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Police Brutality

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TonyResta
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#1

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:14 PM

To start this off, i live in Lugano, Switzerland (Italian speaking region), it's population is 150'000.

Police brutality just happened right outside my block! We have an underground nightclub next to our tower block and every Friday it's always the same sh*t, you get the usual drunks getting in fights, police come, arrest them and take them away.

Well, not this time! I was watching TV in the living room and i could hear shouting, i didn't bother looking out of the window because it's always the same thing, but this time he sounded like he was in pain, so i jogged out to the balcony to have a look. All i see is one guy on the floor and 4 police officers with nightsticks litterally beating the sh*t out of him!

I knew from the beginning that it wasn't normal because unless you have done something extremely serious, the police wouldn't normally attack you like that, and certainly not 4 on 1.

Anyway, the guy then gets up and starts taking the piss out of the officers, what happens next amazed me as i have never seen it happen in real life. A copper takes out his gun and i thought any minute now all hell was gonna break loose. The officer then shoots, which i then realise it was a tazer gun, all i saw then was the guy rattling and screamin on the floor under the pouring rain (its pissing it down right now). But it continued, for a whole 20 seconds! After that 2 police cars came and after a few more kicks and punches to the drunk, they finally decided to take him in.

It might not be much for some people who live in much bigger and more dangerous cities like London or Milan, but for a city of this size and not to mention the country itself, i thought it was quite bad, but cool at the same time.

I definately know i'll be watching my mouth with the cops from now on biggrin.gif

Discuss some of your experiences too on police brutality, if you've ever seen it or what you think of it.

Wightboy
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#2

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:15 PM

wouldnt imagine that would happen in switzerland
I lived there for around a year and it seemed like such a placid place

TonyResta
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#3

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:24 PM

QUOTE (Wightboy @ Feb 6 2009, 23:15)
wouldnt imagine that would happen in switzerland
I lived there for around a year and it seemed like such a placid place

You have to live in one of the cities like Lugano, Luzern, Geneva, Basel, Bern and Zurich to see a rougher side of Switzerland, now i'm not sure how those other cities are compared to Lugano, but from my 5 years here in Lugano, it's definately not nice at all. I moved here to get away from the crime in England, only to find it being more dangerous here! Oh well, i'm pretty used to it now biggrin.gif

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#4

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:29 PM

Were there any news reports on it?

TonyResta
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#5

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE (SaintJimmy @ Feb 6 2009, 23:29)
Were there any news reports on it?

That's another thing about Switzerland, the bastards keep things like these hush hush and are never mentioned on the news, unless it's something like a stabbing or a shooting, this could however make it on the news tomorrow after they investigate what's happened, although they're bound to let the officers go without doing anything to them, it's always like that.

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#6

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:41 PM

Police brutality can be indeed alarming at times, i remember once at a footie game when some sh*t was hitting the fan my mate was trapped at the front next to the police and one screamed at him "Get back!" and he said he couldn't and was whacked on the elbow with the truncheon.

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#7

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:49 PM

From a rozzer point of view, I'd advise folk not to take things on face value. How violent was the male prior to you seeing the coppers hitting him? He may have been extremely violent, perhaps even attacking another officer - but of course, that wasn't seen, was it?

Maybe the police were told prior to arrival that he had a weapon - I've used force prior to search when I've got good grounds that the suspect may be in possession of a weapon. It happens.

Have you also taken into account the males physical size? The hostility of the crowd? The numbers in question: was it '4 Vs 1', or '4 Vs 1 + 30'. Fights outside pubs and clubs can easily turn sour for the rozzers very quickly, especially if heavily outnumbered and if the club is a hotspot for trouble (as you've stated it was). A show of force is sometimes necessary.

Not saying that the officers actions were right or wrong, but I certainly won't condemn them based on a single outlook of an incident.

It's far too easy to shout police brutality nowadays and have the world jump up and look, without being provided with a full picture.

TonyResta
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#8

Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:56 PM

QUOTE (Swarz @ Feb 6 2009, 23:49)
From a rozzer point of view, I'd advise folk not to take things on face value. How violent was the male prior to you seeing the coppers hitting him? He may have been extremely violent, perhaps even attacking another officer - but of course, that wasn't seen, was it?

Maybe the police were told prior to arrival that he had a weapon - I've used force prior to search when I've got good grounds that the suspect may be in possession of a weapon. It happens.

Have you also taken into account the males physical size? The hostility of the crowd? The numbers in question: was it '4 Vs 1', or '4 Vs 1 + 30'. Fights outside pubs and clubs can easily turn sour for the rozzers very quickly, especially if heavily outnumbered and if the club is a hotspot for trouble (as you've stated it was). A show of force is sometimes necessary.

Not saying that the officers actions were right or wrong, but I certainly won't condemn them based on a single outlook of an incident.

It's far too easy to shout police brutality nowadays and have the world jump up and look, without being provided with a full picture.

I dont know for a fact what happened before i saw the thing i saw but by the way he was screaming, you could 100% tell that he was drunk. But i see what your saying, the residents and the police know this club for it's violence and there were around 50 people outside clogging up the streets, but wouldnt beating the guy like that provoke some of his friends into defending him?

Also, was the tazer really necessary, they were in 4 to begin with and 7 when the cars came, cmon! But anyway, seeing as i dont know the full story i cant criticize them.

p.s. Whilst hitting the guy, he tried to hide under an oncoming car and the police then whacked 3-4 times on the vehicle to make him reverse, surely that cant be legal, i mean the oncoming vehicle didn't know what was going to happen, and now he has a dented hood.

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#9

Posted 06 February 2009 - 11:03 PM

Well, speaking to firearms officers recently, tazers can often be the favourable option when dealing with violent persons. Whereas it may take 20-30 baton strikes to subdue a person, they're likely to cause serious injury - you're looking at broken bones and such.

With a tazer, there are no lasting injuries* and you are instantly able to subdue a violent person. Perhaps the officers decided that baton strikes were failing to have the desired effect and a tazer would subdue him quicker and with lesser injuries.

* - Yes, I know tazers are controversial, and the guy could've had heart problems etc etc. I'm just providing the theory. I'm not armed with or trained to use a tazer, so don't chew me out on this.

Re: the damage to the car, I can't comment on law in other countries. In the UK, we are permitted under PACE to use reasonable force in the execution of an arrest. If this were in the UK, that officer would have to justify that use of force and record the damage caused. That driver would be able to claim back off the police.

Justification would be quite simple - The male was crawling towards an oncoming vehicle and I had the belief he was intending to crawl beneath it, which I reasonably believed could result in serious injury or death. As such, I shouted at the driver and hit the bonnet of his car and told him to stop and reverse backwards to prevent any harm to the male on the floor (see attached PROP-DAM report).

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#10

Posted 06 February 2009 - 11:09 PM

There's a tendency for the police force to overdo a situation or make it in to something bigger than it is so they, themselves can feel as if they are doing something more important. They forget they're neighbourhood watch and tend to think of themselves as urban army or Harry Callahan. Causes a hell of a lot of problems when you've got someone who wouldn't pass an Army induction test roaming the streets in the mind frame that they're the next Urban Rambo.

My ex flatmate was in the police force (firearms whatever). After getting to know he and his friends, I'd suggest that's why a large number of people actually sign up for the police. It's that boy zone lifestyle of the army without the danger that comes with it. The trouble is, they'll make the danger up and someone gets a beating. Consequently, that friend of mine, he didn't make the cut for the armed forces.

But then if we're honest, which one of us wouldn't make themselves in to Harry Callahan if they could afford to do so.

TonyResta
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#11

Posted 06 February 2009 - 11:17 PM

Tomorrow night or next Thursday or Friday, i'll see if i can film the usual arrests, just incase it gets tense like today.

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#12

Posted 07 February 2009 - 12:24 AM

I'm with NWA. F*ck tha police.

copperwire93
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#13

Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:34 AM

Those police might be jerk! Suddenly hit civilian car what kind of police is that?

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#14

Posted 07 February 2009 - 02:04 AM

Haha whatever, good on them.

If it was four normal blokes trying to stop the guy from been a f*ckwit, he'd probably just shut up before they kicked the sh*t out of him. This guy probably thought since they were cops he could jaw off/get physical because "f*ck da police" and all that.

Instead he got his ass handed to him by 4 guys with big sticks, and then tried to continue been smart afterwards and got his ass fried.

Hilarious if you ask me.

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#15

Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:41 AM Edited by GTA-IV-Master, 07 February 2009 - 11:49 AM.

Lugano eh? Haha, i've had a bad experience in Lugano once.

I went there with my school once for our trip through south Switzerland, i got mugged at the train station by two big men and on of my friends got mugged and beaten at the same time whilst we accidently wondered into one of Lugano's residential districts, they didn't doo anything to me though, hell, they didn't even run away like most muggers do, i guess it was a normal thing biggrin.gif I know i aint going to Lugano anymore though xD. I cant remember the name of the zone though.

EDIT: The name of the district i think is Molino Nuovo, it's in the north innercity part of Lugano.

nlitement
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#16

Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:47 AM

So Switzerland isn't the ideal utopia I always imagined it to be?

Or is that just a Lugano thing?

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#17

Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:53 AM

"I definately know i'll be watching my mouth with the cops from now on"

And you wonder why they do it?

He probably deserved it.

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#18

Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (nlitement @ Feb 7 2009, 11:47)
So Switzerland isn't the ideal utopia I always imagined it to be?

Or is that just a Lugano thing?

I really don't know about the rest of Switzerland, although i heard Geneva and Zurich were pretty bad. But i can safely say that Lugano isnt the typical Swiss image if you catch my drift. I live in North London and even i found Lugano to be pretty bad. Also the city is only 130000 i think in population, immagine what i would be like when it grows bigger, i think the council really need to sort things out there. The fact that tony-resta said that the Swiss news doesn't report things as they should clearly means that most portraits of Swiss cities are probably a lie, hell, on brochures it says Lugano is a small, quite lakeside town, haha, yeah, whatever.

TonyResta
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#19

Posted 07 February 2009 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE
Lugano eh? Haha, i've had a bad experience in Lugano once.

I went there with my school once for our trip through south Switzerland, i got mugged at the train station by two big men and on of my friends got mugged and beaten at the same time whilst we accidently wondered into one of Lugano's residential districts, they didn't doo anything to me though, hell, they didn't even run away like most muggers do, i guess it was a normal thing  biggrin.gif   I know i aint going to Lugano anymore though xD. I cant remember the name of the zone though.

EDIT: The name of the district i think is Molino Nuovo, it's in the north innercity part of Lugano.


I live in Molino Nuovo lol.gif

QUOTE
So Switzerland isn't the ideal utopia I always imagined it to be?

Or is that just a Lugano thing?


It is if you have money, but facts are, 43% of Lugano's population ARE FOREIGNERS! That's alot, and the 57% of Swiss people are the ones who get a good job and have the money to go and live in some huge villa in the mountains. People like me though have to live with innercity low wealth life with crap jobs in a crappy little appartment!

QUOTE
"I definately know i'll be watching my mouth with the cops from now on"

And you wonder why they do it?

He probably deserved it.


I didnt mean it like that, ive never even gotten into trouble with the police, what i meant was that people definately need to think twice before they say something, that's all

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#20

Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:11 PM

Police used to be alot worse in liverpool, back in the 1980s the city erupted into riots because local police where hassling the black community. It all started with officers calling a few young black lads "N*ggers" and "Apes" so they battered the officers and pushed their car into a crash barrier. Eventually the whole city was getting smashed up and people where just taking from shops whatever they where fit to carry, police officers had to be brought in from manchester and other areas of the North West. Nowadays we have a special section of the police called the Matrix unit, they deal with areas prone to gun and knife crime and areas where the local kids are being anti social, they do use force but its really to make kids think twice about carrying a gun knowing the matrix will f*ck them for it.

The police who monitor the clubs in town can be pricks though, last year my cousin was out with his mates having a drink when it kicked off with another group of lads and they started fighting. The police stepped in and my cousin got dragged into an alleyway out of sight of the CCTV cameras and 4 officers used a bit of un neccesary force on him and the area around his eye got cut open. He was thrown in a cell for the night, when my uncle came to get him in the morning he recognised the officer who kieran said hit him in the face, apparently my uncle pete used to know them when they were younger. So after our pete give the officer a few 'watch your back' threats the officer came over and apologised to kieran and all was resolved.

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#21

Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:12 PM

QUOTE (PacMaan @ Feb 7 2009, 10:24)
I'm with NWA. F*ck tha police.

Yeah... until you need them, right?

I have had nothing but positive interchanges with cops. They work hard, and it's not always a rewarding job. Cheers to Swarz who lives the life and keeps his people safe.

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#22

Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:19 PM

QUOTE (makeshyft @ Feb 7 2009, 13:12)
QUOTE (PacMaan @ Feb 7 2009, 10:24)
I'm with NWA. F*ck tha police.

Yeah... until you need them, right?

I have had nothing but positive interchanges with cops. They work hard, and it's not always a rewarding job. Cheers to Swarz who lives the life and keeps his people safe.

A guy who works in my place is an ex copper, he is a great fella and has some great stories to tell everyone about his time on the force. He said "im not a police officer to arrest kids for hanging about on street corners or having a joint on the park at night, im a police officer to stop murderers, burgulars, muggars, drug dealers etc from getting away with it, having a joint is a smallish thing compared to shooting people in cold blood".

I have great respect for this man and wish there was more officers just like him, its just a few pricks who think that they are above the local community and can do whatever they wish because of they're badge.

@Paacman You need to have more faith in the police they are only there to help after all.

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#23

Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:22 PM

QUOTE (Quick Stop @ Feb 7 2009, 23:19)
A guy who works in my place is an ex copper, he is a great fella and has some great stories to tell everyone about his time on the force. He said "im not a police officer to arrest kids for hanging about on street corners or having a joint on the park at night, im a police officer to stop murderers, burgulars, muggars, drug dealers etc from getting away with it, having a joint is a smallish thing compared to shooting people in cold blood".

I have great respect for this man and wish there was more officers just like him, its just a few pricks who think that they are above the local community and can do whatever they wish because of they're badge.

Yeah, you nailed it in one.

There are a sh*tload of great cops who live to "serve and protect". Sure, there are a few that abuse this position, but the great cops outweigh the few.

Saying something like "f*ck tha police" just shows you're a feiget and should be locked up.

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#24

Posted 07 February 2009 - 03:18 PM

I understand why alot of people don't like the police in lots of countries across the world. If you compare the British cops to cops in some Asian states, or S. America, you'll find the differences pretty vast. I hear cops in Brazil are just like another street gang. The rules with firearms are vastly different in the US to in the UK. Similarly, across Europe you'll have widely differing styles of policing based on things like differing cultures and criminal justice systems. The BBCs Mark Easton does a nice little article here which is worth the 5 minutes to read.

You'll even get differing policing styles based on the region. How I police in London is vastly different to how a colleague would police in Nottinghamshire, for example. Different area - different kinds of people - different police approach.

So if someone comes out and says 'f*ck da police' or something like that based on their experiences I'll reply 'Fine, but bear in mind police are as different across the world as the people that occupy it'.

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#25

Posted 07 February 2009 - 03:33 PM

I'm not really sure what to think of the police, a lot of them are dicks but you need them. The problem is that the amount of manpower that gets wasted enforcing victimless crimes bothers me, although legislators are often to blame there for making those laws. I like cops who don't give a sh*t about the petty things, I'd rather have cops who deal with violent crime and theft and just ignore everything else. The problem is that there are so many cops who are just total pricks, and I have a number of anecdotes to support this claim. The majority of these officers are from the narcotics enforcement end of the department and they all think their job is super important.

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#26

Posted 07 February 2009 - 05:09 PM Edited by 1ManArmy, 07 February 2009 - 05:13 PM.

The polcie in my country are really terrible. Once, a video of a woman forced to strip naked and squat and stand repeatedly while holding her ears by the police was released into the internet. Instead of apologizing when it came out in the local newspaper, they focused on saying that it's a against the law to film interrogations and things that are happening in the police station. Talk about f*ck. My country's police used to be really good until the corrupted government f*cked around with them and used them to do their dirty jobs. Of course, it's not so bad to the point where it's not safe at all, but bribery is something that happens often when the police stops your car though you weren't speeding.

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#27

Posted 07 February 2009 - 05:17 PM

Now, now, let's not criticise police brutality offhand.
Sometimes a certain ammount of vigilantism, even commited by pre-existing police, can prevent crime.
Now, they smack people around or shoot Brazillians seven times in the head. That's pretty bad right? Hurting innocent people.
But let's just say that they're harming some filthy addict or hippie? What if the police are beating down the kind of people who turn nice streets and towns into a hotbed of immorality and vice?
Suddenly we're not hearing objections.
Authority must always be an iron fist inside a silk glove. A message needs to be sent to some of the dregs. And if this message is delivered then who cares about the method?
But when we get police maltreating minorities then there's a problem. But it seems to be the common problem with any kind of power. No one can be fully trusted to wield it.

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#28

Posted 07 February 2009 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Typhus @ Feb 7 2009, 17:17)
Now, now, let's not criticise police brutality offhand.
Sometimes a certain ammount of vigilantism, even commited by pre-existing police, can prevent crime.
Now, they smack people around or shoot Brazillians seven times in the head. That's pretty bad right? Hurting innocent people.
But let's just say that they're harming some filthy addict or hippie? What if the police are beating down the kind of people who turn nice streets and towns into a hotbed of immorality and vice?
Suddenly we're not hearing objections.
Authority must always be an iron fist inside a silk glove. A message needs to be sent to some of the dregs. And if this message is delivered then who cares about the method?
But when we get police maltreating minorities then there's a problem. But it seems to be the common problem with any kind of power. No one can be fully trusted to wield it.

I imagine there is a certain level of compassion a person is supposed to have. I can't honestly support cops beating the sh*t out of junkies just because they are junkies, brutality has no place in our society from anybody, including the police. What kind of message does that send to the public? Find something morally objectionable and you can go ahead and destroy it?

Police need to remain inside the boundaries they are given, roughing people up to teach a lesson is generally outside this boundary. You'll notice the more impoverished and less civilized the area, the more police seem to go by the Typhus method of policing. For example, I remember reading about how foreign advisers would try to get police to follow proper procedure, after seeing things like muggers getting hacked to death by machetes from the police instead of arresting them.

Most importantly, morality cannot and should not be enforced, as morality varies based on certain people. I'm sure there are uninformed people who wouldn't mind someone busting my skull open over smoking marijuana, because 'junkies' are bad.

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#29

Posted 08 February 2009 - 04:00 PM

Had a sh*t Saturday night at work dealing with drunken pricks left, right and centre. I swear they're getting worse. They show you absolutely zero decency. I'm on the street, clearly dealing with an incident in the local kebab shop. I've locked the front door. Pishead comes up to me -

"Let me into the f*cking shop."
"1. Watch your language please mate. 2. I'm dealing with an incident. They're closed at the mo.
"I said let me into the f*cking shop now."
"Fella, I asked you to stop swearing, now walk away now before you get in trouble.
"Aright, aright. I'm just so f*cking hungry you f*ck. I wanna f*cking eat. I'm dying here".
"*sigh*"

(that's all word-for-word by the way).

Unfortunately, at this stage we were low on officers, you've got calls coming in all over the place, an officer has been seriously assaulted on a neighbouring borough and we're sending officers to assist. It's just me and my colleague. We've got 5 inside the shop, and several outside. If things go tits-up, we're screwed.

I probably would've strongly considered tazer usage in this situation if I had them. I shouldn't have to say 'please' and 'thankyou' to drunks who are f'ing and blinding at me on the street. It should be a single warning, and then they can reap the whirlwind.

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#30

Posted 08 February 2009 - 04:14 PM

People are right arseholes especially when drunk, its amazing that most officers dont kick 7 shades of sh*te out of them.




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