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VC Features In LC...

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SteaVor
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#31

Posted 08 May 2007 - 08:22 AM

Yeah, that's an additional possibility, but I just wanted to note that it won't be possible without editing all of the GXTs.

Craig Kostelecky
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#32

Posted 08 May 2007 - 01:09 PM

I like the idea of adding fireproof-ness to the reward. That is if my opinion still counts after becoming a traitor and all wink.gif

AK-73
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#33

Posted 08 May 2007 - 03:24 PM Edited by AK-73, 08 May 2007 - 03:36 PM.

QUOTE (Ben @ May 6 2007, 06:06)

The issue of what exactly to do with the bikes was discussed and all-but-finalised around September last year.  I actually took a look at my old chat logs to figure out the reasons why Craig made the decisions he did - initially, he was going to go with an LCS-style setup, because that's the way R* intended it to be (for those of you who, like me, have never played LCS, this style of setup would involve bikes driving around in traffic (including on Portland) and sportscars still only appearing on Staunton and SSV).  However, he decided to scrap that idea and add more parked bikes around the city - I can't find a mention of why, although I suspect he was just too lazy tounge.gif .  I don't think anything was done about it at all though - can anyone confirm this?


A few years back I took a course (and a seminar) on requirements engineering, and I seriously suggest that this project picks it up, even though it might be some significant administrative work to begin with (sounds like a job for Ben wink.gif ). That is to put on record when decisions like that are being made and why.

That is, btw, a problem of society altogether: one generation creates a law and the next generation doesn't know anymore why the law was set-up that way and starts to tweak it until it ends up worse than it was before, the original knowledge having been lost.

But to return to the issue: one should put on record why things have been set-up the way they are, quite probably even turn this thread into such a record. It's a matter of preserving knowledge beyond generations of contributors.

Alex

PS Lol, I am not the one to make the final judgement on that but as I take it traitors don't lose their voting rights. smile.gif

Ben
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#34

Posted 09 May 2007 - 05:10 AM

@Kon - Yeah, I think editing the GXT sounds like a much better idea. I'll fix that up for the American one when I get a chance and make a note in the package that the others need to be changed as well.

And yes, I'm well aware of the differences in the Hunter spawning setup between VC and LC wink.gif . And I'm quite happy with the way we're doing it.

@Craig - pffft, who are you again? tounge.gif

Seriously though, your opinion is still valid, and ranks quite highly.

@AK - That's an interesting idea. Unfortunately though, setting up such a record from scratch would require me to pick Demarest's brain, and then go and hassle Craig. I haven't been heavily involved in the project for even two years yet.

The reasons for most decisions could probably be best summed up by the attitudes of Dem and Craig respectively - Dem was aiming for 100% authenticity, whereas Craig was aiming to create the sort of game R* would've created had they had the VC engine at the time they did GTA3 (GTA3 authenticity still played a major part though). Given that my involvement in the project was under Craig's leadership only, I tend to follow his approach more.

Obviously, it's impossible to satisfy everyone. But the way LC was initially set up was to attempt to ensure that it was going to be easily moddable for anyone who wished to change something (that's something I hope my guide contributed to). Generally speaking, we're going for authenticity. However, at the same time, we want to make use of as many appropriate (that was determined by Craig's discretion in the past, and mine now) VC features as possible, in order to gain the most effectiveness out of porting GTA3 to the improved engine.

An explanation such as this should be sufficient enough for people who wonder why certain changes have been made. If they are still curious (as in, looking for more details), then I'll do my best to try to answer them, but that may not always be possible.

Furthermore, if you're thinking of it from the perspective that future leaders/decision makers for the project may look back and wonder, then it's a bit different. I intend to see the project through to completion, and if that's not going to be possible, then at least to a stage where there's only a few very difficult things to finish off (that is, a Beta Final stage). I'd expect that whoever I chose as successor (in the event that I only saw it through to a Beta Final stage) wouldn't change things that have already been set up, and accept them as a final decision. For example, we held a poll to decide which VC features to implement - people offered suggestions and reasons to back them up, and from that, decisions were made. People can question those decisions if they like, but ultimately they are going to have to accept them (even if the reason was purely only "discretion").

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#35

Posted 10 May 2007 - 03:45 PM

Wrt requirements, I was more speaking from a technical level - why a certain car replaced that one and so on.

Beyond that I think the project has made one single big mistake and that is labelling spin-offs as unofficial mods (only) and putting them together with others in the unofficial mod topic. If one had had, for example, included the New New York folks in time and had given them a topic within this forum, one would have been able to develop tighter cooperation and one had would have had a broader base of potential contributors. The important "unofficial mods" should have gotten their own topic in here - because there are unofficial mods of different callibre.

Alex

Craig Kostelecky
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#36

Posted 10 May 2007 - 05:07 PM

I guess we kind of saw that as being the way the forum would be run after the official mod was completed. But while it's still in development, it seemed to make more sense to throw all of the extra mods in one folder. Maybe Ben will take that in the direction you're suggesting. I see positives and negatives for both approaches.

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#37

Posted 10 May 2007 - 05:42 PM

The original aim was a direct port of GTA3 to the VC updated engine, with the understanding other additional (unofficial) modifications could be made for GTA3 whilst still using the easier VC engine. There were several restrictions with mod mapping in GTA3, paths object limits, inability to remove the map etc., creating a direct port of the game would allow modders to exploit these new avenues whilst still keeping GTA3, these would be referred to as unofficial mods. In short any feature that was not in GTA3 PC, would be an unofficial add-on to the LC mod.

Other teams had different goals; some were using the files by Pine Creek Skidz to take advantage of the new features such as flying/motobikes etc. and they would be part of the mod from the start. The other LC mods quickly lost steam whilst this one carried on. I doubt the people who helped this mod at the very start expected it to still stand unfinished many years down the line, where VC modding is now second to SA and as such fewer people are now interested in making unofficial mods. If the mod would have been finished a year or so ago, then the plan to keep it strictly GTA3 with unofficial mods would have worked a little better.

Its easy to see why people are questioning the original aim, but I'd say the simple fact is no-one thought it would take this length of time. The aim was appropriate when the mod was created, though many years down the line perhaps it would be an idea to take a look at what's best now.

SteaVor
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#38

Posted 10 May 2007 - 06:43 PM

I think we now have a mod that IS pretty much an accurate replica of GTA3, with all major gameplay elements converted and working, the atmosphere very much the same as GTA3s (especially due to AK-73's recent additions), and things like the crane or the bridge pretty much working as intended.
The only area that still needs quite some participation would be the ped conversion process.
Apart from that the mod is basically complete. It's - thanks to the launcher interface - quite customizable, and I think all this would justify a more liberal approach to 'unofficial mods', but I think that - as GT-1 already mentioned - there isn't that much interest in modding VC anymore(even though it would be so much easier for a beginner than the huge SA engine), and even less in modding a mod for VC. The 'unofficial mods' list will barely grow in the future, the discussion's too late. Establishing new guidelines simply won't matter anymore.

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#39

Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:52 PM

QUOTE (AK-73 @ May 11 2007, 01:45)
Wrt requirements, I was more speaking from a technical level - why a certain car replaced that one and so on.

Beyond that I think the project has made one single big mistake and that is labelling spin-offs as unofficial mods (only) and putting them together with others in the unofficial mod topic. If one had had, for example, included the New New York folks in time and had given them a topic within this forum, one would have been able to develop tighter cooperation and one had would have had a broader base of potential contributors. The important "unofficial mods" should have gotten their own topic in here - because there are unofficial mods of different callibre.

Alex

That would take a HUGE amount of time and research, with very little benefit for the overall project as far as I can see - if someone was interested in why certain technical aspects were set up the way they are, the most obvious answer is that it fits in with either the original or current goals of the project (which I've briefly outlined above). Craig and GT-1 were here long before I was, so their answers provide more insight obviously. Using your example of vehicle replacements, what difference does it make as to why a certain replacement was made? For modding purposes, people don't even need to know what the replacement was in most cases, but we've provided that information nonetheless, in the event it may prove to be useful. Do you know what I mean? wink.gif

Anyways, a lot of the technical information can be found from scanning through the relevant topics and reading posts that people were making as the developments occurred. Using your example again, the vehicle replacements were made for various reasons, such as door numbers, function, SFX alignment, etc. If there's something specific you'd like to know, drop me a PM and I'll try and make some time to find some answers for you smile.gif .

As for the unofficial mods, I was planning on taking an approach like Craig was suggesting. I think the fact that we've always kept the unofficial mods in the one topic has maintained more focus on the official aspects of the project. Had there been separate topics for each unofficial mod, I think official developments would've been a lot slower. As GT-1 said, modding for VC is now second to SA, which is one of the main reasons I believe the MI project ported to the SA engine. That's not something that's going to be happening with the LC project, at least not until the version on the VC engine is finished.

But as SteaVor said, we're not THAT far away from finishing. Most of the items on the checklist now are EXE and/or SCM-related. The EXE things especially, may take a great deal of time to be finished, but once they're the only things left over, LC will be pretty much in a Beta Final stage.

smile.gif

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#40

Posted 11 May 2007 - 12:22 PM

Ok, I've edited the american and american_VC-Radio GXTs with the following changes:
  • HELP61 now reads:
    You now have limitless ammo and double health on all vehicles. You are also now completely fireproof!!
  • PAGEB10 now reads:
    Rocket Launcher delivered to hideout. The Hunter is now available from Phil's army store in Rockford.
However, before I release the package, I'll need an SCM update to display two additional textboxes directly after HELP61 - these new textboxes are HELP62 and HELP63 in the GXT.
HELP62 reads:
You now have access to weapons from Vice City. Check out your hideouts and other locations around the city...
HELP63 reads:
Head to the Triad Fish Factory in Atlantic Quays for a surprise...

@Kon and SteaVor, I've emailed both of you the updated GXT package. I've added the extra two strings to all the other GXTs, because without them, the game will crash when 100% is reached if the player is using a language other than English (I think). So whichever one of you wants to change the SCM just post here. Can you also please email me the updated SCM when you're done - I'll organise hosting for it and the GXT package with MegaVovaN concurrently. Thanks smile.gif .

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SteaVor
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#41

Posted 11 May 2007 - 12:26 PM Edited by SteaVor, 11 May 2007 - 12:28 PM.

OK, I don't know if I can do it today, because I'm currently testing LC:Traffic values. tounge.gif
I've already contacted Alex because GTA:MA doesn't work for me, so it's going to be a busy day for me. I'll mail the package to you as soon as it's ready, including the SCMs and the German GXTs.

EDIT: Got the mail.

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#42

Posted 11 May 2007 - 12:29 PM

Yeah, that's fine. Whenever you get a chance - there's no real rush on it. I just had a bit of time spare and decided to get in and get the GXT updates done out of the way wink.gif . I take it you got the little CFG package I put together for you this morning? ph34r.gif

Thanks mate smile.gif .

AK-73
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#43

Posted 11 May 2007 - 02:20 PM

Well, my thinking was that (in hindsight, admittedly), it would have been better to give, for example, the people who wanted a mod that made use of all VC features in LC more room... in the sense that such a spin-off would have deserved something like a topic of its own and so on. That doesn't mean that every idea would be granted a topic of its own, just the major spin-offs (or to upgrade them from unofficial mod to spin-off if the mod had matured enough) - like New New York and so on. The point to that reasoning would have been to make the LC project as *inclusive* as possible without compromising the goals of the core LC project.

But, as they say, hindsight is always perfect, so mine is just vane talk. smile.gif

Alex

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#44

Posted 11 May 2007 - 03:53 PM

I didn't get around to tweak the Traffic values yet, but they seem to work quite well.
Instead I've done some SCM work:
  • Added the two text_box'es
  • If you found all hidden packages, the Hunter spawn at Phil's wouldn't have been triggered unless you visited the Portland hideout. I've changed the code so that the Hunter will now spawn as soon as either of the conditions is met.
  • Added a Debug Mode check inside the 100% thread, because of the max_health/armor limit at 256 (= 2^8). If you would have reached 100% in Debug Mode (impossible at the moment due to the disappearing mission triggers) or would've otherwise triggered the rewards, you would've been stuck with a max health and armor of only 94 (250 + 100 = 94, because it jumps back to 0 when it reaches 256).
And I've updated the German GXT to reflect the changes.

Get the latest SCM here!

Ben
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#45

Posted 12 May 2007 - 02:10 AM

@AK - yeah, fair enough smile.gif .

@SteaVor - Great work icon14.gif . Got your email with the GXTs too - thanks smile.gif .

Konstantinos
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#46

Posted 12 May 2007 - 08:43 AM Edited by Konstantinos, 12 May 2007 - 08:52 AM.

QUOTE (Ben @ May 11 2007, 13:22)
You now have access to weapons from Vice City.  Check out your hideouts and other locations around the city...

Personally, I'm against scattering the reward weapons all around the city. It's confusing, it isn't done like that in any GTA game, and it puts us at risk of hitting the pickup spawn limit. I'd really just leave them at hideouts.

@SteaVor: Yeah, I realized too late that I should've put the 014C to all three $FLAG_100_HIDDEN_PACKAGES checks (*slaps himself*). Quite a fruitful cooperation we're having, eh? smile.gif

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#47

Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:08 AM

The pickup spawn limit doesn't matter because we don't need to add more pickups than we already have. Anything else is a Bonus and I don't see anything wrong with spending the last few slots for additional weapons at special/hard-to-reach places.

I've removed 014C from the hideout checks completely, instead I've analyzed how 100 HPs can be reached in LC, and that left only two instances in the code that needed the spawn activation code: regular collection or setting $MASTERLCPACKAGESCOMPLETED to TRUE. I think this covers every possible way to trigger 100HP rewards.

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#48

Posted 12 May 2007 - 12:23 PM

QUOTE (SteaVor)
I've removed 014C from the hideout checks completely, instead I've analyzed how 100 HPs can be reached in LC, and that left only two instances in the code that needed the spawn activation code: regular collection or setting $MASTERLCPACKAGESCOMPLETED to TRUE. I think this covers every possible way to trigger 100HP rewards.

I think it would be neater to keep it tied to $FLAG_100_HIDDEN_PACKAGES rather than put it directly into the package sniffer thread. But that's not so important.

There is probably enough room for the "higgledy-piggledy" VC weapon spawns. I know for a fact that 60 over the basic LC setup is too much, with 21 at hideouts we should be able to afford some more. But that still leaves the uselesness of it - why search for them all over the city when you have them at hideouts? And the fact that it's confusing and unprecendented in GTA.

I'd just like to hear from ben that it's his final word on this. Then I'll gladly shut up about it smile.gif

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#49

Posted 12 May 2007 - 01:32 PM Edited by SteaVor, 12 May 2007 - 01:34 PM.

QUOTE (Konstantinos @ May 12 2007, 14:23)
I think it would be neater to keep it tied to $FLAG_100_HIDDEN_PACKAGES rather than put it directly into the package sniffer thread.

All these HP flags are only used to create the pickups at the hideouts. If you're adding the activation line there, then the activation line will be executed every time you visit the hideout that you enabled it for. If you would've found the last package and were heading to Phil's to use the Hunter, you wouldn't have found it there because you would've to have visited a hideout at least once. It's unnecessary when it can as well be done by adding a single line around the "PAGEB10" textbox code.


And regarding the VC wepons:
I simply don't see anything wrong with adding them. I can't think of negative consequences of scattering them throughout the city.

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#50

Posted 13 May 2007 - 09:32 AM

I don't really mind either way, actually. I only went with the hideouts AND city approach because when it was first discussed, Craig mentioned that he'd probably have a few scattered throughout the city. And seeing as we'll be using Kon's little script as the basis for setting up the VC weapons, we'd therefore have weapons throughout the city and at the hideouts. As you both know, I'm not up on SCM'ing, and I've no idea about the limits or anything - I haven't even checked out Kon's script yet confused.gif .

So, let's just go with the hideouts AND city approach for a minute. How many pickups do we have left to use (assuming we use Kon's VC weapons script unaltered)? From that, what locations around the city would you propose?

I think the answer to those two questions will give a much better indication as to the precise direction we want to head with this wink.gif .

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#51

Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:29 PM

OK, fair enough.
There is a comment and an inactive piece of code in the SCM that hints at Craig's original intention...
CODE
;; Add VC weapons to hidden areas
- the very first line
CODE
;VC Weapons, not yet done!         ;TODO
:LabelVCWeaponsSetUp
;00D6: if  0
;0038:   $MASTERLCEXTRAS1 ==  1
;004D: jump_if_false ££LabelLCSubSUWReturn
;032B: $VCW1       = create_weapon_pickup #TEARGAS      15 ammo  30 at  1327.5  -717.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW2       = create_weapon_pickup #PYTHON       15 ammo  30 at  1327.5  -722.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW3       = create_weapon_pickup #RUGER        15 ammo  30 at  1327.5  -727.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW4       = create_weapon_pickup #SHOTGSPA     15 ammo  30 at  1321.5  -717.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW5       = create_weapon_pickup #CHROMEGUN    15 ammo  30 at  1321.5  -722.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW6       = create_weapon_pickup #TEC9         15 ammo  30 at  1321.5  -727.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW7       = create_weapon_pickup #INGRAMSL     15 ammo  30 at  1315.5  -717.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW8       = create_weapon_pickup #M60          15 ammo  30 at  1315.5  -722.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW9       = create_weapon_pickup #MINIGUN      15 ammo  30 at  1315.5  -727.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW10      = create_weapon_pickup #LASER        15 ammo  30 at  1306.5  -717.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW11      = create_weapon_pickup #BRASSKNUCKLE 15 ammo  30 at  1306.5  -722.0  29.75
;032B: $VCW12      = create_weapon_pickup #SCREWDRIVER  15 ammo  30 at  1306.5  -727.0  29.75
;0213: $VCW13      = create_pickup        #GOLFCLUB     15          at  -862.5  1061.0  43.8
;0213: $VCW14      = create_pickup        #NITESTICK    15          at  -862.5  1058.0  43.8
;0213: $VCW15      = create_pickup        #KNIFECUR     15          at  -862.5  1055.0  43.8
;0213: $VCW16      = create_pickup        #HAMMER       15          at  -862.5  1052.0  43.8

The weapons wouldn't be scattered over the city, but spawned in groups - in areas only accesible with a heli. The first part is on the EV ship, the second in ghost town. Not a bad idea if you ask me, although I'd replace ghost town with some other place, like the Stadium. Of course, the decision is yours Ben, so decide where you want what to appear.

There are 21 weapons left from VC (not counting the camera, which we probably don't want to use), including the semi-functional tear gas. Now the pickup limit of VC is 336, but don't ask me how many are already being used in LC. All I know is that 60 above the current setup is too much and 22 is OK.

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#52

Posted 13 May 2007 - 03:47 PM Edited by SteaVor, 13 May 2007 - 04:25 PM.

It's even worse, Konstantinos:
My test results indicate that we might just have hit the limit with 22 additional weapons at hideouts.
Adding exactly 11 more means that there wil be exactly 11 pickups missing at I/E garages, adding 3 pickups means there will be 3 pickups missing.
It's however possible to add 2 pickup spawns without any other disappearing, but I don't know whether that could make new issues arise. confused.gif

I think we shouldn't add any additional spawns to avoid unpredictable issues. This means that we have to change the GXTs once more, though. turn.gif

EDIT: I don't know to which extent the HPs influence the spawn limit - since the VC weapons are to be spawned when there aren't any hidden packages anymore, it might work - when I disabled the hidden packages (set to 0) I was able to add at least 44 weapon spawns without any visible problems, 66 do NOT work however.
I have no idea though if not allowing the HP to be spawned at all is equal to having collected all of them.

Craig Kostelecky
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#53

Posted 13 May 2007 - 05:25 PM

Kon: Hammer picked those coordinates after we discussed it many moons ago. And yes the idea that we had was to make the weapons in places that you can reach, only with VC's new transportation options. That idea was never set in stone though.

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#54

Posted 14 May 2007 - 04:55 PM

If I may butt in here on the issue of weapon pickups: changing the available moves in fistfite.dat from 32 to unlimited wasn't too difficult. I did that within one day. Now granted - pickups may very well be much more difficult. That's not to say it can't be done.

It's just I won't do it (at least not in the foreseeable future). wink.gif Gotta ask MM about that. smile.gif

Alex


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#55

Posted 14 May 2007 - 10:09 PM

I'm happy to leave you guys to play around with that and see what you can come up with. Given the notes left in the SCM, I think it might be better to stick with the original intentions. But I only count 16 weapons in that segment, Kon - where are the other 5? If you can get it to work with all 21, you can stick the other 5 in the Stadium wink.gif . If there are problems with pickups disappearing and what-not, then we'll have to just comment the weapons section out until we can work out how to increase the pickup limit.

That'll also save me having to change the GXT again tounge.gif .

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#56

Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:16 AM

Here is the list of weapons left from VC...
Brass Knuckles
Hammer, Golf club, Nightstick, Screwdriver, Knife, Meat cleaver, Machette, Katana, Chainsaw
Colt Python
Tec-9, Ingram
Chrome shotgun, SPAS-12
Ruger
Remote bombs, Tear gas
M60, Minigun
PSG-1

21 in total. Since the original idea was abandoned/postponed indefinitely, they didn't bother to set coordinates for all of them. No mystery. turn.gif
Until we (read: ModelingMan smile.gif ) can hack the pickup limit, we can have either hideouts or hidden areas. Not both.

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#57

Posted 16 May 2007 - 05:45 AM

How about we add the extra 5 weapons to the SCM now, and just comment the extra lines out as well? Then it's just a simple case of removing the ; for each line when MM increases the pickup limit. Seeing as they are done in groups of 3, we'll just change the hammer and stick it with 2 of the remaining 5. I'm thinking we can use both ends of the stadium for the extra weapons (3 at one end, and 3 at the other). Thoughts?

By the way, that would mean that we are going with an "around the city only" approach - none at the hideouts wink.gif .

Also, as Kon mentioned, that list doesn't include the camera. Do we want to include it in LC?

I think we might as well - at this stage, I'm thinking we just include it at the hideouts. We should be able to code that in now (without commenting out the lines) - it's only 3 extra pickups. That is, of course, assuming that people actually want to see it in LC. Thoughts on this as well?

smile.gif

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#58

Posted 17 May 2007 - 01:48 PM

You should really make bikes ride in the traffic...I hate the FAGgio...

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#59

Posted 17 May 2007 - 03:58 PM Edited by Konstantinos, 17 May 2007 - 04:49 PM.

Alright. I made a working version of the script with the spawn coordinates pinpointed for hideouts / EV ship + Stadium. Since we can't have both, there are two sets of compiled SCMs - with either the Hideout of Hidden places spawns disabled. The EV ship coordinates are based on Hammer83's, original inactive code was deleted (but I forgot to delete the comment "add VC weapons to hidden areas", lol).
There is a new testing variable - $MASTERLC100COMPLETED, when set to 1 it gives you all the SCM-controlled rewards. Otherwise the spawns would be quite difficult to test smile.gif It's active in the files starting with "test". I wanted to make this ready for use, so I compiled all the possible combinations (spawning place, 100 active, debug active)
All 21 VC weapons will spawn - camera not included. We don't want that in the official script - It's not a pickable weapon in VC (or a weapon at all), and the way weapon slots are set in LC, it would replace sniper rifle.

Download here

Screenshots:

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johnny404
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#60

Posted 17 May 2007 - 05:23 PM

yahoo^^ but i still waiting for PCJ600, sanchez and freeways (and some faggios) in portland^^
Nice work



Regards.

Jony.




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