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The Goal of Complete Freedom

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Tony Mozzarelli 80
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#31

Posted 29 June 2008 - 02:39 PM

Agreed, i like the fact we can come up with ideas, rather than banging on about SR2 and SA, pity most
members don't want to, but oh well.

I think i got the idea Sananoutlaw meant, and that would be great. maybe the more time you spend
outside these 'Hotzones' which they, from here on, shall be called Haha, your investigation stars could
gradually subside. and maybe you would only be able to keep track of this info if you had a particular
type of member in your gang. For instance, a 'consiglieri' or 'advisor' type of character, who's job will
be to gather information. So with him in your gang you will have access to Other gangster's, fences,
suppliers, profiles. From there you could check who is in allegiance with who, and who is at war with
who. Who charges what price for commodities.
And you will also be able to gain information on police activities. who they are investigating. which areas
are 'hotzones' that kinda thing

Illousion
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#32

Posted 29 June 2008 - 02:41 PM

Wowee pal, great post, i agree.

But on the "No Story" note, i think it would be good if the game foucused less on the story (Don't get me wrong here). But yeah, i agree, great post!

Tony Mozzarelli 80
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#33

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE (Illousion @ Jun 29 2008, 14:41)
Wowee pal, great post, i agree.

But on the "No Story" note, i think it would be good if the game foucused less on the story (Don't get me wrong here). But yeah, i agree, great post!

Yeah the story was fine, but i feel it's much better if it is largely driven by the player.
The story in IV was good but in order to make Niko consistent, they seriously inhibit
player freedom. I want to choose what my character is like, and what he would do. I
don't want to be told who i care about and who i don't. I liked the gritty feel of it. And
that's why i think all these ideas are good. They give you lots to do, but in no way
compromise the realism that Rockstar are apparently striving for. none of it is wacky
and can all be very gritty, and in keeping with the general feel

28RedEyedCrows
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#34

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:24 PM

Thanks Illousion!

Tony: I think where you took the ball from me, is that you are more so establishing a criminal organization, which I am not against at all, but I believe when I was personally coming up with ideas, I enjoyed focusing more on the experience. You know, the fear, adrenaline of being a criminal. It shouldn't all be sick fun, you know, it should be scary.

For example Something that always stuck with me, if you, or anyone else has ever seen it, in the beginning of the movie "Strange Days" you are looking from the point of view of a guy about to rob a store/bank (can't remember) with a few of his buddies. So just like if you WERE that guy, they all put on their ski masks after driving up at night, ready their weapons and move, bursting into the place and ordering people down. 'You' (the guy) hear your buddies yelling to get the money, watch this guy, hurry up as the innocent people around them are scared. Suddenly, you hear the sirens and you and your buddies try and get out the front door, but the cops are already there. Yelling and panicking, they bolt up stairs toward the roof, you right behind them, while they shoot down at the cops and get shot at as well. Once they hit the roof, a chopper puts a light on all of you as your running to the edge. Your two buddies make a jump over a gap to another rooftop and are yelling at you to jump too. Hesitant, just as the cops come running up behind you, you try for the jump, can only grab the ledge and one buddy tries to pull you up. As he is, he and the cops start shooting at each other and he's hit, causing you to fall. It then all goes black.

Didn't mean to put all that out there, but I wanted to show an example of how I'd love this game to be. So, I am right with you guys when dealing with the friendships and recruiting. I'm more into that than anything. But of course none of what I just said would be possible unless you could actually rob a place like that freestyle. Setting up situations like that would be awesome, especially with guys you care about. You know, also where the cops are few but much more frightening to deal with. (No more of this 100 cop deal. Make them realistic and make it so you feel bad when you off one. The voices are strong and the AI isn't bad, there's just so many of them, like they are clones!!!) Anyway, the great thing is, with IV, they could almost set up a situation like this already. I've made some pretty cool escapes using the 'leap over edges' and 'rolling drops'.

Bigorr
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#35

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:27 PM

Best post I've read on here so far, agree with it all 100% icon14.gif

merlinsteele
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#36

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:35 PM

Pretty good points there, from the original OP. All I can say is, I always gave sandbox style games like this a little slack in the graphics department, since it seemed to be trying to give you at least a dose, or as much as it can, of putting many different types of games rolled into one. You got driving, shooting, fighting (sort of lol), quite a map to get thru, etc... Lots of stuff to do, not just being a 1st person shooter, or not just being a driving game.

I've been racing the hell out of the sports cars here lately, and I'd rather drive and/or race in a city (natural) environment than the way most racing games are, on set track. I know this doesn't come close to a true racing game, but like I said, it tries to do so many things at once, it can't do everything as perfect as any one game can do a single thing.

I think Rockstar did the best they could, but purposefully left out a few things to continue the moneymaking on their part and the fun on our part. Not that I fault them for that; other games are done the same way, and it seems like the way it's done makes sense for them. But in a sandbox style game, when it's done, it seems odd somehow to me. In my opinion, the reason it seems odd is because in my own limited experience, I've never seen it done.

Anyway, good points on many things, and I think everyone deserves at least one good rant on their own thread, so that they can get some feedback on their thoughts and ideas. icon14.gif

Lanzfeld
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#37

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:51 PM

As the OP said, I would love if R* would develope the "I want to be a cop" aspect of the game. I love being in the cop car and chasing the bad guys/shootouts/ect...

28RedEyedCrows
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#38

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:53 PM

Thanks a lot Bigorr!

4 things!

1: merlinsteele: Thank you. I basically agree with you in giving sandbox games slack which is why I was careful not to say something stupid like, 'All the other GTAs sucked cause they had crappy graphics!' That's not really true. They were just always a little behind or just above water, and it's because you're exactly right, they are trying to do so many genre's, the graphics have to suffer a little bit. The size of the world alone will cause that problem. I think I just became harsher on them after Vice City cause it didn't look like anything was changing much after III, while their's and other's games were making big strides. I didn't need them to have high res textures, but even the animations were looking weak. But, I don't feel like that anymore. I think the graphics now are great; that includes the animations (which is more important to me). Maybe they aren't Killzone 2, but at least now you can actually come back to it a year later and still enjoy it. You're right too, the races are fun, I didn't mention that, but honestly, as I stated, I like EVERYTHING that IS in the game, it's just things that aren't there that I wish were. You probably have, but have you done the races using the first person camera? Sometimes you swear it's like 'Need for Speed: Redux' or something. smile.gif Anyway, good points. You know, some people don't like the mini games in this either, comparing them to their full fledged counterparts but I thought they were pretty good.

2: Lanzfeld: I'm glad to see we have quite a few people wanting the cop aspect. I wondered if everyone just wanted to do massacres all day!

3: Tony: that was something that ticked me off a bit, and why I strove to be a good guy in this GTA. Niko is a cool, deep dude and very moral. He doesn't want to be killing people he thinks are innocent, which is also why going on a rampage makes no sense for him. (you should have the freedom to, but you should have the freedom to be good too once the game is done and on certain missions. A couple of people you have to kill, doesn't make sense for Niko to do blindly.)

4: Yeah, they have some great voice overs for common characters, in reference to making the cops more realistic. When you shoot some of them, you DO actually feel bad until 50 more come running at you. But anyway, I also remember when I was screwing around and just shooting at random people out of boredom, my aiming reticule went up to this old lady as she was running away in which she yelled, "I wish my husband were still alive..." Hell if I didn't just drop my friggin' gun. It's always things like that that Rockstar really surprises you on. I love stuff like that. I felt bad. I didn't care if it was a game or not.

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#39

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:55 PM

my voice is gona get drowned out here but, although gta is a sandbox game it still has its fixed genre of being the criminal. It cant change that without becoming a different game.

Tony Mozzarelli 80
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#40

Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:56 PM

I see what you're saying, and i totally agree with you. It should be all about those unique
'f*ck me did that just happen' moments. But i believe that these ideas would provide the
template for such experiences. and also do so without heavily scripted missions.

Imagine the feeling you'll get knowing you're being followed. Is it cops? is it assassins?
should i really walk into this dark and exposed area to make a deal? Imagine the feeling
you would get when you're making a transaction, and all of a sudden you here a voice
echoing from the darkness "FREEZE POLICE, GET ON THE FLOOR", the place becomes
floodlit, and you go to run, before you realize that some of your most loyal friends are
boxed in by a SWAT team. Maybe the other gang members get the hell outta there, or
maybe some are trapped. Maybe in the confusion someone dropped the money. Do you
Try and fight your way through to get it? do you leave the cash and get away?

As Sanan outlaw said, imagine getting that call from one of your guys protecting your
club which is a front for your loan shark racket. You panic, this is your most trusted
captain and you don't want him busted, or worse still dead. so you speed towards the
scene. from a block or two away you can here the rattle of AK fire echoing through the
eerily quiet streets. You get round the corner only to see one of your guys injured on ground.
Your captain and another guy boxed in and pincered in the alleyway. Valiantly holding of the
'would be killers' . you know their ammo won't last and you have to get them out before the
cops arrive.

Imagine you didn't get there in time to see that and you got a call saying he's busted. His
court case will be on Monday and you know the route the prisoner transit convoy will be
taking in order to make the court house. You've had explosives set up at a large intersection.
You've placed a sniper on the roof, and have two guys in a truck. You know this is your last
chance to save him, and you have to do this right. The convoy moves into place and you give
the order. The guys in the truck ram into the meat wagon, and you pop up from your vantage
point to fire an RPG at the following cop cars. The cops get out and begin to return fire, and
you here the kick of a sniper rifle as it coincides with a poor policeman's head explode. another
is hit in the leg and drags himself into cover behind a squad car from where you can hear him
screaming. You realize your two guys in the truck have had to get out and are engaged in a
heavy fire-fight. The driver of the meat wagon takes the oppurtunity to 180 and get the f*ck out
of there. You don't know what to do. Follow the guy? Leave your three guys to fight for their
lives?



Well you get what i mean. the criminal organization and gang activities would provide a template
for these unique moments, which may have played out completely differently, depending on how
you chose to act, what weapons you used. what guys you used, and just dumb luck. I mean for
my ideas to facilitate these experiences which are, as you rightly say, what the game should be
about

Ph3L1z14n0
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#41

Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE (28RedEyedCrows @ Jun 29 2008, 12:15)
Regarding "No Story" from Ph3L1z14n0: Actually, I wanted to add that AFTER they make a "dynamic" game (quote Tony) they SHOULD go back to story telling, but after the story is done, it should be like how Tony described, "what the player makes it". I love the stories that they've been coming up with, especially in SA and big time for this one. (I praised it under a topic regarding 'award winning story') I don't want them to dump it forever, I just want them to get the 'freedom' element right in one game, then go back and add in their cool story lines. Either that, or make it some way where there are characters, but the story is so dynamic and unpredictable that it changes depending on what you do. (I don't know how they'd do it, but it's an idea)

P.S. 'Hitman' is another series I love that can suffer from limits.

I think the dynamic should rely more on doing a lot of stuff between missions to keep you busy, what do you precisely mean with this kind of freedom if you cared to explain yourself.

sananoutlaw
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#42

Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:29 PM

This is one of the best threads i've been involved in on here icon14.gif Were all along the same wave lengh & it's working. As I said earlier some of the ideas here kind of bring about a new set of gameplay, working towards a true sandbox experience where things you do impact other things without it being story limited, where it'd be up to you deciding/steering where things go, without having to stick to a set outcome even if there is two options. The possibilities could be almost endless, and why? because it's all about how you play. There would be a limit with a set storyline, but it should be kept seperate to other main things you do, but at the same time all the different stratagies you put in place & situations created by you the player could impact the story also. It would be like creating the gameplay whilst playing through, 'truely' as you want to. Like if you go into a big gun fight with a couple guys you just met & you die, probably because some of your most experienced guys got killed/arrested earlier, and with them and more care of them, you would have won the fight.

(hope that made sense)

The second chance idea is great tony, with the court transport. The longer the guy has been with you, and amount of times he's helped you/saved you, would determine how much you strive to save him, and the lenghts you'll go to & I love that. Not just, 'oh i'm meant to go save this character who I don't really give a sh*t about, because i've been told to'. You want to do it instead, and it's all your decision as to wether you do or not. It randomly happened & you want to go sort it out.

Tony Mozzarelli 80
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#43

Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:36 PM Edited by Tony Mozzarelli 80, 29 June 2008 - 04:40 PM.

Yeah exactly it's all about choice. It's not as if they can't have a nice stry arc for those
players who are more story driven. In fact, as with all the games, the activities and
different mechanics can be introduced nicely throughout the story. But the story would
not be the only focus. The focus would be playing how you want to play.
Imagine these mechanics and fences, informers and such can be introduced and even
tied in in some cases, to the story, but can also be seperate from it, in that you can
keep your own dynamic story going and react to it however you like

And yeah it's entirely up to you, risk some more guys in order to save him, or go alone.
Or just leave him if you want. but with lower level members who don't have any notoriety
you wouldn't even get that option. They get busted they're history, you just wash your hands
of them. perhaps with the court idea, you could even bring an intimidating guy to go rough
up the jury, but this would be risky because if you don't get it right, you attract a lot of heat.
you could even bribe some of them

sananoutlaw
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#44

Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:42 PM

QUOTE (Tony Mozzarelli 80 @ Jun 29 2008, 16:36)
Yeah exactly it's all about choice. It's not as if they can't have a nice stry arc for those
players who are more story driven. In fact, as with all the games, the activities and
different mechanics can be introduced nicely throughout the story. But the story would
not be the only focus. The focus would be playing how you want to play.
Imagine these mechanics and fences, informers and such can be introduced and even
tied in in some cases, to the story, but can also be seperate from it, in that you can
keep your own dynamic story going and react to it however you like

icon14.gif yeah, nicely put

Tony Mozzarelli 80
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#45

Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:48 PM

And yes this is one of the most interesting threads i've seen so far. It's a shame most people
just want to argue about stupid stuff rather than coming up with some creative ideas and
bouncing those ideas off one another to create even better ideas. more people should attempt
to come up with suggestions rather than just bitching about each other all the time

Ph3L1z14n0
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#46

Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:49 PM Edited by Ph3L1z14n0, 29 June 2008 - 04:54 PM.

QUOTE (Tony Mozzarelli 80 @ Jun 29 2008, 15:56)
Well you get what i mean. the criminal organization and gang activities would provide a template
for these unique moments, which may have played out completely differently, depending on how
you chose to act, what weapons you used. what guys you used, and just dumb luck. I mean for
my ideas to facilitate these experiences which are, as you rightly say, what the game should be
about

All those ideas from that post were really cool icon14.gif but if one thing proved IV is that the GTA games can be good without having the rising to the top theme, it's not bad, but it hampers the experience, i think it is inevitable as a crime game those ideas could be the only ones that fit to make the game have more replay value, but i'd like to see how it turns out with more creativity, it just seems so automatic to throw ourselves into ideas like "Run Rackets" or stuff like that, i wanna play a game, i don't wanna "please" myself doing stuff in games i can't do in real life, doesn't mean your ideas are bad at all, certainly having control in operations like that also looks like an improvement on IV's choosing feature.

I mention the importance of Story and now graphics, because both contribute incredibly to the experience, if there's one thing i learned from both Bioshock and Mass Effect is that both those games while having great gameplay, both wouldn't have been the same if they didn't had such amazing stories and very photorealistic scenarios which could suck you into the gameplay, now that's the kind of game i like cool.gif

Tony Mozzarelli 80
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#47

Posted 29 June 2008 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Ph3L1z14n0 @ Jun 29 2008, 16:49)
QUOTE (Tony Mozzarelli 80 @ Jun 29 2008, 15:56)
Well you get what i mean. the criminal organization and gang activities would provide a template
for these unique moments, which may have played out completely differently, depending on how
you chose to act, what weapons you used. what guys you used, and just dumb luck. I mean for
my ideas to facilitate these experiences which are, as you rightly say, what the game should be
about

All those ideas from that post were really cool icon14.gif but if one thing proved IV is that the GTA games can be good without having the rising to the top theme, it's not bad, but it hampers the experience, i think it is inevitable as a crime game those ideas could be the only ones that fit to make the game have more replay value, but i'd like to see how it turns out with more creativity, it just seems so automatic to throw ourselves into ideas like "Run Rackets" or stuff like that, i wanna play a game, i don't wannan "please" myself doing stuff in games i can't do in real life, doesn't mean your ideas are bad at all, certainly having control in operations like that also looks like an improvement on IV's choosing feature.

I mention the importance of Story and now graphics, because both contribute incredibly to the experience, if there's one thing i learned from both Bioshock and Mass Effect is that both those games while having great gameplay, both wouldn't have been the same if they didn't had such amazing stories and very photorealistic scenarios which could suck you into the gameplay, now that's the kind of game i like cool.gif

See what you're saying, but the 'rise to the top' theme, could still be done realistically.
Not like in VC where you were the undisputed king of the city. But more realistically.
running rackets and things like that in real life mafia families, doesn't work like that.
you still have to slog to earn a living. you still have to put up with rats, and police and
RICO. As i said these rackets and things would merely be to serve as a building block
for these experiences. You would still have to struggle through the Gritty underworld
You run rackets but it doesn't mean you're a millionaire, you would have lots to pay for
and lots to get in your way. so they could keep that feeling of desperation and conflict
throughout even after the main story structure. They can still have a tight story but
provide us with the means to create our own stories if you see what i mean

Ph3L1z14n0
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#48

Posted 29 June 2008 - 05:03 PM

QUOTE (Tony Mozzarelli 80 @ Jun 29 2008, 16:56)
QUOTE (Ph3L1z14n0 @ Jun 29 2008, 16:49)
QUOTE (Tony Mozzarelli 80 @ Jun 29 2008, 15:56)
Well you get what i mean. the criminal organization and gang activities would provide a template
for these unique moments, which may have played out completely differently, depending on how
you chose to act, what weapons you used. what guys you used, and just dumb luck. I mean for
my ideas to facilitate these experiences which are, as you rightly say, what the game should be
about

All those ideas from that post were really cool icon14.gif but if one thing proved IV is that the GTA games can be good without having the rising to the top theme, it's not bad, but it hampers the experience, i think it is inevitable as a crime game those ideas could be the only ones that fit to make the game have more replay value, but i'd like to see how it turns out with more creativity, it just seems so automatic to throw ourselves into ideas like "Run Rackets" or stuff like that, i wanna play a game, i don't wannan "please" myself doing stuff in games i can't do in real life, doesn't mean your ideas are bad at all, certainly having control in operations like that also looks like an improvement on IV's choosing feature.

I mention the importance of Story and now graphics, because both contribute incredibly to the experience, if there's one thing i learned from both Bioshock and Mass Effect is that both those games while having great gameplay, both wouldn't have been the same if they didn't had such amazing stories and very photorealistic scenarios which could suck you into the gameplay, now that's the kind of game i like cool.gif

See what you're saying, but the 'rise to the top' theme, could still be done realistically.
Not like in VC where you were the undisputed king of the city. But more realistically.
running rackets and things like that in real life mafia families, doesn't work like that.
you still have to slog to earn a living. you still have to put up with rats, and police and
RICO. As i said these rackets and things would merely be to serve as a building block
for these experiences. You would still have to struggle through the Gritty underworld
You run rackets but it doesn't mean you're a millionaire, you would have lots to pay for
and lots to get in your way. so they could keep that feeling of desperation and conflict
throughout even after the main story structure. They can still have a tight story but
provide us with the means to create our own stories if you see what i mean

When you said RICO you kinda nailed it icon14.gif

Certainly the freedom to do some things how you wanted it can be done properly indeed, makes me wonder what will be the focus on the next GTA, i think R* built the basis and now they're gonna try to see if they can venture in grounds similar to these.

28RedEyedCrows
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#49

Posted 29 June 2008 - 05:07 PM

Bawjaws: I saw your post. I didn't think that the game should actually be a 'good guy' game (though CJ and Niko are far from GTA One characters), even the police should have an edge, I just think the option to side with the cops would be fun, even if it's not the focus (your right, it really shouldn't be, then it would be 'True Crime: The Return' or something.) In a lesser way: supped up vigilante missions. As for the other stuff, we're just really throwing out ideas.

To everyone else, I've got weird sleeping hours, so right now I'm running on fumes. It's funny, I thought I'd post my big topic and it'd be on page 3 by the time I woke up. Instead I feel like I started my semi and now I'm the sleepy truck driver who's truck is taking off without him! lol That's good though, I'm thrilled.

Just a note to Ph3L1z14n0: I think I see where you are coming from now, you don't care for the 'simulation' type experience and enjoy the stories. That's fine, I do too. I'm not sure where everybody's headed now, but when I originally mentioned ditching the story for a game, I just meant for like, one game in order to make it replayable in the future once the story was finished, not ditch stories for the whole series. I will say that even though the story in GTA IV really pulled me in, I never purposely played a GTA game to get involved in a story. I play something like Final Fantasy for that. I play GTAs for the fact that they ARE sandbox games and to mess around or use my imagination. That's how they started at least, you know, as crime simulators. I mean, you used to kill people for points! It just happened that this time the story was awesome, or at least the character development. I think now, from between what Rockstar has done and what is being brought up here, I'd just like to find a happy medium. I'm sure there is one.

Sorry if this isn't coherent. I'm about ready to fade off here for a while!

sananoutlaw
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#50

Posted 29 June 2008 - 05:10 PM

Ph, it's all about taking control. There could be a storyline yes, but also what you do yourself without any guidance counts. Like if you are on a story mission involving cops/investigators, you could call a contact you made yourself who has inside infomation, like a stat on how much they know. Like in IV, during a mission you can call Dwayne for his backup to come, so this is very possible. It would just be good to expand a lot on this. Like I said & tony mentioned about the informant, maybe some guy ranked high in your gang txts you about this other guy he knows, kind of like IV did with abilities from friends once respect/like level is high enough. But expanded, maybe that guy with the contact got taken out/arrested and won't just simply respawn at the hospital or something, he's gone if you don't prevent it! Due to something going wrong during your non-story opperations. You could also take your own guys for backup, deciding who to bring depending on their skill, maybe tagging one to a suspicious car around the general area of the 'meet'.

One idea I had was something like having to have something like say $4,000,000 to go towards 100 percent. Which means you really do have to make your decisions carefully and build up a big presence with a good few profitable business's, which would be quite hard to do, if the investigation thing was implemented. You would need your finest men, lookouts set up at hot zones, the right contacts etc...not just things thrown at you from the storyline. This would be a challange

Tony Mozzarelli 80
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#51

Posted 29 June 2008 - 05:12 PM

QUOTE (Ph3L1z14n0 @ Jun 29 2008, 17:03)
QUOTE (Tony Mozzarelli 80 @ Jun 29 2008, 16:56)
QUOTE (Ph3L1z14n0 @ Jun 29 2008, 16:49)
QUOTE (Tony Mozzarelli 80 @ Jun 29 2008, 15:56)
Well you get what i mean. the criminal organization and gang activities would provide a template
for these unique moments, which may have played out completely differently, depending on how
you chose to act, what weapons you used. what guys you used, and just dumb luck. I mean for
my ideas to facilitate these experiences which are, as you rightly say, what the game should be
about

All those ideas from that post were really cool icon14.gif but if one thing proved IV is that the GTA games can be good without having the rising to the top theme, it's not bad, but it hampers the experience, i think it is inevitable as a crime game those ideas could be the only ones that fit to make the game have more replay value, but i'd like to see how it turns out with more creativity, it just seems so automatic to throw ourselves into ideas like "Run Rackets" or stuff like that, i wanna play a game, i don't wannan "please" myself doing stuff in games i can't do in real life, doesn't mean your ideas are bad at all, certainly having control in operations like that also looks like an improvement on IV's choosing feature.

I mention the importance of Story and now graphics, because both contribute incredibly to the experience, if there's one thing i learned from both Bioshock and Mass Effect is that both those games while having great gameplay, both wouldn't have been the same if they didn't had such amazing stories and very photorealistic scenarios which could suck you into the gameplay, now that's the kind of game i like cool.gif

See what you're saying, but the 'rise to the top' theme, could still be done realistically.
Not like in VC where you were the undisputed king of the city. But more realistically.
running rackets and things like that in real life mafia families, doesn't work like that.
you still have to slog to earn a living. you still have to put up with rats, and police and
RICO. As i said these rackets and things would merely be to serve as a building block
for these experiences. You would still have to struggle through the Gritty underworld
You run rackets but it doesn't mean you're a millionaire, you would have lots to pay for
and lots to get in your way. so they could keep that feeling of desperation and conflict
throughout even after the main story structure. They can still have a tight story but
provide us with the means to create our own stories if you see what i mean

When you said RICO you kinda nailed it icon14.gif

Certainly the freedom to do some things how you wanted it can be done properly indeed, makes me wonder what will be the focus on the next GTA, i think R* built the basis and now they're gonna try to see if they can venture in grounds similar to these.

I certainly do hope so, because the graphics and physics they have now are pretty amazing.
And will help to add to the immersion, but it just needs something to help give us purpose.
sure the TV and Internet, and all that stuff are great little gimmicks, and do in fact add to the
illusion of a consistent world, but they are just background to what we would all want to be
doing which is crime. I want to kidnap some rich guy and make him call his wife so i can
demand a ransom. I wanna go along to the exchange and be ambushed by loadsa cops.
I wanna plan a robbery and take my crew along to control the crowd and fight off the cops,
all this stuff, with RAGE and Euphoria. and yeah i want to worry about RICO, i want to hate
the feds, i want them to follow and harass me. I want to have to worry about where my next
dollar is coming from. I wanna worry about my friends and if they'll betray me. i wanna have
to worry about who i buy from and sell to. I wanna immerse myself in the criminal underbelly
of the city and feel the gut churning heart wrenching allure of money and power only to have
it snatched away from me

28RedEyedCrows
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#52

Posted 29 June 2008 - 05:44 PM Edited by 28RedEyedCrows, 29 June 2008 - 06:20 PM.

I'm just going to throw things out here. Since you're all talking about a pretty complex system at this point, what about having an in depth system using the girlfriend mechanic? What I mean is that, in whatever way, you meet a girl, build a relationship with her, but once that's established, becomes more than just someone else to hang out with and actually becomes important to what's happening in your world...

What I am thinking is, here you meet this girl, you get really close to her; maybe you even marry her, but then, because you're a criminal, she becomes at risk. Rivals might kidnap her and hold her hostage, either for ransom or for revenge against you and you'd have to decide whether to pay up, surrender something or go in guns blazing. Maybe they try and simply kill her by breaking into your place if you piss them off enough. If she does get killed, you could always take out the people that did it, and maybe her death causes a rift between you and someone else she's related to, such as a mafioso. That part would be almost strictly for drama, but it would be a cool simulation if done well. As a benefit, she might help negotiate things for you with more common people, or even take care of you if you or one of your friends is shot, stabbed, etc. by patching you up in the house. (like any good crime movie) Maybe even after being close to her, it's possible she rats you out to someone who offers her a lot of money or by threatening her. Maybe if you're not sure what's going on with her, you can send someone to tail her using the 'tagging' system that sananoutlaw mentioned and they can let you know if she's visiting a rival, giving you the option to investigate the situation. This could work for other people too. Anyway, just an idea. I'm sure you guys can come up with other dynamics.

Add: Heh, maybe they find out she's actually having an affair with some sleaze ball?? notify.gif
Add: Oh yeah, and of course, a lot of those things could happen with family members, or trusted members of your crew too. Of course going after a member of your crew would start screwing with you right away.

One more add since I'm taking off for a while: Would you guys prefer GTA to have the mafia atmosphere, or more of the 'gangs of today' atmosphere? I'd actually pick the latter since it's a lot scarier when done realistically.

Ph3L1z14n0
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#53

Posted 29 June 2008 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE
I never purposely played a GTA game to get involved in a story
That sir without a doubt is the full truth, i never played III because someone told me it had a great story, i played it exactly because of what you said, i think it's the case for at least 98% of the forum members, if not 100%, but these days in video gaming both story and graphical prowess have taken a major role, which shouldn't be tossed aside, now many people have read this comment, but precisely because Saints Row has a lackluster and derivative story, and truly bad graphics, it can never be as inmersive or as serious as GTA, not to offend anyone, although GTA could indeed learn a lot from Saints Row, hope the fight club idea works out.

QUOTE
I wanna immerse myself in the criminal underbelly of the city and feel the gut churning heart wrenching allure of money and power only to have it snatched away from me
Hope that R* doesn't make a sarcastic remark on that thing we all want, like the car wash, although that was funny biggrin.gif

Am i right if i say that many users agree that interactivity and control over a diverse underground criminal actions without sacrificing elements that enhance the experience are what we all want for GTA:Next?

Dan001
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#54

Posted 29 June 2008 - 07:09 PM

Nice post, 28RedEyedCrows. I like how you commented on GTA4 without constantly comparing it to SanAndreas - well done.

One part I agreed with was the the idea of being able to help out the police in a gun fight, that would have been an awesome addition. You know, I expected the cell phone to offer additional missions: police work ( or vigilante ), firefighter missions, assasination missions, etc.

I personally stopped playing GTA4 after I finished the main story line - something I never did with previous GTAs. I would play every GTA religiously until the next installment would come out - sad, sad times.

UndergroundKing
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#55

Posted 29 June 2008 - 07:37 PM

Great ideas but they'll never be in GTA. sad.gif I mean, if they take away the story then the writers would be out of a job. I can care less tho bcuz I agree with less story and more replay features but R* wont make a change like that to GTA. Our best bet is for someone to make another game. sh*t, if I had help I would make a game my damn self. I mean theres just no point in hoping R* will do it when they obviously have their own agenda. You all have great ideas and if enuf of you want to do something then I'm down. I can model, texture and animate. I also have tons of design ideas. If not then lets just continue rambling about what ifs. rolleyes.gif

merlinsteele
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#56

Posted 29 June 2008 - 07:41 PM

QUOTE (28RedEyedCrows @ Jun 29 2008, 15:53)
You're right too, the races are fun, I didn't mention that, but honestly, as I stated, I like EVERYTHING that IS in the game, it's just things that aren't there that I wish were. You probably have, but have you done the races using the first person camera? Sometimes you swear it's like 'Need for Speed: Redux' or something. smile.gif

Have I EVER!, with the 1st person aspect of driving!! Man, that's most of what I've been doing, + gathering up as many comets as I can! But yeah, it's a better feature than I first realized. lol.gif

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#57

Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:37 PM Edited by Bawjaws, 29 June 2008 - 08:42 PM.

ah, i feel bad for playing advocate to this whole thread but it doesnt sound like its a gta game your discussing to me. In the same way a novel needs a plot, a game needs a story to drive it forward. You could create a big living breathing city where anythings possible, but the game needs to have the power to get people to want to switch on their consoles to see whats gonna happen next. theres only so much lifespan a game with the kind of freedom your talking about can have. people are pretty lazy when it comes to recreation, they need a path of sorts to follow. The game thats being described here doesnt really sound like a product, gta is rockstar's product to sell. There not saying, 'here weve made this for you, go do what you want'. with gta theyre saying, heres our product, buy it, play it and get involved in our game'.

Ph3L1z14n0
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#58

Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:57 PM

QUOTE (Bawjaws @ Jun 29 2008, 20:37)
ah, i feel bad for playing advocate to this whole thread but it doesnt sound like its a gta game your discussing to me. In the same way a novel needs a plot, a game needs a story to drive it forward. You could create a big living breathing city where anythings possible, but the game needs to have the power to get people to want to switch on their consoles to see whats gonna happen next. theres only so much lifespan a game with the kind of freedom your talking about can have. people are pretty lazy when it comes to recreation, they need a path of sorts to follow. The game thats being described here doesnt really sound like a product, gta is rockstar's product to sell. There not saying, 'here weve made this for you, go do what you want'. with gta theyre saying, heres our product, buy it, play it and get involved in our game'.

I know what you mean, but some of the ideas that Mozzarelli proposed can work independently, like the racket mechanics.

Nikolai Bellic
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#59

Posted 29 June 2008 - 09:40 PM

I think the vast majority of the ideas in this thread are commendable. It's actually nice just to read anything on here that's informed and well thought out.

I am hoping that some of the features in IV like the 'choices' were just Rockstars way of testing the water. I think it's entirely necessary for the game to evolve in this way; Do we really just want to be discussing in 20 years if they'll do another one in Liberty City or choose a new city?

I think Rockstar have lots of ideas of where to take the series, many of them limited by either technology or my the 'pigeon-hole' in which GTA sits. Yes, it is a crime siumulator, not a cop simulator. Hence the development of new games like LA Noire :

"an interactive detective story set in the classic noir period of the late 1940's. L.A. Noire blends action, detection and complex storytelling and draws players into an open-ended challenge to solve a series of gruesome murders. Set in a perfectly recreated Los Angeles before freeways, with a post-war backdrop of corruption, drugs and jazz, L.A. Noire will truly blend cinema and gaming"

Rockstar can take GTA to the next-level that we are all hoping for, but they will have to do it gradually and intelligently or risk alienating a large chunk of their fanbase who simply want to steal cars, shoot guns and kill people in different eras and locations.

Chewybacca
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#60

Posted 29 June 2008 - 09:41 PM

While I thoroughly enjoyed settling in front on the computer and reading this thread in its entirety, I also don't see all these great game ideas feasibly forming the sole basis of a new Grand Theft Auto title. I, too, was drawn into this series by the open world/sandbox dynamic of III, rather than its storyline, and agree that is what determines the replayability of a GTA game. However, a story is necessary to act as a foundation for the sandbox features to branch out from. Plus, from a business perspective, it is most likely in Rockstar's best interests to adhere to having a traditional single-player storyline approach, lest they alienate some gamers who might be put off by not having a set path to follow.

Before I start to sound too much like I'm raining on everyone's parade here, I DO think that the ideas thrown around in this thread could be implemented into a GTA title, albeit to a smaller degree. See, one thing that irked me after completing IV was that there were quite a few techniques introduced in a single storyline mission that never made an appearance later in the story nor served much purpose outside of the mission. Now, if Rockstar took that and ran in the opposite direction with it, we could have all those ideas that Tony Mozzarelli 80's mentioned (holding the wealthy for ransom, planning your own robbery) introduced in a storyline mission, and then upon completion, be given an option to initiate your own ransom, heist, gang war, or what have you. I guess what I'm getting at is that instead having all these open-ended criminal activities serving as the main focus of the game, they could be optional ventures that the player could partake in as side missions or after storyline completion.

Working with another common complaint about the GTA series, the value of money, perhaps toward the end of the storyline (or even throughout) the player would require a certain amount of money (or even respect, manpower, or territory) to advance or initiate the next mission. I realize that these ideas are not necessarily new to the series, but I think re-introducing and integrating them to work together would be good way to address the replayability factor and the freedom of choice within GTA games.




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