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[REL|IV] Weapon Realism Mod

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MattyDienhoff
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#1

Posted 27 August 2009 - 05:37 AM Edited by MattyDienhoff, 14 July 2010 - 10:03 AM.

This mod tweaks weapon attributes to make them behave more like they should, without overdoing it or altering the difficulty curve much. Significant changes include extended effective range for most weapons, and altered damage, rate of fire and magazine capacity for some others. The net result of all this is the weapons are more logical in terms of specs and capabilities, are more satisfying to use and - under the right circumstances - are more effective, both in the player's hands and in the hands of their opponents.

This is version 1.1, a big update to my previous release. I've made countless changes since 1.0 (so many even I lost track), and the mod is now a much more comprehensive overhaul.

---Summary of changes---

* The effective range of almost all of the weapons has been extended significantly. By default, effective range on pretty much anything but a sniper rifle drops off suddenly at a relatively short distance. This would, all too often, leave the player able to clearly see a target but not hit it. While before a bullet fired from an assault rifle could hardly cover the length of a city block before disappearing into thin air, assault rifles can now be used to target enemies out to a few hundred meters away.

* Magazine capacities of certain weapons have been changed to reflect their magazines' actual dimensions (the Pump Shotgun's magazine is too small to fit 8 shells, it now holds 4, likewise the Micro SMG which now holds 32 rounds instead of 50) and changes in caliber (the Pistol, despite appearing to be a 9mm Glock 17 at first glance, is actually a Glock 22 in .40 S&W, the stats have been updated to reflect this.).

* The damage of certain weapons has been increased, while the physics force of most weapons has been decreased (the only exceptions being the shotguns, their force has been increased slightly). Appropriately, given their calibers, the Assault Rifle (AK-47) is now more powerful than the Carbine Rifle (M4A1), though it is slightly less accurate.

* The accuracy of some weapons has been increased slightly, while others' accuracy has been reduced slightly. This is all very subtle, the biggest changes in this regard were made to the shotguns, and even those were only slight, to avoid creating issues with AI targeting.

* The rates of fire of some weapons has been adjusted. The Desert Eagle's rate of fire has been reduced to simulate Niko absorbing and compensating for the weapon's heavy recoil, while the rates of fire of the Micro SMG, SMG, AK-47 and M4A1 have been increased, with the M4A1 having the highest rate of fire. Previously, a bug caused the SMG's blindfire rate of fire to be noticeably slower than its normal rate of fire, this has been compensated for, so now the weapon fires at exactly (or almost exactly) the same speed however it's used.

* The shotguns have been changed significantly. Both the Pump Shotgun (the short one) and the Combat Shotgun now have slightly smaller capacities (4 and 8 respectively), but they are significantly more powerful, moderately more accurate and have extended range, particularly so in the Combat Shotgun's case. Pre-modding, I found the shotguns to be rather useless compared to SMGs and assault rifles, but now they're utterly deadly in close quarters and the combat shotgun eats cars for breakfast.

* The maximum ammo capacities of most weapons has been reduced to 10 magazines' worth or less (For example, the AK-47's maximum ammo capacity is 300). On the one hand, it's still unrealistic, but not it's as excessive as before. On the other hand, it forces you to resupply a bit more often, but you won't be running out of ammo all the time unless you waste it.

Check the table in the screenshots below for a detailed overview of the changes.

oc student
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#2

Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:19 AM

You can't make guns realistic and balanced in game. Simple. You say in the first pic that the shotty will hit though, do little damage. Not realistic. Shotguns in real life can easily kill at that range. If you were going to make anything even close to realistic, then you'd add recoil in the game which you didn't mention at all. You say that you were going to slightly increase the damage. Still not at all realistic. Guns kill with 1-2 shots in real life.

n11lc2
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#3

Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:46 AM

isn't there a glitch were when using a mouse the gun has no bullet spread, but with controller it does?

MattyDienhoff
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#4

Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:00 AM

QUOTE
You can't make guns realistic and balanced in game. Simple.

That depends on your definitions of 'realistic' and 'balanced'. No game is perfectly realistic, because a perfect simulation of reality is impossible. Besides which, I'm not trying to turn the game into a tactical shooter with this mod, because even if I wanted to, it's impossible to do so, since the game doesn't even simulate bullet travel time or drop. All I ever intended to do with this mod is make the weapons more logical than they were before, that I've done. Of course they're still not perfectly realistic, or anywhere near tactical shooter material, this is still GTA, after all.

Since this is a game, everything is a compromise between realism and gameyness, there is no perfect synthesis of the two, because everyone has different opinions. GTA IV is more realistic than its predecessors in the series (which were a complete joke, especially in terms of guns), but it's still nowhere near as realistic as a lot of the games I'm used to.

QUOTE
You say in the first pic that the shotty will hit though, do little damage. Not realistic. Shotguns in real life can easily kill at that range.

That may be true, it would depend on the shotgun, what it's loaded with, and, especially, whether the target is armored or not. Besides all that, you have to remember that the pump action shotgun (which, mind, is a shortened Ithaca 37, not the most effective of shotguns at range) is very commonly used in the game by police and other enemies. Even increasing its power as much as I have already makes shootouts with the police more difficult (not too difficult, by my estimation, but more difficult all the same), so I have to keep that angle in mind. All this said, the shotguns are more effective now. Both have impressive stopping power at close ranges, and the combat shotgun, most of all, is considerably more

QUOTE
If you were going to make anything even close to realistic, then you'd add recoil in the game which you didn't mention at all.

Firstly, in a third-person shooter, how do even go about depicting recoil? By widening the crosshairs and simply making bullets spread more during sustained fire? (which is what the game does now) By jolting the crosshairs around when you fire a weapon to make it harder to stay on target? What? In a third person game, since you don't see from the player character's perspective, it doesn't work the same way.

Recoil is visually manifested in the way Niko is animated (which I can't change), and physically manifested in increased spread, basically. How would I, for example, incorporate sway in a third-person shooter, when your perspective isn't looking down the weapon's sights but just looking over the PC's shoulder? I agree that it's far too easy to aim accurate shots in this game. Stance, fatigue, and other factors such as those have little or no effect on the player's accuracy, and blindfiring is ridiculously effective (the first shot is usually right on the dot), but I haven't found any way to nerf that yet.

Anyway, I could tinker with the accuracy and the dispersion of the weapons to see if I can achieve a different feel in-game, but I'm reluctant to tweak anything too much because I'm told significantly reducing the accuracy of any of the weapons messes up the AI's targeting so they almost never hit you, which would obviously make the game far too easy.

QUOTE
You say that you were going to slightly increase the damage. Still not at all realistic.

Firstly, there's no easy way to accurately describe in just a couple sentences exactly how much I increased each weapon's damage, so I suggest you take a look at that table I linked to. Secondly...

QUOTE
Guns kill with 1-2 shots in real life.

lol.gif

Where do I even start with this? That depends on a million different things. For example, the caliber and ballistic profile of the bullet used, at what range it's fired, at what velocity it hits, and, perhaps most importantly, where it hits the target. I'm no ballistics expert, but I know there are countless variables involved in whether a bullet even hits its intended target, let alone how much damage it does to that target. I'm also no coroner, yet I know that not only can people survive being shot multiple times if the bullets miss arteries and vital organs, but also that it's possible for a person to be shot several times, sustaining lethal wounds, and still function for some time before they succumb to their injuries, (Ask the FBI if you don't believe me.) so there is actually some merit in the way GTA IV depicts injuries (downed NPCs sometimes simply lay there, incapacitated but still alive, and occasionally get up and limp off)

All that aside, the fact is that I did increase the stopping power of many of the weapons, and I don't feel you're qualified to criticize those changes until you've had a chance to test them out.

QUOTE
isn't there a glitch were when using a mouse the gun has no bullet spread, but with controller it does?

I'm not sure, because I've never played this game with a controller. To be sure I'd have to do a comparison.

Panocek
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#5

Posted 27 August 2009 - 12:27 PM

Your weapon statistics aren't very realistic - for example, Micro Uzi have very short effective range, by very short barrel and high recoil. Setting range around 35-40 meters should be "real"

Check my weapon stats, may they inspire you (from SA, but they quite real)

pistol (Colt 1911)
weapon range-30; damage-40; recoil increased; ROF reduced; capacity 7
silenced_pistol (silenced Colt 1911)
weapon range-20; damage-40; recoil increased; ROF reduced; capacity 7
DE ( Desert eagle .50)
weapon range-45; damage-66; recoil increased; ROF reduced; capacity 7

Shotgun (Remington 870)
weapon range-40; damage-12 per pellet; spread default; ROF default
Sawnoff (Sawnoff)
weapon range-20; damage-12 per pellet; spread increased; ROF default; capacity 2
combat_shotgun (SPAS-12)
weapon range-40; damage-12 per pellet; spread increased; ROF default; capacity 7

Micro_Uzi (Uzi)
weapon range-40; damage-33; recoil default; ROF +-600rpm; capacity 25
Tec9 (Mac-10)
weapon range-30; damage-33; recoil increased; ROF +-1200rpm; capacity 32
Mp5 (mp5)
weapon range-50; damage-33; recoil reduced; ROF +-900rpm; capacity 30

Ak47 (AKM)
weapon range-100; damage-51; recoil increased; ROF +-600rpm; capacity 30
M4 (M4A1)
weapon range-125; damage-45; recoil reduced; ROF +-800rpm; capacity 30

rifle (M14)
weapon range-150; damage-75; recoil significantly increased; ROF +-600rpm; capacity 20
sniper (scoped M14)
weapon range-350; damage-75; recoil significantly increased; ROF reduced; capacity 20

About:
pistols packs more punch (thanks to 0.45 and 0.50 ammunition), but have more recoil. SMGs are three different types - "machine pistol" (Mac-10) with very high ROF and recoil, full-scale Uzi (as hand shooting SMG) with lower ROF and controllable recoil and shoulder-fired Mp5 with high ROF and low recoil. AKM is like AK - high power, high kick. Full auto is effective only in small distances, at range you need single shots or short bursts, M4 have lower damage and much lower recoil (like 5.56mm), making it full auto friendly at most ranges. Both M14s have too high recoil for full auto, but delivers high damage thanks to 7.62x51mm ammo.
Weapons comes from Grim and Millenia weaponpacks.

Drunk Russian 9
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#6

Posted 28 August 2009 - 06:52 AM

Hmm, been looking forward to something like this.

If possible, can you create a version with no AI barriers for the RP community? Thanks if so.

Also, yes the controller has recoil while the mouse does not. Major bug which R* ignored.

XXLpeanuts
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#7

Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:59 AM

Okay there is one serious problem with this mod, it makes it so Vehicles blow up with about 2 hits!!!!!!!!!!
I mean shots rather, i assume this is due to weapons damage being increased but it is a real problem the cars just blow straight away when in a shoot out.

Anna&I
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#8

Posted 28 August 2009 - 02:58 PM Edited by Anna&I, 28 August 2009 - 03:02 PM.

Is it any way to keep the bullets from spreading or is that an animation thing ? Is there anyway to make the bullets hit more accurately when target is at a far distance ?

I changed the accuracy and the target range and it targets enemies , but a certain distances the bullets spread too far to hit the target.

MattyDienhoff
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#9

Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:11 AM Edited by MattyDienhoff, 29 August 2009 - 02:21 AM.

QUOTE ("Panocek")
Your weapon statistics aren't very realistic - for example, Micro Uzi have very short effective range, by very short barrel and high recoil. Setting range around 35-40 meters should be "real"

You're right that the Uzi should be a heavily range-limited weapon, but simply reducing the 'range' value to 40 is not the way to go about it. The thing you have to remember is, in GTA IV, 'range' means maximum range. In other words, 'range' is the absolute maximum distance at which the bullets fired from the weapon will do any damage whatsoever. This means that shots fired from a weapon will be totally effective until they reach that distance, and will then literally disappear. So the shorter a weapon's 'range' is, the more obvious it is when it drops off suddenly like that. We're talking situations in which you're shooting at something and damaging it, you take a step back, and the bullets suddenly cease to have any effect because you just exceeded the weapon's range by taking a step backwards.

An alternative way of doing it would be to give the Uzi a fairly long 'range' (say, 100 meters?), but make it so inaccurate that it'd literally be ineffective beyond about 40 meters because it would be difficult to hit anything any further than that. (This would be a more realistic way of doing it, because a real Micro Uzi's range is limited because it's hard to control and not very accurate, not because the bullets simply disappear after traveling a certain distance.)

The problem is that significantly reducing the accuracy of any of the weapons messes up the AI's targeting so they can barely hit the player. There may be a way around this, in that one could, conceivably, make two separate versions of each weapon, one for the player, with realistic-ized, heavily reduced accuracy, and one for the AI, with similar stats, but adapted so it won't ruin their marksmanship too much. That could probably be done, but that'd create a whole new set of problems. For example, any weapons you took from dead NPCs would be AI versions with different stats.

The recoil angle is worth looking at. Making the weapon so uncontrollable during sustained fire that it's very difficult to even hold one's aim on a distant target would do the trick, because it would mean that it's still possible to hit fairly distant targets (because the bullets don't simply disappear) but it would be very difficult to fire accurately so you wouldn't even bother trying, but this brings me back to what I said before about recoil and the difficulties of simulating it in this game.

The thing that gets me about movies and games is, whenever they depict weapons like machine pistols and shotguns which usually have a folding stock, the actors/characters almost never use the stock. It's usually left folded or even removed entirely. Those weapons have stocks for a reason. sigh.gif

Anyway, Panocek, your numbers do make plenty of sense for the most part, but one thing stood out to me as incorrect:

QUOTE ("Panocek")
Ak47 (AKM)
weapon range-100
M4 (M4A1)
weapon range-125

The AKM should have the longer effective range of the two. The M4A1 is a carbine. A shortened assault rifle. The AK-47 is a full-length assault rifle with a longer barrel. This is assuming the M4A1, with its 14.5 inch barrel, should even be used in San Andreas in the first place, because it didn't exist in 1992. I know there's a model of an earlier model CAR-15 carbine out there somewhere for GTA:SA, and that's what I used when I played the game. And that had an 11.5 inch barrel, which would reduce its effective range even further in comparison to the AKM.

The simple fact at the end of all this is that getting these weapons to behave logically in-game just isn't as simple as crunching the numbers. Reducing the Micro Uzi's range to 35 meters might seem logical, but all it'll get you in-game is a weapon that goes from near perfect accuracy at 34.9 meters to complete ineffectiveness at 35.1 meters as the bullets disappear centimeters short of their intended target.

QUOTE ("Drunk Russian 9")
If possible, can you create a version with no AI barriers for the RP community? Thanks if so.

I probably could, if I knew how you wanted it different. tounge2.gif

QUOTE ("XXLpeanuts")
Okay there is one serious problem with this mod, it makes it so Vehicles blow up with about 2 hits!!!!!!!!!!
I mean shots rather, i assume this is due to weapons damage being increased but it is a real problem the cars just blow straight away when in a shoot out.

Short answer: no.

Two hits from what, exactly? Two hits from a shotgun to the gas tank area may do it, but you're suggesting two hits from any weapon to any part of any vehicle will do that, which is an utter falsehood. If you were to produce a video of, say, an MP10 setting a police car on fire from two hits, or even an AK-47, I'd acknowledge it's big a problem, but I've never had that happen, personally.

That said, I'll agree that cars catch fire too easily. But they already did, even with default weapon stats, and the fact that some of the weapons (and especially the shotguns) are more powerful now only compounds the problem. Even so, I don't consider that to be my problem, because I made my changes to the weapon damage with their effects on NPCs in mind. I may make the vehicles more resistant to gunfire in the future if I can figure out how and find the time to do it, but until then, I suggest you give that realistic handling mod a try, because I know for a fact its creator made the vehicles more resistant to gunfire.

QUOTE ("Anna&I")
I changed the accuracy and the target range and it targets enemies , but a certain distances the bullets spread too far to hit the target.

It sounds like you reduced the accuracy, but you wanted to increase it. Keep fiddling with the accuracy settings and see what happens, I forget whether a larger or smaller value translates into increased accuracy. confused.gif

oc student
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#10

Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:11 AM

In a member's siggy you will see the comparision of controller fire and mouse fire. Huge differences. I'm not sure who has it but if you stay here often ehough then you will see it.

Panocek
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#11

Posted 29 August 2009 - 04:32 PM Edited by Panocek, 29 August 2009 - 04:50 PM.

QUOTE
You're right that the Uzi should be a heavily range-limited weapon, but simply reducing the 'range' value to 40 is not the way to go about it. The thing you have to remember is, in GTA IV, 'range' means maximum range


I know about this, because that i put between my words "effective"

QUOTE
Your weapon statistics aren't very realistic - for example, Micro Uzi have very short effective range, by very short barrel and high recoil. Setting range around 35-40 meters should be "real"


Big problem is that many weapons (except shotguns) have 100% accuracy in first shot in GTA4 and GTA SA, so "sniping" with MicroUzi is possible. That is reason why I put range=30 instead 80 in MAC-10.

I know, bullet don't disappear after some range, but, as you noticed it, its difficult to make "real" stats. Maybe setting max range for MicroUzi around 80m-100m and setting "lock on" range around 30m and adjust recoil/bullet drop/damage loss (Cleo/ASI scripts?) to this value should be the closest to "real".


Yes, the AK47 bullet have more "lethal" range than M4, but, as far as I know, it is somewhat difficult to hit target beyond 100 meters, because of bullet drop, recoil and not so good ironsights. M4 keeps good accuracy at this range and above, but have significant damage loss.

XXLpeanuts
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#12

Posted 29 August 2009 - 06:21 PM Edited by XXLpeanuts, 29 August 2009 - 06:26 PM.

Okay yea cheers, good idea with the realistic handling mod i may well do so.

Ah sadly the realistic driving mod replaces the Weaponinfo.xml so that would completely over-write your mod sad.gif
Any chance you can find out how to increase car resiliance to bullets?

supermortalhuman
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#13

Posted 29 August 2009 - 06:28 PM Edited by supermortalhuman, 29 August 2009 - 06:30 PM.

Yea man, the game is easy to kill in because this is NOT a challenging shooting game, it's an interactive movie... There are challenging places in it, but for the most part, just like you are not supposed to follow traffic laws and "this is gta" and you should be running into things in a mad dash to your location, the same applies for gun battles and this is the FIRST game I've seen do it right like that. I'm enjoying eye visuals effortlessly going through the various scenes, with various different ways to do the job, without worrying so much about my guns or aiming. YES you do need to be quick and precise to a degree to really blast through missions like a movie star would, but again, this game isn't about the driving laws, or driving in general. It's not about the guns and accuracy, it's not about friends and pool and bowling, it's ALL of these things combined. Bowling doesn't feel like bowling, pool doesn't feel like pool, so I don't mind that my guns have no consequence (aim) and my driving feels like a remote control car (not realistic at all, really, only visually) because it all is one big, huge, never-been-done by anyone else experience.

If it was an FPS with f*ck all to do except shoot fake looking creatures and look gay in a stupid ass suit and over rated graphics, sure, I'd be wondering about these guns. Since it's GTA, I'm really really happy with it.

With all that, I bet the people who get into this as a straight up shooter will really like your mod, for me, I'm going to stick with these (especially if it makes niko die faster as well tounge.gif )

MattyDienhoff
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#14

Posted 30 August 2009 - 01:10 AM

QUOTE ("oc student")
In a member's siggy you will see the comparision of controller fire and mouse fire. Huge differences.

Thanks, I'll keep a lookout.

QUOTE ("Panocek")
I know about this, because that i put between my words "effective"

Sorry, I missed that. confused.gif

QUOTE ("Panocek")
Yes, the AK47 bullet have more "lethal" range than M4, but, as far as I know, it is somewhat difficult to hit target beyond 100 meters, because of bullet drop, recoil and not so good ironsights. M4 keeps good accuracy at this range and above, but have significant damage loss.

This is true, but the problem is none of those factors that make the AK... awkward to use at long range, shall we say, can be adequately simulated in this engine, the only thing that can be easily adjusted is how far the bullets go before disappearing.

QUOTE ("XXLpeanuts")
Okay yea cheers, good idea with the realistic handling mod i may well do so.

Ah sadly the realistic driving mod replaces the Weaponinfo.xml so that would completely over-write your mod  cryani.gif
Any chance you can find out how to increase car resiliance to bullets

The WeaponInfo.xml included with that mod is an optional component that you don't have to install. The changes that mod makes the vehicles are made in other files.

That WeaponInfo.xml is in there because the creator changed a few things about the weapons so they made more sense to him (namely maximum range), and bundled it with his vehicle mod. I did the same thing, but in more detail (since that was the purpose of my mod from the beginning, as opposed to an extra).

Anyway, since it's optional, you don't have to use his replacement, which means you can use mine instead if you want.

QUOTE ("supermortalhuman")
If it was an FPS with f*ck all to do except shoot fake looking creatures and look gay in a stupid ass suit and over rated graphics, sure, I'd be wondering about these guns. Since it's GTA, I'm really really happy with it.

With all that, I bet the people who get into this as a straight up shooter will really like your mod, for me, I'm going to stick with these (especially if it makes niko die faster as well tounge.gif)

I think you misunderstand just how severe this mod's changes to the weapons are. This mod is just an effort to make the weapons as logical as possible without messing up the gameplay. I'm not trying to turn the game into a 'one-shot kill' tactical shooter, because that's not only impossible due to technical limitations, but inappropriate for this kind of game, as you say.

I wrote a long post about this exact subject ages ago, so I'll save myself some bother and quote it:

QUOTE ("MattyDienhoff")
No game is perfectly realistic, few games are even mostly realistic. The general rule of semi-realistic games (in other words, the majority of non-arcade games in a real-life setting with no major fantasy or sci-fi element) is that things are realistic unless there's a good reason they shouldn't be. A semi-realistic game should be authentic in the ways that count (cars should handle like they weigh more than a paper cup, firearms should not be so powerful that a single shot to the foot is an instant kill, and so on), but not so realistic that it extinguishes the fun.

For example, it's not realistic that Niko routinely survives in excess of a dozen 9mm bullets to the torso even without armor, but it is that way because the game would be impossible to play unless it was built from the ground up with a tactical shooter's gameplay in mind. This is an acceptable compromise in an action game.

There's also a fine line between something being unrealistic and something being totally ridiculous and unbelievable. The fact that Niko can fly through the windscreen of a car and hit a solid object at speed with a sickening crack, yet suffer no broken bones or internal injuries, is unrealistic; but nowhere near as unrealistic as having the ability to leap off of a 50 storey building and only lose 15 points of armor when you land (Yes, Tommy Vercetti, I mean you.).

So obviously, while GTA IV does strive to come across as immersive, believable and somewhat realistic, it's still an action game and it's gameplay is designed with this in mind. It's not meant to be a tactical shooter, and it's not meant to be a simulation. GTA IV wasn't designed to be as realistic as possible, but to be realistic unless there's a good reason not to be.

That's the logic I had in mind when I made this mod, that things should make sense unless there's a good reason why not. For example, the bolt-action sniper rifle in GTA IV has a visibly extended magazine which should hold 10 rounds, yet by default it can hold only 5. There's no good reason for this, so I changed it to 10 so it makes sense. (After all, why would someone go to the expense of adding an extended magazine to a rifle and then only half-fill it?) The bolt-action sniper rifle is still inferior to the semi-auto, because even with a 10 round magazine, it still has a much lower rate of fire due to the way it works, so this change doesn't have any significant effect on game difficulty or balancing, it just makes the weapon more logical.

The fact that some of the weapons are made more powerful does make the shootouts more difficult, but not a lot more difficult. The feel of the game is barely changed, if at all. If you're still not convinced, watch this 30 minute long rampage I put on YouTube. I was using this exact mod in the video.

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#15

Posted 01 August 2010 - 02:51 AM

EFLC extension in progress

I'm working on an extension to this mod for Episodes From Liberty City. It will apply the same changes to the original set of weapons and alter the new weapons in a variety of ways.

Plans for the new weapons
  • Reduce the accuracy of certain weapons, such as the Automatic Pistol.
  • Tighten the sawn-off shotgun's groups a bit.
  • Alter the rate of fire of some weapons, especially the AA-12 which fires way too slowly.
  • Reduce the fuse time on the Grenade Launcher's grenades.
  • Change wielding animations for the Uzi and M249 so Luis fires them from the shoulder.

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#16

Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:00 PM

What happened to the EFLC version? You still working on it man?

francisisgay
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#17

Posted 01 June 2014 - 05:16 PM

When is eflc going be released?


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#18

Posted 02 June 2014 - 12:39 PM

Did you check when the OP was last active? He's not around anymore.





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