time we'll be at your door with a battering and an arrest warrant. There aint gonna be no going quietly neither.. we're dragging you to the lockup by your pretty hair"
 
Carlo: "Like I said.. maybe I'll be be in touch"
 
Carlo will leave the office looking troubled and after a brief a cut will emerge on the sidewalk outside the Federal Building in Algonquin. He will reach into his pocket and pull out his phone as a call buzzes through.
 
"Yeah hello.. Mr. Devino, it's Mickey from the bar in Hove"
 
"Hi Mickey.. is there a problem? what can I do?"
 
"f*ckin right there's a problem"
 
"There's a bunch of guys here smashing the place up. They say they're gonna kill me and torch the place if I don't tell them where you are but I told them I don't know.. I've been trying to call you. I'm just trying to earn a crust mister.. whatever you're into I don't care but I don't need this sh*t in my bar"
 
"These guys.. any idea who they are"
 
"No idea but they aint from around here that's for sure. They've got foreign accents and their english aint so good"
 
"Russians?"
 
"No.. I've dealt with the ruskies for years and these aint them."
 
At this point Carlo will overhear them speaking what he recognises to be Italian
 
"That sounds like Italian.. my mother tried to teach it to me when I was a kid. I don't know who these guys are but I need you to do me a favour and try to keep them there. I'll be right over"
 
"Ok but you better be fast.. it looks like they're giving up. Matter of fact I think they're leaving.. thank god"
 
"Just try to keep them there please"
 
"Ok I'll try"
 
You will make it to Comrades bar just in time to see the attackers pulling away in a car. You will be instructed to follow them as they take a frantic detour towards The Perestroika club. As soon as they get out you can pull up and execute them but you will soon find out that there is more inside. Some will hear the shots and begin to pour out but others will hide throughout the interior forcing you to go inside. By now it should be clear that they're going after all of your businesses. If you followed the story and only took over the four fronts in the previous chapter then you will only have two more places to go The Peep Hole and The Gulag Garden, however if you chose to expand your enterprises further after being made then you will need to swing by all of your fronts in order to prevent them from being completely destroyed. Once you have killed all of the attackers you will receive a curious phonecall from a doctor at the Bohan Medical Centre.
 
"Is this Mr. Devino?"
 
Carlo: "Yeah who's asking?"
 
"I'm calling from the Bohan Medical Centre in Northern Gardens. It's about your mother.. there's no easy way to say this but there was a fire at her apartment.. she's in critical condition"
 
Carlo will remain silent
 
Doctor: "She's currently unresponsive but you're welcome to come by and see her if you'd like"
 
Carlo: "Wait a minute.. my mother's in a coma and clinging on to life and you brought her to the Bohan Medical Centre? She's not some f*cking OD-ing junkie.. I'd like her moved to a proper hospital right away"
 
Doctor: "It was the closest hospital to her home sir.. it was either here or North Holland but I can assure you either one is up to providing her with an adequate level of care. Not to mention moving her now could be very risky"
 
Carlo: "An adequate level of care? Alright listen to me Doc.. I want you to move her to LCU right away. I've got the money.. I'll pay"
 
Doctor: "LCU Medical Centre in Lancet.. that's the most expensive hospital in the city sir"
 
Carlo: "Didn't you hear me? I said I'll pay. I want no expense spared. I'm not having my mother die in some hovel in Bohan.. no offence"
 
Doctor: "None taken sir.. I'll see to it personally that she's transferred right away"
 
Carlo: "Thanks Doc"
 
This chapter will now be complete.

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Claude4Catalina
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#706

Posted 3 weeks ago

You're a damn tease pal, I drop by to see if anything new has been posted and wham I see you've updated this!  Love how Carlo interacts with the FIB Agents, I get a feeling there wouldn't be the same rapport if the agents were Irish, or just straight up Libbo's with chips on their shoulders.  The kind of screw you attitude Carlo takes to the feds goes well with his jokes, then straight on to his serious attitude when it comes to concern for his mother.  The slippery backstabbing with Paulie is a real eye-opening, and I liked how you tied in dialogue from GTA IV cutscenes.  Really works well at giving a different insight into Phil Bell, I can't help but think he did have a soft spot for Niko, but in the back of his mind knew he may have to sell him down the river to save his own skin, just like Paulie is doing to Carlo.


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#707

Posted 3 weeks ago

You're a damn tease pal, I drop by to see if anything new has been posted and wham I see you've updated this!  Love how Carlo interacts with the FIB Agents, I get a feeling there wouldn't be the same rapport if the agents were Irish, or just straight up Libbo's with chips on their shoulders.  The kind of screw you attitude Carlo takes to the feds goes well with his jokes, then straight on to his serious attitude when it comes to concern for his mother.  The slippery backstabbing with Paulie is a real eye-opening, and I liked how you tied in dialogue from GTA IV cutscenes.  Really works well at giving a different insight into Phil Bell, I can't help but think he did have a soft spot for Niko, but in the back of his mind knew he may have to sell him down the river to save his own skin, just like Paulie is doing to Carlo.

Thanks for the feedback man. There's no doubt that there's a mutual hatred between the agents and Carlo. Russo hates him not only because he's a criminal but because he gives hard working Italians a bad name and the latin DeSoto just bloody hates him period. I really couldn't have Bell's only appearance be his demise either. Some might think he and Paulie's scheme is a little bit convoluted but the whole thing with Chubby Charlie and the coke I feel was a bit sloppy in GTA IV. As was the Jim Fitzgerald thing.. which I also referenced, although that one may be a bit tinfoil hat-ey :)


Claude4Catalina
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#708

Posted 3 weeks ago

A bit of Scorsese-level convulsion is good! Watch The Departed for the first time and you're still there an hour later trying to add up how it happened the way it did; thats something I'm working with on my Carcer gig.  There's times where we don't know whats happening, and its not gonna be explained directly, using the Homicide mantra of "everybody lies".  For instance I've the Pegorino's as quite a force to be reckoned with in 1988, they're not quite up there with the Five Families and don't have a seat on the Commission, but they're represented, which is about as good as they can hope for given they're a bit better than Busch League rejects where the Commission is concerned.  So Jimmy P filling Niko up with all this "I wanna do what father couldn't" is him trying to live up unrealistic he's set himself, considering later in 1988 the Pegorino's lose their representation.  They were always at a disadvantage due to them being from Alderney, but until the late eighties they held their own.  So if you ever feel like you're distorting your own story, I would worry too much; from Phil's end why would Niko know, and from Paulie's end, why would Carlo know?  Fact is they're still just a gunman in the eyes of those above them.

 

Where's the Jim Fitzgerald reference?!  No bother actually, I'm gonna use my rare half-day off work to find it!

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Money Over Bullshit
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#709

Posted 3 weeks ago

A bit of Scorsese-level convulsion is good! Watch The Departed for the first time and you're still there an hour later trying to add up how it happened the way it did; thats something I'm working with on my Carcer gig.  There's times where we don't know whats happening, and its not gonna be explained directly, using the Homicide mantra of "everybody lies".  For instance I've the Pegorino's as quite a force to be reckoned with in 1988, they're not quite up there with the Five Families and don't have a seat on the Commission, but they're represented, which is about as good as they can hope for given they're a bit better than Busch League rejects where the Commission is concerned.  So Jimmy P filling Niko up with all this "I wanna do what father couldn't" is him trying to live up unrealistic he's set himself, considering later in 1988 the Pegorino's lose their representation.  They were always at a disadvantage due to them being from Alderney, but until the late eighties they held their own.  So if you ever feel like you're distorting your own story, I would worry too much; from Phil's end why would Niko know, and from Paulie's end, why would Carlo know?  Fact is they're still just a gunman in the eyes of those above them.
 
Where's the Jim Fitzgerald reference?!  No bother actually, I'm gonna use my rare half-day off work to find it!

It's as Carlo is walking down the hallway in the FIB office. I had actually considered including a reference to Troy the Hercules door man and Steve Haines actually being the same person rather than simply being voiced by the same actor but I thought this would be a bridge too far in terms of conspiracy theories.

I really like the idea of The Pegorinos being semi important in the 80s and then losing their seat on the Commission due to whatever action they take in your story. Their history is very ambiguous so there is plenty of scope for you to dream up whatever back story you want for them and then set it in place.

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#710

Posted 2 weeks ago

It's taken me ages to read this, but I'm definitely not over-exaggerating when I say I think this one of the best, if not the best chapter you've written. It feels as though all the major plot points are being bought to a close and the fact you've obviously planned everything out makes it all the more enjoyable to read. The dialogue in particular was on another level and I don't think I've ever cheered Carlo on as much, although you make it painfully clear what kind of predicament he is in.

 

One question lingering on my mind has to do with Phil Bell and Paulie Gianco. It's obvious the two are in league with each other and had been for a long time. I'm wondering how this fits in with the Pegorinos going after the Ancelotti's so hard throughout GTAIV? Is this something Ray Boccino was doing to chip away at the Ancelottis power by himself, or is Phil a little more independent from the Pegorinos than I first thought?

 

Great stuff. I'm already aching for the next installment just so I can find out who's going after Carlo's businesses.


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#711

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 2 weeks ago.

It's taken me ages to read this, but I'm definitely not over-exaggerating when I say I think this one of the best, if not the best chapter you've written. It feels as though all the major plot points are being bought to a close and the fact you've obviously planned everything out makes it all the more enjoyable to read. The dialogue in particular was on another level and I don't think I've ever cheered Carlo on as much, although you make it painfully clear what kind of predicament he is in.

 

One question lingering on my mind has to do with Phil Bell and Paulie Gianco. It's obvious the two are in league with each other and had been for a long time. I'm wondering how this fits in with the Pegorinos going after the Ancelotti's so hard throughout GTAIV? Is this something Ray Boccino was doing to chip away at the Ancelottis power by himself, or is Phil a little more independent from the Pegorinos than I first thought?

 

Great stuff. I'm already aching for the next installment just so I can find out who's going after Carlo's businesses.

Thank you for the feedback as always man.. you're one of the few people that actually replies in this topic these days. With Phil its not so much about being independant from the Pegorinos since screwing the Ancelottis over is all part of the common goal. Paulie on the other hand is purely only in it for his own benefit. He sees the Ancelottis somewhat as a sinking ship and any opportunity he can take to salvage an extra bit of income he's willing to take it. In order to get the full picture though you need to look at his backstory and that of those around him. Despite his age he was actually only made into the Ancelotti family in the early 90s and has no real loyalty to anything but making cash.  He grew up the nephew of a Messina Family soldier and later became the protege of one of its Capos. Finding himself back in Liberty City with a lucrative Vice City based cocaine connection he became a hot prospect in the Mafia world. The Messinas never made him and at that time they would've still been in the bad books following all of the infighting in the 60s and 70s. The Gambettis wouldn't touch him and the Lupisella and Pavano Families would've kept him low rung for many more years until he proved to them his worth. He eventually saw an opportunity and stepped up for the Ancelottis, earning him his much coveted button and them a big slice of the drug market, which saw him bring in enough money for them to get one promotion after another. He's essentially just your average yes man and a shameless people pleaser. His outlook is to keep everyone sweet and take them for whatever they're worth. I know a few people like this and they always seem to get ahead. As the old saying goes.. you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs ;)


mk91552
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#712

Posted 2 weeks ago

I like the connection between the telephone calls that we got to hear during the start of Phil Bell's missions in GTA IV, it was really nostalgic. However, I don't feel it fits the theme you had for this mission. The Agents DeSoto and Russo are attempting to persuade Carlo to give up information about his mob associates by getting him to listen to wire tapped phone calls, but the phone calls you have used to persuade Carlo are not strong in suggesting that his life is in danger and his close associates are plotting to kill him. What I mean in that I think that in order to strengthen this aspect you need to change the conversations between Phil and Paulie to give that idea that Paulie is leaning towards having him whacked. By the way with what you said in response to Tyla's question is slightly incorrect. I believe your thoughts on Paulie's motives for being in cahoots with Paulie (mainly because you created this character but also because you have backed up your reasons with examples) but with Phil I believe his motives are different. He isn't a made member of the Pegorino Crime Family so that makes him have no solid basis of loyalty to that family. This means his own personal gain overrides what is good for the family. So I think, and this only my personal opinion, that during the whole narrative during GTA IV Phil was only thinking of himself and he really didn't care about how the family would suffer if he did that deal with Paulie.

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#713

Posted 2 weeks ago

I like the connection between the telephone calls that we got to hear during the start of Phil Bell's missions in GTA IV, it was really nostalgic. However, I don't feel it fits the theme you had for this mission. The Agents DeSoto and Russo are attempting to persuade Carlo to give up information about his mob associates by getting him to listen to wire tapped phone calls, but the phone calls you have used to persuade Carlo are not strong in suggesting that his life is in danger and his close associates are plotting to kill him. What I mean in that I think that in order to strengthen this aspect you need to change the conversations between Phil and Paulie to give that idea that Paulie is leaning towards having him whacked. By the way with what you said in response to Tyla's question is slightly incorrect. I believe your thoughts on Paulie's motives for being in cahoots with Paulie (mainly because you created this character but also because you have backed up your reasons with examples) but with Phil I believe his motives are different. He isn't a made member of the Pegorino Crime Family so that makes him have no solid basis of loyalty to that family. This means his own personal gain overrides what is good for the family. So I think, and this only my personal opinion, that during the whole narrative during GTA IV Phil was only thinking of himself and he really didn't care about how the family would suffer if he did that deal with Paulie.

In GTA IV I got the impression that Phil was really loyal to Jimmy Pegorino.. a lot more than Ray who actually only was in it for himself. Paulie and Ray are actually kind of similar in that regard. If Phil were Italian there is no doubt he would likely be Jimmy Peg's number 2 (or at least very high in the organisation). It's open to interpretation though I suppose.

 

I get what you're saying about the phonecalls but the idea wasn't actually to convey that Carlo's life is in danger. He knows that the life he leads could probably get him killed at some point and he doesn't really care. His biggest fear is going to prison and having to live without the status and material gains that he's worked so hard for. The whole idea for the tape was to reinforce the fact that the loyalty he shows others is completely one sided. There is somewhat of duality to Carlo though in that he simply follows the cash. He would've probably accepted being made into any one of the five families had they offered him the opportunity. He and Paulie definitely have their differences but they're really not all that different in that regard. Whether they actually realise it or not though is up for debate.


EM_JAY_86
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#714

Posted A week ago Edited by EM_JAY_86, A week ago.

Good to see u coming close to finishing the final chapter MOB, been tryna catch up and give feedback but been distracted everytime i get on here lately. Just got the chance to re-read 'Guilty by association' and liked it alot. Great mixture of engaging narrative and fast paced action. Really good scene setting with the feds scoping out the funeral on a dreary depressing day, and Zito's mention of powerful old friends not attending gives a good indication of a once powerful crime family facing an inevitable decline in the age of modern surveillance. I particularly enjoyed the in car dialogue on the drive through South Broker, and how Gravelli's back story mirrors Paul Castellano's. Rockstar strayed pretty far from reality with their version of the New York mob. While Gravelli was a great character and represented the old school mobster very well, his being boss going back to the 70s means that a usurper of Gotti's ilk maybe never existed in the Gambetti family(or was at least content with Gravelli's leadership), and one of New York's mobs most infamous regimes never existed in Liberty City. Same with Vincent Lupisella holding power since back in the day. I suppose we can assume the commision case never existed or didn't succeed in Liberty and the likes of the Amuso/Casso regime was never at the helm (although i like to imagine that Vinny Lup sent Honoroto's crew out on an inter family purge some time in the 80s!). Peter's dialogue and exposure of some of the late boss's less than admirable characteristics helps to bridge some gaps and you've given a richer background to an already great gta character. I can easily imagine Gravelli akin to Castellano with business savvy and the progressive attidute to deal with polititians and the CIA, while being street smart enough to keep the blue collar crews on side.

Quick question. Did R* name him Gravelli because he's gravely ill? Don't know if it's been pointed out before.

I liked Gravelli Jnr's appearance and the mission objective alike. Another bit of lovely dialogue was Zito's comment about skinny Jnr "gained some weight" after slipping him a pistol, haha smart writing mate, give me a good laugh. Also looking forward to see where u go with Bottino being back on the scene. As for the action it was perfect, a good old run and gun with the feds to start off, followed by escaping an all out assault by sea. The option to drive or shoot gives you more room to craft the mission to your liking and adds replay value. A diverse array of heavy weapons to use, mission exclusive enemy choppers, going to plan B to catch Jnr's ticket to freedom, all adds to the intensity of a great action packed experience, and pretty much everything that a late stage gta mission should be all about!

The phone call with Dani at the end was a great touch. You did a great job of addressing the impact that organized crime can have on somebody living on the very periphery of it. A young girl with a decent heart realising that 'the life' that she now questions with disgust is the same that's always supported her own, and after she condemns Carlo and says he's the same as the rest, i imagine the first thought in Carlo's head, "sh*t she's right!". While i don't know the whole background on their relationship this was still very poignant, and if i remember correctly and Dino was the guy u had a choice to kill earlier, then it adds a whole new layer depending on the player's choice.

Great writing and great work as usual MOB. I'll try my best to catch up in the next few days and give more feedback. Keep up the good work!

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#715

Posted 5 days ago

Good to see u coming close to finishing the final chapter MOB, been tryna catch up and give feedback but been distracted everytime i get on here lately. Just got the chance to re-read 'Guilty by association' and liked it alot. Great mixture of engaging narrative and fast paced action. Really good scene setting with the feds scoping out the funeral on a dreary depressing day, and Zito's mention of powerful old friends not attending gives a good indication of a once powerful crime family facing an inevitable decline in the age of modern surveillance. I particularly enjoyed the in car dialogue on the drive through South Broker, and how Gravelli's back story mirrors Paul Castellano's. Rockstar strayed pretty far from reality with their version of the New York mob. While Gravelli was a great character and represented the old school mobster very well, his being boss going back to the 70s means that a usurper of Gotti's ilk maybe never existed in the Gambetti family(or was at least content with Gravelli's leadership), and one of New York's mobs most infamous regimes never existed in Liberty City. Same with Vincent Lupisella holding power since back in the day. I suppose we can assume the commision case never existed or didn't succeed in Liberty and the likes of the Amuso/Casso regime was never at the helm (although i like to imagine that Vinny Lup sent Honoroto's crew out on an inter family purge some time in the 80s!). Peter's dialogue and exposure of some of the late boss's less than admirable characteristics helps to bridge some gaps and you've given a richer background to an already great gta character. I can easily imagine Gravelli akin to Castellano with business savvy and the progressive attidute to deal with polititians and the CIA, while being street smart enough to keep the blue collar crews on side.

Quick question. Did R* name him Gravelli because he's gravely ill? Don't know if it's been pointed out before.

I liked Gravelli Jnr's appearance and the mission objective alike. Another bit of lovely dialogue was Zito's comment about skinny Jnr "gained some weight" after slipping him a pistol, haha smart writing mate, give me a good laugh. Also looking forward to see where u go with Bottino being back on the scene. As for the action it was perfect, a good old run and gun with the feds to start off, followed by escaping an all out assault by sea. The option to drive or shoot gives you more room to craft the mission to your liking and adds replay value. A diverse array of heavy weapons to use, mission exclusive enemy choppers, going to plan B to catch Jnr's ticket to freedom, all adds to the intensity of a great action packed experience, and pretty much everything that a late stage gta mission should be all about!

The phone call with Dani at the end was a great touch. You did a great job of addressing the impact that organized crime can have on somebody living on the very periphery of it. A young girl with a decent heart realising that 'the life' that she now questions with disgust is the same that's always supported her own, and after she condemns Carlo and says he's the same as the rest, i imagine the first thought in Carlo's head, "sh*t she's right!". While i don't know the whole background on their relationship this was still very poignant, and if i remember correctly and Dino was the guy u had a choice to kill earlier, then it adds a whole new layer depending on the player's choice.

Great writing and great work as usual MOB. I'll try my best to catch up in the next few days and give more feedback. Keep up the good work!

Welcome back man and thank you for taking the time to catch up. I like to think of Gravelli as a bit more of a modernist than his predecessor Sonny Cangelosi and based on Castellano only through a few eccentricities such as the affair with the younger maid. He seems to be a tough old bastard and I can totally see him as having that characteristic fire in his belly that Gotti had in his day. A mix of Gambino's mild public manner and cunning mixed with Gotti's temper and street smarts in private like you said. We can kind of see hints of this in his dialogue with Niko especially when he calmly explains his history with the Ancelottis. He tries to make out that he's a very peaceful man but is compelled to clarify that he could've killed Giovanni's uncle if he wanted to. He also has no qualms about openly asking Niko to to murder people which was something that Gotti was known for. When Mr. Paper tell him he wants the Korean clipped he doesn't ask any questions it's just kind of like "you want it, it's done" - this is very similar to Gotti who would often take the word of his Capos and authorise hits without investigating their allegations against the target.

 

It seems to be the GTA style to have people go against the odds and get away with their crimes so I would say there could've been a Commission trial that everyone beat thanks to the infamous incompetence of the GTA cops. Like you I have my own fairly solid ideas in relation to the Lupisellas and the other crime families and I hope to bring them to light in the future. In terms of the name Gravelli I'm not really sure.. I'm thinking that family name Gambetti came from an amalgamation of Gambino and Gotti with the resulting Gambotti being slightly changed to Gambetti in order to draw a similarity to Gambit meaning a calculated and advantageous action. The other names are a bit ambiguous Messina is taken from a region in Sicily and Ancelotti I think was inspired by Italian footballer/manager Carlo Ancelotti. A lot of surnames in the GTA database are those of real world sport stars and the amount of them makes me think it's more than a coincidence especially given that some of them are highly unusual.

 

I've already addressed the Bottino thing. Way back I wanted to have a civil war between him and Roy Zito but GTA V tells us that he's been on the run since 2007 and remained as such until 2011 so it wouldn't feel right if he had any more than a fleeting appearance here. You're definitely right about Carlo.. he's definitely beginning to realise that Dani is right about his lifestyle and in the following chapters others also bring this to the forefront in pretty obvious terms. He is somewhat aware of his situation but he's too blinded by the glamour and mythos of the whole thing to actually think about it seriously at first. Hopefully as you read further into the story you'll enjoy it even more and I look forward to seeing your feedback.. especially if it's that in depth :)


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#716

Posted A day ago

Thank you for the feedback as always man.. you're one of the few people that actually replies in this topic these days. With Phil its not so much about being independant from the Pegorinos since screwing the Ancelottis over is all part of the common goal. Paulie on the other hand is purely only in it for his own benefit. He sees the Ancelottis somewhat as a sinking ship and any opportunity he can take to salvage an extra bit of income he's willing to take it. In order to get the full picture though you need to look at his backstory and that of those around him. Despite his age he was actually only made into the Ancelotti family in the early 90s and has no real loyalty to anything but making cash.  He grew up the nephew of a Messina Family soldier and later became the protege of one of its Capos. Finding himself back in Liberty City with a lucrative Vice City based cocaine connection he became a hot prospect in the Mafia world. The Messinas never made him and at that time they would've still been in the bad books following all of the infighting in the 60s and 70s. The Gambettis wouldn't touch him and the Lupisella and Pavano Families would've kept him low rung for many more years until he proved to them his worth. He eventually saw an opportunity and stepped up for the Ancelottis, earning him his much coveted button and them a big slice of the drug market, which saw him bring in enough money for them to get one promotion after another. He's essentially just your average yes man and a shameless people pleaser. His outlook is to keep everyone sweet and take them for whatever they're worth. I know a few people like this and they always seem to get ahead. As the old saying goes.. you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs ;)

I'm feeling a few parallels between Paulie and Carlo here. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but the way you describe Paulie as being a hot prospect with the Mafia who, by the sounds of it, could pretty much have gone any way he pleased feels like he has a similar backstory to the one playing out here. It's becoming increasingly evident how smart a choice it was to make Paulie the antagonist who comes to the forefront at this point of the game. It makes me raise little questions like that and wonder if you planned it to be that way.

 

It seems to be the GTA style to have people go against the odds and get away with their crimes so I would say there could've been a Commission trial that everyone beat thanks to the infamous incompetence of the GTA cops.

I reckon 1989/1990 seems to be the most likely time of a Commission Trial going by some of the police records on the LCPD database. Vincent Lupisella and Sonny Honorato were up for racketeering in 1989, Jon Gravelli was up for racketeering the following year and the head of the Pavanos (who died in 1990) could also have been mixed into it all. It makes me wonder how much thought Rockstar put into even the minor details when they seem to match up in ways like that.

 

I was figuring to feature a Rudy Giuliani character in LC78 and kill him off so the whole thing never happened... no prosecutor = no trial, right? :D

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