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Myriad City Council changes

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BenMillard
  • BenMillard

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#1

Posted 04 February 2007 - 04:58 PM

The Myriad City Council group hasn't been updated for a long time. It doesn't really reflect the people who are calling the shots and driving MISA's current development.

On IRC, myself and other MISA contributors figured out who needs to be added and who could be taken off. We enacted these changes through JernejL (formerly "Delfi").

People we removed from the group:People we added to the group:
  • GForce - builds the official install packages.
  • Aad - has been managing GTI lots for a long time.
  • TRN4L - will be assisting Aad with managing GTI.
These changes were unanimous amongst the people on IRC at the time. Hopefully they won't be too controversial. smile.gif

Mark
  • Mark

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#2

Posted 04 February 2007 - 10:05 PM

I see no issues with that. Here here lol.

Diesel
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#3

Posted 05 February 2007 - 08:06 AM

I still pop in now and again and try to have a hand in development of the city smile.gif But, whatever.

mickarrow
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#4

Posted 05 February 2007 - 08:04 PM Edited by mickarrow, 06 February 2007 - 12:22 AM.

I'd like to know what's the function of the MCC? Is it calling the shots? Driving MISA? Then either there's too much or too little people in it.

Imo opinion, either discharge the idea of an MCC and have normal ledby's, or hold a proper poll or something, and do a decent clean-up of the past...


Edit::

QUOTE
These changes were unanimous amongst the people on IRC at the time.


I see the MCC has allready been updated to this "decision".
Making decisions depending on who's on irc at a certain time isn't at all the MI spirit you say you're so fond off. It reflects the view of only a percent of who's (apparently) involved with MI.
The mutual feeling on irc when I checked in was that making decisions on irc was easier and made the progress of MI happening faster, whereas the forum here on GTAF was only the public face of MI, for so-called 'official' decisions to be made public. If that's the case I guess it's only fair then to stop calling it a CMP, or call it an irc-CMP...
I guess (I have to guess, I wasn't there at the time) when this was discussed on irc, your seat in the MCC was unanimous agreed upon, and wasn't questioned by anyone?

Snow Racer
  • Snow Racer

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#5

Posted 06 February 2007 - 06:12 AM Edited by Snow Racer, 06 February 2007 - 06:29 AM.

as I said and as someone said age ago

QUOTE
the Myriad City Council group was made for moderate MI forum and nothing else


don't make it so hard Cerb... it is not the MI gang where all the active project people is...

less people to moderate forum less confusion and trouble

edit-- by your thinking we all should be op's in IRC channel and ban each other with a trout

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

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#6

Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:01 PM

Snow Racer, I don't think the MICC is just for moderating this forum. People could be set as led-bys of this area without making a special member group. My understanding is that the MICC is for people who manage an aspect of the project, somewhat like a real city council, as well as for moderating this area?

Diesel, you used to manage the vehicles so you're position on MICC made sense. But these days, Snow Racer and SeaNorris seem to be doing all the vehicle management. If you're going to become active enough to warrant an MICC position, I'd be happy to recommend the change.

Mickarrow, since the forums 500 so much it's not very practical to make them the base for day-to-day operations. You're right that my position on the MICC wasn't discussed. Neither was Snow Racer's. It seemed widely agreed what the changes should be.

Diesel
  • Diesel

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#7

Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:00 PM

QUOTE
If you're going to become active enough to warrant an MICC position, I'd be happy to recommend the change.


Cerb, I think the problem is that you think people care about your 'recommendations'.

That was harshly phrased, but, I can't think of any way to put it. Your priorities are all messed up.

For quite a while now you've been "working" on Myriad, pointing people left and right and making them do work for you. But frankly, from what I've seen, it's just not fun anymore. The way you deal with situations gives the impression that the goal for Myriad is to have a completed, fully playable brand new TC, and nothing can stand in the way. The reality is different: people model and map and all those other little things because it's FUN. Nobody wants to work in the "proper", professional way, under a slavedriver boss, because then it becomes more like work and less like an entertaining pastime.

This is epitomised recently by your arguements about the structure of the highway interchanges, and pleasantly summed up by your lovely comment here to Loco:

QUOTE
If you refuse to follow the plan, I'll have to find someone else.


Which is just frankly, way the F*CK out of line. I also find amusing your comments on "disrespecting the community's plan", because so far as I can see it, the "community's plan" consists of you proposing something, people argueing against it because it won't be any fun in game, you stubbornly sticking to it, until eventually everyone gives up and it looks like you won.


Look, I'm going to be honest here. I've spoken to others who feel the same. Yes, work has progressed more since you kicked it off such as the tunnels and the railway. But frankly, I preferred it when we didn't get so much done but had a laugh in the process. I don't know about everyone else but I'm here because I enjoy it, not because I want to see Myriad released at any cost.


The MCC group isn't for moderating the forums (though that's a perk) or to signify the people who get to make the big decisions. It's a thing for friends and respected contributors. Again, you miss the whole point of the project - we don't WANT to do it the professional, hyper-efficient way. It's a bit of fun on the side and it needs to stay that way or nobody will want to participate.

Your 'recommendation' had me removed from the Council group, but GT-1 added me back again, because (I suppose) he knows and respects me and my opinions on the topics I contribute to.

If anyone should have their MCC status revoked, I feel it should be you. confused.gif

Gforce
  • Gforce

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#8

Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:13 PM Edited by Gforce, 06 February 2007 - 05:14 PM.

i've had a new isp for just over a week now and so far all i'm seeing is forum politic's, be it in the staff room over this MiCC or be it the direction that MI is going regarding tunnel networks.

feel free to remove me from the council again, i really can't be arsed getting involved in the B******t, i never requested it and i'm not interested in the problems it's causing.

Edit: i just thought i should clarify my view of this following quote ........

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Feb 4 2007, 16:58)
GForce - calls the shots on building 0.6 release.


i am not calling the shots on anything, all i do is bolt together the things that contributors have decided they want included, there are a lot of active participating member's using the irc channel these days and it is they who have decided what is included or not included, the decisions are not actually made by me, i just bolt it all together.

the only decisions i have made recently have been related to the way the New north islands layout has been cut up (because it is me doing the job!!)and the allowance of using 15 ID's per lot. and none of these decisions are final until i've run all the files past the person who made the islands anyway and that person is illspirit.

Mark
  • Mark

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#9

Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:47 PM

Right if we're talking about suggestion of who gets to be on it and who doesn't, I've got no issues with it at all.

Now, for it's use, I think apart from being the ones responsible for keeping track of certain problems like car lists, lot lists etc, aka extra duties that are being done for the good of the mod, and for being led-bys, the MICC should have no other influence over the direction than anyone. After all, it's a community project for a reason. Man with the strangle hold some people in here are suggesting that the MICC should have over the project, hows about someone write up planning permission requirements and building regulations while they're at it? notify.gif

I believe many people, far more than those who have MICC status, have had a say in recent aspects of the project (trains, tunnels etc), so really, unless you're going to give every damn contributor MICC status, why should the responsibilty of choosing what's good for the mod fall on a select few, who from previous actions may deserve the title, won't have all the ideas in the world that the whole community can provide.

Yes I know a large group acting democratically is ground for major time-wasteage, but as can be seen on recent projects, if one person feels strongly about it and effectively makes that aspect of the project their baby, it works. Regardless of whether they are MICC or not. Who turns out to be the leader of this aspect of the project however, is up to those involved to decide on an almost subconcious level.

As mick said, there's either too many, or too few with the status. I'd like to add to that point by saying it is only the right amount if responsibilities are what I have listed above.

The only way to get things done well via a select number of people is to have a rank structure enforced, and can I see that happening? Don't make me laugh. A council or something of a similar nature must be elected, not chosen by those who are part of it.

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

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#10

Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:27 PM

The scope for the group as I understood it was people who manage important aspects of the mod so they can run the relevant topics effectively.

GTAuron, that's pretty much the model for the MICC I had in mind. However, asking everyone what they think before doing everything and going through everyone's ideas in exhaustive detail slows things down a lot. The planning for the railway demonstrated that pretty well! tounge.gif So a balance has to be struck and that's the role for the MICC, imho.

Here's how the MICC group currently stands:Out of these, the only change I'd like to see is removing Diesel. He doesn't manage vehicles and hasn't done so since the Vice City days. Snow Racer is probably the nearest we have to a vehicles manager in MISA now. Being on the MICC shouldn't be used as a gold watch for retired contributors! tounge.gif

Mark
  • Mark

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#11

Posted 09 February 2007 - 04:31 AM

I'm not saying consult everyone. Really, restructuring of this place is essential. This project is run on IRC mostly now, the IRC channel and how to get IRC working should be a lot more advertised, so we can get suggestions that way. Anyone who can't use IRC can just post in a suggestions/ideas threas where they'll be treated the same as any IRC suggestions. Things in this project, whilst needing to be clarified for about..say a month for any further ideas/developments, need to get moving if this mod is to keep it's momentum up. It's a shame that progress and democracy really aren't meant to go hand in hand, but really, the mine needs to be drawn somewhere, just would be nice if everyone is given a change to contribute, not just the MICC as suggested. A fixed timeframe for ideas, rather than a fixed number of members to make the ideas would be a better idea.

That's my 2 cents anyway. the MICC should not be used in any other means than forum moderation and for people to be visible targets for consultation about stuff cause everyone in the MICC should know pretty much every aspect of the mod.

Keeping the ideas side of the project exclusive to certain people is robbing this "CMP" of it's "C" so to speak.

mickarrow
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#12

Posted 09 February 2007 - 04:30 PM

If the MCC is just the name of a group of led-bys, then what's the different between the MCC led-bys and the other ones (GT-1, illspirit, Diesel, SAdmAc, REspawn, steve-m, Opius)? Will they get integrated in your MCC, or is the MCC going to be deleted and all members be made ledby's as is?


QUOTE
Cerbera - manages tunnel network and railway route. (Is also the de-facto coordinator of many other aspects including the air infrastructure, ferries and ships and dynamic water until someone else picks them up. Also maintains the MISA 0.5 install guide.)


Manages? Is that the word that means 'I let other people do the actual work'? 'Cause for the tunnels as well as the railway road, I've only seen you draw lines on the map and search for documentation on the internet. True, that documentation goes into great detail (sometimes too much) and has proven to come in handy very well, but it's basically just research and ideas. By that rule anyone who posts ideas and documents them well enough is fit to a place in the MCC.
As for managing the air-infrasturucture, that topic got rolling by GTAuron
and has been replied upon by all of us.
Managing ferries and ships is like saying 'I manage bus stations, make me some and I say where they suit best'. It's not a job to be frowned upon, but it also isn't something that needs intensive managment. Basic forum-based decisions by the community could do that trick for you.
Now the water.dat I know you've been working on. But still, imo it's a tedious task that needs to be done in close cooperation with who makes the tunnels, but has nothing to do with taking decisions over the rest of MI.

GT-1
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#13

Posted 09 February 2007 - 05:14 PM

The MICC group was created because the poll creation attribute cannot be assigned to individual users, only groups. Members in the group were already forum led-by's, the only difference is the ability to create polls. Those chosen happened to be many of the most active contributors to the project, logically this makes sense given the previously stated reasons.

The name "Myriad City Council" was decided between myself, illspirit and sAdIsTiCmAcHiNe; It bares little relevance to who has the "final say", this is a Community project. DieselGT has contributed to the project from the start, it's felt he can still help the project move forward.

Mickarrow's and DieselGT make interesting points which I fully support. Recent discussions that have arisen lead me to believe the group has almost outgrown its original intentions; instead of it just been a group of led-by's who can create polls it seems to have become a higher power label (this discussion wouldn't have arisen otherwise). One member who over the last year(s) has put a large amount of effort into the project, and could easily take more of the accolades than some recently have, is Gforce. As you can see in the below post, he still sees this as a Community project and is open to community involvement... a few others could take a similar line.

QUOTE (Gforce)
i am not calling the shots on anything, all i do is bolt together the things that contributors have decided they want included, there are a lot of active participating member's using the irc channel these days and it is they who have decided what is included or not included, the decisions are not actually made by me, i just bolt it all together.


The Liberty City Community project has had 30+ contributes over the years, and at most 3 led-by's. If it worked for them then I'm sure it can work here, perhaps cutting the group and assigning only led-by's (who need it) would be the answer? Either that or removing any led-by properties the group has and throwing everyone into it... This is a community project where people can come and leave as they please which might lead the latter to be fairly pointless.

Gforce
  • Gforce

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#14

Posted 09 February 2007 - 05:42 PM

i'm really tring to avoid getting involved in all this but here's the way i see things.

The Myriad City Council is in essence a group of MI forum moderators and that is all, they open poll's, lock topics or update topic's.

several people around here are blowing things all out of proportion, the decisions that get made regarding the actual MI mod are STILL being made collectively by the community that is involved in constructing the mod.

this confusion has probably been caused by Cerbera's reason's for why certain people have been assigned positions on the Council.

the Council is not in existance to decide the route the mod follows, they're here to moderate the forums.

now why doesn't everyone just stfu about this and get over it !!!

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

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#15

Posted 09 February 2007 - 08:55 PM

OK, since my ideas about this project are the opposite to what everyone else wants, the best thing is that I leave the project:
  • JasonB will retain FTP access to my webspace so he can upload Port Orchid updates and other MISA stuff. The URL to his folder is only available via IRC so the source files can't be hijacked by other projects. I won't be liaising with him any more.
  • Everything in my Myriad Islands file dump is now public domain. Use it however you like, if you can find anything worth using.
I was just trying to help, but I'm sure the project will do fine without me.

Gforce
  • Gforce

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#16

Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:54 AM

user posted image

illspirit
  • illspirit

    lycanthroplasty

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#17

Posted 10 February 2007 - 05:36 AM

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Feb 8 2007, 12:27)
The scope for the group as I understood it was people who manage important aspects of the mod so they can run the relevant topics effectively.

Correct. They manage, as in, organize and coordinate. They do not rule by bureaucratic fiat, or, as you say, "call the shots." While there are somewhat executive decisions to be made (doling out the limited lots, for example), there are no bosses. For instance you, Cerb, were not made king of the trains or what have you. But rather you were entrusted to aid in the coalescence of the system because you took the initiative in designing it. Were someone else to come along with a better (or easier moto_whistle.gif ) idea, you would have to accept their input because the project isn't yours to command, would you not? (Not attacking you here either, mind, as you obviously did take Spoon and others' feedback into consideration with the western branch of the tunnels. I'm just making an example here...)

However, and lest there be any confusion, this project is not a democracy. Or, at least I would hope it isn't. Being a community project, yes, there will of course be a number of democratically decided, community-based decisions, but I would rather not see it turned into some reality TV dystopia where mob rule arbitrarily kicks people off the proverbial island. Or, err, literal, virtual island, as it were. Either way, democracy is a plague, and, almost paradoxically, the single greatest threat to freedom and order in the modern world. Not to mention fun.

Sh*t. Had someone said things would get this serious, I'd have written a Constitution to release with Big Empty City. monocle.gif

mickarrow
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#18

Posted 11 February 2007 - 11:58 PM

QUOTE
OK, since my ideas about this project are the opposite to what everyone else wants, the best thing is that I leave the project.


Utter nonsense! Having ideas that go in against the established mutual thinking have proven in the past to be the ones that caused the most groundbreaking progress. Action and reaction is the basis of any process.


QUOTE
I was just trying to help, ...


Up to a point, yes. But mainly no. Now, in past discussions (let me use a soccer term here) I always played the ball, never the man. But I feel obliged to do so now.
I believe, in your own thoughts, you thought you were helping. But the general feeling that grew bigger, was that you weren't part of the team, you directed it.
I believe a Cerbera could be a valuable member of MI, if he collaberates rather then dictates. The choice is yours...
This sounds harsh, but I really know no other honest way of telling you this.

3d isn't your strongest point, we all know that. Recent discussion have brought up the MI website. Seeing websites is your strong point, perhaps you could directly participate to MI in that area, and on a more indirect way in the 3d area confused.gif No-one is useless, we all play our part...

So basically, this is a 'get your ass back in here' post. You still can help MI (read: 'not rule'), but that's up to you.


(PS: though I see what illy means, roflol at his twisted idea about democray.)




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