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The illusion of a living breathing city

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RanCorX3
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#151

Posted 20 December 2008 - 09:50 AM

someone has way too much free time.

$3@N
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#152

Posted 20 December 2008 - 09:54 AM

wOW John Lee.

Not been racist or anything, but you do have to thing so much like a Asian? confused.gif

Not everything in the gaming world (forget about RL because your obviously dont have one and troll these forums) is PERFECT. I suggest you go back to your world where the Games and Real Life are just as complex, go jack yourself back into the matrix yawn.gif

I realized this game was essentially 'completed' a year ago, then the PS3 port held the console launch up by a good 6 months, so by assuming R* had been working on the game for 3-4 years its MAD to expect them to have a environment system like Stalker's Alife or Sims series.

This game feels rushed, hopefully GTA 5, the next "Next-Gen" R* game will have a truely dynamic memory sandbox environment.

But to expect that sort of game now is crazy, to you realise the amount of ram (10gb, cpu (5ghz+ Oct core) and hdd space (20gb+) that would take up!?

Nebby_99
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#153

Posted 20 December 2008 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE ($3@N @ Dec 20 2008, 20:54)
Not been racist or anything, but you do have to thing so much like a Asian?  confused.gif

Man, way to embarrass our country... mercie_blink.gif

Vanillainy
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#154

Posted 20 December 2008 - 11:08 AM

What a tit, congrats on making an essay about the obvious. icon14.gif

Stardog
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#155

Posted 20 December 2008 - 11:28 AM

Funniest post in a while. Absolutely ridiculous biggrin.gif

Engioc
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#156

Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:03 PM Edited by Engioc, 20 December 2008 - 12:10 PM.

QUOTE (johnlee @ Dec 18 2008, 19:43)
One of the things that I love about games like GTAIV is its "immersion" and atmosphere. The breathing, living, interactive city/world really appeals to me. Instead of a game like PMDG where all you do is fly realistic airliner simulations, or Crysis where all you do is shoot and look at pretty graphics, or GRID Racer where all you do is drive, Ship Simulator etc you get the point... GTAIV is an all-around game that includes a little of everything

EDIT: People asking what is the point of my thread (and you have so I am updating..) should read threads of this nature:

" Crysis doesn't have a virtual city which is a bustling metropolis. If they had made Crysis in a city of the scale of the one in GTA4 and everything played smoothed and looked that good then I would be impressed."


http://www.gtaforums...ic=385601&st=40

http://www.gtaforums...entry1058781979


GTAIV is an all-around game that includes a little of everything.. It is like a jack of all trades but a master of none. (no expert specialization in any one area) But I like a game that ties it all together and puts it into one coherent comprehensive package even if its just a start..

But after playing around with the files on the GTAIV PC version I realized something. R* is an expert magician that is very good at creating the ILLUSION of a living breathing city and sell us the grandeur based on an elaborately and well done smokes and mirrors system.

GTAIV Liberty City is essentially a blank and empty city with no cars, no pedestrians and no actions or events.
After tweaking the files I figured it out myself... There are and I repeat there are no "hundreds and hundreds" of cars in LC and no "thousands of civilians and pedestrians" on the streets of Liberty City.  If you have ever seen the movie "the 13th floor" you will by now know EXACTLY what I am talking about...

In fact there is NOTHING at all in Liberty City EXCEPT a radius that surrounds YOU the PLAYER and inside this limited and restricted "bubble" that follows you wherever you go there are cars and peds that "materialize" and Pop-in just outside of the boundary of this radius ... WHen they drive outside of this invisible boundary or when you relocate to a different area of the city and effectively remove them from your "bubble" they are recycled and removed from the game as well... There are NO CARS, NO PEDS, NO NOTHING outside of this bubble radius and in fact at ANY GIVEN MOMENT Liberty City is 99.99% EMPTYNESS!!!

When you kill a old lady there are no cops that get into cop cars and drive from their police stations to chase after you.. What happens is a "cop car" spawns right outside of the preset radius (probably like 300ft or something) and then drives towards you... IDEALLY the copcar spawns when you are not looking (camera view) at him so as to maintain the ILLUSION... or he spawns just beyond your line of sight across from the closest building etc... and then the copcar DRIVES towards you and then when the copcar gets to within 50ft of you "IT" spawns the actual flesh and bones COP-person within the car that is supposed to be driving the car.....

Lets say you drive REALLY fast and lose the cops. Once you LOSE him he is GONE for good. That cop/copcar INSTANCE is erased from the game and never to be seen again. Once he is outside of your bubble zone he disappears and vanishes and quickly as he came into existence...

The point is people in LC don't live their lives and blah blah blah... THEY DON"T EXIST! They have no separate existence apart of being a prop and playing the part and being called in and acting like they are real on a LOCAL level only to the extend of providing cars and people and creating the illusion of an "interactive, immersive, real and living breathing city"....

When in fact it is a dead, lonely, empty, pointless and event less city and only 0.01% of the whole map has any action at any point in time... and even THAT is done on-the-fly and changes are not maintained...


=============UPDATE BELOW=======================================================

Okay people I realize it is impossible and quite pointless to have those thousands of peds and cars in the city being rendered and all in real time..   But we should AT LEAST have probability density matrix and a functional (not atomic) representation of calculating the most likely events (accidents, murders, fights) that would happen THROUGHOUT the city WITHOUT the engine having to render it, and without the game actually dedicating resources to spawning these characters. Currently there is NO such thing, the whole city (absent our own BUBBLE) is EMPTY with not even a prediction/probability calculation of what all should be happening in different parts and regions while we are not physically present.

Also, why is there no system of caching interactions with peds/cops/cars and having them being saved to a cache file on the HDD when they leave our "bubble" and dematerialized and bring back those attributes and changes and our history of interactions the next time we meet inside the "bubble" are they are "rematerialized"? EXAMPLE: Say we get into a fight with  a cop and hurt or injury him badly and cripple his leg and damage his car...  Say we RUN away fast and he is outside our bubble, so the game still "erases" him from rendering and from system ram/memory as before, but this time just before recycling him the game saves a cache of his attributes/changed attributes to a file on the hard drive, so the NEXT time we bump into him again and he reenters our Bubble/zone/radius he is rematerialized with the same attributes as we last saw him with the crumbled car and damaged knee etc!!!

Another example, say we are stalking a hot chick and we stalk her for "hours" but we are not careful and get hit by a car. By the time we get up she may have gotten around across the corner and then the game "got rid of her" and "she" is gone forever! When the game erases people to save memory why can they not incorporate a something like a 5minute system where it caches to harddrive and remembers all the NPCs that it erased during the last five minute period (their health level, location, direction and heading, etc) and whenever we SHOULD cross paths again (say I turn the corner and expect to see her again) she is rematerialized just before I turn the corner???

Basically and what I am saying is that our interactions and changes in the game do not "stick" and are forgotten and erased and recycled VERY soon after.. What is the point of a sandbox environment if the sand doesn't keep its shape and doesn't remember our changes? What if every time you built a sand castle and it disappears the moment you look away from it? In the END how does GTAIV differ CATEGORICALLY from any other game? How is it in any way a living breathing city when the interactions are not even saved and nothing you do matters one way or another outside of your 100ft bubble and 30 second memory span of the game?  

And I repeat : Why is there no system of caching interactions with peds/cops/cars and having them being saved to a cache file on the HDD when they leave our "bubble" and dematerialized and bring back those attributes and changes and our history of interactions the next time we meet inside the "bubble" are they are "rematerialized"?  This would solve two things:

1. It would emulate a "real city" from a functional (instead of atomic) level and increase the REALISM because it is simulating a embodied city reather than a simple smokes and mirrors sytem

2. Since cars, peds, actions are still taken offscreen and recycled once they exit our personal bubble and only the changed attributes are "remembered" and cached to a file on the harddrive to be "reapplied" the next time these generic NPC's are spawned according to when the system calculates/predicts we SHOULD meet again, then this totally resolved the memory and cpu cycle issue of rendering, spawning and doing atomic calculations on each of the things in the city...

Conclusion: Implementation of a system like I mentioned above will not take significantly more cpu cycles or ram usage and will only result in a margin performance hit but increase the "alive immersing factor" by orders of magnitude... NPCs, Cars and other objects are still being recycled and erased from Ram and CPU once they leave our boundary, but the different is the changes (like a dented car, or a hurt ped) are saved and cached to a file in the hdd and reinstatnitated the moment we came back into contact with said NPC/Car/Cop and the changes and attributes are reapplied to the generic NPC being spawned to make them "who they were when we last saw them"


This method is STILL an emulating system, but a much better one that increases the REALISM by orders of magnitude while only taking a very marginal performance hit on modern systems.


As a one last example: right now when we shoot someone and the cops come it is very unrealistic ... They materialized just around the corner....

Now I am NOTTTT suggesting we actually render the cop at the cop station, render him putting on a uniform miles away and driving from the station all the way to our location, BUTTTT we could represent and simulate this from a FUNCTIONAL (rather than atomic) level and increase the realism, embodiemnt, and immserive factor by orders of magnitude!

How? We need not render or spawn the cop or car from the station and waste cpu/ram at all! The game intelligently calculates how long it SHOULD take the cop to arrive based on the time of day, the distance from the station, the current traffic levels, weather (if it is rainy or foggy he will be "predicted" to go slower) etc and the cops shows up in a REALISTIC time frame and all this is calculated from precached probability lookup tables without ahving to waste ram or cpu cycles by actually rendering him or spawning his character and car objects into Ram. SO again the cop will still materialed in much the same way outside the bubble compared to how it is done right now, but because of behind the scenes calculations of predicting /estimating how long it SHOULD take we give him a realistic time or arrival that is calculated on the fly based on current player location, level of crime as reported by peds calling it in, the traffic, the weather system, etc.... This could EASILY by done and will not tax the system but increase realism by a ton!


something like COP_ArrivalTime = LevelofStars * (PlayerDistanceFromClosestsCopStation + TrafficCongestionCoefficent + BadWeatherCoefficent - NumberofPedsReportingIncident)

instead of right now where it is the equalivent of COP_ArrivalTime = as soon as you can spawn one





======My last update to this post========================================



I am getting tired of people making excuses for R* saying it is all for our benefit of future proof... I have the following remarks to make about "future proof"

why I recently discovered that the PC version of GTAIV has a built in 20ft cap on rendering peds and drivers in CARS??? Even on the most power system today with all settings maxed out in the PC version of GTAIV peds and drivers in cars don't appear until you are as close as 20 feet away from them!!!! And there seems to be no way around this!!!

http://www.gtaforums...howtopic=385426


SEE VIDEO EXAMPLE HERE: -> http://blip.tv/file/1591319

============


So let me get this right, the PC version is permanently HANDICAPPED
(see : http://www.gtaforums...owtopic=385426) for NO REASON AT ALL!!! and it has worse graphics at worse framerates YET needs exponentially more RAM, is more than twice as large in size as the 360 version, more harddrive space, more CPU and GPU cycles and they said they have made it future proof??? How is it future proof? The way I see it the 20ft ped-in-car-cap will still exists in 2088, except by then the activations servers for Live and Rockstar Social Club would have went offline and there would be no more support from R*, MS, or Sony the Securom makers so what is a quantum computer to do???

How is it "future proof" when it has already been proven by millions of gamers that the same GTAIV game runs perfectly well on a vastly inferior system with better graphics and better framerates than the top of the line pcs can do today??? This game is over 6 months old, it is already "aged" in the gaming world, it played just fine on a console system that was realized back in 2005 and they do a half ass sloppy port to PC and put a crap load of DRM and rootkits on the game and slap it with a hefty price tag plus ridiculous going through hoops and it runs slower and looks suckier even on state of the art PC that is 100X more powerful than xbox and they have the audacity to call these optimizations "future proof"

Maybe in the future all our games will render peds in cars at 2ft radius at the rate this is going???? A game that was released well over half a year ago that has already been proven by millions to run perfectly well on a far inferior console system released way back in 2005 now comes out on the pc and runs slower, with poorer graphics even on the most state of the art computer systems that overpower any next-gen console by orders of magnitude now needs more ram, more cpu, more gpu and more hdd on even so renders slower and poorer than ever before! This is progress???? This is future proof???? Maybe if I code a FPS that looks like crap with graphics worse than the original Rainbow Six by Tom Clancy and is so horribly unoptimized and ridden with bugs and crap that it runs 1fps on a hypothetically NSA quantum computer I could sell it for $500 million bucks because it is FUTURE PROOF????

What is the point of all that if you're not there to see it?? It's better that it only uses resources to show stuff within your field of view, otherwise the requirements of the game would be even higher and for what? so nobody can see it?? why waste resources like that, make the area I am in feel more real cause that's the only bit which really matters.

To be honest I would of thought this was obvious to anyone playing any version of GTA anyway. In GTA SA for example all you need to do is stand on the road, facing towards the direction traffic comes from and chances are no new cars/peds etc will appear, turn around for 5 seconds or so and suddenly a car can be right behind you. I find it strange that you never realised this about GTA, Driver, Mafia, Saints Row or any other game in the genre, It's obvious.

johnlee
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#157

Posted 24 December 2008 - 05:49 PM

http://www.bladeinte...hydroengine.php

When I used "smokes and mirrors" I meant something like this...

Up until now, water in games has been just a background effect. Smoke and mirrors have been employed to give the impression of surface ripples and waves, but the water itself has been static.

HydroEngine is the first fluid dynamics engine for games, developed over several years by Blade's R&D team to do one thing: bring water to games which looks and behaves exactly like the real thing.

HydroEngine Features:

*
Water flows from one area to another
*
Objects get carried realistically by the flow
*
Surfaces and characters become wet when touched by the water, and dry out over time
*
Emergent effects such as eddies and underwater currents occur just like real water
*
Spray and splashes are generated dynamically according to forces acting on the water
*
Surface foam and infinite underwater particles follow the flow
*
Dynamic caustic lights cause walls and floor to shimmer as water passes through
*
Water can apply forces to objects, walls, windows and doors, causing them to buckle under the pressure



http://www.bladeinte...hydroengine.php


In the future games can be much more "real", dynamic and truly simulated, not like "smokes and mirrors" of a fully and leaving city that is not even attempts to simulate a simulation...

camdean
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#158

Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:11 PM

Yep ..


user posted image

moto_whistle.gif

Psycold
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#159

Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:27 PM

QUOTE (Inky @ Dec 18 2008, 19:45)
Well, uh...yeah. Did you honestly expect the game to be constantly calculating thousands of peds even if they're on another island or something?

lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif

I was gonna type a long winded answer but this sums it up, I mean DURRRR, come on, this is how it's been since GTA3

It's like a little kid just got told that Santa isn't real....

NecroViolator
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#160

Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:35 PM

Water is far from realistic in this game...
When you drive a car/walk through water you dont see anything resembling water...

Sad to say, youve been duped...

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#161

Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:43 PM Edited by Coldkilla, 24 December 2008 - 06:50 PM.

When I hear:

"OMGZ the world of Liberty City is not real! Damn you R* for not duplicating the world perfectly!"

All I hear is a ranting 15 year old who demands the world on a silver platter. I'm talking about those complaining about why things aren't perfect... "I can see underwater when I walk under the level or fall from 1000 feet in the sky"..

Lets talk about GTA IV as a whole then, even for consoles.. Do you not think they wanted to make this as immersive as possible? It already plays like sh*t and adding more sh*t is when the challenge comes in. Everyone WANTS realistic water physics but you better damn well know thats not going to happen until quantum computing, so quit complaining.

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#162

Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:57 PM Edited by johnlee, 24 December 2008 - 07:01 PM.

QUOTE (Coldkilla @ Dec 24 2008, 18:43)
Everyone WANTS realistic water physics but you better damn well know thats not going to happen until quantum computing, so quit complaining.

Watch this and eat your heart out Coldkilla

http://www.bladeinte...hydroengine.php


"Future proof" is not excuse for mediocrity

Properly coded and optimized we could play games orders of magnitude more immersion than the likes
GTAIV right now, with current high end hardware and play it at a higher framerate with less issues
than the crap port R* sh*tted out.

PS and plz, don't play the 'quantum computer' card again. seriously.

Jops
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#163

Posted 24 December 2008 - 07:12 PM

I've seen better joke posts

Coldkilla
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#164

Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:00 PM Edited by Coldkilla, 24 December 2008 - 08:03 PM.

QUOTE (johnlee @ Dec 24 2008, 18:57)
QUOTE (Coldkilla @ Dec 24 2008, 18:43)
Everyone WANTS realistic water physics but you better damn well know thats not going to happen until quantum computing, so quit complaining.

Watch this and eat your heart out Coldkilla

http://www.bladeinte...hydroengine.php


"Future proof" is not excuse for mediocrity

Properly coded and optimized we could play games orders of magnitude more immersion than the likes
GTAIV right now, with current high end hardware and play it at a higher framerate with less issues
than the crap port R* sh*tted out.

PS and plz, don't play the 'quantum computer' card again. seriously.

The water surface is flat. Any water splashes are merely sprites from two converging paths of "water". We'll never have small particle water physics for many years to come. If a splash was made, those droplets dont converge and seep down into the small cracks of the level...

It gives the "illusion" of realistic water physics but still falls supremely short from realistic water physics. All it is is a dynamic "blob". Not to mention my post was merely to point out that everyone expects all of the worlds technologies slammed into one game, forgetting that these technologies are all owned by separate companies all charging huge upfront prices.

johnlee
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#165

Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE (Coldkilla @ Dec 24 2008, 20:00)
QUOTE (johnlee @ Dec 24 2008, 18:57)
QUOTE (Coldkilla @ Dec 24 2008, 18:43)
Everyone WANTS realistic water physics but you better damn well know thats not going to happen until quantum computing, so quit complaining.

Watch this and eat your heart out Coldkilla

http://www.bladeinte...hydroengine.php


"Future proof" is not excuse for mediocrity

Properly coded and optimized we could play games orders of magnitude more immersion than the likes
GTAIV right now, with current high end hardware and play it at a higher framerate with less issues
than the crap port R* sh*tted out.

PS and plz, don't play the 'quantum computer' card again. seriously.

The water surface is flat. Any water splashes are merely sprites from two converging paths of "water". We'll never have small particle water physics for many years to come. If a splash was made, those droplets dont converge and seep down into the small cracks of the level...

It gives the "illusion" of realistic water physics but still falls supremely short from realistic water physics. All it is is a dynamic "blob". Not to mention my post was merely to point out that everyone expects all of the worlds technologies slammed into one game, forgetting that these technologies are all owned by separate companies all charging huge upfront prices.

Well what you said is true, but how far do you have to go to be "real enough" is the real question... Currently water in Crysis is fake (although it LOOKS real), water in GTAIV is a joke... I think we can all agree with that, esp after I modded water.dat and saw what "water" really meant in this game...

I think the level of HydroEngine is "real enough" to produce many emergent behaviors and procedure environment simulations to "cross the threshold" of the an "uncanny valley" of sorts to be virtually indistinguishable from the real thing.

Look at its list of features :

HydroEngine Features:


*Water flows from one area to another
*Objects get carried realistically by the flow
*Surfaces and characters become wet when touched by the water , and dry out over time
*Emergent effects such as eddies and underwater currents occur just like real water
* Spray and splashes are generated dynamically according to forces acting on the water
* Surface foam and infinite underwater particles follow the flow
* Dynamic caustic lights cause walls and floor to shimmer as water passes through
* Water can apply forces to objects, walls, windows and doors, causing them to buckle under the pressure


Do we really need to simulate water down to the molecular level including surface tension, or to take into account that water is a dipolar molecule with two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom??? These 'quantum level' effects can be 'averaged out' and conveniently ignored with a high level broad macro-functional approximation and still we would have a very realistic simulation of water in all its glory..

PacMaan
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#166

Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:14 PM

QUOTE (johnlee @ Dec 24 2008, 20:12)
Do we really need to simulate water down to the molecular level including surface tension, or to take into account that water is a dipolar molecule with two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom??? These 'quantum level' effects can be 'averaged out' and conveniently ignored with a high level broad macro-functional approximation and still we would have a very realistic simulation of water in all its glory..

mercie_blink.gif

bdub87
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#167

Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:23 PM

Wow congratulations on figuring all that out. Did you think when you werent seeing these people they were going on about their daily lives, working jobs, and raising families like real people? All i could think when reading your original post was DUH! lol thanks for the laugh though, its just a VIDEO GAME. Not a real life simulator.

johnlee
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#168

Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:59 PM Edited by johnlee, 24 December 2008 - 11:06 PM.

ADDENDUM #1,

This is not a rant. Hear me out, below I have detailed and explained and demonstrated in empirical terms the utter fallacy of GTAIV Liberty City being a truly "living breathing interactive city with thousands of peds and hundreds of cars" on the streets at once.

Go here to read about what I refer to as the "bubble" of GTAIV.
http://www.gtaforums...opic=385479&hl=

#############################
Video Evidence :

http://bochen360.blip.tv/#1618568
http://bochen360.blip.tv/#1618574

FULL HD VERSION --> http://rapidshare.co...Video7_720p.wmv


#############################

As it turns out the "bubble" is about a radius of a mere 50 meters or less and is much smaller than what we quality gamers would have expected from such a so called "immersive" and interactive game/ sandbox environment et al. Under this new light, it now makes even less since for us to accept the pathetic excuse that Rockstar has been "future proofing" this game and that its intricate calculations and all that require more system resources and is more taxing on the PC than sayCrysis from Crytek. I have empirically shown that categorically speaking GTAIV is no different (categorically) than any other FPS shooter such as Crysis. As least not in the "immersive, living breathing city" department... It also certainly fares worst in graphics, in framerates, and in raw physics, so what gives??

Edit: see my relevant thread titled "Peds & Drivers in Cars have 30 feet draw distance! & all grayed out at 50meters!" at http://www.gtaforums...howtopic=385426

* The game (GTAIV) employs an elaborate smokes and mirrors system and is an expert magician at creating the paper thin mere illusion of an illusion of a living breathing city while in practice I have been able to capture on camera its "cheap magic trick, overused spawning, and extensive rubber-banding" behind the scenes trickery and fraud on ironically the games own video editor and replay system. Had the PC version not included this I would never have been able to empirically prove the limited "bubble" radius of this game and thus show the lack of true immersion and all the tricks the game plays on the averagejoe gamer. The game tries very hard to never get "caught in the act" by playing switch-a-roo and bait and switch on us the gamer the moment our camera angle turns away and we are no longer looking at someone/something...

==========================
In my two video demos below you can see I am playing the sandbox system and trying to see how many buses in downtown Star Junction area that I can collect at once. Knowing the game has a terrible habit of erasing cars and people just around the corner or when we turn our backs, I was able to collect 3 buses together before the game decided it should undo my changes to the sandbox and erase my sand castle and recycle the buses for more lame same old tricks of spawning "realistic cars and traffic" in its place...


http://bochen360.blip.tv/#1618568
http://bochen360.blip.tv/#1618574

http://blip.tv/file/1610101
http://blip.tv/file/1610107


Please feel free to share and post comments and your personal observations of the game below..

trip
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#169

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:16 PM

this is too long to read it all. i read the other locked post so i get the gist.

you do realize that all video games are smoke and mirrors to give an illusion? that goes into design even. 'how can we make this look or feel like x'. there is all a long list of trickery.




johnlee
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#170

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:19 PM

QUOTE (tripmills @ Dec 24 2008, 23:16)
this is too long to read it all.  i read the other locked post so i get the gist.

you do realize that all video games are smoke and mirrors to give an illusion?  that goes into design even.  'how can we make this look or feel like x'.  there is all a long list of trickery.

http://www.bladeinte...hydroengine.php

When I used "smokes and mirrors" I meant something like this...



"""Up until now, water in games has been just a background effect. Smoke and mirrors have been employed to give the impression of surface ripples and waves, but the water itself has been static.

HydroEngine is the first fluid dynamics engine for games, developed over several years by Blade's R&D team to do one thing: bring water to games which looks and behaves exactly like the real thing.

HydroEngine Features:

*
Water flows from one area to another
*
Objects get carried realistically by the flow
*
Surfaces and characters become wet when touched by the water, and dry out over time
*
Emergent effects such as eddies and underwater currents occur just like real water
*
Spray and splashes are generated dynamically according to forces acting on the water
*
Surface foam and infinite underwater particles follow the flow
*
Dynamic caustic lights cause walls and floor to shimmer as water passes through
*
Water can apply forces to objects, walls, windows and doors, causing them to buckle under the pressure"""



http://www.bladeinte...hydroengine.php


In the future games can be much more "real", dynamic and truly simulated, not like "smokes and mirrors" of a fully and leaving city that is not even attempts to simulate a simulation... GTAIV sucks at being even the illusion of an illusion, it cannot even simulate a simulation well... THAT is my point...

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#171

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:21 PM

If you want reality go outside your house.

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#172

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:27 PM

wow...i don't want to keep you going or anything....but...wow

so, are you upset they didn't use every possible simulation engine out there?

there are a ton of problems with the game as far as the port to pc goes and all that, and trust me i have my own (long)list of bitches.

all in all though i am happy and i think they managed to pull off a good illusion for the most part. holy crap - compair it to SA and just the fact that a parked car doesn't move when you walk into it is an improvment.

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#173

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:44 PM Edited by DXWarlock, 24 December 2008 - 11:51 PM.

Ok ive read most the post, and Let it go johnlee

Just because YOU have just found this out doesn't make it a revolution of any sorts, Just because you personally have had this epiphany that the games don't simulate everything all the time, does not mean its eye opening for anyone else.

your rant on very obvious and well know facts of games as being ground breaking news, equals to the same effect someone thats never seen a car before going around grabbing people, looking them in the eye and preaching to them in a hectic voice

"you've got to see the horseless carriage, no no, you don't understand! it was a covered wagon, WITH NO HORSE!....open your eyes man, ill show you, its the most amazing thing you could ever see!"

the whole while that person rolling their eyes and trying to walk away from the guy that just realized that they existed. We are doing much the same to you.

And we are sorry the game doesnt live up to your lofty expectations of including every snipet of cutting edge prototyped, and roughly sketched out theory of some ground breaking option that might one day be added to games.

the water rant? sure it looks great, but add it to a large scale city, including all the AI and objects it contains, not some confined room with low model count it would crawl at a horrible FPS..with the water simulation you was showing you basically got what it is..a premade and well thought out level designed to show off what it can do in a very limited and controlled area as they NEED to do to show off what it can do in its current state of development.
You have what Nvidia and ATI have been doing for years, make a realtime demo of a character with maximum polygons the current hardware can handle, to make that chracter beyond anything any game currently has, while putting as little polygons in the rest of the scene as possible so it doesn't chug along, and like most people, you are going "why cant it look like that in my games?"

EDIT: come to think of it, with you long winded posts, your cross refences and cut and paste of locked topics of yours to get the "word out" despite the man trying to keep you down as it seems you assume..you remind me a LOT of the preacher guy outside of your safehouse trying to get people to realize his amazing revelation he's had, that everyone else has known for years.

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#174

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:50 PM

QUOTE (DXWarlock @ Dec 24 2008, 23:44)
Ok ive read most the post, and Let it go johnlee

Just because YOU have just found this out doesn't make it a revolution of any sorts, Just because you personally have had this epiphany that the games don't simulate everything all the time, does not mean its eye opening for anyone else.

your rant on very obvious and well know facts of games as being ground breaking news, equals to the same effect someone thats never seen a car before going around grabbing people, looking them in the eye and preaching to them in a hectic voice

"you've got to see the horseless carriage, no no, you don't understand! it was a covered wagon, WITH NO HORSE!....open your eyes man, ill show you, its the most amazing thing you could ever see!"

the whole while that person rolling their eyes and trying to walk away from the guy that just realized that they existed. We are doing much the same to you.

And we are sorry the game doesnt live up to your lofty expectations of including every snipet of cutting edge prototyped, and roughly sketched out theory of some ground breaking option that might one day be added to games.

the water rant? sure it looks great, but add it to a large scale city, including all the AI and objects it contains, not some confined room with low model count it would crawl at a horrible FPS..with the water simulation you was showing you basically got what it is..a premade and well thought out level designed to show off what it can do in a very limited and controlled area as they NEED to do to show off what it can do in its current state of development.
You have what Nvidia and ATI have been doing for years, make a realtime demo of a character with maximum polygons the current hardware can handle, to make that chracter beyond anything any game currently has, while putting as little polygons in the rest of the scene as possible so it doesn't chug along, and like most people, you are going "why cant it look like that in my games?"


My question is with a bubble of 50meters or less, why is the game still running slower than Crysis yet with graphics 10X suckier? Answer that please...

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#175

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:57 PM

QUOTE (johnlee @ Dec 24 2008, 23:50)
My question is with a bubble of 50meters or less, why is the game still running slower than Crysis yet with graphics 10X suckier? Answer that please...

can i answer?

it is a lazy port. not a crappy port, but a lazy port. sorry to say that the team who did the porting did not make any changes geared towards the pc. we are playing a console game on our pcs with just a few inline adjustments to draw distance and whathaveya.

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#176

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:57 PM

lol, about the most useless post in this whole website

who cares how the game works as long as it looks, sounds, and IS fun to play.

get a life moron, if you think you can do better, then go to school, learn how to program, make a game and sell it! Don't just complain!

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#177

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:57 PM

that wasn't your original reason for making the post at all, no where did you link 50 foot meter bubble to reasons why it should run so bad until now...So don't switch the topic subject around to try to link one problem with a loose knit observation on your part to validate and confirm your findings. the 2 are unrelated..

why it runs like crap for some people, who knows, that's total irrelevant, and so far off original post rants of being tricked into thinking its all real that its a whole different discussion on its own. Im sure of all the reasons it runs like crap, the 50 foot bubble is the LEAST of the reasons, bubble, no bubble, mega bubble..etc.

making the bubble larger would impact the performance I agree, but then it would just be a contributing factor of why, not the current underlying root of why.

stay on topic please, as it is YOUR thread.


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#178

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:58 PM

WHO REVIVED THIS FAIL THREAD!??!

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#179

Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:59 PM

well if it makes you feel any better, your reply just bumped it to the top also.

complaining about it and bumping it is like slapping your child when he hits someone going "we don't hit people!"

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#180

Posted 25 December 2008 - 12:00 AM

QUOTE (DXWarlock @ Dec 24 2008, 23:57)
that wasn't your original reason for making the post at all, no where did you link 50 foot meter bubble to reasons why it should run so bad until now...So don't switch the topic subject around to try to link one problem with a loose knit observation on your part to validate and confirm your findings. the 2 are unrelated..

why it runs like crap for some people, who knows, that's total irrelevant, and so far off original post rants of being tricked into thinking its all real that its a whole different discussion on its own. Im sure of all the reasons it runs like crap, the 50 foot bubble is the LEAST of the reasons, bubble, no bubble, mega bubble..etc.

making the bubble larger would impact the performance I agree, but then it would just be a contributing factor of why, not the current underlying root of why.

stay on topic please, as it is YOUR thread.

I would if MY OTHER THREAD wasn't locked ....

Reproduced from LOCKED thread here http://www.gtaforums...howtopic=387319
per CharmingCharlie request to "easily put this information in the other long arse topic you created"







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