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The Possible Trinity

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Money Over Bullshit
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#181

Posted 29 November 2009 - 04:35 PM

QUOTE (Versityle @ Nov 29 2009, 16:11)
QUOTE (wryan10 @ Nov 29 2009, 01:33)
Hey MOB,

I'm going to start a new playthrough soon with all the changes.  I was thinking, and this might be a little too much, but how about adding day and night where it applies on every mission?  For instance, some of Vlad's missions seem to take place when the bar is open and some when it's closed or atleast almost empty.  Some refer to it being day in the cutscenes, like the jacob mission where he's waking up and saying he had a long night.  Going to the cabaret club for the mission where dimitri walks around talking to everybody during the show makes no sense if you go before 21:00 when the club actually opens.  It's a small detail, and might be a pain in the ass to keep track of, but I really think it goes a long way towards immersing you in the story as you're playing you know?(night would be anytime after 21:00 like in bogt...i noticed most of the nightlife opens up then ,even in vanilla)

...just a thought...

i plan on starting your playthrough once more and trying versityle's after that

Yeah man, that would be cool, I always try to play missions on a more believable time... the only problem is that the game clock moves much faster than real time so say you're doing a Ballad mission at night and by the time you finish it might be sunrise. Depending on the mission it might ruin the whole "realism vibe".

But I like the idea for sure, I made a thread about a while ago you can see here if you'd like.
http://www.gtaforums...31&hl=Versityle

EDIT: Hey MOB, if you'd like I can maybe work up a list of when I think timings suit best because I know you say you're busy a lot and I don't mind the challenge.

I knew somebody had made a topic about that I just wasn't sure who. I suppose you could do it but then I wouldn't get to take all the credit. lol Jk colgate.gif Yeah That'd be great if you could do that man man.. It would save me quite a bit of time although I'm planning on adding in gameplay hints aswell. Hmm I guess you should still do it though as I'll need somebody to compare notes with and you'll know the game back to front by then I'm sure. So Yeah go 4 it man icon14.gif

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#182

Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:28 PM

QUOTE (Versityle @ Nov 29 2009, 16:11)
QUOTE (wryan10 @ Nov 29 2009, 01:33)
Hey MOB,


Yeah man, that would be cool, I always try to play missions on a more believable time... the only problem is that the game clock moves much faster than real time so say you're doing a Ballad mission at night and by the time you finish it might be sunrise. Depending on the mission it might ruin the whole "realism vibe".

But I like the idea for sure, I made a thread about a while ago you can see here if you'd like.
http://www.gtaforums...31&hl=Versityle

EDIT: Hey MOB, if you'd like I can maybe work up a list of when I think timings suit best because I know you say you're busy a lot and I don't mind the challengeI

cool. good to know i'm not the only only one who thinks this way. thanks versityle!

Versityle
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#183

Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:52 PM

Before I get to the day/time list, i figure I would have to run it by you guys and explain certain missions in detail of why I would think it would take place on a certain time or day.

I'm thinking the whole Frosting on the Cake/Diamond's in the Rough arc might take place on either a Monday or Thursday evening, that way Niko's Taking in the Trash would take place early morning on either Tuesday or Friday when it is garbage day in Liberty City.

However, I'm not sure if Ray would set up an off day for the pick up so that he can get to the diamonds first before any other trucks, but maybe he had already set up that specific route so that a garbage truck on an off day doesn't seem to suspicious.

Whatever, I'll see what I can do. I'm also thinking, and it may not matter too much, to include what Niko and Luis should wear during certain missions. Many missions I know it probably wouldn't matter so I wouldn't specify but others might be appropriate. Like maybe at any time Niko visits either Pegorino, Phil, or Gravelli he's dressed up semi-formal. Or when Luis meets Tony at his clubs he should wear his club suit.

We don't have to include that if it's too minor a thing and forgive me for my need for realism, I've always been quite anal about realism in movies, shows and games it's just who I am.

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#184

Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:10 PM

QUOTE (Versityle @ Nov 29 2009, 18:52)
Before I get to the day/time list, i figure I would have to run it by you guys and explain certain missions in detail of why I would think it would take place on a certain time or day.

I'm thinking the whole Frosting on the Cake/Diamond's in the Rough arc might take place on either a Monday or Thursday evening, that way Niko's Taking in the Trash would take place early morning on either Tuesday or Friday when it is garbage day in Liberty City.

However, I'm not sure if Ray would set up an off day for the pick up so that he can get to the diamonds first before any other trucks, but maybe he had already set up that specific route so that a garbage truck on an off day doesn't seem to suspicious.

Whatever, I'll see what I can do. I'm also thinking, and it may not matter too much, to include what Niko and Luis should wear during certain missions. Many missions I know it probably wouldn't matter so I wouldn't specify but others might be appropriate. Like maybe at any time Niko visits either Pegorino, Phil, or Gravelli he's dressed up semi-formal. Or when Luis meets Tony at his clubs he should wear his club suit.

We don't have to include that if it's too minor a thing and forgive me for my need for realism, I've always been quite anal about realism in movies, shows and games it's just who I am.

I'm the same way, so no worries.

For Frosting/Diamonds, the more I think about it the more monday/thursday makes alot of sense. However, maybe different parts of Liberty City get picked up on different days.(i.e. Broker and north alderney get picked up on monday, maybe south alogonquin and bohan are tues...etc.) I guess what I'm saying is that whatever day you pick you'd probably be alright(unless their really is a set garbage day in LC then disregard)

Including clothing suggestions is a cool idea.(although with niko i tend to use the default as much as possible) I have to admit i already do this with luis(suits when he goes to the club, hang out/default clothes otherwise). The only thing I do a bit differently is I try to have Luis wear the defaults when on crossover missions(same with niko). The re-skins take you out of the moment enough, but i try my best to replicate them as best I can on all three playthroughs...

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#185

Posted 29 November 2009 - 09:58 PM Edited by Versityle, 29 November 2009 - 11:11 PM.

QUOTE (wryan10 @ Nov 29 2009, 20:10)
QUOTE (Versityle @ Nov 29 2009, 18:52)
Before I get to the day/time list, i figure I would have to run it by you guys and explain certain missions in detail of why I would think it would take place on a certain time or day.

I'm thinking the whole Frosting on the Cake/Diamond's in the Rough arc might take place on either a Monday or Thursday evening, that way Niko's Taking in the Trash would take place early morning on either Tuesday or Friday when it is garbage day in Liberty City.

However, I'm not sure if Ray would set up an off day for the pick up so that he can get to the diamonds first before any other trucks, but maybe he had already set up that specific route so that a garbage truck on an off day doesn't seem to suspicious.

Whatever, I'll see what I can do. I'm also thinking, and it may not matter too much, to include what Niko and Luis should wear during certain missions. Many missions I know it probably wouldn't matter so I wouldn't specify but others might be appropriate. Like maybe at any time Niko visits either Pegorino, Phil, or Gravelli he's dressed up semi-formal. Or when Luis meets Tony at his clubs he should wear his club suit.

We don't have to include that if it's too minor a thing and forgive me for my need for realism, I've always been quite anal about realism in movies, shows and games it's just who I am.

I'm the same way, so no worries.

For Frosting/Diamonds, the more I think about it the more monday/thursday makes alot of sense. However, maybe different parts of Liberty City get picked up on different days.(i.e. Broker and north alderney get picked up on monday, maybe south alogonquin and bohan are tues...etc.) I guess what I'm saying is that whatever day you pick you'd probably be alright(unless their really is a set garbage day in LC then disregard)

Including clothing suggestions is a cool idea.(although with niko i tend to use the default as much as possible) I have to admit i already do this with luis(suits when he goes to the club, hang out/default clothes otherwise). The only thing I do a bit differently is I try to have Luis wear the defaults when on crossover missions(same with niko). The re-skins take you out of the moment enough, but i try my best to replicate them as best I can on all three playthroughs...

Yeah obviously with the crossovers you want to wear the default clothes and like I said it may not matter too much but could be a side note to consider. As for the garbage day I think it is only Tuesday's and Fridays... whenever I see a garbage truck wherever I may be I check the time on the phone and it's always either two of those days. Anyway here's what I got from The Cousin's Bellic to Uncle Vlad...

The Cousins Bellic: Dawn, Weekday
Starts at dawn of course whatever day the game chooses. Although I would hope it would happen on a weekday as Roman needs to head off to work. Let's assume Roman works the day shifts and has the weekends off.

It's Your Call: Morning or Noon, Weekday
At the end of The Cousins Bellic, Roman tells Niko where to meet him and I'd assume he'd meet him before the shift is over which would be around Morning or maybe noon because Roman can be on lunch break or something when he goes to gamble.

Three's A Crowd: Mid to Late Afternoon, Weekday
Basically all of Roman's missions in the first arc would have to take place on a weekday assuming he works a regular 9-5ish shift. When he asks Niko to pick up Malorie and her friend it seems to be that maybe the two girls spent the day together before going back to Michelle's.

Bleed Out/First Date: Weekday Evening or Weekend Day or Evening
If you're planning to do Bleed Out before First Date then you'd want to plan doing this mission at the time you'd plan on seeing Michelle. After completing Bleed Out you can do First Date on the same time frame on another day. If you do First Date first then Michelle would likely see and go to the carnival/bowling with you on either the weekend or weekday evenings assuming she's trying to pass herself off as a working woman. Then Bleed Out can be done on whatever day at whatever time but preferably not at midnight because the loan sharks are probably doing a daily routine as they harass Roman.

Easy Fare: Working Hours, Weekday
Straight forward, Roman's working and gets Niko to cover a fare.

Bull in a China Shop: 11ish PM, Weeknight
Like wryan stated earlier, Vlad can be chilling at the bar at night with his friends, plus the shop owner seems to be closed so I'm assuming that's past 10 during closing hours and weeknight of course.

Hung Out to Dry: Evening
I would assume that Vlad is just sitting down at the bar just as the sun goes down while the man decides to do his laundry before sunset and it can be a weekday or weekend. I know I can't vouch for these characters but it's easier to run with just one assumption. If not afternoon might work.

Jamaican Heat: Working Hours, Weekday
Again, Roman's working while Jacob works his "day job" as well.

Concrete Jungle Noon
Little Jacob seems like the type to nap and sleep past noon. My guess is Niko comes by at a reasonable hour but Jacobs asleep. It can happen any day of the week.

Clean Getaway: Afternoon
Also any day of the week. I can't really explain but it just seems like an afternoon mission. Vlad's hanging out at the bar before it's busy hours and takes a walk and the guy you steal the car from would seem to be working on his car during the course of the day as well.

Ivan the Not so Terrible: Evening, Weekday
Once again, Vlad will be sitting down for his drink and would probably prompt Ivan to steal from Roman after his shift when he can't defend himself.

Uncle Vlad: Evening, Weekday
Judging by the credits of TLAD this mission seems to take place at sunset. Makes sense too because my guess is Roman is done his shift and is drinking in sorrow before he clocks out to confront Vlad with Niko.

Before I get to Crime and Punishment, can someone tell me whether or not time passes between when Roman's in the dumpster to when they're tied up in the basement. That way I'd be able to establish what time you go to the dumpster and when the vans would be making they're deliveries.

Anyway, if anyone has any other suggestions or concerns to the other missions above please let me know.

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#186

Posted 29 November 2009 - 10:17 PM

So far I've gotten as far as Shadow ready to start up again at clean and serene in TLAD and I must say, the notes I have match yours almost exactly.

To answer your question, yes some time does pass between when Roman is in the dumpster and when Niko gets out of the basement. I would suggest starting that mission in the early afternnon as Roman says that people were following him which would suggest that he worked for a few hours (likely til lunch) and then got freaked out and hid in the dumpster.

After that mission I took Michelle to dinner and then went to bed before knocking on Faustin's door bright and early the next morning..just to piss him off colgate.gif .

As regards to Bleed Out/First Date I think Niko would have ignored Roman and gone on the date... Which I think most people chose to do when they first played the game. It also makes the story better because Roman gets beaten up because of the choice you make which presumably would make you want to be good to him and save his ass from then on.

Versityle
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#187

Posted 29 November 2009 - 11:27 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Nov 29 2009, 22:17)
So far I've gotten as far as Shadow ready to start up again at clean and serene in TLAD and I must say, the notes I have match yours almost exactly.

To answer your question, yes some time does pass between when Roman is in the dumpster and when Niko gets out of the basement. I would suggest starting that mission in the early afternnon as Roman says that people were following him which would suggest that he worked for a few hours (likely til lunch) and then got freaked out and hid in the dumpster.

After that mission I took Michelle to dinner and then went to bed before knocking on Faustin's door bright and early the next morning..just to piss him off colgate.gif .

As regards to Bleed Out/First Date I think Niko would have ignored Roman and gone on the date... Which I think most people chose to do when they first played the game. It also makes the story better because Roman gets beaten up because of the choice you make which presumably would make you want to be good to him and save his ass from then on.

I can see the dumpster scene taking place in the afternoon for sure. But depending on how much time is passed by, Faustin says that his wife is watching television. I'm guessing it's either talk show/soap opera during the day or prime time at night. Maybe news hour, you never know. I guess the vans could be delivering at night, as they are crooks so that might work.

I see your point about Bleed Out/First Date. I always figured Niko might rush to his cousin's aide and is probably just a tad nervous about his date with Michelle. But I could get on board with the fact that Niko's had it with his cousin's bullsh*t and figures he's just bluffing on the phone and therefore can proceed with his date with Michelle. And like you said it would be plausible to think that Niko from then on would try to protect his cousin after seeing how serious things can get with him and loan collectors plus I believe it opens up more dialogue in the story's arc so I might consider switching those two around. Thanks icon14.gif

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#188

Posted 29 November 2009 - 11:33 PM

QUOTE (Versityle @ Nov 29 2009, 23:27)
I see your point about Bleed Out/First Date. I always figured Niko might rush to his cousin's aide and is probably just a tad nervous about his date with Michelle. But I could get on board with the fact that Niko's had it with his cousin's bullsh*t and figures he's just bluffing on the phone and therefore can proceed with his date with Michelle. And like you said it would be plausible to think that Niko from then on would try to protect his cousin after seeing how serious things can get with him and loan collectors plus I believe it opens up more dialogue in the story's arc so I might consider switching those two around. Thanks icon14.gif

That's how I've always played it out in my head, so I'm biased towards that way of thinking.

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#189

Posted 30 November 2009 - 12:33 AM

No problem. That's what I mean about running things by each other.

While we're on the topic of listening to other people... A few pages back somebody told me that there was a "mistake" in my list becausae I had Logging On after Final Destination as they said it wasn't unlocked until after No Love Lost. I've only just realised that I was actually right, Logging On is in fact unlocked by completing Final Destination and not No Love Lost. I'm not going to change my list but I just thought I should bring it to people's attention... Magic Al in particular since I think the mistake is in his mission tree also.

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#190

Posted 30 November 2009 - 12:43 AM

I really like that we are moving onto what time of day missions should take place and such, as I was doing this on my own timeline way back when you guys started this on TLAD. (back when I was trying to come up with a complete timeline, including side missions and such)

I'm making a few revisions to my "complete" timeline (mostly to include Ballad of Gay Tony side missions that I never included just because of all the problems we had with the main missions) and hope to get it posted for peoples opinions shortly.

Haha, I should be working on a huge project right now...but meh...I'd rather do this.

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#191

Posted 30 November 2009 - 01:43 AM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Nov 29 2009, 18:33)
Magic Al in particular since I think the mistake is in his mission tree also.

Nope. If it ever did have that mistake I fixed it sometime before the current version.

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#192

Posted 30 November 2009 - 08:19 AM

versityle,

Sunset seems like a great time to do Uncle Vlad, but I just wanted to ask about the TLAD credits. I went back and re-watched them on youtube and it seems like every mission they show is at/around sunset. I always assumed they just picked a time of day and used it throughout the credit sequence as opposed to them being a reliable guide to what time of day a mission takes place. I could be wrong, and Uncle Vlad seems to work great at that time, I guess I just want to bring this up to see whether the credits can be used as a reliable marker for mission times later in the game...

sorry if i'm being too anal here...


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#193

Posted 30 November 2009 - 05:05 PM Edited by Versityle, 30 November 2009 - 05:09 PM.

QUOTE (wryan10 @ Nov 30 2009, 08:19)
versityle,

Sunset seems like a great time to do Uncle Vlad, but I just wanted to ask about the TLAD credits.  I went back and re-watched them on youtube and it seems like every mission they show is at/around sunset.  I always assumed they just picked a time of day and used it throughout the credit sequence as opposed to them being a reliable guide to what time of day a mission takes place.  I could be wrong, and Uncle Vlad seems to work great at that time, I guess I just want to bring this up to see whether the credits can be used as a reliable marker for mission times later in the game...

sorry if i'm being too anal here...

Yeah you're right man, it seems they do all take place at sundown. However, like I said with Uncle Vlad, Roman seems to have just ended his shift while Vlad has his usual sit-down with a couple of men at Comrads whom I'm assuming go there at night whereas Vlad seems to hangout there all day. So therefore I think it would be fitting at sundown either way but from here on I guess we don't use the credits as a reliable source.

Here's Crime and Punishment to It's War:

Crime and Punishment: Late-Afternoon
This could likely take place a day after Uncle Vlad. Like MOB stated earlier, Roman could have been followed from work, maybe perhaps after his shift was done and he was on his way home. By the time you end up in the basement it should be night time just before midnight so Ilyena would be watching perhaps some prime time television while Faustin and Dimitri hang out after the day is done. The vans could be operating at night as well to avoid suspicion I suppose.

Do You Have Protection? Morning to Early Afternoon
This could easily take place weekday or weekend. Faustin and Dimitri would have their little squabble while the guys at the porn shop just lay back and enjoy some nice "titties" as Roman puts it. Just feels like a sort of "just another day in Liberty City" kind of mission.

Shadow: Noon
This has that sort of same feeling as Do You Have Protection. Little Jacob and Badman just lazifying about as Niko takes a casual visit, therefore probably works best during the day weekday or weekend.

Final Destination: Evening
Seeing how Faustin's at the club, many would probably assume this takes place in the evening, probably when the club is most busy which it seems to be. Plus it doesn't contrast the Petrovic being at the train station at night either so it probably works either weekday or weekend.

Clean and Serene: Early Morning
I guess it doesn't matter what day this takes place on and it's already set for morning so no biggie. Although maybe try to set it up a day before you do your next mission. It would probably be hard to line it up with Final Destination. So if you were to do C&S on a Wed. then do your next Niko mission on a Thurs.

Logging On: Weekday, Late Afternoon/Early Evening
Romans at work as usual but he's leaving to go out with Brucie so again maybe his shift is done or he was working a few extra hours while Brucie waits around.

Liberty City Choppers: Evening/Night
I would just think with the amount of gunfire at the parking lot without cops coming to bother you, Johnny and Jim would probably have an easier time with it at night time while the bent cops spot out the Angels of Death.

Angels in America/ No Love Lost: Late Morning /Mid-Noon
I think this works well in the day even though there's a massive amount of gunfire on quite a large percentage of the city. Thing is there's a lot of bikers for them to track down. Plus I can see Billy chilling out during the day while the AOD visit him and crash his party. Plus, if Jason decides to leave for the pier around noonish then that would give Niko time to visit Faustin around mid-noon and chase down Jason around late afternoon which would give Jason enough time to head from North Holland to Firefly Island. I think it's obvious that these two missions should take place on the same day but slightly different times.

Rigged to Blow: Weekday, Afternoon
I think this works best on a weekday as Ilyena would be up about in her house like a standard housewife and our victim would be working his garage before Niko blows it up.

Bad Cop Drop: Evening or Night
I would think this is best suited at night, and maybe triggered when the Sun is still up. There's a lot of gunfire and it's a very intense mission and perhaps Jim could have been paranoid about the cops all day before finally meeting up with Johnny and doing something about it.

The Master and the Molotov: Evening
Faustin again would likely be visiting his club at night, and when you see the news story on it in the Liberty Tree, it's a night time shot. You can perhaps trigger the sit-down with Dimitri just before the sun goes down as he says Faustin will be heading to the club in 3 hours.

Russian Revolution: Evening/Night
Honestly this mission can be done anytime on any day, however, I think it works best at sundown (seems to be theme). Mainly because it's a lead up to Roman's Sorrow which would likely take place the following midnight or next morning because I don't think either Niko or Roman would waste too much time. Thus, maybe set it up from either Sunday to Thursday because Roman's Sorrow would work best on a Weekday...

Roman's Sorrow: Weekday, Early Morning
I say early morning because Roman and Niko likely would have not slept plus Roman would take some time to drive off and hide out in the alleyway. Plus by the time you'd arrive at the new safe-house Malorie says she has to go to work so it could very well be a morning shift while Niko goes out and Roman hangs back as he no longer has a job.

It's War: Same Day as Roman's Sorrow, Evening/Night
This has to be done at night because Billy states how David Grossman covers up his gnarly tattoos in the day and poses as a biker by night, so it's safe to assume that he's off the clock which would indicate that it's past five o'clock. And of course it should take place on the same day as Roman's Sorrow because of the news story that appears afterward.

Escuela of the Streets to The Snow Storm coming next...

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#194

Posted 30 November 2009 - 06:34 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 30 November 2009 - 06:37 PM.

I agree with everything above accept two things. First off, Shadow.. I think it's best done at night because not only is the cover of darkness best for following somebody, it also runs straight into Clean and Serene. So Niko does shadow late the Night before and then goes to bed.. Then The Lost set out early the next morning (6 AM) to pick Billy up from Rehab.

I also have a different Time for Angels in America/No Love Lost.. Billy comments that he's only been out of rehab a few hours and already the AOD are troubling him. This would mean that it takes place on the same day as Clean and Serene. So I'd say Niko wakes up after Clean and Serene and goes to do Final Destination which takes a few hours by which time Johnny enters the bar area of the Clubhouse after a day of playing pool and sh*t with his brothers to find Billy and the boys celebrating (in the mid/late evening) after Angels in America Jason goes to pick up Anna Faustin to "f*ck her under the peer" at Firefly Island. After they leave Mrs. Faustin calls Mikhail and says Anna's run off with Jason.. Faustin comes from the club to deal with it, then Niko knocks on the door (Cue No Love Lost).

So Angels in America would be early evening and No Love Lost would be Late Evening/Night.

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#195

Posted 30 November 2009 - 08:35 PM

i dont think its war should take place the same day as romans sorrow since there is no real crossover but everything else looks good.

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#196

Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Nov 30 2009, 18:34)
I agree with everything above accept two things. First off, Shadow.. I think it's best done at night because not only is the cover of darkness best for following somebody, it also runs straight into Clean and Serene. So Niko does shadow late the Night before and then goes to bed.. Then The Lost set out early the next morning (6 AM) to pick Billy up from Rehab.

I also have a different Time for Angels in America/No Love Lost.. Billy comments that he's only been out of rehab a few hours and already the AOD are troubling him. This would mean that it takes place on the same day as Clean and Serene. So I'd say Niko wakes up after Clean and Serene and goes to do Final Destination which takes a few hours by which time Johnny enters the bar area of the Clubhouse after a day of playing pool and sh*t with his brothers to find Billy and the boys celebrating (in the mid/late evening) after Angels in America Jason goes to pick up Anna Faustin to "f*ck her under the peer" at Firefly Island. After they leave Mrs. Faustin calls Mikhail and says Anna's run off with Jason.. Faustin comes from the club to deal with it, then Niko knocks on the door (Cue No Love Lost).

So Angels in America would be early evening and No Love Lost would be Late Evening/Night.

I can see your point about Shadow, the name itself would suggest nighttime so I'll make that change. However, in Angels in America Billy says "I'm outta rehab three minutes and those deadbeats think they can crash my party?" Three minutes is just a simple exaggeration indicating that he just got out recently. But I'd still say your Angels in America and No Love Lost works too.

QUOTE
i dont think its war should take place the same day as romans sorrow since there is no real crossover but everything else looks good.


It's more realistic if it takes place on the same day because the news story on the net would only take a few hours to update. So if the blast happened in the morning and It's War the following night then by the time you check the internet as Johnny the story will be up there.

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#197

Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:03 PM Edited by TheGreyGhost, 30 November 2009 - 11:32 PM.

its far less realistic to assume that it took the lost 1 whole week to find out one of their top enforcers was killed, especially when the radio reports it shortly after happening.

edit: reading through the whole topic i see this came up once before so i dont want to make a deal out of this again. i'm just saying its one thing to have it on the list, but it seems out of place to have it listed under times missions "should" take place as its unrealistic on both ends of the spectrum.

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#198

Posted 01 December 2009 - 01:41 AM

QUOTE (TheGreyGhost @ Nov 30 2009, 23:03)
its far less realistic to assume that it took the lost 1 whole week to find out one of their top enforcers was killed, especially when the radio reports it shortly after happening.

edit: reading through the whole topic i see this came up once before so i dont want to make a deal out of this again. i'm just saying its one thing to have it on the list, but it seems out of place to have it listed under times missions "should" take place as its unrealistic on both ends of the spectrum.

If you pay close attention to the cutscene of It's War you'll see that Brian and Billy already know about Jason being killed in advance as they help each other tell the story. Billy uses the story of his death as a motivational speach to provoke a fighting spirit in the gang. This becomes even more evident in the Mission Action/Reaction when Billy again tries to use the event to make The Lost gain in hatred for the AOD by saying it was actually them who killed Jason. So for this reason I think it's very plausable.

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#199

Posted 01 December 2009 - 10:15 PM

i have paid attention, and it appears much more as if Billy has just recently learned of his death rather than relaying old information to rally the gang. it really doesn't matter much though, as it is all personal opinion at this point.

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#200

Posted 02 December 2009 - 01:16 AM

QUOTE (TheGreyGhost @ Dec 1 2009, 22:15)
i have paid attention, and it appears much more as if Billy has just recently learned of his death rather than relaying old information to rally the gang. it really doesn't matter much though, as it is all personal opinion at this point.

That's true it is just personal opinion but I feel it was implyed. After playing This sh*t's cursed again I finally understand what happened.. I think.

Billy arranges for Johnny to be killed when he goes to give the Triads back their Heroin but instead the triads just take the heroin a run off with it using pistol fire to make Jim and Johnny retreat. Then as they attempt to make their escape they run into Billy who realises that the Triads double crossed him and attempts to fight only to get his ass kicked, at which point the police are called because of all the gunfire on the roof thats coming from Jim and Johnny and arrest Billy believing him to be the perpetrator. Billy then puts two and two together and comes up with five and thinking Johnny was in on the Triads screwing him over. So he goes to prison thinking Johnny set him up to become leader of the gang... as you would.

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#201

Posted 02 December 2009 - 03:52 AM

I've decided to move "Deconstruction for Beginners" and "Ruff Rider" down on my list to take place after "Bang Bang" after what was brought to my attention in the Liberty City Connections II thread. The way I understand it now is after Luis squared everything with Rocco and the Messinas, they decide to go on strike after Yusuf refuses to be blackmailed by them (assuming it is in fact the Messinas who are working the construction yard in DFB) I hope I got that right. So thanks for the debate, I never would have caught that on my own.

Anyway, here's "Escuela of the Streets" to "The Snow Storm":

Escuela of the Streets: Weekend, Daylight or Evening
We know now Malorie works, so assuming she didn't take a day off she would probably be at the center when she's not on shift. Manny can be filming any part of the day on any day of the week but he'd likely get his dancers when they are best available which could be morning, noon, or evenings and probably on the weekend mostly. The guys in the warehouse can be working a weekend shift as well.

Search and Delete: Work Hours, Weekend or Weekday
Like Roman, Brucie seems to be working his day job and it seems like Niko is visiting him at work. It's quite possible he's working on the weekend too seeing how most car maniacs seem to be passionate about the business and product so if it happens to be the weekend in your game it shouldn't be a problem but I'd still go with the hours though.

Easy As Can Be: Saturday or Sunday Morning/Noon OR Friday or Saturday Evening
It seems to me that Brucie has a date with him, either someone he met the night prior (maybe at Massionate) who came home with him or someone he's planning to take out the following night. He could be working out after a good night's rest or to get all pent up for clubbing. His assistant is working at the garage so you could assume that it's still a working day, but like I said above working on cars on the weekend isn't that big of a stretch. Players choice.

Street Sweeper: Daylight
Francis would likely make his visit to the "community" during the day, perhaps even on a weekend so not a big deal, just keep away from night, midnight or dawn.

Action/Reaction: Night/Midnight
I'm gonna assume that Ray would come visit the clubhouse at nightfall assuming he has a lot do worry about during the day, he's got a jacket on and the weather is usually cooler at night, plus the commotion and the surprise attack on the AOD also seem to be something Billy would strategize to happen when the moon is out.

Luck of the Irish: Weekday Evening OR Weekend Day or Evening
Again, Malorie must be off shift and everyone seems to be chilling out before they get to business so I'd say this would be best suited around Malorie's work hours.

Out of the Closet... Weekday Evening OR Weekend Day or Evening
Same thing as above accept I'm working around Brucie's supposed schedule and Roman is out of work. It's another mission where they're just hanging out and all you have to do is go to TW@.

Buyer's Market/ Blow Your Cover: Friday or Saturday Night
Friday night's party night! It could work Saturday too but I would prefer Friday. Plus a deal to take place so late in torn up apartment seems pretty authentic.

Out of the Closet: Random
The date and time for this mission is done for you via email.

Politics: Weekday Afternoon
Honestly, when else would you meet a congressman at work?

Coming Down: Any day or time
The first mission where it absolutely doesn't matter. At least I don't think so, Dawn, Morning, Afternoon, Evening, Night, Midnight, Weekday or Weekend, I don't see any problem as she's desperate to get out and the mission can activate at any time anyway so your lucky.

The Puerto Rican Connection: Day or Night
Filmmakers work at the most random hours much like people arriving on trains. I would just not go past midnight as maybe Niko would want to get rest.

The Snow Storm: Day or Night
This too maybe just do it when you get the phone call I don't think it really matters when this takes place. I wouldn't imagine Jacob being up early and visiting Liz so you can probably do it anytime but sunrise. As for Michelle she was probably sent to get the coke back or watching Niko so she too could be up at any time as well.

Next will be "Call and Collect" to "I Luv LC"

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#202

Posted 02 December 2009 - 03:21 PM

For Out of the Closet if you go to see Brucie at Night, send the email and then save your game twice it will be 12 hours later and you will get a text from Roman when you wake up. When you read Tom's email a time will be set it your organiser but you can go and take the second part of the mission straight from the internet cafe. After that mission I took Michelle to dinner and then went in for coffee just to prove to myself that I wasn't gay lol.

I think Coming Down Works best at night... there isn't much reasoning behind it I just think it's best suited to the night time. In relation to Niko's story I'd figure that when he goes to bed after Sending the email to French Tom, Johnny goes to save Ashley.


TheGreyGhost
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#203

Posted 02 December 2009 - 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Dec 2 2009, 01:16)
QUOTE (TheGreyGhost @ Dec 1 2009, 22:15)
i have paid attention, and it appears much more as if Billy has just recently learned of his death rather than relaying old information to rally the gang. it really doesn't matter much though, as it is all personal opinion at this point.

That's true it is just personal opinion but I feel it was implyed. After playing This sh*t's cursed again I finally understand what happened.. I think.

Billy arranges for Johnny to be killed when he goes to give the Triads back their Heroin but instead the triads just take the heroin a run off with it using pistol fire to make Jim and Johnny retreat. Then as they attempt to make their escape they run into Billy who realises that the Triads double crossed him and attempts to fight only to get his ass kicked, at which point the police are called because of all the gunfire on the roof thats coming from Jim and Johnny and arrest Billy believing him to be the perpetrator. Billy then puts two and two together and comes up with five and thinking Johnny was in on the Triads screwing him over. So he goes to prison thinking Johnny set him up to become leader of the gang... as you would.

That's pretty much what I always assumed as well. The whole point in the story was done pretty sloppy.

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#204

Posted 02 December 2009 - 05:47 PM Edited by Money Over Bullshit, 02 December 2009 - 05:50 PM.

QUOTE (TheGreyGhost @ Dec 2 2009, 15:45)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Dec 2 2009, 01:16)
QUOTE (TheGreyGhost @ Dec 1 2009, 22:15)
i have paid attention, and it appears much more as if Billy has just recently learned of his death rather than relaying old information to rally the gang. it really doesn't matter much though, as it is all personal opinion at this point.

That's true it is just personal opinion but I feel it was implyed. After playing This sh*t's cursed again I finally understand what happened.. I think.

Billy arranges for Johnny to be killed when he goes to give the Triads back their Heroin but instead the triads just take the heroin a run off with it using pistol fire to make Jim and Johnny retreat. Then as they attempt to make their escape they run into Billy who realises that the Triads double crossed him and attempts to fight only to get his ass kicked, at which point the police are called because of all the gunfire on the roof thats coming from Jim and Johnny and arrest Billy believing him to be the perpetrator. Billy then puts two and two together and comes up with five and thinking Johnny was in on the Triads screwing him over. So he goes to prison thinking Johnny set him up to become leader of the gang... as you would.

That's pretty much what I always assumed as well. The whole point in the story was done pretty sloppy.

Yeah it really was.. it actually kinda justifies Rockstar putting the crossover in... even if it does screw up the timeline a bit. I think it simply comes down to them having the story set out but not paying attention to the mission prerequisites they set in GTA IV.

The way it should go for Niko is:

Call and Collect
Harboring a Grudge
Waste Not Want Knots
Three Leaf Clover
Final Interview
Holland Nights
Lure
The Snow Storm
Have a Heart

With "This sh*t's Cursed" and Johnny's Missions for Elizabetha running parallel to those missions. The only real problem is that they seem to have forgotten that "Have a Heart" is a prerequisite for "Harboring a Grudge".
I think had that prerequisite not been there the story would've worked perfectly.

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#205

Posted 04 December 2009 - 12:31 AM

hey versityle

I've been playing along your list as you've been updating your times of day notes and have gotten up to It's War. It's been really good so far. I've got a couple of very small points to mention for consideration and one that's kind of crazy but worth mentioning.

Before I start I just wanted to say that both you and MOB seem to be pretty damn sharp catching things so no worries if you disagree with anything I'm about to list. These are just suggestions and I in no way expect anybody to change their lists just because I think they should.

Ok

First point is a REALLY small one but during the cut-scene for Hung Out To Dry Vlad mentions Niko doing Bull In A China Shop 'a few days ago' so I'd suggest maybe adding a small note to wait a day after shaking down the store owner before you initiate Hung Out To Dry. Since they come right after the other in your list I just took the day in between to do cab missions for roman and other activities.

I also noticed you have Niko's last mission as the LAST mission on your list. During Luis's mission 'Departure Time' they mention Dimitri already being dead right when Luis arrives at the 'fun fair.' So if you choose 'deal' in Niko's campaign Dimitri would still be alive during Departure Time and that would cause a continuity error. Sorry if somebody already brought this up to you.


Ok, now for the crazy one. Alot of people have brought up how awkward it is to kill Johnny and then not have Billy learn about it till days later. MOB offered up a pretty reasonable explanation recently, but it still just didn't sit right with me. So I tried to manipulate your list in order to have Billy mention Johnny within 24 hours of him being killed, while still having Niko complete Roman's Sorrow, and still stay true to your times of day ideas.(i had to fudge them a little bit, but i pulled it off)

here's your current list:

20. [J]Liberty City Choppers
21. [BG]Angles in America
22. [MF]No Love Lost
23. [MF]Rigged to Blow
24. [J]Bad Cop Drop
25. [DR]The Master and the Molotov
26. [DR]Russian Revolution

27. [R]Roman's Sorrow
28. [BG]It's War

here's how I changed it

20. Liberty City Choppers
21. Angels in America
22. No Love Lost
23. Rigged to Blow
24. The Master and The Molotov
25. Russian Revolution
26. Roman's Sorrow
27. Bad Cop Drop
28. It's War

This gets hot and heavy for Niko as your doing so many missions over a short span of time(my play style is usually one mission for each character a day) AND it ends your chapter on It's War instead of Russian Revolution, BUT it works as a chapter closing. Everything gets crazy until the new beginning of Escuala of the Streets where it can settle back into a normal pace.

I started Angels in America around 4 in the morning after Liberty City Choppers. I tend to see eye to eye with MOB here that Billy just got out and he's partying the whole night away.(jim also mentions going back to the clubhouse after LCC and you see him chilling in the opening cutscene of AIA). By starting it at 4 you still get the feel of Billy JUST getting out while having the mission run it's course in the daylight. I ended this off at around 08:30 in the morning on a sunday.

So then Niko triggers no love lost around 9 and meets Johnny around 10. So far so good. Then I head straight back to Faustins triggering RTB early afternoon.(Faustins out looking for dimitri whose probably meeting with petrovic and bulgarin while the Mrs. enjoys some tea on a sunday afternoon).

You do Rigged to Blow and end it late afternoon. Then as your driving home you get the dimitri call and meet him on firefly just as the suns going down and hit up faustin in his club right around 21-22 o'clock.

After you kill Faustin you call Dimitri when you get home to see if he has your money. He does(he's been planning this the whole day). You end russian revolution in the early morning, go see roman for roman's sorrow and end up early morning the day after no love's lost.

Then it's back to Johnny and if you perform one mission after the other you end up triggering It's War late enough(say 2 or 3 in the morning) that the lawyer could still be partying with Billy, and you finish the mission around 24 hours after Jason was killed(early morning), and right after Roman's Sorrow.(so when the news story about the cab depot comes on in [email protected] you're right in time)

Now, this is pretty intense and I could definately see you thinking it's just too much to try and get in there for the list. I just wanted to mention that it can be done in a realistic way without sacrificing continuity or the sense of realism you guys are trying to achieve.

Just some thoughts and again thanks to you and MOB for all the hard work. I'm having a blast playing so far....

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#206

Posted 04 December 2009 - 03:57 AM

QUOTE (wryan10 @ Dec 3 2009, 18:31)
I also noticed you have Niko's last mission as the LAST mission on your list.  During Luis's mission 'Departure Time' they mention Dimitri already being dead right when Luis arrives at the 'fun fair.'  So if you choose 'deal' in Niko's campaign Dimitri would still be alive during Departure Time and that would cause a continuity error.  Sorry if somebody already brought this up to you.

Interesting point, which I must also consider for my integrated mission tree. My view is that from Luis' perspective, Niko always chooses Revenge. The Episode intersections narrow the number of possible Niko paths that can be canonical. That's why these lists are being made, because of feelings that there might be a single best order of missions imposed by these intersections. If an order is defined, choices are reduced. It's possible the Deal choice gets reduced to a what-if. The Episodes intersect with a possible Niko storyline but not every possible Niko storyline.

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#207

Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:21 AM Edited by Jargner, 04 December 2009 - 05:30 AM.

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Nov 30 2009, 00:33)
No problem. That's what I mean about running things by each other.

While we're on the topic of listening to other people... A few pages back somebody told me that there was a "mistake" in my list becausae I had Logging On after Final Destination as they said it wasn't unlocked until after No Love Lost. I've only just realised that I was actually right, Logging On is in fact unlocked by completing Final Destination and not No Love Lost. I'm not going to change my list but I just thought I should bring it to people's attention... Magic Al in particular since I think the mistake is in his mission tree also.

Er, if you're referring to me, I had stated that Logging On had to be completed before Rigged to Blow in order to gain access to it. But you ALSO have to complete No Love Lost. confused.gif

EDIT: And I believe No Love Lost is unlocked by Final Destination.

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#208

Posted 04 December 2009 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE (Magic_Al @ Dec 4 2009, 03:57)
QUOTE (wryan10 @ Dec 3 2009, 18:31)
I also noticed you have Niko's last mission as the LAST mission on your list.  During Luis's mission 'Departure Time' they mention Dimitri already being dead right when Luis arrives at the 'fun fair.'  So if you choose 'deal' in Niko's campaign Dimitri would still be alive during Departure Time and that would cause a continuity error.  Sorry if somebody already brought this up to you.

Interesting point, which I must also consider for my integrated mission tree. My view is that from Luis' perspective, Niko always chooses Revenge. The Episode intersections narrow the number of possible Niko paths that can be canonical. That's why these lists are being made, because of feelings that there might be a single best order of missions imposed by these intersections. If an order is defined, choices are reduced. It's possible the Deal choice gets reduced to a what-if. The Episodes intersect with a possible Niko storyline but not every possible Niko storyline.

I don't see how the Deal gets reduced to a "what if" if they talk about gaining all of Dimitri's heroin. Considering that the Deal directly deals with Dimitri obtaining a huge amount of heroin, and the Revenge storyline just kind of magically gives him the heroin, I would think that it establishes the Revenge route as more of a "what if" than Deal...

Either way though, because Heroin is present within both paths, either one is still equally possible. Rockstar made it a point of not making either ending look better than the other.

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#209

Posted 04 December 2009 - 02:55 PM

QUOTE (Jargner @ Dec 4 2009, 05:21)
QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Nov 30 2009, 00:33)
No problem. That's what I mean about running things by each other.

While we're on the topic of listening to other people... A few pages back somebody told me that there was a "mistake" in my list becausae I had Logging On after Final Destination as they said it wasn't unlocked until after No Love Lost. I've only just realised that I was actually right, Logging On is in fact unlocked by completing Final Destination and not No Love Lost. I'm not going to change my list but I just thought I should bring it to people's attention... Magic Al in particular since I think the mistake is in his mission tree also.

Er, if you're referring to me, I had stated that Logging On had to be completed before Rigged to Blow in order to gain access to it. But you ALSO have to complete No Love Lost. confused.gif

EDIT: And I believe No Love Lost is unlocked by Final Destination.

That's not tue... you can do No Love Lost regardless of wether you've done logging on or not.

QUOTE
First point is a REALLY small one but during the cut-scene for Hung Out To Dry Vlad mentions Niko doing Bull In A China Shop 'a few days ago' so I'd suggest maybe adding a small note to wait a day after shaking down the store owner before you initiate Hung Out To Dry. Since they come right after the other in your list I just took the day in between to do cab missions for roman and other activities.

Yeah that sounds good to me because it doesn't affect anybody's story but Niko's. I'm still pretty cvonvinced that Brian and Billy had known abouyt Jason's death prior to It's War and tbh I'd rather just stick by my own order on the other things you mentioned if that's ok.

In regards to the heroin. As mentioned above, Dimitri's death and aquisition of the heroin is canon whichever ending you choose... Departure Time is no doubt the Final Mission though.

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#210

Posted 04 December 2009 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Money Over Bullsh*t @ Dec 4 2009, 08:55)
In regards to the heroin. As mentioned above, Dimitri's death and aquisition of the heroin is canon whichever ending you choose... Departure Time is no doubt the Final Mission though.

I really don't believe that it's the final mission for BOTH endings.

To me, I think when Departure Time would take place depends on the Deal/Revenge decision itself.

BTW, just as a way to settle the whole "mission prerequisites" thing, I'll try to find my strategy guide and settle this once and for all.




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