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Which do you think is true

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Poll: Which do you think is true (66 member(s) have cast votes)

Which do you think is true

  1. Destiny (8 votes [12.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.90%

  2. Free Will (24 votes [38.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.71%

  3. Both? (14 votes [22.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.58%

  4. Who Cares? I Live My Own life (16 votes [25.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.81%

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GerryM
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#1

Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:02 PM

Hi, These Days , there are turn of events in my life that made me ask myself about this question. Is there Really a Destiny meant for us all or none at all, or both of them exist.

On my point (due to the recent events of my life) I think Both exist, because i think we DO have a destiny but also we Can change it. although changing paths might end up Bad somehow bored.gif .

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#2

Posted 19 April 2010 - 04:13 PM

Free will without a shadow of a doubt. I don't believe that any aspect of my life is mapped, because that suggests there's someone/something mapping it out for me. I don't believe in a higher power, so the circle takes the square here. There's nothing to suggest so far that my life has been plotted as a result of a higher plan I don't understand.

Complete free will vote from me.

Tyler
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#3

Posted 19 April 2010 - 04:52 PM

I believe that fate is the stars. We have been drove a path, but the path can always be swayed.

Both for me.

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#4

Posted 19 April 2010 - 06:14 PM

I went with both. You're going to end up in one place given a certain series of events. The path you take inbetween though is largely due to you and your responses to the world. So Dynamic Destiny.

You can't really disprove destiny though... I mean you may have quibbles with whether or not it's God, but say the force pushing it is society as a whole... like mass peer pressure pushes your life towards a certain end. We don't have the tools to measure that very well either.

Rown rampage_ani.gif

WF the Hobgoblin
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#5

Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:40 PM Edited by WF the Hobgoblin, 20 April 2010 - 01:43 PM.

I voted "Who Cares? I Live My Own life".

I don't really think it's worth thinking about.

Anyone watch TrashForward?

d0mm2k8
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#6

Posted 20 April 2010 - 07:59 PM

QUOTE (WF the Hobgoblin @ Apr 20 2010, 14:40)
I voted "Who Cares? I Live My Own life".

I don't really think it's worth thinking about.

Anyone watch TrashForward?

TrashFoward? Really good imagination you got there sarcasm.gif

Why does everyone rip on that show? I love it.

Tom Toole
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#7

Posted 20 April 2010 - 08:48 PM

Haphzard way, I think that's how I would describe this topic, a haphzard way of getting anywhere. This has to do with the endless "God-no god" discussion that keeps happening. Like God both destiny and free will are bastions of hope, and once people see that there is no proof - they usually find themselves suddenly unsure. Suddenly shaken - by doubt.

What should you do? What do you want to do?

Do you want pleasure and the withdrawal that comes with it? Obsession and the frustration that inevitably also comes? Life and the death that no one escapes?

Do you want to have sex with men? Pay for sex with women? Drink poison? Get yourself high or tipsy, endlessly tipsy?

You don't choose to be yourself - you don't choose your family, or how other people will react, you don't choose success or failure - you just try - you put yourself out there and reach for something that you don't control. Because what you do control is yourself - is boring - is nothing. Nothing in a good way - but is enough ever enough for you?

Do you need to make the rules? Are you desperate to be godlike in power? Or can you negotiate, and have others who will negotiate with you?

- This is not a matter of "free will" or "fate" but of narrative - of how we understand the world. Is the world logical? Are we logical?...

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#8

Posted 22 April 2010 - 10:33 PM Edited by DOOM!, 22 April 2010 - 10:37 PM.

Free Will.

I don't smoke weed because it was 'mapped out' and anytime someone does something because "god told them to", 'destiny' makes those people look insane and ends sadly, or just gives reason for people to believe as Tom Toole said. I go about my day doing what I please, I don't look to the stars and except to see my path before me. Being a NFL Superstar, for example, isn't destiny, that is a path that individual paved for himself through training and commitment, not destiny.

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#9

Posted 23 April 2010 - 02:43 AM

I nulled vote, the idea of free will is a bit broad to just agree or disagree with. There's a lot that could be said about "free will".

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#10

Posted 23 April 2010 - 05:23 AM

But of course this isn;t your ONLY opinion on the subject, you obviously favor one, no?

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#11

Posted 25 April 2010 - 11:53 PM

Here's my view: It's both, but not in the way that you think. It's not God or the universe or anything that plans out our lives for us. It's the situations that we're born into, and who we grow up to be that make us more predisposed to make making certain decisions over others. Like someone choosing to find work instead of going to university because going to school isn't "them." He makes the decision himself, but it's everything leading up to that point in his life that makes him make that choice.

Basically, our lives are our own to do with what we want, but things we have no control over will colour our choices a particular way.

I think to have truly "free" will, we'd all have to be soul-less, emotionless robots, since we couldn't be predisposed to anything, and all choices would have equal value.

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#12

Posted 26 April 2010 - 12:30 AM

It doesn't matter. Wee have free will, but maybe it was destiny to make the decisions we choose to make. We don't know, and I for one don't care. I just try and enjoy my life.

K^2
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#13

Posted 26 April 2010 - 06:38 AM

There is neither a destiny or a free will. Both are notions invented by insecure people to make themselves feel good about their lives. It's silly. You know you have no free will because physics is deterministic, and you know there is no destiny because of chaos in a large system.

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#14

Posted 16 May 2010 - 11:53 PM

^ nope, not convinced yet lol.gif

Can you show us an example ?

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#15

Posted 17 May 2010 - 09:56 PM

What, you want me to teach you chaos theory in one post on a forum? If you are interested, pick up a book. Of course, you'll need to be thoroughly familiar with classical mechanics and partial differential equations before you can read one. Just a wild guess, but I'd say that's 3-4 years of serious mathematics and physics classes from where you are now.

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#16

Posted 17 May 2010 - 11:41 PM

QUOTE (K^2 @ Apr 25 2010, 22:38)
There is neither a destiny or a free will. Both are notions invented by insecure people to make themselves feel good about their lives. It's silly. You know you have no free will because physics is deterministic, and you know there is no destiny because of chaos in a large system.

Do these concepts not negate one another?

The Yokel
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#17

Posted 18 May 2010 - 12:26 AM

It is both. But destiny is not what you think it is. Destiny is when other people's free will collides with yours. You have a free will to cross the street for example. But you get hit by a car because the driver chose to drink because his wife chose to cheat on him etc. So destiny is nothing more then a set of events caused by free will leading up to a bigger event that has an impact on your life regardless of what you want. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing.

K^2
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#18

Posted 18 May 2010 - 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Otter @ May 17 2010, 19:41)
QUOTE (K^2 @ Apr 25 2010, 22:38)
There is neither a destiny or a free will. Both are notions invented by insecure people to make themselves feel good about their lives. It's silly. You know you have no free will because physics is deterministic, and you know there is no destiny because of chaos in a large system.

Do these concepts not negate one another?

No. Chaos is deterministic. Each trajectory is explicitly specified by governing equation. The problem is that the trajectories "right next to it" end up diverging to something completely different. If you decide to try and predict the future, the tiniest error will result in huge difference. The more complex the system, the less ability you have to predict it based on observation.

Destiny implies that there is a plan of some sort in motion. Plan requires an ability to tell what's going to happen based on what's going on now, and that simply is not there.

This whole mess becomes even more complex once you start thinking in terms of Quantum Physics. The chaos is not just deterministic; it's quantum deterministic. That means that while the future states of universe as a whole are entirely predetermined, what you are actually going to see when you get to it is entirely up in the air, because you'll see just one component of the overall superposition state, and which component you end up with is absolutely in all sense truly random.

For example, say you have a radioactive atom in a box. I can tell you in advance its exact state, but I cannot tell you what you will find when you open the box. The state is fully determined, but what you will observe is not. Even though your own state is also predetermined.

Really, when you get down to it, and this is actually part of information theory, is that how you experience the things depends more on what you don't know than on what you do know. This is why an entirely determined system will provide you with entirely random experience. Does that mean the universe is random? No, it follows its strict laws. Can you actually make a difference? Get real. But there is no speaking of destiny either, when none of it determines where you'll go and what you'll see.

Tom Toole
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#19

Posted 22 May 2010 - 08:14 AM

For an atheist you sure like to speak in doublespeak.

Free will because god gave us free will.
Fate because God knows everything.

You just atheaistized the thing, you didn't invent it, you didn't even reinvent it, you just walked into a chasm that surged unexpectedly at your feet.

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#20

Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:41 AM

QUOTE (fox09 @ Apr 25 2010, 18:53)
Here's my view: It's both, but not in the way that you think. It's not God or the universe or anything that plans out our lives for us. It's the situations that we're born into, and who we grow up to be that make us more predisposed to make making certain decisions over others. Like someone choosing to find work instead of going to university because going to school isn't "them." He makes the decision himself, but it's everything leading up to that point in his life that makes him make that choice.

Basically, our lives are our own to do with what we want, but things we have no control over will colour our choices a particular way.

I love you you beautiful, thoughtful man

I agree, but let me elaborate on my part; Where we wind up is SOMEWHAT pre-destined in the sense that if I were a white man chances are I wouldn't be going through the problems I have gone through. Like-wise, if I were an asian man, chances are that there would be different factors affecting my life, such as their culture of deep respect for elders.

The world we are born into is just that, but the PEOPLE and CULTURE in which we are born to is something else. As a Hispanic male, I have to deal with a family that is overtly religious BECAUSE of the Spanish colonization of Latin America and the system which brought out a people that are deeply catholic and religious.

I have to live with religion in a world (rather, NYC) that is much more liberal and I clash old ideas with new when it comes to Family.

If I were born Black, chances are I would be poor. I would have to deal with a country in which I'm the minority, and a culture and people that are struggling with problems within their society (place any problem within the black community here) due to a barring of their own people from success within a country that touted white Hegemony (don't deny it). It'd be even worse if my skin were darker, since media portrayal is what the public follows, and I would be SO screwed.

I could go on about black women and how they straighten their hair and, in essence, put down their own natural hair as undesirable and unwanted. They straighten it, they dye it blonde and it's just, in a way, the legacy of being put down and treating typical black features as absolute f*cking garbage. But its also the media and its portrayal of what beauty is. Do I blame them? Nope. Afterall, white is the majority, so they cater to them. No ones fault, really.

But it stands; kinky is hideous, straight and blonde is beautiful.

But I digress, destiny is real, somewhat. Some don't have enough 'will' to fight it, though. Is it my fault that El Salvador is poor and had a civil war? Nope, that's just history and consequences of a small country with few good rulers (and resources) and a people trying to find a way out (through revolutions).

But it certainly made my mother come to America, and it certainly (since she was an immigrant) made the chances of me being poor and born into crappy areas all that much higher. But we DO have free-will. It's just a matter of us fighting back against circumstances beyond our control and encountering things that, probability wise, we were bound to since we were born in circumstances that leaned towards those encounters happening.

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#21

Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:35 PM

Yeah I also think its both.

We are destined to die on day but it's up to our free will to decide on how are we going to reach our destiny.

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#22

Posted 25 June 2010 - 04:24 PM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ May 18 2010, 00:26)
You have a free will to cross the street for example. But you get hit by a car because the driver chose to drink because his wife chose to cheat on him etc. So destiny is nothing more then a set of events caused by free will leading up to a bigger event that has an impact on your life regardless of what you want. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing.

So what you are saying is that you have the free will to cross the street and the driver doesn't since the chain of events(drunk-wife cheating etc) determined him to drive the bus. Are you really that sure your actions aren't determined by past events\environment etc?

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#23

Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:28 PM

I think it's all the Destiny. What makes you think that you do things by free will is destiny. What makes you think that destiny controls you is destiny. The decisions we make, or those we don't, is still destiny. I'm not forcing the fact that it's all destiny into you, but my opinion is that it is.

I would surely vote for free will if I knew what my destiny was. The point is, we could change destiny, but only if we knew what it was.

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#24

Posted 05 July 2010 - 10:32 AM

Entirely free-will. I'm a huge supporter of the notion that anyone can achieve anything if they set their mind to it. Of course, not everything is achievable, but people's "destiny" and lives are in their own hands and can only be controlled by the individual.

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#25

Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:31 AM

Destiny is determined through free will. Every decision you make has a series of predetermined potential consequences which lead to more chances to make use of your free will. Say you decide to start smoking, that will create a web of potential destinies for you, you might get cancer and you might not, they're just branches of potential destinies created as a result of your decision to start smoking. You buy a car and as such your destiny is expanded, a whole new web of possibilities opens as a resultant of such a basic decision. Each choice opens and closes countless potential destinies regardless of whether it was intended or not.

As such, your own free will predetermines your destiny. There's no other logical way to look at it without extending into the decidedly moronic realm of metaphysics.

~王~




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