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f*cking mods are back

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viometrix
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#31

Posted 17 November 2009 - 12:08 PM

yeah i agree...i want my mods. i like playing in free mode spawning ramps and such, i cant control what other assholes do with their mods. but the premise of free mode is just that, freemode... maybe to explore the city and learn things for ranked matches, but when you are repeatedly killed 5 feet from where you started because some non modder cry baby camps there, its as bad as people abusing mods. i mean really, what fun is it playing if you see the same 20 feet of area cause you died 50 times because some idiot is camping. i want to explore, jump and screw around.

CharmingCharlie
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#32

Posted 17 November 2009 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 08:05)
Well, I do know a lot of people, who like to build objects in free mode, and I don't see the slightest thing wrong with it. Neither does Rockstar Toronto apparently, as Aru (creator of the scripthook) did get specific approval from Rockstar Toronto to allow his hook to be run in Free and Party mode, and any LAN mode.

Tell me did Aru get permission from Microsoft ? hm no I don't think he did and it is Microsoft's service. If Rockstar doesn't have a problem with Aru's work why do they keep blocking it with every patch ? Rockstar are not ok with Aru's work but they know there is f*ck all they can do about it. The point is if you use mods on GFWL service you are breaching the terms of usage for that service.

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 08:05)
I fail to see, why their pleasure should be less then the pleasure of the likes of you, who keep stating that it should all be vanilla and that whether or not it is a competitive mode is besides the question, as it's simply isn't besides the question. Certainly not if you are talking about cheating.

Yes it is besides the question, if you go into a public game you should observe the terms of usage. I show the decency and good sense to do that and so should you. If you want to do weird sh*t in your games then set up a private match. People have every right to expect on a PUBLIC game that there will be no modding or strange sh*t.

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 08:05)
I do agree that if people are so offended by someone who uses mods, that these people would go to private MP matches.

Why should people OBEYING the rules be forced to go into private MP matches ? They are not doing anything wrong they are observing the rules of the game. If I go into a pub wearing a gimp mask, nipple clamps and a barbed wire jockstrap do I have the right to tell everyone in there to "get the f*ck out if they don't like it" ? No I don't because it is a PUBLIC place and there is a common set of rules regarding how people should dress and behave.

If you use mods then joining a PUBLIC game is reprehensible and shows you have f*ck all character. I have the greatest respect for what modders do. I think the work kriller2 has done with his EnvMod V5 is fantastic but I appreciate that if I want to go into a PUBLIC game I should ensure my copy of GTA 4 is the same as everyone else's. I know decency is considered a foible these days.

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 08:05)
I for one hardly ever play MP, but if I do, I will have godmode switched on. A few days ago, after a while, two guys kept on killing me with RPG rockets, now I let them have their way, switchted to my other computer, doing some other stuff, got back to the game, and saw they still kept killing me, so I shot one in the head and left. Oh did I miss my godmode, that way, I could simply ignore these guys, as they seem to think that my pleasure is of no consequence.

You will find dick heads on every online gaming service, there is nothing that can be done about that. However you still don't have the right to use mods just because of dickheads on the service. After all two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact is there is NO justification for using mods in PUBLIC matches it is against the T&C of not just the game but also the GFWL service. Those not using mods are obeying the rules and the only justification I hear from modders is "wah wah wah I have a right to use mods" erm no you don't you are just being selfish going into public games using mods.

mkey82
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#33

Posted 17 November 2009 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Nov 17 2009, 14:08)
Tell me did Aru get permission from Microsoft ? hm no I don't think he did and it is Microsoft's service. If Rockstar doesn't have a problem with Aru's work why do they keep blocking it with every patch ? Rockstar are not ok with Aru's work but they know there is f*ck all they can do about it. The point is if you use mods on GFWL service you are breaching the terms of usage for that service.

Actually, there is no proof R* is trying to block anything. When you recompile the executable files, the memory offsets will change, hence you will need to update the tools that depend on those memory offsets. The fact that the updated tools take a lot less time to get published then it took for the first version of the tool to get out proofs this point.

About MS, they definitively aren't trying to do anything about it, they have zero interest in making their service better. It's hard to access their actual stance toward modding.

sjaak327
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#34

Posted 17 November 2009 - 12:55 PM Edited by sjaak327, 17 November 2009 - 01:06 PM.

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Nov 17 2009, 12:08)

Tell me did Aru get permission from Microsoft ? hm no I don't think he did and it is Microsoft's service.  If Rockstar doesn't have a problem with Aru's work why do they keep blocking it with every patch ?  Rockstar are not ok with Aru's work but they know there is f*ck all they can do about it.  The point is if you use mods on GFWL service you are breaching the terms of usage for that service.


Rockstar has never made it more difficult for Aru's hook to run, this is the first patch that they actually took the trouble of obscuring usage of the native script engine and it's commands. Of course this will be dealt with rather sooner then later. Previous patches did absolutely nothing to prevent the hook from running (other then changed memory offsets, which is unavoidable since GTAIV.exe changed with every patch).

He probably didn't receive permission from Microsoft, and allthough it is their services, I would think that explicit permission from Microsoft isn't needed, they sure don't take any measures at preventing cheating either. (does anyone know of someone actually been banned from the service ?)

The bottom line here is that Rockstar seems to have taken the easy (read cheap) way out, instead of offering a cheat free MP experience, but let people in SP have the ability to mod the game (and by doing so extend the playability of the game), they now blocked it in both SP and MP, now if this is the way Rockstar wishes to treat it's customers, I will vote with my feet and not pay any money for future Rockstar games. Another thing to note is that until Rockstar goes with some kind of dedicated MP server setup, the problem which we are discussing here will not cease to exist. There is simply no technical way to disable the scripting system in the current setup.

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Nov 17 2009, 12:08)

Why should people OBEYING the rules be forced to go into private MP matches ?  They are not doing anything wrong they are observing the rules of the game.  If I go into a pub wearing a gimp mask, nipple clamps and a barbed wire jockstrap do I have the right to tell everyone in there to "get the f*ck out if they don't like it" ?  No I don't because it is a PUBLIC place and there is a common set of rules regarding how people should dress and behave.


Hmm maybe I wasn't clear, I actually agree with you on that point, modders should create private MP matches.

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Nov 17 2009, 12:08)

The fact is there is NO justification for using mods in PUBLIC matches it is against the T&C of not just the game but also the GFWL service. Those not using mods are obeying the rules and the only justification I hear from modders is "wah wah wah I have a right to use mods" erm no you don't you are just being selfish going into public games using mods.


Whilst you may have a legal point (according to the EULA at least, which we all know isn't worth the paper it was printed on, especially in the EU), I do believe, that people should be allowed to run mods in non competitive MP modes, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed, I have witnessed quite a few MP free mode matches, where people just had fun with building mods, and other related stuff. Now if this means it has to be private, than fine with me. I would believe Liberty city was big enough to accomodate for all types of players, not only Vanilla ones.

FullMetal
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#35

Posted 17 November 2009 - 01:16 PM

This may sound easy and a childish 'point to blame' argument but it's all 'Rockstar's' own fault. If they'd made some proper servers and/or possibilities for people to create their own servers people could actually votekick people and/or ban people who ABUSE the ability to modify the game.

Because, people seem to be ignorant. Modders =/= all hackers. And in fact, you shouldn't call them modders either. People like to customise their games if they can... well some gamers. I am one of them and I think it's great that we have this possibility. Shamefully people abuse this feature... but on the other hand, they can.

Yes, thanks to people who make it possible to customise the game... but on the other hand, why can't we do anything against it?

I for one use weaponskins/playerskins and such in IV and in other GTA's I used alot of other modifications (that improved playerskins, weaponmodels, some carmodels, higher resolution textures for trees/radar/...).

In other words; mods that gave you only one advantage; it looks better (or well: it was customised to suit your preferences).

Rockstar tried to detect modified content and disallow these people to go online, but you will always have hackers and such. Though, if games are well designed (well, the multiplayer system) you can get rid of them easily and can be detected/removed from games.

Though, there lies the problem in my opinion... since we have this crappy matchmaking system and GFWL (and I think Microsoft doesn't even punish people who are 'flagged' as hackers/abusers)... we are truly blessed.

Edit:
QUOTE
It's hard to access their actual stance toward modding.

mkey82: Microsoft doesn't give a crap about PC gaming and if we need to guess what their opinion about modding is. Well, they probably hate it and would probably disallow such a thing.

We all know how brilliant GFWL is so yeah, it proves alot.

NikoB IV
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#36

Posted 17 November 2009 - 04:10 PM

Well there are a lot of guys online right now with their rocketlaunching pistols and such.
I also saw a few with godmode, don't ask me how.
Seems they cracked the system.

Rob.Zombie
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#37

Posted 17 November 2009 - 04:34 PM

How? Set the damage in weaponsinfo.xml to 0 and there you have your "god mode".
Anyway I'm very happy now, cuz that's all I wanted to have. Realistic handling lines, so now I can actually cruise in the city. I can even set custom car colors, so all I have to do is use the Paintshop. Since I'm only using it in freemode it doesn't bother any1.
As for the topic title: It's about to begin. It's gonna be worse...

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#38

Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:35 PM

QUOTE (fullmetal @ Nov 17 2009, 15:16)
mkey82: Microsoft doesn't give a crap about PC gaming and if we need to guess what their opinion about modding is. Well, they probably hate it and would probably disallow such a thing.

We all know how brilliant GFWL is so yeah, it proves alot.

And what kind of cheat protection did they implement in GFWL? None? That's right. So, you are assuming they don't like modding based on ... ?

Chris1508
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#39

Posted 17 November 2009 - 06:04 PM

Why cant we all just play like on the console no cheats just some fair fun

CharmingCharlie
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#40

Posted 17 November 2009 - 06:27 PM

QUOTE (mkey82 @ Nov 17 2009, 18:35)
And what kind of cheat protection did they implement in GFWL? None? That's right. So, you are assuming they don't like modding based on ... ?

So because there is no cheat protection that automatically means they must want cheating sarcasm.gif I mean come on mkey82 I know you aren't that naive. It clearly states in the T&C for live that modding or altering the game is against the rules.

Personally I have nothing but disgust for mp modders, people using and creating mods for mp are selfish and in no way shape or form GTA fans. You scream that "oh we are prolonging the life of GTA 4" no you aren't you have YET again killed off MP to legitimate users. I guess I am going to go back to single player only again then since it is the only way I can play with out cheating modders.

I can only hope that the next GTA that comes too the PC Rockstar sees sense and just removes multiplayer from the PC version altogether. After all from the legitimate players point of view there is little point to MP in GTA since the modders soon ruin it for them.

sjaak327
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#41

Posted 17 November 2009 - 06:40 PM

^ Yeah we get the picture, people that use mods online are second class citizens, and couldn't possibly be a GTA fan. It must be nice living in a simple world where everything is black and white, and no grey exist whatsoever.

People who mod, and are in no way interfering or harrasing other players, are tarred with the same brush. As is so often the case when people discuss real world problems, like immigration.

Of course being selfish could also very easily be applied to people who appear to be unwilling to compromise, luckily in the real world a compromise could and would be reached, without them, we would live in a truly unmanageable world.


OverTheBelow
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#42

Posted 17 November 2009 - 06:50 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Nov 17 2009, 18:27)
QUOTE (mkey82 @ Nov 17 2009, 18:35)
And what kind of cheat protection did they implement in GFWL? None? That's right. So, you are assuming they don't like modding based on ... ?

So because there is no cheat protection that automatically means they must want cheating sarcasm.gif I mean come on mkey82 I know you aren't that naive. It clearly states in the T&C for live that modding or altering the game is against the rules.

Personally I have nothing but disgust for mp modders, people using and creating mods for mp are selfish and in no way shape or form GTA fans. You scream that "oh we are prolonging the life of GTA 4" no you aren't you have YET again killed off MP to legitimate users. I guess I am going to go back to single player only again then since it is the only way I can play with out cheating modders.

I can only hope that the next GTA that comes too the PC Rockstar sees sense and just removes multiplayer from the PC version altogether. After all from the legitimate players point of view there is little point to MP in GTA since the modders soon ruin it for them.

make some friends and play in a private server

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#43

Posted 17 November 2009 - 06:53 PM

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 19:40)
^ Yeah we get the picture, people that use mods online are second class citizens, and couldn't possibly be a GTA fan. It must be nice living in a simple world where everything is black and white, and no grey exist whatsoever.

Actually it turns out that the people wanting to play GTA 4 as Rockstar intended are now the second class citizen, we are being pushed out by the sh*tty tools you lot make, you know like your "god mode" which makes any kind of on line gaming useless to a legitimate GTA gamer.

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 19:40)
People who mod, and are in no way interfering or harrasing other players, are tarred with the same brush. As is so often the case when people discuss real world problems, like immigration.

They create the tools, the tools get abused and they should get the blame too. Don't you even try to come across as the injured party here. I now have a game that has no use to me on line so I have had to go back to single player because of the tools modders create.

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 19:40)
Of course being selfish could also very easily be applied to people who appear to be unwilling to compromise, luckily in the real world a compromise could and would be reached, without them, we would live in a truly unmanageable world.

Naturally you are not being selfish at all are you ? No you just want to use your god mode and spawning because YOU want to use it. I want to play legitimately on MP GTA 4 following the terms and conditions laid down in the game and as part of GFWL so naturally I am being selfish aren't I sarcasm.gif . Yep that makes perfect sense any one that doesn't want to use mods and just play the game according to the rules is a right selfish bastard.

You won sjaak327 go and do a little lap of honour, once again modders and people like you have now ruined on line gaming for legitimate GTA fans, give yourself a pat on the back I am sure it is something to be proud off, that "selfless" streak you have in you sarcasm.gif

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#44

Posted 17 November 2009 - 07:04 PM

If you would have read my post properly, you would have noticed that I used the word compromise.

Nothing more needs to be said really.

As to mod creators who ruin MP, I have made every effort possible to prevent my mods from being used in competitive game modes, and to the best of my knowledge they have not been used in deathmatch, races or other such modes. Yes they are used in free and party, because that's where I personally believe they should be used.

Apart from simple mode selection limitations, my mods have tons of code to prevent mis-use in MP in ways that are not even apparent for most casual users.

To say that I don't have the slighest consideration for MP is therefore false.

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#45

Posted 17 November 2009 - 07:09 PM

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 19:04)
If you would have read my post properly, you would have noticed that I used the word compromise.

Nothing more needs to be said really.

As to mod creators who ruin MP, I have made every effort possible to prevent my mods from being used in competitive game modes, and to the best of my knowledge they have not been used in deathmatch, races or other such modes. Yes they are used in free and party, because that's where I personally believe they should be used.

Apart from simple mode selection limitations, my mods have tons of code to prevent mis-use in MP in ways that are not even apparent for most casual users.

To say that I don't have the slighest consideration for MP is therefore false.

you don't measure code in tons you measure it in kb


lol.gif

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#46

Posted 17 November 2009 - 07:21 PM

i hate modders... its so much fun to play free mode without hacks or anything..

thaCURSEDpie
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#47

Posted 17 November 2009 - 07:48 PM Edited by thaCURSEDpie, 17 November 2009 - 08:11 PM.

I agree with supermortalhuman. Please please PLEASE stop calling the things that are actually cheats, mods!

Mods are created to enhance the player's gameplay experience. Cheats are created for the sole purpose of cheating. C'mon people, learn the difference, it's not that hard.


To explain what I myself do to prevent my mods (actually "mod" now, but I'm busy wink.gif ) from being used as cheats:
I use the .Net scripthook for my mods. Therefore, my mods are dependant on this scripthook. And this scripthook itself blocks multiplayer altogether.

See? Modders aren not evil, cheaters are.



If this keeps on going like this modding will get a bad name, in the same sence that hacking has got a bad name now.
(Hackers aren't the bad-guys. Most people don't seem to understand this. "Crackers" and "Black hat hackers" are the badguys, but hackers, nope. Do some research before you respond, please)


EDIT:
Oh no, not you too CharmingCharlie! I thought you would be better than this, I thought you would know better than to blame "the modders". I guess I was wrong.
You say the modders are to blame because they created the tools to make cheats.

First of all:
Not all modders are capable of creating the tools you mention (I myself am not, for example tounge.gif ). These modders only use the tools given to them. As such, it is proven that these modders do no harm to multiplayer GTA:IV.

Second of all:
The modders that create the tools. If you are going to blame them, where are you going to draw the line?
ISPs allow people to download illegal stuff. Are they responsible too?

Take note here: without ISPs, no download. Without modding tools no cheats. (at least, according to you. But I'm a bit skeptic and I think the cheaters would've made their own tools if the modders hadn't made them). See the problem?

Or, better still:
Phycisists who worked on unraveling the mysteries covering neutrons, protons and quarks. Without them, no atomic bomb. Are they responsible for countless Japanese deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I think not. And I truely hope you agree with me.

Thus follows that the you can not blame the modders who create the tools.
Thus follows that you can not blame any of the modders.


EDIT2:
I suggest we open up a topic (or maybe this one) where mod creators are allowed to respond to all these false allegations. These allegations are nothing but slander and in the long run will have people associating "modding" with "cheating" (some people already are, I've noticed sad.gif ).
Maybe I'll just set-up a new topic, explaining everything for all you people who just can't seem to understand that MODDING ISN'T THE SAME AS CHEATING. (yes I'm getting pissed now and I'm trying NOT to use any swear words, but it's hard for me.)

EDIT3:
@OverTheBelow
You don't measure code in tons or kilo bits, you measure it in lines. (but you could express the size of a compiled file in kB)

SWEETSAPRIK
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#48

Posted 17 November 2009 - 08:13 PM

Can't we all just get along?

Personally I see both sides of this. There was a time when I had no intention of using any mods. Not even the ones that don't alter anyone's playing experience but mine. Then, after having the game all but ruined for me by a combination of sh*tty coding, QA/testers that were either in a coma or nonexistent, and a constant stream of griefers, I basically gave up on MP. Multiplayer was rendered almost completely useless to me even before the cheaters, then the cheaters pushed it that last bit, to the point where public MP had not a single redeeming aspect.

At that point the only thing I could do was wait for one or two of the ten or so people who don't need to die in a fire to be online, and enter a private freemode game with them. At some point while playing with them (most of them being people that help run a certain GTA fansite you may have heard of ph34r.gif ) I noticed that they had mods installed. Mods which actually made the game fun again. Mods that kept me playing the game, instead of putting it down and playing something made by a different company. Mods which weren't used to cheat unsuspecting people, and were used only in private freemode matches. Mods that returned some fun to a game that had been ruined by Rockstar's laziness and ineptitude just as much as by cheaters and griefers.

The idea that Rockstar is completely opposed to modding is just silly. For example, this site has had modding sections since before anyone who's posted in this topic so far joined (including me), as well as having more than one site on the network specifically devoted to modding. Hell, one could argue that mods like SA-MP are better in many respects than their own attempt at MP in IV. That didn't stop Rockstar from inviting people from GTAF to NYC to play the game before it's release. It didn't stop someone from Rockstar Toronto from joining the site to offer help.

Rockstar can't condone modding, lest someone create an unfortunate mod that gets them bad publicity, causes them legal problems (again), and therefore hurts what they (like any company) care most about, their money. At the same time, they aren't stupid, so they must know that modding and communities like this help keep interest in their games alive in the years between releases. As well as offering gamers the technical help they seem unwilling or unable to provide most of the time. Technical help and interest that directly correlates to loyalty, and therefore guaranteed sales of their next game, sales that they will get regardless of (arguably inflated) reviews or ratings.

At the same time I doubt they want their customers' playing experience ruined by selfish twats who can't enjoy the game if they aren't ruining someone else's fun. I doubt they want the entire point of ranked matches or competitive modes destroyed because some people can't play the game if they're not invincible, unbeatable, or randomly spawning ramps/tugboats/what have you.

I really don't think the problem lies with people that insist on a vanilla install, or people that enjoy playing with mods. I think the real problem is people that refuse to show any respect for the people that disagree with them. It's a f*cking game, not a religious war, I don't see why people can't just try to enjoy it without sh*tting all over someone else's fun.

/me gets ready for everyone to rip him a new asshole.

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#49

Posted 17 November 2009 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Nov 17 2009, 18:53)
QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 19:40)
^ Yeah we get the picture, people that use mods online are second class citizens, and couldn't possibly be a GTA fan. It must be nice living in a simple world where everything is black and white, and no grey exist whatsoever.

Actually it turns out that the people wanting to play GTA 4 as Rockstar intended are now the second class citizen, we are being pushed out by the sh*tty tools you lot make, you know like your "god mode" which makes any kind of on line gaming useless to a legitimate GTA gamer.

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 19:40)
People who mod, and are in no way interfering or harrasing other players, are tarred with the same brush. As is so often the case when people discuss real world problems, like immigration.

They create the tools, the tools get abused and they should get the blame too. Don't you even try to come across as the injured party here. I now have a game that has no use to me on line so I have had to go back to single player because of the tools modders create.

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 19:40)
Of course being selfish could also very easily be applied to people who appear to be unwilling to compromise, luckily in the real world a compromise could and would be reached, without them, we would live in a truly unmanageable world.

Naturally you are not being selfish at all are you ? No you just want to use your god mode and spawning because YOU want to use it. I want to play legitimately on MP GTA 4 following the terms and conditions laid down in the game and as part of GFWL so naturally I am being selfish aren't I sarcasm.gif . Yep that makes perfect sense any one that doesn't want to use mods and just play the game according to the rules is a right selfish bastard.

You won sjaak327 go and do a little lap of honour, once again modders and people like you have now ruined on line gaming for legitimate GTA fans, give yourself a pat on the back I am sure it is something to be proud off, that "selfless" streak you have in you sarcasm.gif

CC i hate to disagree with you on the mod makers being to blame...used correctly they are good tools... and i dont see every gun manufacturer in court every time some thug kills an innoccent.... making the tools is not bad, misusing them is. i play modded, i like making ramps, i like not having to run around looking for a car. i only play in free mode, god mode on, and you know something, almost 2 yrs on this game and i have not killed a single person in free mode modded (not a single one) i use my tools correctly, i dont abuse them

thaCURSEDpie
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#50

Posted 17 November 2009 - 08:24 PM

Hey Sweets, nice post smile.gif .

I agree with you. There's just one part I don't fully get:
QUOTE

I really don't think the problem lies with people that insist on a vanilla install, or people that enjoy playing with mods. I think the real problem is people that refuse to show any respect for the people that disagree with them. It's a f*cking game, not a religious war, I don't see why people can't just try to enjoy it without sh*tting all over someone else's fun.


Do you mean "respect" through actions. (so disrespecting means cheating) or "respect" through words. (flamewars and so forth).
I firmly believe that respect in both ways is necessary (so no cheating), but public discussion is very important.

We (as the GTA community) need to make up our minds. It's true that this is the largest GTA fansite on the web (at least to my knowledge). So what goes on here will influence the whole GTA scene. That's why I think we need to have a discussion here on this site.


Any way, on the topic of Rockstar:
The thing that has always bothered me about Rockstar is their additude. They don't communicate with the community. They don't respond to mails.
A good example is the latest patch, in which they tried (it's cracked already) to incorporate a form of anti-cheat. This is awesome of course, but the execution of this was done poorly. They should have talked with the modding community (or at least the community as a whole) about the cheating issue, and how to address it.

The way they have done it now completely blocks off script mods, which is a Bad Thing since it also blocks singleplayer mods.
And as I said before, it's not done in a good way, because it's cracked already.

So if Rockstar would just take Valve as an example (who are totally awesome, for a number of reasons:
- they fully support modding
- they listen to their community
- they respond to e-mails (I even sent one to Gabe Newell and got a response from him)
- they actively work WITH modders (hell, Counter-Strike would otherwise be non-existant)
-....)

SWEETSAPRIK
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#51

Posted 17 November 2009 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (thaCURSEDpie @ Nov 17 2009, 16:24)
Hey Sweets, nice post smile.gif .

I agree with you. There's just one part I don't fully get:
QUOTE

I really don't think the problem lies with people that insist on a vanilla install, or people that enjoy playing with mods. I think the real problem is people that refuse to show any respect for the people that disagree with them. It's a f*cking game, not a religious war, I don't see why people can't just try to enjoy it without sh*tting all over someone else's fun.


Do you mean "respect" through actions. (so disrespecting means cheating) or "respect" through words. (flamewars and so forth).
I firmly believe that respect in both ways is necessary (so no cheating), but public discussion is very important.

In terms of in this topic, respect as in words. (To a point anyway. tounge2.gif )

In terms of in game, respect as in actions.

I would not have the audacity to play in ranked game with gameplay altering mods installed. Nor would I play in any unranked/but still competitive game mode with mods installed. I won't even play on a public freemode server with mods installed. Not even if I'm not using any of the features of the mod at that time.

When I had the trainer installed I restricted myself to private matches where everyone was okay with it. In most cases, matches where everyone has the same mods installed. I don't want to ruin anyone else's fun, anymore than I want them to ruin mine.

But then again I'm not exactly the average player. As compared to the dicks that insist on griefing, I'm that guy that will pick you up out of the water in the chopper and give you a lift, just so you don't have to swim forever, or run around for five minutes looking for a vehicle. Personally, I find it to be more fun to be helpful to people ingame, than to run around screwing their day.

CharmingCharlie
  • CharmingCharlie

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#52

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:00 PM

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 20:04)
If you would have read my post properly, you would have noticed that I used the word compromise.

How are modders willing to compromise ? All I see when ever a new patch is released is who can get round the new measures Rockstar has taken to make MP playable again for legitimate users. I have seen no evidence that modders are interested in compromise. Most people here think it is perfectly fine to go into a public game with your mods enabled.

QUOTE (thaCURSEDpie @ Nov 17 2009, 20:48)
Or, better still:
Phycisists who worked on unraveling the mysteries covering neutrons, protons and quarks. Without them, no atomic bomb. Are they responsible for countless Japanese deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I think not. And I truely hope you agree with me.

Slightly flawed example, I am sure the first early physicists would have thought twice about what they were doing if they had an idea what it was going to lead up too. Modders ACTIVELY sought to make Rockstars online checks invalid. They actively sought away to destroy all of Rockstars attempts to make MP viable for the millions of people that play GTA 4 unmodded.

QUOTE (Sweets @ Nov 17 2009, 21:13)
Can't we all just get along?

I would love to get along, the only problem is I have no multiplayer game now and apparently I am being selfish for wanting an unspoiled multiplayer game free of mods. So I do apologise for wanting what I paid for it is deeply selfish of me tounge.gif

QUOTE (Sweets @ Nov 17 2009, 21:13)
The idea that Rockstar is completely opposed to modding is just silly. For example, this site has had modding sections since before anyone who's posted in this topic so far joined (including me), as well as having more than one site on the network specifically devoted to modding. Hell, one could argue that mods like SA-MP are better in many respects than their own attempt at MP in IV. That didn't stop Rockstar from inviting people from GTAF to NYC to play the game before it's release. It didn't stop someone from Rockstar Toronto from joining the site to offer help.

With every patch Rockstar has released they have tried to lock mods out of MP gaming, seriously how much more of a clue do they have to send ? They do not want people going on line with mods but no the modding community just won't accept that so they come up with this bull that "oh it is ok to use mods in free mode". NO IT ISN'T Rockstar are clearly saying it is UNACCEPTABLE to go online with mods. Hell they even lock out mods in SP now so they are not that big a fan of SP mods either.

QUOTE (viometrix @ Nov 17 2009, 21:16)
CC i hate to disagree with you on the mod makers being to blame...used correctly they are good tools... and i dont see every gun manufacturer in court every time some thug kills an innoccent.... making the tools is not bad, misusing them is. i play modded, i like making ramps, i like not having to run around looking for a car. i only play in free mode, god mode on, and you know something, almost 2 yrs on this game and i have not killed a single person in free mode modded (not a single one) i use my tools correctly, i dont abuse them

Well that is how you feel, right now I have no multiplayer in GTA 4 because every time I go on the whole place is infested with cheaters and people using mods "legitimately". So as a vanilla user of GTA 4 there is pretty much f*ck all point to me going on line. However I realise I am being selfish what with me being a user of GTA 4 and wanting to play the game how the developer intended it is disgusting of me to expect to go into a public match and expect to meet people with the same facilities as me in the game.

I was just getting back into GTA 4 MP and was loving ranked racing, now it has all gone to sh*t again because the modders did such an excellent job of making all of Rockstars checks obsolete. Again you feel it is accepted for you to go into a PUBLIC game and use mods, IT ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. It does not matter what mods you use, if you are going to join a public game then you should have a vanilla UNMODDED copy of GTA 4.

I personally don't care what you do in SP, I don't care if you mod the game to high hell and only play in private games. If that is your choice then fine, but if you go into public matches ranked/unranked freemode or partymode you should have an UNMODDED copy of the game. When I had EnvMod V5 installed I never once went online (since online was pretty much f*cked anyway).. That is how it should be you want to mod then stick to SP or Private servers and make your mods only work in SP and private servers. If modders do that I will have a great deal of respect for them, but making their mods work with PUBLIC modes is unacceptable.

ArKTisK
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#53

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:15 PM

i dont know about you, but i can NEVER find any ranked matches. im from the south east area of the us, i know its not a firewall issue as ive even tried disabling it entirely. does anyone else have this issue?

all i want is to be able to play fair and balanced gta multiplayer online, like its f*cking advertised. if i had known that mods would have been this much of a problem, i would have just pirated the game. i would play lan games if i knew anyone that actually had a computer that could run it, so thats not really an option for me. if anyone wants to start up a dedicated community for mod free multiplayer, or if thier already is one, count me in. im sick and tired of this. just the fact that mods exist mean that people that are good get called out as cheaters as well. now you never know, and just leads to intense frustration to those people who just want to play it as it was designed. unfortunatly due to human nature, some people play online games for the ego boost that they are actually good at something in life, and thus will do anything it takes to be better than the rest. some people just get a thrill out of f*cking up other peoples good time. becuase of these issues, modding gta4 specifically will be more of a problem than a benefit.

Nillus
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#54

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:19 PM

QUOTE (supermortalhuman @ Nov 16 2009, 20:51)
Stop calling them mods.

They are not mods. They are HACKS. Online things are cheats and hacks NOT mods.

Thanks, just wanted to undo some of the damage you could do by using the wrong terms like this.

Exactly. MODS ARE GOOD. DRUGS AND HACKS ARE BAAD. Mkay? nervous.gif

sjaak327
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#55

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:32 PM

CC, again there is no evidence whatsoever that apart from the latest patch, Rockstar has done anything to prevent hooking into the scripting engine.

We also have the creator of the hook saying he got specific permission from Rockstar Toronto, that it is okay to enable the hook in Free and Party mode on Live and any mode on Lan.

The fact that Rockstar did what they did with the latest patch, to me is a clear indication that the "other scripthook" (the one that is free to all modes), is the target of the block they now put in.

The fact that there are clear restrictions in Aru's hook is the best evidence that modders are willing to compromise. The only unfortunate episode is the fact, that an earlier incarnation of his hook was open source, that incarnation is being abused by a relatively small number of mod creators. I hope for your sake (as well as mine) that they will not succeed in abusing it after this patch.

This way, apart from free/party, there are still a dozen mp modes, that are all competitive, that would be absolutely cheat free. Please also note, that Alexander's filecheckfix is meant to enable people to go online with small harmless mods (like the env mod you mentioned a couple of times), and does not allow people with modded handling.dat or weaponsinfo.xml to go online. Now if he only managed to make it crack free it would be ideal. Here lies the problem with the p2p MP setup, not only Rockstar is being outsmarted if you will, also mod creators who have done everything in their power to prevent MP cheating find out that these measures are not enough.




mkey82
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#56

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:34 PM Edited by mkey82, 17 November 2009 - 09:40 PM.

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Nov 17 2009, 20:27)
QUOTE (mkey82 @ Nov 17 2009, 18:35)
And what kind of cheat protection did they implement in GFWL? None? That's right. So, you are assuming they don't like modding based on ... ?

So because there is no cheat protection that automatically means they must want cheating sarcasm.gif I mean come on mkey82 I know you aren't that naive. It clearly states in the T&C for live that modding or altering the game is against the rules.

Oh come, twist my words into oblivion. You were speaking about MS and R*'s resoluteness to stop modding and cheating and whatever the f*ck you want to call it - the fact is they did nothing to prevent it. NOTHING. So yeah, create a "service" that offers zero services to it's users is daft and lame at the same time. Not soemthing I would expect from companies that are so uptight when it comes to modding sarcasm.gif

And about the T&C, that little thingy nobody ever reads - yeah, each piece of software comes with it's own. And people still modify files, code and whatnot. Who's being naive now? They expect people will not cheat because it says they shouldn't in T&C? Well, let's just take a small break and have a good hard laugh, shall we?

Like I said, every piece of code comes with the EULA. Also, most programs come with other stuff, like packers, exe protectors and whatnot, even though it's explicitly FORBIDDEN to edit anything. But people do it anyway, so some guy out there said "I want another layer of protection. I realize no protection system will be 100% bulletproof, but I do want to make a statement in this regard as I realize people will want to fiddle worth our code". This is not valid for the guys at SM though, is it? No, they were just like "yeah, we're super ultra against modding and cheating on our servers" - "so what did you do to prevent it?" - "we had our legal department sketch up a really vicious section 8 in the eula, which forbids any attempts against our code to be made". Just f*cking great, we got the eula protecting us.

Also, on R* level of involvement, I never heard them saying anything ultra against modding, they know the PC GTA fan base is built around mods so I'm guessing completely locking out modding would pretty much kill the PC version. You might say that PC version is not that profitable anyway, but why the hell did they publish one then? Because of good ol' times or maybe it's about the green stuff that doesn't stick between your teeth?

My point being
a) R* did nothing to prevent modding in GTAIV (ball part of GTA SA V2.0) in single player
b) MS did nothing to prevent cheating on their servers

And you still claim MS and R* are ardent when it comes to prevent modding/cheating?


Sweets, have a cookie for your sane and considering thought process.

Nillus
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#57

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (mkey82 @ Nov 17 2009, 21:34)
My point being
a) R* did nothing to prevent modding in GTAIV (ball part of GTA SA V2.0) in single player
b) MS did nothing to prevent cheating on their servers

And you still claim MS and R* are ardent when it comes to prevent modding/cheating?

I asked my friend at MS (Lionhead for Fable III) about GTA IV cheating in multiplayer and he said that it's totally R*'s problem, appearantly it's not MS's business and it's up to the developer. sad.gif
So yeah, we're pretty much screwed if this is all that R* can do.

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#58

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Nillus @ Nov 17 2009, 23:38)
QUOTE (mkey82 @ Nov 17 2009, 21:34)
My point being
a) R* did nothing to prevent modding in GTAIV (ball part of GTA SA V2.0) in single player
b) MS did nothing to prevent cheating on their servers

And you still claim MS and R* are ardent when it comes to prevent modding/cheating?

I asked my friend at MS (Lionhead for Fable III) about GTA IV cheating in multiplayer and he said that it's totally R*'s problem, appearantly it's not MS's business and it's up to the developer. sad.gif
So yeah, we're pretty much screwed if this is all that R* can do.

Oh come on, it's their MP system, it has nothing (or next to nothing) to do with R*. GFWL doesn't feature any sort of protection. That's all.

CharmingCharlie
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#59

Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:03 PM

QUOTE (sjaak327 @ Nov 17 2009, 22:32)
CC, again there is no evidence whatsoever that apart from the latest patch, Rockstar has done anything to prevent hooking into the scripting engine.

There is plenty of damn evidence that Rockstar don't want mods you just refuse to acknowledge it. Every single patch Rockstar has released has LOCKED modding out till the modders found away around the checks. I mean for christ sakes they even have a directory scan now to check if you have a modded game. Now seriously does that sound like a company that wants to encourage modding ?

As for that email you keep ramming in my face from Rockstar, I personally believe that was a mistake by Rockstar and have now given modders pretty much a blank cheque to do whatever the hell they like and go "oh but Rockstar said I could do it".

The fact is the minute "legitimate" modders bring out the tools to disable the fixes MP goes straight back down hill again. I suppose that is just a coincidence is it ? At the end of the day you win, the modders win they always win. The poor bastard that just wants to play the game as the developer intended loses every f*cking time but hey they are being selfish aren't they.

So there you go that is pretty much all I have to say on the matter, MP has been f*cked up pretty much for good now. I am not even going to bother with MP if they release a new patch why should I ? we only get about 2 days of peace before the cosy wonderfully good intentioned modders totally negate all the protections and make MP absolutely useless again.

Nillus
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#60

Posted 17 November 2009 - 10:07 PM Edited by Nillus, 17 November 2009 - 10:09 PM.

QUOTE (mkey82 @ Nov 17 2009, 21:41)
QUOTE (Nillus @ Nov 17 2009, 23:38)
QUOTE (mkey82 @ Nov 17 2009, 21:34)
My point being
a) R* did nothing to prevent modding in GTAIV (ball part of GTA SA V2.0) in single player
b) MS did nothing to prevent cheating on their servers

And you still claim MS and R* are ardent when it comes to prevent modding/cheating?

I asked my friend at MS (Lionhead for Fable III) about GTA IV cheating in multiplayer and he said that it's totally R*'s problem, appearantly it's not MS's business and it's up to the developer. sad.gif
So yeah, we're pretty much screwed if this is all that R* can do.

Oh come on, it's their MP system, it has nothing (or next to nothing) to do with R*. GFWL doesn't feature any sort of protection. That's all.

He said it's still R*s problem.
"GFWL isn't really a multiplayer system, it's more a set of tools"

"Yes
It offers some basic protection
ASLR, Executable Code Checksumming etc"


He said it's up to the developer IF and HOW they use these 'tools'. So yeah R* probably uses some of the GFWL platform anti-cheat software, but hasn't added their own, additional security because it's their first multiplayer game on the PC? confused.gif




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