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The Cripling of GTA4

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inveni0
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#1

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:38 PM

I'm not a complainer. When I play GTA4, I don't miss car customization or the Dodo. I don't need to tattoo Niko or make him fat or buff. But I understand why some people enjoy that--and I understand why they're upset it's gone.

So, I wanted to write a little theory behind why this has been done, and I hope those of you that are upset will have a new look on GTA4.

GTA4 is similar to GTA3 because it's designed to be. When GTA:SA was released, it was so big and so full that you could do just about anything. I believe stripping its extras is a marketing move, because placing all of those extras into GTA4 would leave no room for the franchise to continue. With GTA4, we're getting a taste of a new phase in the GTA franchise--much like the move from GTA2 to GTA3. Now that we're there, GTA4 has room to grow. We can expect to see the extras of GTA3:SA appear in future GTA4 games. Here's how I know:

1) No body morphing? Rockstar said it made the animations look crap. The truth is, there are peds of ALL body types, so animating physical changes in Niko would have been fairly simple--but best save that for a future game, eh?

2) No planes? Rockstar said GTA4 was too small a city. They didn't site technical problems. They also didn't say that LC was the biggest city they could get the systems to play. This means that a new city could be larger--and planes may sneak onto the scene again. This is another good reason to buy the next chapter in GTA.

3) No car customization? Lets face it, even if you could only use wheels that already exist on other cars, it would be worth it. And changing paint colors is easy (PaynSpray). There's even a Hummer-style vehicle in game (the one you steal for Brucie at one point) that has custom vinyls. This could be done easily. But, Rockstar needed another reason to get us to buy another GTA.

Basically, Rockstar knew it would sell 500 million copies of GTA4 WITHOUT all of those things. So, it only makes sense to save them for the next game. It will make a new game have purchase appeal--and that's the most important thing in business. Your next product MUST be bigger and better.

Any other thoughts?

StanMarsh
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#2

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:45 PM

1- The difference is that Niko appears in all the cutscenes and goes through more motions in the course of the game.

2- Agreed.

3- Couldn't care either way, never customized a car in San Andreas.

masaba
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#3

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:49 PM

But what does this have to do with whether the game is fun or not?

inveni0
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#4

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:50 PM

QUOTE (StanMarsh @ May 1 2008, 14:45)
1- The difference is that Niko appears in all the cutscenes and goes through more motions in the course of the game.

2- Agreed.

3- Couldn't care either way, never customized  a car in San Andreas.

1- There are plenty of graphical imperfections in those cutscenes. I think we'll all forgive a little clipping of arms/legs, etc. I think the real issue is a matter of adapting the Euphoria collisions--but I am sure they're hard at work on that.


QUOTE
But what does this have to do with whether the game is fun or not?


This thread is targeted to those that believe the absence of these extras detract from the game.

MIKEYBOYCARDIFF
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#5

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:52 PM

I disagree, I don't think they would leave things out just to put them in a future game, I think they had to draw the line somewhere of what they were putting in or the game would have never got finished!

GatorSixCharlie
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#6

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:52 PM Edited by GatorSixCharlie, 01 May 2008 - 02:55 PM.

I disagree.

Here is why, I don't think they hold stuff back... I mean this one was pushed back twice... to tweak and polish...

Really, Rockstar has pushed the enevelope with the Euphoria engine, and Naturalmotion... I don't think its a company strategy to with hold perks/options...

Do I think future versions will have new features we haven't see in this one, sure... But do they really need little things like planes, tattoos, car mods, if they make a whole new city, with new characters and new story? Which possible future GTA IV: ???? might be a whole another city...

I know personally I didn't buy or like San Andreas for those little things, but for the big thing, new city, new story... Saints Row seems like a PS2/XBOX port compared to this... after playing this.

I think you have a valid point, but I don't think a company that will record 3 versions of dialoge for a single mission, is the type to hold things back like Electronic Arts does with their cookie cutter sports games...

(Interesting Topic though)




ripps
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#7

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (inveni0 @ May 1 2008, 14:38)

1) No body morphing?  Rockstar said it made the animations look crap.  The truth is, there are peds of ALL body types, so animating physical changes in Niko would have been fairly simple--but best save that for a future game, eh?

2) No planes?  Rockstar said GTA4 was too small a city.  They didn't site technical problems.  They also didn't say that LC was the biggest city they could get the systems to play.  This means that a new city could be larger--and planes may sneak onto the scene again.  This is another good reason to buy the next chapter in GTA.

3) No car customization?  Lets face it, even if you could only use wheels that already exist on other cars, it would be worth it.  And changing paint colors is easy (PaynSpray).  There's even a Hummer-style vehicle in game (the one you steal for Brucie at one point) that has custom vinyls.  This could be done easily.  But, Rockstar needed another reason to get us to buy another GTA.

So? Just makes me look forward to the next game more tbh

StanMarsh
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#8

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (inveni0 @ May 1 2008, 14:50)
QUOTE (StanMarsh @ May 1 2008, 14:45)
1- The difference is that Niko appears in all the cutscenes and goes through more motions in the course of the game.

2- Agreed.

3- Couldn't care either way, never customized  a car in San Andreas.

1- There are plenty of graphical imperfections in those cutscenes. I think we'll all forgive a little clipping of arms/legs, etc. I think the real issue is a matter of adapting the Euphoria collisions--but I am sure they're hard at work on that.

There may be imperfections, but remember that that is with the engine being able to count on only one set of animations. Now, if they had to deal with morphing...yikes. If the engine can be improved then it would be fine, but it doesn't detract from this game much if at all.

FriTheAntiHero
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#9

Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:54 PM

I think everybody was just way too over-hyped. yawn.gif

xer0er
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#10

Posted 01 May 2008 - 03:00 PM

Don't make Rockstar regret releasing San Andreas.
They made SA as a "once off".

If they added the stupid stuff from SA, it would just be another stupid SA game, and a crap sequel that would fail.

The reason GTA excels is because it is a new experience every time.
I think the people complaining are the ones who joined the GTA games in San Andreas.

Besides, they made GTA IV ground up, with the RAGE engine, built in-house.
San Andreas was built using the existing foundations from GTA3 era, and many things were re-used.

The next few GTAs will be using the foundations used in GTA IV, so they will be bigger and better, with a lot of new improvements.

Then, we may even see another SA style game coming out using the GTA IV engine - and that will be far better than what GTA IV could have promised if it had them from start.

inveni0
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#11

Posted 01 May 2008 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE (ripps @ May 1 2008, 14:53)
QUOTE (inveni0 @ May 1 2008, 14:38)

1) No body morphing?  Rockstar said it made the animations look crap.  The truth is, there are peds of ALL body types, so animating physical changes in Niko would have been fairly simple--but best save that for a future game, eh?

2) No planes?  Rockstar said GTA4 was too small a city.  They didn't site technical problems.  They also didn't say that LC was the biggest city they could get the systems to play.  This means that a new city could be larger--and planes may sneak onto the scene again.  This is another good reason to buy the next chapter in GTA.

3) No car customization?  Lets face it, even if you could only use wheels that already exist on other cars, it would be worth it.  And changing paint colors is easy (PaynSpray).  There's even a Hummer-style vehicle in game (the one you steal for Brucie at one point) that has custom vinyls.  This could be done easily.  But, Rockstar needed another reason to get us to buy another GTA.

So? Just makes me look forward to the next game more tbh

Exactly. That's the point.

EL BENSON
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#12

Posted 01 May 2008 - 03:07 PM

I was thinking this last night, you nailed it, if they put too much into this one, then the next one would not live up to the customizable expectations of the previous one, much like this one in comparison to SA

Niko B3llic
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#13

Posted 01 May 2008 - 05:49 PM

yeah i agree. everyone who is bitching about gta iv are just super nerds who want everything to be perfect. I Love the game rediculously! The people who are bitching should just play SA again and leave the gta iv fans out of it.....end of story! bored.gif

sattizahn
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#14

Posted 01 May 2008 - 05:54 PM

1- what that 1st dude said

2- Have fun with one landing strip, and just flying in circles with nowhere to land

3- WTF? "I'm Niko, an Eastern European immigrant fresh off the boat. No, I don't want to earn money or build rapport with the surrounding city and environment. I'd rather put 20 inch rims on a bitchin-mobile and roof scoops on a car I just stole..."


Really? Really.....

kool_J_rap
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#15

Posted 01 May 2008 - 05:54 PM

How come theres only 2 melee weapons ? WTF !? How come when I see someone with a hammer and they drop it, I can't use it ? Would it really be that f*cking hard to implement for f*cks sake. Its a good game, but they got f*cking lazy when it comes to weapons, its the newest one on the newest technology and they actually have less weapons than ever before. f*cking bullsh*t

ragnartheawful
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#16

Posted 01 May 2008 - 05:57 PM

Well put, but poorly titled. I'm all for room to grow, and that's exactly what it is.

StanMarsh
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#17

Posted 01 May 2008 - 05:58 PM

QUOTE (kool_J_rap @ May 1 2008, 17:54)
How come theres only 2 melee weapons ? WTF !? How come when I see someone with a hammer and they drop it, I can't use it ? Would it really be that f*cking hard to implement for f*cks sake. Its a good game, but they got f*cking lazy when it comes to weapons, its the newest one on the newest technology and they actually have less weapons than ever before. f*cking bullsh*t

Cursing doesn't make you cool, homeboy.tounge2.gif

More melee weapons would be good, but I hope they don't add more guns.

Slamman
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#18

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:36 PM

How has the change to GTA4 been any different from past GTAs in the respect that there are features dedicated to each one, otherwise the replayability of an old game is hindered. I think there's madness to the methodology that you guys DON'T take into account. There is also the reason of space and time constraints as well as money. They have to formulate a design plan VERY early on as Aaron Garbut explained about two weeks back in his interview.

Did you guys read the press and interviews before you complained?
I can see there's reason the new features were the ones they put their time on, it is a new GTA and it should feel like one.
Very misleading title, by the way orly.gif

inveni0
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#19

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:38 PM

QUOTE (Slamman @ May 1 2008, 18:36)
How has the change to GTA4 been any different from past GTAs in the respect that there are features dedicated to each one, otherwise the replayability of an old game is hindered. I think there's madness to the methodology that you guys DON'T take into account. There is also the reason of space and time constraints as well as money. They have to formulate a design plan VERY early on as Aaron Garbut explained about two weeks back in his interview.

Did you guys read the press and interviews before you complained?
I can see there's reason the new features were the ones they put their time on, it is a new GTA and it should feel like one.
Very misleading title, by the way orly.gif

How is the title misleading? This thread is about the reason 'fun' abilities have been taken out of the series. Much like someone that can't run and jump is considered crippled.

Slamman
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#20

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:45 PM

The title seems like an open flame to the game designers at Rockstar North. I don't care for those forum GTA fans making light of the hard work that went into each and every GTA, it's a passion for them to make these games, and then the whining goes on and on.

If you follow the inside reports from Dan, Aaron and Sam, it's easy to understand what the thought process was, even the above statement about Niko versus the Peds and his physical makeup being the same... Aaron described how all the peds are based around a set of ped-packs and slightly altered with clothes and face graphics, in other words the ped-packs are identical in their proportions but still look different. Clearly planes were taking out because it was one city. End of story there. I mean, complaining has all been done already, it's more of the same at this point. Except the change and move on.

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#21

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:47 PM

QUOTE (kool_J_rap @ May 1 2008, 17:54)
How come theres only 2 melee weapons ? WTF !? How come when I see someone with a hammer and they drop it, I can't use it ? Would it really be that f*cking hard to implement for f*cks sake. Its a good game, but they got f*cking lazy when it comes to weapons, its the newest one on the newest technology and they actually have less weapons than ever before. f*cking bullsh*t

Yeah I agree with that faucking sh*t. colgate.gif

They should have made it so the sledge hammer and sh*t were just much like bricks. IE you used the same button to pick them up but once you have them you use the normal weapon controls to hit with them.
They couldn't be put away (holstered) and brought around, you would have to actually carry them. They wouldn't be an acutal weapon persay, but more like an item like a brick.
You would throw them down when you didn't want them anymore. Think about how many things you could use as weapons...

This is more ideas for the next GTA I guess. I hope they get rid of the "invisible" weapons when you holster them in the next one.

markiij
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#22

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:48 PM

So.... you're basicly saying IV isn't fun cause you can train your body or pimp your car?... Lol, you must be crazy XD!

inveni0
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#23

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:50 PM

QUOTE (Slamman @ May 1 2008, 18:45)
The title seems like an open flame to the game designers at Rockstar North. I don't care for those forum GTA fans making light of the hard work that went into each and every GTA, it's a passion for them to make these games, and then the whining goes on and on.

If you follow the inside reports from Dan, Aaron and Sam, it's easy to understand what the thought process was, even the above statement about Niko versus the Peds and his physical makeup being the same... Aaron described how all the peds are based around a set of ped-packs and slightly altered with clothes and face graphics, in other words the ped-packs are identical in their proportions but still look different. Clearly planes were taking out because it was one city. End of story there. I mean, complaining has all been done already, it's more of the same at this point. Except the change and move on.

I think that you think I'm advocating complaining. I'm not. I'm just explaining it from a marketing standpoint. All of these extras will eventually find its way back to us. GTA4 is just the ground work.

But, back on the plane issue, there's no reason we couldn't have the Dodo. We used it in 3, and we used the sea plane in VC.

Slamman
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#24

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:52 PM

You're still missing the obvious point, here's a title that matches your post's "body"

In Defence of GTA4, ...Ten Reasons, etc..

StanMarsh
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#25

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:53 PM

I think he would have less of a problem if you WERE advocating complaining. As it is, you seem to be advocating an angle that says, "They didn't do everything they could have for marketting reasons!" and therefore making light of some of the work that went into the game.

beardedbastard
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#26

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:55 PM

QUOTE (inveni0 @ May 1 2008, 18:50)
I think that you think I'm advocating complaining. I'm not. I'm just explaining it from a marketing standpoint. All of these extras will eventually find its way back to us. GTA4 is just the ground work.

But, back on the plane issue, there's no reason we couldn't have the Dodo. We used it in 3, and we used the sea plane in VC.

I, for one, agree with you.
Of course they had discussions about these features and decided "No, not enough resources. We can always add those in future games. Lets focus more on the things new with this one."

It wasn't the only deciding factor in not putting these feature in (some others: realism, time constraints) but it did play a role in their decisions not to.

Slamman
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#27

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:56 PM

About melee weapons, I prefer that implemented over the planes. Helicopters in past GTAs were just fine and they can be here too. I went the construction site and knocked a guy to the ground up there, he left a nail gun sitting there but I don't think there's anyway to use it, but why not??

Hopefully at least a future idea for a weapon, I love it! biggrin.gif

dando89
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#28

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:57 PM

The only thing i miss is the car modifying realy, everything else i dont realy need or want.

inveni0
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#29

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:58 PM

QUOTE
I think he would have less of a problem if you WERE advocating complaining. As it is, you seem to be advocating an angle that says, "They didn't do everything they could have for marketting reasons!" and therefore making light of some of the work that went into the game.


The title was written to attract those with complaints. So, you are interpreting it correctly. It also perfectly matches the OT. The problem is that people WITHOUT complaints get their panties in a wad when someone mentions a wish list. I started this thread to discuss the exclusion of SA extras in a rational manner. If you aren't interested in that, then GTFO. Attacking a thread title that does EXACTLY what thread titles should do is stupid.

jakesp
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#30

Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:59 PM

If Niko got fat or got a new tattoo wouldn't the characters in the cut-scenes have to mention it cos of all the realism. There's no planes cos there's only one airport and you try landing a plane on star junction, it would be impossible without exploding. I think the parachute should be in cos when people get rich the base jump for fun and surely if Niko makes it big he wants to do dare devil stuff like a millionaire would.




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