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The Possible Trinity

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Versityle
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#211

Posted 04 December 2009 - 06:35 PM

QUOTE (wryan10 @ Dec 4 2009, 00:31)
hey versityle

I've been playing along your list as you've been updating your times of day notes and have gotten up to It's War. It's been really good so far. I've got a couple of very small points to mention for consideration and one that's kind of crazy but worth mentioning.

Before I start I just wanted to say that both you and MOB seem to be pretty damn sharp catching things so no worries if you disagree with anything I'm about to list. These are just suggestions and I in no way expect anybody to change their lists just because I think they should.

Ok

First point is a REALLY small one but during the cut-scene for Hung Out To Dry Vlad mentions Niko doing Bull In A China Shop 'a few days ago' so I'd suggest maybe adding a small note to wait a day after shaking down the store owner before you initiate Hung Out To Dry. Since they come right after the other in your list I just took the day in between to do cab missions for roman and other activities.

I also noticed you have Niko's last mission as the LAST mission on your list. During Luis's mission 'Departure Time' they mention Dimitri already being dead right when Luis arrives at the 'fun fair.' So if you choose 'deal' in Niko's campaign Dimitri would still be alive during Departure Time and that would cause a continuity error. Sorry if somebody already brought this up to you.


Ok, now for the crazy one. Alot of people have brought up how awkward it is to kill Johnny and then not have Billy learn about it till days later. MOB offered up a pretty reasonable explanation recently, but it still just didn't sit right with me. So I tried to manipulate your list in order to have Billy mention Johnny within 24 hours of him being killed, while still having Niko complete Roman's Sorrow, and still stay true to your times of day ideas.(i had to fudge them a little bit, but i pulled it off)

here's your current list:

20. [J]Liberty City Choppers
21. [BG]Angles in America
22. [MF]No Love Lost
23. [MF]Rigged to Blow
24. [J]Bad Cop Drop
25. [DR]The Master and the Molotov
26. [DR]Russian Revolution

27. [R]Roman's Sorrow
28. [BG]It's War

here's how I changed it

20. Liberty City Choppers
21. Angels in America
22. No Love Lost
23. Rigged to Blow
24. The Master and The Molotov
25. Russian Revolution
26. Roman's Sorrow
27. Bad Cop Drop
28. It's War

This gets hot and heavy for Niko as your doing so many missions over a short span of time(my play style is usually one mission for each character a day) AND it ends your chapter on It's War instead of Russian Revolution, BUT it works as a chapter closing. Everything gets crazy until the new beginning of Escuala of the Streets where it can settle back into a normal pace.

I started Angels in America around 4 in the morning after Liberty City Choppers. I tend to see eye to eye with MOB here that Billy just got out and he's partying the whole night away.(jim also mentions going back to the clubhouse after LCC and you see him chilling in the opening cutscene of AIA). By starting it at 4 you still get the feel of Billy JUST getting out while having the mission run it's course in the daylight. I ended this off at around 08:30 in the morning on a sunday.

So then Niko triggers no love lost around 9 and meets Johnny around 10. So far so good. Then I head straight back to Faustins triggering RTB early afternoon.(Faustins out looking for dimitri whose probably meeting with petrovic and bulgarin while the Mrs. enjoys some tea on a sunday afternoon).

You do Rigged to Blow and end it late afternoon. Then as your driving home you get the dimitri call and meet him on firefly just as the suns going down and hit up faustin in his club right around 21-22 o'clock.

After you kill Faustin you call Dimitri when you get home to see if he has your money. He does(he's been planning this the whole day). You end russian revolution in the early morning, go see roman for roman's sorrow and end up early morning the day after no love's lost.

Then it's back to Johnny and if you perform one mission after the other you end up triggering It's War late enough(say 2 or 3 in the morning) that the lawyer could still be partying with Billy, and you finish the mission around 24 hours after Jason was killed(early morning), and right after Roman's Sorrow.(so when the news story about the cab depot comes on in [email protected] you're right in time)

Now, this is pretty intense and I could definately see you thinking it's just too much to try and get in there for the list. I just wanted to mention that it can be done in a realistic way without sacrificing continuity or the sense of realism you guys are trying to achieve.

Just some thoughts and again thanks to you and MOB for all the hard work. I'm having a blast playing so far....

I can understand peoples concern with the distance between "No Love Lost" and "It's War" but to be honest it never really bothered me. The way I always saw it is that Jason is a big boy and nobody really keeps tabs on who comes into the clubhouse and it's not like they clock in and out either. After getting Billy's bike back in "Clean and Serene" you can trigger the conversation with Johnny and Jason and Johnny says that he hasn't seen Jason in a while meaning that he can often be off doing his own thing while still being part of the brotherhood. I figure that each member of The Lost have their own errands to run and are not in the clubhouse 24/7 so they would probably assume the same for Jason until his body is found in the park and then Billy gets word of it which can be a few days later but under a week for sure.

The whole "Hung Out to Dry" and "Bull in a China Shop" is no biggie either. The lists are really for people who just want to play it in order of chronology who haven't gotten to figuring out themselves, are too busy or aren't hardcore and passionate fans like us. For those to who want that sense of realism will probably do it at their own pace like you and me for instance because I am likely to take a few days doing some procedural stuff before going back.

As for "Departure Time", I certainly can't doubt you guys but you need to point out to me where exactly and who exactly states that Dimitri is dead... I've played the mission three times and I haven't heard it once. The reason I put it before Niko's final mission is because I thought there should be time from when the bum finds the diamonds to when it pops up on the internet. But if what you guys say is true then it would have to be the final mission.

"Call and Collect" to "I Luv LC" is ready to go but I don't want this post to go too long so I'll wait for my next post.

wryan10
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#212

Posted 04 December 2009 - 07:46 PM

With Departure Time, Timur states Dimitri is dead in the cutscene just as you arrive at the carnival. Magic Al, I could see the order of the last two missions changing depending on whether you do deal or revenge, but I agree with TheGreyGhost that it seems like Rockstar made sure that either choice(deal or revenge) is a valid one.

MOB, I knew you'd never go for the new order with Jason because you don't like doing two dlc missions in a row without breaking them up with Niko missions.

Versityle, no biggie, it's one of those personal preference things I guess. I figure it's good that people know it's possible to do if they feel the same way as me.





MitchJ90
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#213

Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:36 PM

Can someone explain to me why date is done before Bleed out, Niko wouldn't let Roman be beaten up seeing as Niko hears Roman begging them to leave him alone.

Also can someone tell me when you can do the Random characters for the DLC's, its not on the site. I need them for my playthrough.

shinsta312
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#214

Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (MitchJ90 @ Dec 4 2009, 14:36)
Can someone explain to me why date is done before Bleed out, Niko wouldn't let Roman be beaten up seeing as Niko hears Roman begging them to leave him alone.

Hey, it's a Player's Choice.

I always choose First Date before Bleed Out, mainly because of the hilarious conversation that Niko has with Roman after completing First Date.

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#215

Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:47 PM

Thats obvious but I want to know WHY he chose that. Hilrious or not it doesn't make much sense.

Jargner
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#216

Posted 04 December 2009 - 11:26 PM Edited by Jargner, 04 December 2009 - 11:30 PM.

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Dec 4 2009, 14:55)

That's not tue... you can do No Love Lost regardless of wether you've done logging on or not.

I meant that you have to complete No Love Lost before Rigged to Blow. Any luck with finding your strategy guide, shinsta?

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#217

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:11 AM

QUOTE (Jargner @ Dec 4 2009, 23:26)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Dec 4 2009, 14:55)

That's not tue... you can do No Love Lost regardless of wether you've done logging on or not.

I meant that you have to complete No Love Lost before Rigged to Blow. Any luck with finding your strategy guide, shinsta?

All I remember was that I was told that the order I had the missions in was wrong when it wasn't.

Jargner
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#218

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:12 AM

Well.... you're sure that you don't have to complete No Love Lost in order to gain access to Rigged to Blow? I'm not entirely sure myself.

shinsta312
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#219

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Jargner @ Dec 4 2009, 17:26)
Any luck with finding your strategy guide, shinsta?

No luck, so far. yawn.gif

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#220

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Jargner @ Dec 5 2009, 00:12)
Well.... you're sure that you don't have to complete No Love Lost in order to gain access to Rigged to Blow? I'm not entirely sure myself.

Of course you do. The "Problem" was with Logging On though not No Love Lost or Rigged To Blow.

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#221

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:22 AM

QUOTE (MitchJ90 @ Dec 4 2009, 21:47)
Thats obvious but I want to know WHY he chose that. Hilrious or not it doesn't make much sense.

To me, it's a player choice but by that point, Niko is already sick of running around after Roman, something along the lines of "Ever since I've been back here it seems I've been cleaning up your mess" is what Niko says to Roman in the mission before, so to me, it would make sense that Niko would chose to kick back and ignore Roman for once as he believed it wasn't life threatening. Plus the way that mission comes back and THEN forces you to do it not long after with an alternative Phone Call in which Niko gets extra dialogue.

Jargner
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#222

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:23 AM

? Here's my post. "There's a problem with your list, MOB. You have Rigged to Blow placed before Logging On, but you can't gain access to Rigged to Blow until you complete Logging On." I had stated that the list had a mistake because Rigged to Blow was placed before Logging On; but in order to gain access to Rigged to Blow, you must complete both Logging On and No Love Lost.

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#223

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:28 AM

QUOTE (Jargner @ Dec 5 2009, 00:23)
? Here's my post. "There's a problem with your list, MOB. You have Rigged to Blow placed before Logging On, but you can't gain access to Rigged to Blow until you complete Logging On." I had stated that the list had a mistake because Rigged to Blow was placed before Logging On; but in order to gain access to Rigged to Blow, you must complete both Logging On and No Love Lost.

It's really of little Importance man... It was just a passing comment.

Jargner
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#224

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:30 AM

... Passing comment as in... I was correct? Eh, I'm just trying to prove I was correct. tounge.gif You came off as a bit accusing.

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#225

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:40 AM

QUOTE (Jargner @ Dec 5 2009, 00:30)
... Passing comment as in... I was correct? Eh, I'm just trying to prove I was correct. tounge.gif You came off as a bit accusing.

I never said you were wrong... Check the posts man and this is really counter productive. So maybe you should drop it eh?

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#226

Posted 05 December 2009 - 12:50 AM Edited by Jargner, 05 December 2009 - 12:53 AM.

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Nov 30 2009, 00:33)
While we're on the topic of listening to other people... A few pages back somebody told me that there was a "mistake" in my list becausae I had Logging On after Final Destination as they said it wasn't unlocked until after No Love Lost. I've only just realised that I was actually right, Logging On is in fact unlocked by completing Final Destination and not No Love Lost. I'm not going to change my list but I just thought I should bring it to people's attention... Magic Al in particular since I think the mistake is in his mission tree also.

..................... Well, I'm certainly hoping that when you had stated that, you were referring to someone else. Even then, I'm going to have to wonder why you didn't state you weren't referring to me. :|

EDIT: Anyways, yes, I'm going to drop it. I'm feeling vaguely annoyed. If I find any more problems during my playthrough, I'll report them.

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#227

Posted 05 December 2009 - 01:09 AM

QUOTE (Jargner @ Dec 5 2009, 00:50)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Nov 30 2009, 00:33)
While we're on the topic of listening to other people... A few pages back somebody told me that there was a "mistake" in my list becausae I had Logging On after Final Destination as they said it wasn't unlocked until after No Love Lost. I've only just realised that I was actually right, Logging On is in fact unlocked by completing Final Destination and not No Love Lost. I'm not going to change my list but I just thought I should bring it to people's attention... Magic Al in particular since I think the mistake is in his mission tree also.

..................... Well, I'm certainly hoping that when you had stated that, you were referring to someone else. Even then, I'm going to have to wonder why you didn't state you weren't referring to me. :|

EDIT: Anyways, yes, I'm going to drop it. I'm feeling vaguely annoyed. If I find any more problems during my playthrough, I'll report them.

I wasn't refering to you because you didn't say that Logging On was unlocked by completing No Love Lost. Maybe nobody did I dunno.. the list has been changed so many times now it's hard to remember. If you do have any contributions to make please let me know. I hope to god there isn't any more problems though.

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#228

Posted 05 December 2009 - 05:07 AM

Alright, I found my freakin' guide, so here we go. Here are the mission prerequisites, according to the BradyGames Strategy Guide.

As a way to save up space, I'll only be posting the missions that I think are important in terms of structuring.

(Roman) Uncle Vlad
  • (Little Jacob) Jamaican Heat
  • (Vlad) Ivan the Not So Terrible
(Little Jacob) Shadow
  • (Little Jacob) Jamaican Heat
  • (Faustin) Do You Have Protection?
(Roman) Logging On
  • (Faustin) Final Destination
(Faustin) Rigged to Blow
  • (Roman) Logging On
  • (Faustin) No Love Lost
(Dimitri) Russian Revolution
  • (Dimitri) The Master and the Molotov
  • (Little Jacob) Shadow
(Brucie) Search and Delete
  • (Roman) Logging On
  • (Faustin) Rigged to Blow
(Brucie) Out of the Closet: Part 1
  • (Brucie) Easy As Can Be
  • (Roman) Roman's Sorrow
(U.L. Paper) Wrong is Right
  • (Elizabeta) The Snow Storm
  • (Playboy X) Photo Shoot
(Roman) Hostile Negotiation
  • (Roman) Roman's Sorrow
  • (Elizabeta) Have a Heart
  • (Playboy X) Photo Shoot
(Packie) Harboring a Grudge
  • (Francis) Call and Collect
  • (Elizabeta) Have a Heart
(Ray) A Long Way to Fall
  • (Packie) Waste Not Want Knots
(Ray) Taking In the Trash
  • (Ray) A Long Way to Fall
  • (Packie) Three Leaf Clover
(Ray) Weekend at Florian's
  • (Roman) Hostile Negotiation
  • (Ray) No Way on the Subway
(Derrick) Smackdown
  • (Packie) Three Leaf Clover
  • (Gerry) Actions Speak Louder Than Words
(Francis) Blood Brothers
  • (Francis) Lure
  • (Derrick) Tunnel of Death
  • (Gerry) I Need Your Clothes, Your Boots, and Your Motorcycle
(Phil) Truck Hustle
  • (Ray) Late Checkout
(Pegorino) Pest Control
  • (Pegorino) Flatline
  • (Phil) To Live or Die in Alderney
(Gravelli) Entourage
  • (Pegorino) Payback
  • (Ray) Weekend at Florian's
(U.L. Paper) That Special Someone
  • (Ray) Weekend at Florian's
  • (Pegorino) Pest Control
  • (Gravelli) Liquidize the Assets

Versityle
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#229

Posted 05 December 2009 - 04:48 PM

I hate to say this after all the trouble you went through Shinsta but I have the BradyGames guide too and they're not always accurate or they usually leave a prerequisite out. For example they don't tell you that Late Checkout is a prerequisite to Ransom because I think they just assume you've done it already because it's a few pages back. But I guess it's good to have a layout for what they have so good job anyways. icon14.gif

Alright, here's my continuation of the day/time missions:

Call and Collect: Morning or Afternoon
I think this mission works best during the day when the Sun is bright as Francis could be enjoying the breeze and fresh air and the guy trying to blackmail him probably would schedule a meeting during the day. It could also happen on any day of the week because we don't really know whether or not Francis is off the clock or not.

Have a Heart: Night
I'm sure street doctors like to be discrete and secretive and not collect body parts during the day. I don't know how many people would prefer destroying the car and not get paid so I'm going to assume anyone doing this mission will make it to the doctor.

Harboring a Grudge: Weekday, Afternoon
I feel that Kate, Ma, and Packie would just be chilling in the day during the week since none of them works a day job. Plus the shipments as a front would likely operate during the day as well.

No. 1: Friday or Weekend Evening
I always felt this worked on a weekend just because I think a street race would be schedule when there's no rush hour. Plus at night is when illegal races tend to take place anyway.

Waste Not Want Knots: Afternoon/Evening
I'd say trigger the mission in the afternoon, and by the time you make it to the warehouse it would be sundown just when the Ancelotti's could be wrapping up their shift.

A Long Way to Fall: Working Hours
We know that Drustilla's never has customers but that doesn't mean it's not open to the public. Ray would likely be sitting in on any day of the week plus I can imagine Teddy and his buddies just chilling in their apartment during the day as well.

Three Leaf Clover/ I Luv LC: Midday
You'll have to trigger TLC in the late morning because you need the robbery to take place during the mid-late afternoon. In I Luv LC we don't know exactly what time it takes place because when you finally have control of Luis it's already night time. It's safe to assume that it was around 3-5 o'clock so by the time Tony finishes his ranting and Rocco collects the money time has passed. I'm sure it can happen on any day of the week because Ma and Kate aren't home so they could be out shopping or something and banks and clubs are open everyday.

The only problem is setting up the days to match, I don't know if anyone has any suggestions otherwise we'll have to live with that minor plot-hole.

Expect "Momma's Boy" to "This Sh*t's Cursed" next...

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#230

Posted 05 December 2009 - 07:04 PM

Shinsta, my mission tree is based on both strategy guides, the IV mission tree from GTA Wiki, and a lot of subsequent corrections because the guides omit a lot. I think this is the best reference there is now, but there could still be errors and I welcome corrections.

GTA IV-EFLC Integrated Mission Tree (PDF)


Solid lines indicate actual gameplay prerequisites (to start any mission all the missions linked before it with solid lines must be completed). Broken lines are used mostly to link the three stories together.

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#231

Posted 05 December 2009 - 07:30 PM

Great Work icon14.gif

Except:
"Boulevard Baby" isn't a requirement for "...Blog This!"
I've got a save titled "...Blog This!" where the next available mission is "Boulevard Baby".
I would guess that the phonecall for "...Blog This!" is timed in relation to the completion of "Blog This!..."

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#232

Posted 05 December 2009 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (GTA Phreak @ Dec 5 2009, 13:30)
Great Work icon14.gif

Except:
"Boulevard Baby" isn't a requirement for "...Blog This!"
I've got a save titled "...Blog This!" where the next available mission is "Boulevard Baby".
I would guess that the phonecall for "...Blog This!" is timed in relation to the completion of "Blog This!..."

This has been a difficult section for me to sort out. I had several saves going trying approach this question. I know it's not a just timer because you must complete High Dive (unlocks parachutes) before you can do ...Blog This!, but you can do Blog This!... before High Dive.

Based on what you say, I think the change I have to make is to have Boulevard Baby as a prerequisite of Not So Fast, but not of ...Blog This! I'll leave Frosting on the Cake as a prerequisite to ...Blog This! I was never able to get ...Blog This! to happen before that. If anyone has, please speak up.

Mission Tree Updated

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#233

Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:16 PM

QUOTE (Ash_735 @ Dec 5 2009, 00:22)
QUOTE (MitchJ90 @ Dec 4 2009, 21:47)
Thats obvious but I want to know WHY he chose that. Hilrious or not it doesn't  make much sense.

To me, it's a player choice but by that point, Niko is already sick of running around after Roman, something along the lines of "Ever since I've been back here it seems I've been cleaning up your mess" is what Niko says to Roman in the mission before, so to me, it would make sense that Niko would chose to kick back and ignore Roman for once as he believed it wasn't life threatening. Plus the way that mission comes back and THEN forces you to do it not long after with an alternative Phone Call in which Niko gets extra dialogue.

I'm sorry but it makes NO sence. Before that they had shot at them, tried to stab both and now had even more reason to kill him. Do you really think Niko would go on a date he wasnt too fussed about after hearing his cousin begging the guys? The extra diaologue doesnt matter either seeing as you get some with Michelle to or at least some that make sense. What do think MOB?

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#234

Posted 06 December 2009 - 01:18 PM

QUOTE (MitchJ90 @ Dec 6 2009, 12:16)
QUOTE (Ash_735 @ Dec 5 2009, 00:22)
QUOTE (MitchJ90 @ Dec 4 2009, 21:47)
Thats obvious but I want to know WHY he chose that. Hilrious or not it doesn't  make much sense.

To me, it's a player choice but by that point, Niko is already sick of running around after Roman, something along the lines of "Ever since I've been back here it seems I've been cleaning up your mess" is what Niko says to Roman in the mission before, so to me, it would make sense that Niko would chose to kick back and ignore Roman for once as he believed it wasn't life threatening. Plus the way that mission comes back and THEN forces you to do it not long after with an alternative Phone Call in which Niko gets extra dialogue.

I'm sorry but it makes NO sence. Before that they had shot at them, tried to stab both and now had even more reason to kill him. Do you really think Niko would go on a date he wasnt too fussed about after hearing his cousin begging the guys? The extra diaologue doesnt matter either seeing as you get some with Michelle to or at least some that make sense. What do think MOB?

I agree with what Ash said.. If you want to do Bleed Out before First Date then by all means go ahead I just think he would dio it the other way around. It really is the player's choice at the end of the day much the same as the in game moral choices.. To me helping Roman at that point is the same as Killing or not Killing Darko etc.

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#235

Posted 06 December 2009 - 03:48 PM

You think he would let his cousin be possibillykilled? They tried maybe twice before.

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#236

Posted 06 December 2009 - 06:09 PM

Mitch, it's not like this is official in any way. Just let it go.

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#237

Posted 06 December 2009 - 06:22 PM

Bleed Out should definitely be before First Date, the game tells you to go rescue Roman when you are driving towards Michelle's house (about halfway there you get the call). If you're just standing outside of your safehouse, or driving somewhere random like at the beach, you won't get the call. This means that its fixed so that you are supposed to save Roman before First Date. Of course there are obvious work-around like failing the mission, but you generally do Bleed Out first.

Also, one time I did First Date first and after Roman called me a second time I did the mission, but after I finished it it said in my stats 'mission replays: 1'. I never use mission replays, but whats even more odd is that I still had 'Mission Failures: 0'. notify.gif

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#238

Posted 06 December 2009 - 07:19 PM

QUOTE (TheGreyGhost @ Dec 6 2009, 18:09)
Mitch, it's not like this is official in any way. Just let it go.

lol They have now moved onto time of day, I don't think my thing is anything to "drop". Bt it has me wondering how reliable the list is if something so obvious and set can be so wrong. Disappointing to be honest.

Anyway I am going to try and start the list tomorrow but I need to know when can I do the random missions for TLAD and TBoGT, can't start without them and I have a free week tomorow so it willl need to be then, so any help would be great.

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#239

Posted 06 December 2009 - 10:20 PM

QUOTE (MitchJ90 @ Dec 6 2009, 15:48)
You think he would let his cousin be possibillykilled? They tried maybe twice before.

If you just cancel the call Niko doesn't know what it's about until he picks Roman up from hospital. Anyway I've given my reasons for the order in which I put the two missions already.. To me it makes 100% sence and thats it. If you don't agree just do Bleed out First... It's no biggie

TheGreyGhost
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#240

Posted 06 December 2009 - 10:21 PM

QUOTE (MitchJ90 @ Dec 6 2009, 19:19)
lol They have now moved onto time of day, I don't think my thing is anything to "drop". Bt it has me wondering how reliable the list is if something so obvious and set can be so wrong. Disappointing to be honest.

Anyway I am going to try and start the list tomorrow but I need to know when can I do the random missions for TLAD and TBoGT, can't start without them and I have a free week tomorow so it willl need to be then, so any help would be great.

Join the club, then. I feel that It's War would never take place that long after Angels in America, but the group feels it should. Everyone is going to have a few problems with peoples opinons. If you don't like it, make your own version of the list. Like I said, none of this is official in anyway.




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