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Creationism or Evolution?

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Irviding
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#1

Posted 04 April 2009 - 02:24 PM Edited by Irviding, 04 April 2009 - 02:27 PM.

What are your beliefs on this?

Creationism is defined as:
QUOTE
Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity


Evolution is defined as:
QUOTE
the sequence of events involved in the evolutionary development of a species or taxonomic group of organisms


I believe in evolution.. There's a difference between believing in god, and completely rejecting proven scientific facts in arrogance for your religion.
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#2

Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:58 PM

"Believe" in evolution?

Evolution is fact.
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#3

Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:04 PM Edited by Mad Tony, 04 April 2009 - 05:10 PM.

QUOTE (nlitement @ Apr 4 2009, 09:58)
"Believe" in evolution?

Evolution is fact.

Not really. There's no proof that evolution is an absolute fact. It is however, the most accepted theory for the origin of life.

Creationism and Evolution are from two different topics though. Creationism covers the creation of the universe and how life came to be while evolution only concerns how life came about, it has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. The big bang theory does, however.

Personally I do believe in the big bang theory. However, I believe that God was behind it. The creation of the world as described in Genesis bares many similarities to the big bang theory if you don't take the words literally (e.g. the 7 days God created the universe isn't literally 7 days, more like millions of years).

As for evolution, I'm undecided. Although I believe that God could've created animals through evolution.

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#4

Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE (nlitement @ Apr 4 2009, 16:58)
"Believe" in evolution?

Evolution is fact.

I agree partially. Evolution is the most commonly accepted theory and the one I believe. I am an atheist so I son't believe in God, therefore I guess I wouldn't be a creationist!

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#5

Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:15 PM

I'm an atheist. I have no religious beliefs whatsoever. So yeah, I believe in evolution. I find religion a bit too farfetched. Science gives us much more logical explanations as to how the Earth and Humans were created.

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#6

Posted 04 April 2009 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE (Mad Tony @ Apr 4 2009, 17:04)

Personally I do believe in the big bang theory. However, I believe that God was behind it. The creation of the world as described in Genesis bares many similarities to the big bang theory if you don't take the words literally (e.g. the 7 days God created the universe isn't literally 7 days, more like millions of years).

As for evolution, I'm undecided. Although I believe that God could've created animals through evolution.

Maybe The Big Bang was behind God eh?

Anyway, evolution, seeing has it approaches almost empirical levels of proof. Evolution is somewhat observable on a microbial level, bacteria evolves much faster then larger lifeforms would. That is how we continue to get new strains of familiar bacteria. Not that I wouldn't believe in evolution otherwise, but this happens to be pretty much irrefutable.

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#7

Posted 04 April 2009 - 07:34 PM

QUOTE (nlitement @ Apr 4 2009, 11:58)
"Believe" in evolution?

Evolution is fact.

I said ' believe ' because there is really no way to prove it as a fact.

Personally, I think that life and the universe could have begun without the assistance of God (or gods, or whatever), but I also believe there's no reason to think it didn't. Those who claim the Universe and everything in it was created over a six day period 6000 years ago are ignorant and delusional, IMHO, but who knows what a "day" is to an immortal being? It could just as easily be a billion human years! If you look at the Biblical account of Creation as a badly translated metaphor for something that occurred on a scale no Bronze Age tribesman could possibly comprehend, it's actually surprisingly close to what scientists say happened.

Keep in mind, I went from being agnostic to being almost an Atheist.. so I am not some god freak.. just open to a lot of things.

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#8

Posted 04 April 2009 - 07:44 PM

Evolution happens. Period. Humans came from primates obviously as well.

However HOOOW it happens is a different thing. Theories are there to explain facts:

QUOTE
   1. All evolutionary phenomena can be explained in a way consistent with known genetic mechanisms and the observational evidence of naturalists.
   2. Evolution is gradual: small genetic changes, recombination ordered by natural selection. Discontinuities amongst species (or other taxa) are explained as originating gradually through geographical separation and extinction (not saltation).
   3. Selection is overwhelmingly the main mechanism of change; even slight advantages are important when continued. The object of selection is the phenotype in its surrounding environment. The role of genetic drift is equivocal; though strongly supported initially by Dobzhansky, it was downgraded later as results from ecological genetics were obtained.
   4. The primacy of population thinking: the genetic diversity carried in natural populations is a key factor in evolution. The strength of natural selection in the wild was greater than expected; the effect of ecological factors such as niche occupation and the significance of barriers to gene flow are all important.
   5. In palaeontology, the ability to explain historical observations by extrapolation from micro to macro-evolution is proposed. Historical contingency means explanations at different levels may exist. Gradualism does not mean constant rate of change.



I don't understand why people believe in this simple, human, WHITE MALE god who acts just like a human and who's a god pretty much like the ones in Ancient Greece and Rome. A true deity would be way above that, also, it would be dead since it's timeless, it would just.. be there, and do nothing, also it would mean that everything that happens or will ever happen or has ever happened is known by this deity hence life is predetermined.

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#9

Posted 04 April 2009 - 07:46 PM

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Maybe they are both correct to some degree ... maybe they are both wrong - nobody knows!

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#10

Posted 04 April 2009 - 08:16 PM

I believe that God created this Earth but not in the way that Genesis portrayed. Therefore Evolution is correct, doesn't disprove that God was behhind it all, but it is fact. There is evidence, fossils and whatnot, and so only a fool would deny it.
Doesn't disprove God, but the 7 day theory is totally allegorical. Just like the tale of the flood, I don't doubt that there was some event, other cultures tell of a massiv flood, and perhaps people sought ways to connect this catastrophe with their own lives. But it doesn't mean that the stories are facts.
Same with Genesis. People had no idea of the facts, everything was unanswered. A world without evolutionary theory, imagine that.
It's almost frightening to envision that level of ignorance.

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#11

Posted 04 April 2009 - 08:17 PM

This seems like a perfect opportunity to introduce my "steady state" theory of everything: nothing ever changes, the universe was not created - it has always existed, and so has everything in it. You may think that today was different from yesterday, but that's just an illusion created by your confused mind in an attempt to rationalize. Both creationism and evolution are lies, damn lies, I tell you. And I have the proof to prove it, but unfortunately I can't share it, because you can't handle the truth. Any takers?

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#12

Posted 04 April 2009 - 09:09 PM

QUOTE (major underscore @ Apr 4 2009, 14:17)
This seems like a perfect opportunity to introduce my "steady state" theory of everything: nothing ever changes, the universe was not created - it has always existed, and so has everything in it. You may think that today was different from yesterday, but that's just an illusion created by your confused mind in an attempt to rationalize. Both creationism and evolution are lies, damn lies, I tell you. And I have the proof to prove it, but unfortunately I can't share it, because you can't handle the truth. Any takers?

So introduce a radical theory with no backing?

That's like saying I can fix everything, but I can't do it for you because it's to awesome.

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#13

Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE (major underscore @ Apr 4 2009, 14:17)
This seems like a perfect opportunity to introduce my "steady state" theory of everything: nothing ever changes, the universe was not created - it has always existed, and so has everything in it. You may think that today was different from yesterday, but that's just an illusion created by your confused mind in an attempt to rationalize. Both creationism and evolution are lies, damn lies, I tell you. And I have the proof to prove it, but unfortunately I can't share it, because you can't handle the truth. Any takers?

I believe calculus is defined as the study of change, and it has a series of logical explanations behind it. Would you care to debunk these explanations, or would you rather just bestow us with your awesome opinion and hightail it out of here without any support for your theory? Oh wait, you already did that.

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#14

Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:26 PM

As an Atheist that is no longer open to the concept of Religion, I personally believe in the theory of Evolution. However, will the
the man made concept of Religion ever die out, due to many people beginning to open their eyes to other, more widely proven theories?
Religion ("Creationism") does what it's supposed to do, it gives people hope, a reason to exist and a supposed "eternal, blissful afterlife".

Now, in the modern world, Evolution has become widely accepted by many (including myself) as renowned fact. However, due to geographical location, traditional and even social implications, we won't see a world without Religion for a substantial period of time, at least in my opinion.
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#15

Posted 05 April 2009 - 12:34 AM Edited by major underscore, 05 April 2009 - 12:39 AM.

QUOTE (Ronnyboy @ Apr 4 2009, 21:09)
QUOTE (major underscore @ Apr 4 2009, 14:17)
This seems like a perfect opportunity to introduce my "steady state" theory of everything: nothing ever changes, the universe was not created - it has always existed, and so has everything in it. You may think that today was different from yesterday, but that's just an illusion created by your confused mind in an attempt to rationalize. Both creationism and evolution are lies, damn lies, I tell you. And I have the proof to prove it, but unfortunately I can't share it, because you can't handle the truth. Any takers?

So introduce a radical theory with no backing?

That's like saying I can fix everything, but I can't do it for you because it's to awesome.

Is that a 'yes'?

QUOTE (Vercetti21 @ Apr 4 2009, 22:15)
I believe calculus is defined as the study of change, and it has a series of logical explanations behind it. Would you care to debunk these explanations, or would you rather just bestow us with your awesome opinion and hightail it out of here without any support for your theory? Oh wait, you already did that.

My excellent theory does also have a series of logical explanations behind it, but my theory's series is a lot better. Since those logical explanations are so much better, it's not my burden to prove the alternative so called "theories" wrong. I'm sure you see the logic in this.

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#16

Posted 05 April 2009 - 12:42 AM

Hmmm ... everyone makes excellent points.

But after reading all the evidence I'm leaning towards ... Creationism!

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#17

Posted 05 April 2009 - 03:48 AM

Evolution and Creationism are Apples and Oranges. One should not be compared to another.

Evolution is a model that we know works. Creation is a belief that an intelligent creator is responsible for life. These two are neither contradictory nor come from the same category of things. Evolution can happen according to an intelligent design, even when you account for Natural Selection.

More importantly, Evolution simply works as a scientific method. Its validity is not even discussed. It doesn't matter if it is valid if it works. We have nothing that makes better predictions. Creationism, in contrast, makes no predictions whatsoever. It doesn't need to. It's not designed to predict what's going to happen or what's going to be found. It simply attempts to explain what happened in the past, and that is beyond the scope of sciences.
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#18

Posted 05 April 2009 - 06:04 AM

Though I was baptized as a Christian, I personally believe that evolution is the origin of this...this...universe.

Many religious factors contribute to Creation: Jesus Christ, the 7 Days of Creation, the Apostolic Bible. Meanwhile, everything Science can explain is behind Evolution. The Natural Selection, Big Bang Theory, etc. Both sides seem to have the best proofs and evidences.

But think about it: Do you think that the Universe was created in a span of just 6 days? that humans existed a say after the dinosaurs went extinct? that the sun was formed 5 days before humans stepped and ventured the land? I don't think so. That's full of fanciful make-up stories of opeople who edited and revised the Holy Bible.

Evolution, on the other hand, had so many facts and evidences that can prove it and be used as a broom to sweep these unhealthful religious mockings.

And a question: If there's really a God, who "gave" life to us, woud he save mankind at the time the world near it's fiery death (being fried on the red-giant sun) 5 billion years from now?

Evolution pwns.


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#19

Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:22 AM

the only way i can understand people still believing in creation
after all of this evidence on evolution is the childish "la la la im not listening" -method.

what really shocks me is that 60some percent of americans believe in creation still.
you might ask what is so weird about that. but in finland only old people and the members
of the jesus fan club believe in creation.

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#20

Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:36 AM

It's hard to detail what you believe when they're relating to two different subjects. I personally believe in both to some extent.

As a baptised Christian (and an Agnostic, but I do have faith) I believe that God did create the universe, and that there is an eternal deity presiding over us. However, I don't think that his existence can be proven, and I have no idea whether or not he actually exists or not, but that's not the point. The point is that I think he did create the Earth and the Universe, with the term "days" being used in Genesis as metaphor for perhaps billions of years.

Evolution has more to do with the physical advancements of a particular species, and how one species develops into another. It has nothing to do with the creation of the Earth whatsoever.

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#21

Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:12 PM

I think most creationists lack an understanding of evolution and believe that it also requires faith to some degree. If anyone here has seen "The Way of the Master" Vs. "Rational Response Squad" debate you'll know what I'm talking about, you can catch it on YouTube. In it The Way of the Master presented evolution as a flawed concept without actually understanding what a theory was. They also accepted micro-evolution as a fact (which it is) but denied that macro-evolution was even possible without realizing that they're one in the same but just over a different period of time. You can't walk a mile without walking a meter first. And then they made the infamous transitional-species comment, which proved beyond doubt they had no understanding of evolution at all.

Their entire argument against evolution was based of flaws like this, they had no idea what they were talking about. I'm very confident that even though they quoted from the Origin of Species they never actually read the book, they, like most creationists, got their info from other creationists. Anyone who preached anything other than intelligent design wasn't even worth listening to.

I think the only reason evolution is controversial is that it shows nature didn't need to be guided to create us, it explains how we could have come to be without a God. Before Darwin we were evidence of God, if you needed proof you looked out the window at the vastness of life. They thought that there had to be a creator, but now we know otherwise and [most] people have altered their beliefs to suit what they can't deny.

It seems that the more science advances the more obscure this God gets.

QUOTE (K^2)
Evolution can happen according to an intelligent design, even when you account for Natural Selection.
Yes but that it not what creationists argue, they believe that we were created as is by God. We know that to be false, we know there are other possibilities and based on evidence evolution appears to be the most likely.

Of course evolution could have been guided but it doesn't need to be for it to work.

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#22

Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:28 AM

You'd have to be plain stupid to think that people are made by God creating you, in my opinion. Haven't they heard of sex?

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#23

Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:51 AM

Creationism is arrogance.
I know some kids who object the fact that dinosuars ever existed, and they dont even acept the extinction of the Tasmanian devil!
So im all for Evolution.
Creationism is something we believed when we were kids, or when civilisation was allot simpler!

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#24

Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:23 PM

QUOTE (Stefan. @ Apr 6 2009, 05:28)
You'd have to be plain stupid to think that people are made by God creating you, in my opinion. Haven't they heard of sex?

When I said "we were created as is by God" I meant "we" as in the human race, not me and you individually.

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#25

Posted 07 April 2009 - 01:30 AM

QUOTE (Seachmall @ Apr 7 2009, 06:23)
QUOTE (Stefan. @ Apr 6 2009, 05:28)
You'd have to be plain stupid to think that people are made by God creating you, in my opinion. Haven't they heard of sex?

When I said "we were created as is by God" I meant "we" as in the human race, not me and you individually.

Oh, okay... right.

I'm just saying that there are still some religios zealots out there who think that God created each of us individually, and I'm just saying that that's a crock of sh*t.

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#26

Posted 07 April 2009 - 02:55 AM

As far as I'm concerned, creationism shouldn't even be brought into the equation. It holds no scientific merit. There is no empirical evidence. When it comes down to it, creationism relies heavily on faith, which in my eyes, just isn't good enough when it comes down to a scientific discussion.

Personally, the idea of an all-hearing, all-seeing, omniscient, immortal being even existing is just ridiculous to me. Let alone, that being creating everything we know, but whatever.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again: evolution is a proven fact. It happens. There are no ifs or buts about it. Evolution is a fact. It's as proven as the effects of gravity are despite the fact the ~theory~ of gravity itself is far from understood.

To hear evolution being disputed is just beyond me. I think the problem lies within some people not knowing the difference between: law, theory and fact in scientific context.

Tl;dr: Evolutionary theory. There's isn't any other scientific theory explaining our existence that has anywhere near as much reasoning and empirical evidence behind it, nor is as widely accepted amongst the scientific community as the best explanation for how we exist.

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#27

Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE (Seachmall @ Apr 5 2009, 12:12)
QUOTE (K^2)
Evolution can happen according to an intelligent design, even when you account for Natural Selection.
Yes but that it not what creationists argue, they believe that we were created as is by God. We know that to be false, we know there are other possibilities and based on evidence evolution appears to be the most likely.

Of course evolution could have been guided but it doesn't need to be for it to work.

Doesn't matter.

Lets say a world was created yesterday. You were created with all your memories. How would you know? You would not. You'd believe that you existed for many years.

If a supreme being decided to create Earth 6,000 years ago with all the geological formations, artifacts of older tribes of men, petrified remains of older creatures, and all the animals with various similarities suggesting relationship, you wouldn't be able to tell that from a system that has naturally evolved. And who are we to say that a supreme being capable of that does not exist?

Creationism states that this is what happened. Alright, who cares? There is no observable difference, so then it doesn't matter which actually happened. If one choses to believe that the world was created all at once, fine. It might seem like an arbitrary sort of thing to believe, but so is believing anything else. It is no more silly to believe that all living things were created than it is to believe that they have evolved.

In contrast, evolution still works. We can still examine remains and build a taxonomy based on it, making predictions about modern species that agree with observation. It doesn't matter if Earth was created all at once. The model still works. Evolution works regardless of whether Creationism is a fact or a fairy tail. And belief in Creationism can exist without contradiction regardless of whether life was created or evolved. We cannot know which actually happened, so belief in either is equivalently arbitrary regardless of any evidence for Evolution you might dig up. It only supports the model, but proves nothing about what actually happened.

If you have to believe in something, Creationism is a perfectly valid choice. It's arbitrary, but so is any other belief. Just pick one. And if you are looking for a model that makes valid predictions, you cannot go wrong with Evolution. It has been verified to work in many, many situations. The two cannot be compared on equal footing, because they are entirely different categories of things. One does not contradict the other. One does not replace the other.

Asking whether one believes in Evolution or Creationism is absurd. It's not an either/or thing. It cannot be one.

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#28

Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:41 PM

But where's the justification for belief? If we are to be rational about this we cannot accept every possibility as probably true as that makes infinite things probable, which is contradictory in itself. Of course it is possible but we should base our beliefs on probability, not possibility. When you take reason out of it everything loses value, and science becomes pointless.

Creationism is not equal to evolution on a scientific, logical or rational basis. It is belief without reason (i.e. faith).

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#29

Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:28 AM

Nobody says they are equal. I've been trying to prove that they are things from completely different categories. How do you get equal from that?

What's your justification to reject Creationism? There is just as much justification to reject it as there is to accept it. Precisely none. All your evidence is based on the system that Creationism essentially assumes to be doctored by a higher being. There is no way to reject such a statement.

Now, if you are going for a specific story of creation, then yeah, it's equivalent to any other creation story, and therefore is incredibly unlikely to be the correct one. But if you simply compare a suggestion that a higher being created everything, including archaeological record, and the suggestion that a higher being was not involved at all, these two are absolutely equivalent. One cannot be said to be more likely than the other, because we have no basis for estimating likelihood of a higher being of some sort existing.

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#30

Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:06 AM

QUOTE (Stefan. @ Apr 6 2009, 05:28)
You'd have to be plain stupid to think that people are made by God creating you, in my opinion. Haven't they heard of sex?

The people that believe in this sh*t don't get sex. They get home schooled into iscolation and become jevoah's witnesses




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