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K^2
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#31

Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:58 PM

QUOTE (Severe @ May 2 2007, 10:46)
I would quite like to see some sort of dirigible, or blimp, in the game. Assasinating someone from such a vessel does not seem that unrealistic of a mission, at least not to me. I wouldn't mind a hot air balloon either.

This could work out in some very neat ways. You'd want the dirigible have similar enter/exist system to boats, so that while flying it, you can "exit" the control area, and walk around the gondola, so that you could, for example, shoot someone using a sniper rifle.

soleil
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#32

Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:02 PM

Yeah I know people don't own helicopters. But the helicopters are there for other reasons--police, news media, emergency medical response, maybe even military. So that's why a city should have plenty of helicopters. Planes would be mostly commercial airliners, or military. But none of those are meant for intracity travel--whereas the majority of helicopters are. Intercity travel airplanes would have to be basically be limited to those that you mentioned... licensed pilots renting planes. But that also seems like a silly reason to implement planes in the next game.

It seems more like you are looking for an excuse for planes to be in the game, rather than looking for things that make sense to be in the game. If putting planes in GTA makes sense on the basis that there are people who do it recreationally, then the same logic would apply to kayaking, skiing, snowboarding, rafting, sailboating, etc. You don't see those in the game. Just because people do it doesn't mean it makes sense to make it a high enough priority to put it in the game.

Ideally, a donkey ranching game would have everything in it. But in the world we live in where game makers have to choose, I don't see recreational private jets being a high enough priority simply because there are a few licensed pilots who rent private planes to fly from Point A to Point A. Things that have a purpose get priority--and copters have so much purpose within one city. Planes don't have much purpose within one city... just that one that you mentioned, which isn't important for the operation of a city.

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#33

Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:17 PM

Don't worry about the planes. Its likely that Rockstar will redo Vice City and San Andreas like they're doing with Liberty City. Thats when we will get to fly again and possibly all three states will be connected in one giant, massive world to fly around in. You can expect the Hydra to be replaced by the F-35B Lightning VTOL. Maybe you'll be able to dogfight in WWI and WWII planes, and when you freefall you can do flips and stunts. Theres no doubt that there will be a fabric wingsuit/parachute item.

K^2
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#34

Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:22 PM

I'd say that the number of helicopters used for travel in the city is equal in number to planes used for recreational flying. Yes, there are a bunch of helicopters for other things, like police and news as you mentioned, but private citizens have no access to these, just like they have no access to passenger air liners.

There are two ways to go about it. First, you ask what transportation systems are reasonable for someone to use in NYC. In that case, you'll end up with ground transportation alone, because very few people say, "Hey, I need to go to 5th and 32nd, so I'm going to grab a helicopter." Or you can ask what vehicles would make the game more interesting to play, while still not being too much of a stretch. Then you end up concluding that both helicopters and airplanes should be in, since they are both possible to obtain in NYC.

soleil
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#35

Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:36 PM

Private citizens don't have access to helicopters, but one of the staples of GTA is that we steal things that most people don't have access to, such as law enforcement vehicles, emergency response vehicles, and other things used by the government. You put things in GTA not just because they are used by the common citizen, but also because the government uses them. A lot of the GTA feel is "You versus the authorities."

I think there are more than just 2 ways to look at it. Basically, you should look at it from all angles, and add up the scoresheet.

1) Is it typically used by commoners?

2) Is it typically used by the government?

3) Does it make sense for one city?

Helicopters: 1) No. 2) Yes. 3) Yes.

Private Jets: 1) No. 2) No. 3) Only recreationally.

As you can see, Helicopters make way more sense overall.

K^2
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#36

Posted 02 May 2007 - 05:29 PM

If you are going to steal it, and you are going to fly it, why does it matter if typically it is used for intracity or intercity flight? If you are saying that Niko should be able to break into the police heliport and steal a police helicopter, why can't he break into the airport, and grab one of the Learjets that is just sitting there? Sure, normally it is used by its rightful owner to fly to the nation's capital on important business, but you are the one flying it now.

soleil
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#37

Posted 02 May 2007 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE (K^2 @ May 2 2007, 17:29)
If you are going to steal it, and you are going to fly it, why does it matter if typically it is used for intracity or intercity flight? If you are saying that Niko should be able to break into the police heliport and steal a police helicopter, why can't he break into the airport, and grab one of the Learjets that is just sitting there? Sure, normally it is used by its rightful owner to fly to the nation's capital on important business, but you are the one flying it now.

Well you can. If I had it my way, everything would be in the game, including planes. But I am saying when you are working on a new platform and have to pick and choose what to put into the game (cause they are apparently going for quality over quantity), I would choose helicopters based on the above criteria.

I am sure R* could put planes in there, but since this is a new console, and they are trying to make every feature be amazing, it would be have to be much more than just taking what they have in SA and sticking it into IV. They probably had to make a choice because of some logistical problems on multiple levels. It sounds to me like the game is being rebuilt from the ground up, so it's not an "add things to SA" operation.

K^2
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#38

Posted 02 May 2007 - 06:09 PM

I don't see why they have to chose between airplanes and helicopters. If you put in one, putting in the other is piece of cake. You already have to make sure that the city looks alright from above, that rooftops are solid, that the engine can handle vehicles moving twice as fast as cars, that the vehicle system can handle vehicles that may not be surface bound, you already add code for simple aerodynamics imitation, et cetera. To add planes, you pretty much just need the models, and they'll have to make them anyways for the airport. Again, its both or neither kind of situation.

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#39

Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE (GycuBrun @ May 1 2007, 15:32)
Guys, seriously stop crying after planes...you don`t need planes...Why? Because
--Helicopters are partially confirmed
user posted image
--Also a cable car is partially confirmed-seen in the trailer-but not sure 100% if it`s usable.
---->So I have some ideas that I haven`t seen mentioned before about flying in LibertyCity if you don`t have planes

--Here are a few pics: ( I dunno the English name of this )

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image


--And of course a Hot air baloon
user posted image
user posted image

So I think that there are tons of other flying machines who can replace a plane

I dunno if R* tought at this or not

So what do you think about my ideas?

If you find the topic bad...rate it bad
If you find the topic good...rate it good
Don`t rate it if you don`t want to...

They also announced an airport in the game. But what realy confuse's me is that why would they have an airport with no planes to fly.**PleaseDontQuote**!

MJ2k
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#40

Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:57 PM

I think the reason for leaving out planes could well be to do with speed difference between planes and helis.

Obviously it very easy to limit the speed of a helicopter in game without it looking unrealistic, since a helicopter can hover and travel at low speed anyway.

But planes, to be realistic, have a minimum speed before they stall.
I looked up the stall speed for a basic cessna here, so if they were going for realism, a plane like the dodo would need to be travelling at least 50 knots (about 60mph) just to stay in the air.

And at that speed the map is probably going to feel quite small.
It wouldn't bother me if I'm honest, but I can sort of see their reasoning.

Also I always found it kind of silly how you could fly at such stupidly slow speeds in previous GTAs. Even in the Hydra at top speed, you would still be traveling relatively slowly. And in the skimmer you could almost hover it traveled so slowly.

Mister Zero
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#41

Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:02 PM

I think the inclusion of the Little Willie (as a standard vehicle or as an easter egg) is mandatory:

user posted image

I found it really useful, but it was a right bastard when you had to buy a new one each time. Still, it limited your use of it at times and made piloting it all the more special.

soleil
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#42

Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE (MJ2K)
(what he said)


Yeah, I guess that's it probably. K^2 made a good point that it probably wouldn't be hard to add planes once helis are in, and he did show that it takes a couple minutes on Flight Simulator to cross NYC... I think the problem is that travel in GTA is actually accelerated by nature... (I don't mean gametime verus real time)

In Los Angeles it takes like 40 minutes to cross town with no traffic (Traffic is bad, so with traffic it's easily more than a couple hours). But in Los Santos, you'd drive across town in like what, 3-4 minutes? Travel time is purposely cut short...

Thus maybe it just would be a too-fast experience. What was it, K^2? 2 minutes in your Flight Simulator to cross town or something like that? If that's realistic, then it would probably be like 30 seconds in a plane to cross the Liberty City map. I'm just guessing here. It's not like Rockstar has anything against planes, and I don't buy the whole sensitivity to 9/11 thing cause they had planes in the past.

K^2
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#43

Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:38 PM

It was about 2 minutes on a Learjet 45 (Think Shamal), traveling at over 300 knots. You'd be going at a 3rd of that on something like a Cesna 172/182, which is what Dodo is copied off. And yeah, the LC will probably be a bit smaller than the real NYC, but you should still get 3-4 minutes flying across.
QUOTE
I think the inclusion of the Little Willie (as a standard vehicle or as an easter egg) is mandatory

I got an idea after looking at this helicopter. An autogyro, which typically looks a lot like a Little Willie in VCS, would be an interesting circumvention of the "no airplanes" thing. It is a rotorcraft that flies a lot like a fixed wing, but has much lower stall speeds and better STOL capabilities.

Mister Zero
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#44

Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:39 PM

I suppose having one of those choppers in would increase the exploratory factor in terms of snooping round buildings and rooftops. It'd give the city a whole new dimension.

K^2
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#45

Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:53 PM

Yeah, but you can use bigger helicopters for that anyways. Autogyro would be something different. By the way, apparently you can perform an no-roll landing on an autogyro, so if you really need to, you can land in almost any place where a helicopter could. You would need some more space to take off from, though.

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#46

Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:18 PM

If the jetpack is too unreal for the game, what about the following:
user posted image

K^2
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#47

Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:27 PM

I hope he has his will written.

Mister Zero
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#48

Posted 03 May 2007 - 07:51 AM

I think a cheesy B Movie looking Jetpack wouldn't go amiss in IV. I can imagine coughing and spluttering around on one.

user posted image

Oooh yes.

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#49

Posted 03 May 2007 - 08:05 AM

I think when they included aircraft in SA they didn't realise how small they made the map look. San Andreas had a huge map yet once in a hydra or the other jet it was ridiculously easy to get from one area of the map to the other. In IV they are going to have a smaller footprint but, they say, greater verticality. Verticality is lost on aircraft. If you get a plane chances are you'll fly high above the rooftops. And then people bred on SA will get bored because the map is small. All the work they (R*) did on the verticality wouldn't be evident.

A helicopter, by contrast, is slow. And I can clearly see them putting in an altitude restriction that would see us pottering about just inches above the tallest skyscraper. That would mean us having to navigate our way through the city they built (not above it) and the size discrepancy wouldn't be a problem. If I had a light Dodoesque aircraft I would most probably try to fly my way through the streets, but not everyone would do that. And I guess R* doesn't want legions of 13 year old crybabies grumbling because "San Andreas was bigger0rz and you could do greater d0gfights0rz".

Mister Zero
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#50

Posted 03 May 2007 - 08:08 AM

QUOTE (farrugia @ May 3 2007, 09:05)
I think when they included aircraft in SA they didn't realise how small they made the map look. San Andreas had a huge map yet once in a hydra or the other jet it was ridiculously easy to get from one area of the map to the other.

That's a good point, I could get from one side to the other in a matter of seconds.

QUOTE
If I had a light Dodoesque aircraft I would most probably try to fly my way through the streets, but not everyone would do that.


Something that had the same lift as the Dodo would be cool, something that takes real skill to pilot.

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#51

Posted 03 May 2007 - 08:41 AM

Microlights would be cool, balloons would not.

I really hope they bring back the jetpack and the parachute though. They were brilliant biggrin.gif

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#52

Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:28 PM

QUOTE (farrugia @ May 3 2007, 04:05)
A helicopter, by contrast, is slow.

Where do you keep getting that? A helicopter can fly slow, but it can also fly fast. A top speed for a typical turbine powered helicopter is about the same as for a typical single engine propeller airplane. And yes, minimal speed for a helicopter is hover, but minimal speed for an airplane is also reasonable. Most can fly as slow as vehicles on a highway. If you put in something like an ultralight, cut both the maximum and minimum speeds in half, and you get something that is only faster than a car to get around because it can take shortcuts.

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#53

Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:34 PM

QUOTE (K^2 @ May 3 2007, 13:28)
QUOTE (farrugia @ May 3 2007, 04:05)
A helicopter, by contrast, is slow.

Where do you keep getting that? A helicopter can fly slow, but it can also fly fast. A top speed for a typical turbine powered helicopter is about the same as for a typical single engine propeller airplane. And yes, minimal speed for a helicopter is hover, but minimal speed for an airplane is also reasonable. Most can fly as slow as vehicles on a highway. If you put in something like an ultralight, cut both the maximum and minimum speeds in half, and you get something that is only faster than a car to get around because it can take shortcuts.

OK sorry my mistake. A helicopter in GTA, by contrast, is slow.

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#54

Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:36 PM

Helis are my favorite veh there.
I hope there'll be something like..
VCN Maverick.

farrugia
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#55

Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:44 PM

I'm hoping that helicopters will be used much more than in previous GTAs. Houser mentioned helicopters being a part of NYC life, and I hope this makes its way into the game. Apart from police and news helicopters as in SA I want there to be "rich dude ferry" helicopters ferrying businessmen to skyscraper helipads, much like taxis. And I want this to be continuously going on, not just when you're on the helipad. This will give a greater feeling of detachment between the poor guys on the street who have to endure the crime and carjackings and the privileged elite "up there" who don't even have to get stuck in traffic to go to work. Then I guess some people with Bolshie instincts would hijack such helicopters just to make the rich capitalist scream in terror... sigh

I'm also in favour of a microlight/ultralight (the smaller of the two, with the open canopy - sorry K^2 for not looking back for the definition) since as far as speed is concerned it would be similar to a heli, only cooler.

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#56

Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:19 PM

QUOTE (farrugia)
Apart from police and news helicopters as in SA I want there to be "rich dude ferry" helicopters ferrying businessmen to skyscraper helipads, much like taxis.

That needs to be an R3 mission.

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#57

Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:22 PM

QUOTE (K^2 @ May 3 2007, 14:19)
QUOTE (farrugia)
Apart from police and news helicopters as in SA I want there to be "rich dude ferry" helicopters ferrying businessmen to skyscraper helipads, much like taxis.

That needs to be an R3 mission.

I agree, as long as the feature's existence isn't limited to the R3 mission. It's a major disappointment in all the latest GTAs that several features only exist if you're doing, else nobody else does.

K^2
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#58

Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:41 PM

Yeah. It should be similar to the way taxis work. They drive around; they pick up and drop off people. You can jack one, and do the same to make some extra cash. Also, it would be neat to have some cool flying machine as a reward for 100 passengers, or something. Similar to these cool taxis you got for 100 passengers in previous GTAs.

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#59

Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:59 PM

Air taxi idea worked well on SA:MP, so I don't see why it can't be included.

I'd love to see an ultralight in IV, but really I don't see it happening much really. Probs only have one airport like III and VC and a limited supply of airborne vehicles to reflect that.

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#60

Posted 03 May 2007 - 03:59 PM

There are plenty of places where you can land an STOL ultralight like an autogyro, though. You only need about 25 feet of runway to take off with some models, short enough to take off from some helipads. And the landing can be performed with a steep approach and no roll (zero speed at touchdown).

Of course, an autogyro doesn't give you anything new over a helicopter, neither in terms of speed nor ability to take off from tight places. They are cheaper, more efficient, and easier to fly than helicopters, but these benefits are non-existent in GTA. However, they would provide some diversity in IV's fleet.




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