Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

PC Version [at] gamescom 2009 ?

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
162 replies to this topic
CharmingCharlie
  • CharmingCharlie

    Proud PC Gamer

  • Members
  • Joined: 23 May 2006

#91

Posted 05 August 2009 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE (ivelintod @ Aug 5 2009, 08:06)
Perhaps it won't come 'cus if you enter TLAD PC Rumours in gta4.net you'll see that there has been added this note : Editor's Note from Andy: This post was tweaked to clarify a few details. We offer our apologies to the rabid PC gaming masses for any confusion that we've caused.

Like I said, it is up to you what you want to believe. There is no technical, legal or contractual reason why MS wouldn't allow the PC to have the DLC after a certain length of time. You have to remember here Microsoft has a very heavy stake in the PC industry. If I was to guesstimate here I would say they will make us wait at least the same length of time as Xbox users did. So the TLaD DLC appeared on the xbox 10 months after GTA 4 on the Xbox. If we use that as a rough guide it means we should see it around October/November.

As always we just have to wait and see, I don't doubt for a second we will see the DLC and those that are saying we won't see the DLC will have egg on their faces soon enough. Still it wouldn't be the first time after all who remembers the constant "you won't get GTA 4 on the PC EVER" posts.

cqdemal
  • cqdemal

    Player Hater

  • Members
  • Joined: 21 Mar 2009

#92

Posted 05 August 2009 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Aug 5 2009, 14:15)
QUOTE (ivelintod @ Aug 5 2009, 08:06)
Perhaps it won't come 'cus if you enter TLAD PC Rumours in gta4.net you'll see that there has been added this note : Editor's Note from Andy: This post was tweaked to clarify a few details. We offer our apologies to the rabid PC gaming masses for any confusion that we've caused.

Like I said, it is up to you what you want to believe. There is no technical, legal or contractual reason why MS wouldn't allow the PC to have the DLC after a certain length of time. You have to remember here Microsoft has a very heavy stake in the PC industry. If I was to guesstimate here I would say they will make us wait at least the same length of time as Xbox users did. So the TLaD DLC appeared on the xbox 10 months after GTA 4 on the Xbox. If we use that as a rough guide it means we should see it around October/November.

As always we just have to wait and see, I don't doubt for a second we will see the DLC and those that are saying we won't see the DLC will have egg on their faces soon enough. Still it wouldn't be the first time after all who remembers the constant "you won't get GTA 4 on the PC EVER" posts.

Quite true. I think I can even recall similar discussions over the fate of GTA: SA back when the PS2 version was still fresh.

Jimbo_V
  • Jimbo_V

    Mark Chump

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Aug 2007

#93

Posted 05 August 2009 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Aug 5 2009, 15:15)
Still it wouldn't be the first time after all who remembers the constant "you won't get GTA 4 on the PC EVER" posts.

RIGHT. icon14.gif
They said that they won't release a PC Version. And then... guess what? They DID it. They released a PC Version. colgate.gif
They let us wait. I want it so badly for PC and I believe that we WILL Get it. I hope you're right.
I mean MS could make a huge amount of money if they release a PC Version. smile.gif

Insom
  • Insom

    Punk-ass Bitch

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Jul 2009

#94

Posted 05 August 2009 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Aug 5 2009, 10:15)
Like I said, it is up to you what you want to believe. There is no technical, legal or contractual reason why MS wouldn't allow the PC to have the DLC after a certain length of time. You have to remember here Microsoft has a very heavy stake in the PC industry. If I was to guesstimate here I would say they will make us wait at least the same length of time as Xbox users did. So the TLaD DLC appeared on the xbox 10 months after GTA 4 on the Xbox. If we use that as a rough guide it means we should see it around October/November.

As always we just have to wait and see, I don't doubt for a second we will see the DLC and those that are saying we won't see the DLC will have egg on their faces soon enough. Still it wouldn't be the first time after all who remembers the constant "you won't get GTA 4 on the PC EVER" posts.

I don't believe Microsoft cares much about putting games on PC anymore. They haven't been putting their published games on it for over a year, including the RTS.

Spider-Vice
  • Spider-Vice

    ...I will very carefully explain to you why it cannot be.

  • Zaibatsu
  • Joined: 09 Oct 2006
  • Portugal
  • Contribution Award [GTA V]

#95

Posted 05 August 2009 - 05:07 PM

Insom, just wait for Windows 7. It's already complete but just wait for it's release and you'll see.

Hydro_PT
  • Hydro_PT

    THE S.T.A.L.KE.R.

  • Members
  • Joined: 06 Jan 2008

#96

Posted 05 August 2009 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE (ivelintod @ Aug 5 2009, 08:06)
Perhaps it won't come 'cus if you enter TLAD PC Rumours in gta4.net you'll see that there has been added this note : Editor's Note from Andy: This post was tweaked to clarify a few details. We offer our apologies to the rabid PC gaming masses for any confusion that we've caused.

That editor's note is pure bullsh*t in my opinion lol.

"We went ahead and contacted Rockstar regarding the matter, and it all turns out to be a big misunderstanding."

Hmm sure, just because you're part of GTA4.net, you won't get access to release dates of any game made by Rockstar. Do you really think they would say "oh yes, we're porting TLAD to the PC, but don't tell anyone, it's a secret". tounge2.gif

It was the same thing with GTA IV. It won't come, it won't come. But it came, an so will TLAD and TBOGT. We have many more chances of getting these DLCs than PS3 users. After all, Microsoft is related to PC like Microsoft is related to Xbox lol.


uNi
  • uNi

    Feroci

  • Administrator
  • Joined: 14 May 2004
  • Scotland
  • Best Official Gang 2014 [Feroci]

#97

Posted 05 August 2009 - 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Hydro_PT @ Aug 5 2009, 17:45)
QUOTE (ivelintod @ Aug 5 2009, 08:06)
Perhaps it won't come 'cus if you enter TLAD PC Rumours in gta4.net you'll see that there has been added this note : Editor's Note from Andy: This post was tweaked to clarify a few details. We offer our apologies to the rabid PC gaming masses for any confusion that we've caused.

That editor's note is pure bullsh*t in my opinion lol.

"We went ahead and contacted Rockstar regarding the matter, and it all turns out to be a big misunderstanding."

Hmm sure, just because you're part of GTA4.net, you won't get access to release dates of any game made by Rockstar. Do you really think they would say "oh yes, we're porting TLAD to the PC, but don't tell anyone, it's a secret". tounge2.gif

It was the same thing with GTA IV. It won't come, it won't come. But it came, an so will TLAD and TBOGT. We have many more chances of getting these DLCs than PS3 users. After all, Microsoft is related to PC like Microsoft is related to Xbox lol.

Actually yes, we usually trade useful information to make sure nothing gets leaked.

Freezer89
  • Freezer89

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Jan 2008
  • European-Union

#98

Posted 05 August 2009 - 06:16 PM

There will be no PC-Version of TLAD.

http://translate.goo...&hl=de&ie=UTF-8

In Original:
http://www.computerb...ng-4584233.html


confused.gif

FullMetal
  • FullMetal

    Non-Retard

  • Feroci
  • Joined: 23 Nov 2004
  • None

#99

Posted 05 August 2009 - 06:43 PM

I am disappoint... damnit.

And about Windows 7. Yes I'm sure it'll run games better than Vista... but why? Vista was a epic fail preformancewise and for many other reasons. They just HAD to make up for that. Do you really think MS is that stupid to release another OS that is as 'great' as or even 'greater' than Vista?

Apart from the preformance being better (or just, Windows 7 being superior to Vista)... that's about it. They don't care about PC gaming... all they care about is people who buy a computer to buy PC's along with Windows OS'. (in this case, Windows 7).


CharmingCharlie
  • CharmingCharlie

    Proud PC Gamer

  • Members
  • Joined: 23 May 2006

#100

Posted 05 August 2009 - 06:47 PM

QUOTE (Freezer89 @ Aug 5 2009, 19:16)
There will be no PC-Version of TLAD.

http://translate.goo...&hl=de&ie=UTF-8

In Original:
http://www.computerb...ng-4584233.html


confused.gif

Any PC gamer here remember this :-

QUOTE
ROCKSTAR RESPONSE
GTA IV For PC Very Doubtful

Okay, who here isnít crazy for GTA IV? Seriously. 360 fans running a muck about it and their DLC with PS3 fans going crazy over finally playing one of the most anticipated titles to date. Even the PC crowd is joining in on the action and asking about when itís likely GTA will come for the PC (e.g. 12 months+).
We hate to ruin the party for all the PC hopefuls out there, but Rockstar has something to say and you might want to sit down for this:
As for GTA IV coming out on the PC, thatís very doubtful as we currently have no plans to develop for the PC. We could only focus our efforts extensively on so many consoles at once, and PC might not see the light of day.

And the music stops. The DJís headphones pop out at the PC party crowd as the record warps a bit back. Itís dead silent. Nobody move.

http://whatifgaming....c-very-doubtful

In other words we have been down this bloody road time and time again. The DLC will come to the PC, the only question is WHEN.

Carnage1120
  • Carnage1120

    Misanthropic Wiseguy

  • Members
  • Joined: 30 Jan 2009

#101

Posted 05 August 2009 - 07:03 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Aug 5 2009, 18:47)
QUOTE (Freezer89 @ Aug 5 2009, 19:16)
There will be no PC-Version of TLAD.

http://translate.goo...&hl=de&ie=UTF-8

In Original:
http://www.computerb...ng-4584233.html


confused.gif

Any PC gamer here remember this :-

QUOTE
ROCKSTAR RESPONSE
GTA IV For PC Very Doubtful

Okay, who here isnít crazy for GTA IV? Seriously. 360 fans running a muck about it and their DLC with PS3 fans going crazy over finally playing one of the most anticipated titles to date. Even the PC crowd is joining in on the action and asking about when itís likely GTA will come for the PC (e.g. 12 months+).
We hate to ruin the party for all the PC hopefuls out there, but Rockstar has something to say and you might want to sit down for this:
As for GTA IV coming out on the PC, thatís very doubtful as we currently have no plans to develop for the PC. We could only focus our efforts extensively on so many consoles at once, and PC might not see the light of day.

And the music stops. The DJís headphones pop out at the PC party crowd as the record warps a bit back. Itís dead silent. Nobody move.

http://whatifgaming....c-very-doubtful

In other words we have been down this bloody road time and time again. The DLC will come to the PC, the only question is WHEN.

At least PC users have a great modding community

FullMetal
  • FullMetal

    Non-Retard

  • Feroci
  • Joined: 23 Nov 2004
  • None

#102

Posted 05 August 2009 - 07:13 PM

Which is all thanks to the players themselves... NOT thanks to the brilliant developers.

Shamefully there are fewer developers who are 'modding friendly'. I wished that Rockstar would've supported modding with GTAIV but unfortunatley they didn't.

Street Mix
  • Street Mix

    Blue lives don't matter

  • Members
  • Joined: 30 Mar 2008
  • United-States

#103

Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:16 PM Edited by Street Mix, 05 August 2009 - 08:22 PM.

QUOTE
There will be no PC-Version of TLAD.

http://translate.goo...&hl=de&ie=UTF-8

In Original:
http://www.computerb...ng-4584233.html


confused.gif

Hehe, nice. "We're not going to release TLaD on PC/PS3 but we'll show you 2 videos that you've seen already. 2 videos from the game that was released 6 months ago." mercie_blink.gif whatsthat.gif notify.gif

I also can't wait for the Half-Life 2 debut trailer at Gamecom 09.

davetheshrew
  • davetheshrew

    Rat

  • Members
  • Joined: 19 Jan 2009

#104

Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:25 PM

id be happy to fork out some cash for TLAD, i had a quick spin on a mates sh*tbox and its pretty good, even though the graphics SUCKED HARD!!! ,
"POW, right in the kisser!" devil.gif lol

Jimbo_V
  • Jimbo_V

    Mark Chump

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Aug 2007

#105

Posted 05 August 2009 - 11:12 PM

I'm not giving up the hope that TLAD comes to PC. I think till Summer 2010 at leat we WILL have it.
They said that there won't be a PC Version, so what do I play everyday? Oh yeah, the PC Version of GTA 4. biggrin.gif
They can't say that they will release a PC Version of TLAD because then we all would know it and there wouldn't be a surprise. So they work on it and when it's nearly finished they release a Trailer or two and Tadaaaaa!!!! colgate.gif "What never thought TLAD would come to PC, it's so suddenly, never expected that." biggrin.gif

Insom
  • Insom

    Punk-ass Bitch

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Jul 2009

#106

Posted 05 August 2009 - 11:41 PM

If it doesn't come to PC by the time it's a year old it won't ever come to PC. Late ports never sell and especially on PC. The torrent sites would have a lot of traffic however. lol.gif

CharmingCharlie
  • CharmingCharlie

    Proud PC Gamer

  • Members
  • Joined: 23 May 2006

#107

Posted 06 August 2009 - 12:58 AM

Then if people torrent it they shouldn't be overly shocked when the PC doesn't get TBoGT. I imagine Rockstar and MS will be looking at the sales of TLaD on the PC to see if they would be justified in bring TBoGT to the PC. So those "tempted" to steal it might want to bear that in mind, you steal TLaD then don't be surprised we don't get TBoGT.

Trooth
  • Trooth

    Drivin' around in rusty Vigero

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Jun 2009

#108

Posted 06 August 2009 - 05:51 AM

Maybe when R* gets enough profit from console games, they release them on PC for more profit. rolleyes.gif

Krougenox
  • Krougenox

    The Saints are Coming

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2009

#109

Posted 06 August 2009 - 05:52 AM

If Rockstar hasn't announced TLAD for PC, then it is not official, and that's it. Now i'm not against PC games/gamers because I am a PC gamer myself, and as much as i would like to see the GTA4 pc gamers experience the great masterpiece that are the GTA 4 DLC...it's not going to happen. Well not anytime soon. Microsoft announced the the first 2 DLC to be exclusive to the 360 like a year before GTA4 was available. That right there is the ONLY reason i have a 360 today! Do i regret my investment? Absolutely not.

But, we can always hope that someday the DLC will be available to all platforms.

ExitiumMachina
  • ExitiumMachina

    What?

  • Members
  • Joined: 01 Aug 2008

#110

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:12 AM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Aug 6 2009, 00:58)
Then if people torrent it they shouldn't be overly shocked when the PC doesn't get TBoGT.  I imagine Rockstar and MS will be looking at the sales of TLaD on the PC to see if they would be justified in bring TBoGT to the PC.  So those "tempted" to steal it might want to bear that in mind, you steal TLaD then don't be surprised we don't get TBoGT.

Yep...PC will be lucky to get anything after TLaD with the way sales looked on IV for PC.

Hydro_PT
  • Hydro_PT

    THE S.T.A.L.KE.R.

  • Members
  • Joined: 06 Jan 2008

#111

Posted 06 August 2009 - 06:18 PM

Well we didn't get a good port, did we? GTA IV on the PC didn't sell that much because:

1st - We got the game 9 months after the release on the consoles;
2nd - It was a bad port with a badly optimized engine - how many patches so far?;
3rd - We didn't get what they promise. They said the PC version was being build up from scratch, and it turns out it's just a port of the 360 version;

It's normal that it didn't sell good, unlike San Andreas or Vice City. It's their fault, not ours. Ok, piracy played a role, true, but good games always sell, specially GTA games (and now with online, a lot more people bought the game because of it). Just check the statistics. Even though piracy is making the PC not a choice for a lot of producers, there are still some out there who release great games (including exclusives) and they don't complain about piracy, do they? No, because their games were made for the PC and they're good.

GTA IV is good, is a great game, but the PC version came too late and with too many problems: no wonder it didn't sell that good.

Ruscris2
  • Ruscris2

    Snow Storm

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2009
  • European-Union

#112

Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:05 PM

QUOTE (Freezer89 @ Aug 5 2009, 18:16)
There will be no PC-Version of TLAD.

http://translate.goo...&hl=de&ie=UTF-8

In Original:
http://www.computerb...ng-4584233.html


confused.gif

Read carefully the title: "Producer denies PC announcement on Gamescom" So won't be announced at Gamescom ! It may be on ... E3 2010? (Just joking...or not ?) So it's a very very little chance to get it on PC !

Jimbo_V
  • Jimbo_V

    Mark Chump

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Aug 2007

#113

Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:26 PM

Yeah, there's the chance that we get it. MS updated GFWL.
Look: http://www.microsoft.../gfw3intro.aspx

CharmingCharlie
  • CharmingCharlie

    Proud PC Gamer

  • Members
  • Joined: 23 May 2006

#114

Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:29 PM

QUOTE (Hydro_PT @ Aug 6 2009, 19:18)
GTA IV is good, is a great game, but the PC version came too late and with too many problems: no wonder it didn't sell that good.

There is no excuse to steal this game, if people think it is a bad port then why are they stealing it to play it then ? The fact is with each release of the PC version of a GTA sales have consistently been lower :-

GTA 3 = 400,000 sold in the US on the PC
GTA VC = 300,000 sold in the US on the PC
GTA SA = 250,000 sold in the US on the PC

GTA 4 = 40,000 sold in the US on the PC as far as we know

So the series got consistently better but sales have steadily declined. People think it is a "free lunch" on the PC, if you steal the PC version then you are doing yourself NO favours. Now from what I can see the only thing keeping the PC in the running at the moment is Europe and Asia.

Anyway this is beside the point, if you steal the PC version of TLaD (when it comes) then don't be surprised when we don't get TBoGT. There is no such thing as a free lunch in this world and Rockstar will be looking at how well the PC version of the DLC does and it will factor into any decision they make regarding the PC format in the future. So before you go and click on that download button just think about that.

Street Mix
  • Street Mix

    Blue lives don't matter

  • Members
  • Joined: 30 Mar 2008
  • United-States

#115

Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:47 PM

QUOTE
GTA 3 = 400,000 sold in the US on the PC
GTA VC = 300,000 sold in the US on the PC
GTA SA = 250,000 sold in the US on the PC

GTA 4 = 40,000 sold in the US on the PC as far as we know

Where did you get these numbers? I doubt Steam and D2D sales were included (people are so lazy nowdays so they prefer to download instead of getting retail copy). And don't forget about Europe (Germany, Sweden etc.) and the rest of the world.

UltimateGTR
  • UltimateGTR

    Trick

  • Members
  • Joined: 17 May 2007
  • None

#116

Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:58 PM

I've got a legit retail copy of GTA4 PC and absolutely the same if they release any DLC for GTA4. If they release more games for PC, I'll buy it, eg: Midnight Club, which is one of the car racing games I like.

CharmingCharlie
  • CharmingCharlie

    Proud PC Gamer

  • Members
  • Joined: 23 May 2006

#117

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:08 PM

QUOTE (Street Mix @ Aug 6 2009, 20:47)
Where did you get these numbers? I doubt Steam and D2D sales were included (people are so lazy nowdays so they prefer to download instead of getting retail copy). And don't forget about Europe (Germany, Sweden etc.) and the rest of the world.

The numbers came from here , I know they are only US numbers and I clearly indicated that. Oh and lets stop fooling ourselves with the old "oh and that doesn't count steam sales" sh*t. The sales numbers are going down at an alarming rate. It is blatantly obvious that GTA 4 was pirated to hell and back on the PC by bastards that were just after a free lunch and no amount of "oh well that doesn't include steam sales" will counteract that.

Now we have rumours and hints that we will get TLaD and already some are saying they are going to steal it or torrent it. If you think GTA 4 is a bad port then leave it alone, if you disagree with the DLC then leave it alone. I will quite happily pay for the DLC when it comes to the PC and if people want to see GTA continue on the PC they would do well to do the same.

Hydro_PT
  • Hydro_PT

    THE S.T.A.L.KE.R.

  • Members
  • Joined: 06 Jan 2008

#118

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:09 PM

QUOTE (CharmingCharlie @ Aug 6 2009, 20:29)
QUOTE (Hydro_PT @ Aug 6 2009, 19:18)
GTA IV is good, is a great game, but the PC version came too late and with too many problems: no wonder it didn't sell that good.

There is no excuse to steal this game, if people think it is a bad port then why are they stealing it to play it then ? The fact is with each release of the PC version of a GTA sales have consistently been lower :-

GTA 3 = 400,000 sold in the US on the PC
GTA VC = 300,000 sold in the US on the PC
GTA SA = 250,000 sold in the US on the PC

GTA 4 = 40,000 sold in the US on the PC as far as we know

So the series got consistently better but sales have steadily declined. People think it is a "free lunch" on the PC, if you steal the PC version then you are doing yourself NO favours. Now from what I can see the only thing keeping the PC in the running at the moment is Europe and Asia.

Anyway this is beside the point, if you steal the PC version of TLaD (when it comes) then don't be surprised when we don't get TBoGT. There is no such thing as a free lunch in this world and Rockstar will be looking at how well the PC version of the DLC does and it will factor into any decision they make regarding the PC format in the future. So before you go and click on that download button just think about that.

I didn't say nothing about stealing the game. I said it didn't sell good, which is a different thing.

There is no excuse to steal ANY game, no matter how bad it is. If you don't agree with its price or something, just don't play it. Or at least be decent and download the game, try it out and if you don't like it, delete it. If you do like it, buy it (I already did this some times, just to be sure the game is worth the money).

Speaking about GTA IV, I said to myself: "I'm going to buy this game as soon as it hits the stores, no matter the price". And I did that, but I was afraid of buying the game because of the tons of problems people were reporting. I was lucky because it worked (and it's working) really good, I can't complain and I love the game, it is worth the money (I wish all games were like this). But imagine you bought the game and it worked like sh*t because Rockstar Toronto did a sh*tty port? Would you be happy to spend 50Ä on a game that you can't play, even though you have decent hardware to run it?

GTA IV didn't sell good but the main cause of that was the problems the game has. Various friends of mine said they would buy this game, but when they saw the problems people was reporting, and the reviews on the net, they decided not to buy it and they spent their money in other games. They didn't download it either. That's how you get bad sales for a game. That was GTA IV's biggest error. Give people a bad and late port, and they won't buy it. They either steal it (which I condone), or they simple don't buy it (specially if they have it on the consoles already).

Of course this is just a theory and we cannot be sure it would be like this, but if the PC version was released at the same time of the console versions, I'm sure it would have sold a lot more copies. Like I said, it came too late and it was a bad port. People was disappointed they couldn't play this game properly, so they didn't buy it (or worse, they download it).

Btw those numbers aren't really accurate. What about the rest of the world? STEAM versions?

I know GTA series on the PC hadn't had the same sales the console versions had. But we always got the games 6 to 9 months later - that's an important thing to take in consideration. But so far it sold very well, otherwise we wouldn't have had GTA Vice City, San Andreas and IV appearing on the PC.

As for TLAD, I'm sure it will come, sooner or later, and I will happily buy it. And I hope it sells well, but I won't count with that, unless Rockstar Toronto solves GTA IV's performance problems.

Drunk Russian 9
  • Drunk Russian 9

    Soldier

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 Nov 2007

#119

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:30 PM

I'm very indifferent to whether or not TLaD will come to PC or not. Frankly, they should worry about fixing the bugs rather than giving us add-ons. I mean honestly, why would someone want an add-on to a game they can't get running?

CharmingCharlie
  • CharmingCharlie

    Proud PC Gamer

  • Members
  • Joined: 23 May 2006

#120

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:43 PM

QUOTE (Drunk Russian 9 @ Aug 6 2009, 21:30)
I'm very indifferent to whether or not TLaD will come to PC or not. Frankly, they should worry about fixing the bugs rather than giving us add-ons. I mean honestly, why would someone want an add-on to a game they can't get running?

Simply because I have had the game running perfectly since launch day, that is why people want the DLC. I love GTA 4 on the PC and haven't had any problems running it whatsoever so naturally I want more.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users