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"Spawn"

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SuperTrunks
  • SuperTrunks

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#1

Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:39 AM Edited by SuperTrunks, 16 November 2006 - 12:59 PM.

I made this post so I don't have to explain again and again why the "spawnkilling" in gta2 in a one on one game isn't low contrary to spawnkilling known from online shooters with more than 2 players, and why it is better than a game of acting(you'll understand after reading)

How "spawnkilling" is different from spawnkilling
Spawnkilling is usually known as an evil form of playing a game, like hacking or using codes. For example when a player is camping in unrealtournament to shower a spawningpoint with rockets and wins the game doing this, I also think this is bad and this is where the word spawnkilling comes from. But in a one on one game this is different, in a one on one game there is no spawnkilling, it's different though if you would always spawn on the same position and would be unable to do anything against it. A good example of a trick like this is in mortal kombat 1 where you can't do anything about a liu kang spamming his fireball. But in unreal tournament there are multiple spawnpoints so although you will sometimes be killed immedeately most of the time you won't be. in gta 2 the spawnpoints aren't random, but that's something both sides can take an advantage from, and it's not that you can do nothing against being "spawnkilled". your chances of survival are random, depending on which cars come driving by, a fast car means you survive, slow cars mean you can make it a stalemate and no cars means death. in some spawnpoints the chance of finding a car is harder than in another but this doesn't mean you can't do anything. sometimes when you have bad luck you couldn't have done anything but not always. this is al part of your luck in the game, which is also a skill. "Spawnkilling" makes the 1st kill an important one, on hidden surprise it might mean a quadrupple death, but the 4 th spawn is always a big chance to survive, and so are the 5th and 8th.

Dirty style and Honor
Everyone has his own way of playing the game, I might be a "spawnkiller" but atleast I refrain from using Invul, Invis, mines or oil unless you start doing it. I don't use invul and invis because it shifts the focus of the game, this has nothing to do with skill it just places a disadvantage on the other player. invul forces your enemy to use electrogun which is often a disadvantage vs the rocket, and invis does the same but also forces the enemy to camp in a safe position or drive around in an armored car until invis wears off. Mines and oil ruin the accessibility of the level and causes you to maintain caution while driving which costs speed and thus also shifts the focus of the game. mines and oil disadvantage the player who doesn't know where they are and can make picking up a weapon harder. unlike using these dirty weapons using the rocket and vehicle machinegun are weapons of honor. though you might think "spawnkilling" isn't honorable, atleast the rocket and vehicle machine gun as opposed to invul, invis, mines and oil are pure weapons. "killing someone on his spawnpoint isn't really honor but it is atleast fighting someone with your full strength without holding back which would be acting and result in a meaningless victory.
I like a game with mainly rocketbattle and speed. the rocket wins from all weapons if you have 100% accuracy because it's instakill and has the longest range. the vehicle machine gun brings in the speed element of the game. I have played one year with a friend using invul invis mines and oil, but then the focus is entirely not on rocketing or speed. it's just about who gets the invul first, the 2nd gets invis and then sneaky use of mines plays a role. if you kill the enemy you get invul and place mines on the invis and go hunting, that's no fun, it's lame when you'r rocket doesn't kill on impact or if you die by mines, it's a battle without honor. I played a fun match this year though where I wasn't allowed to use invul invis mines and oil vs someone who did use them all, and I won, although it was hard. but I like a game with the 2 main skills of gta 2 which are aiming(rocket) and speed(car). if you get killed in a "spawngame" the worst that could happen is a chainreaction, this is determined by the 1st kill and the amount of luck the players have.

Results showing spawnkilling is fair
The main argument against "spawnkilling" is that people who get killed don't have a weapon, but this is their own fault for typing instead of moving and the combination of bad luck which you get a lot by acting you don't have a weapon. waiting for others to get a weapon is acting. if you look at strategy games there are always rushers. someone loses because he isn't fast enough, but everyone has the possibility to be dangerous when they get the time to develop. "spawnkilling" in gta2 in a one on one battle is like rushing in a strategy game. it's true though that the risk of a quadrupple kill on hidden surprise is big after the 1st kill, but the total chance of winning the game remains equal. the length of the game also increases the chance for newer people to win in a "spawn" game. against another good player a 5 frag game usually end in 5-3 or 5-4 and rarely in 5-0. a 10 frag game is rarely 10 -below 5 and usually a close one.
Even though newer players criticize "spawnkilling" because they don't have a weapon while they think they stand a chance when having one, they fail to realize they haven't mastered the other main skill in the game which is speed. Someone with 100 % accuracy is a deadly opponent when armed, but if he gets killed one time he is finished if he can't be fast. Someone with 100% accuracy but 0% aim will get his/her weapons but end up missing his target, but he does get experience in aiming. eventually the Speed only player will master aim and become a deadly player unlike the 100% aim no speed player who will only master typing "no weapon" "kurwa" and "f*cking spawnkiller* while his aim skill reduces because he can't pick up a weapon, so eventually his only skill will be complaining while standing still which is also known as being a noob.

Conclusion
With this post I want to explain why a "spawn" game without restrictions is better than acting. besides when I let you win in a game of acting it has no meaning, it only has meaning if you defeat me at full power. In a game of acting you hold your power back to allow the other player to collect his weapon, though this rule is in the advantage of the actor. you don't always know for sure when he has a weapon, and often you get killed because you were giving him time to get a weapon while he already had one. therefore it's best in this kind of acting game to use a defensive style which degrades you to camping and other cowardly tactics which are useless in a real battle, because if you both camp no one wins. the aggressive style has the honor. if someone is new and loses 10 -0 I am prepared to train him which includes rocket training and speed training. if you master those 2 skills you will become a good player. if you're an actor you'll only be good at typing.

Good players
I define a good player as being able to play this kind of game in which "spawnkilling" is allowed, even stronger, I think this "spawnkilling" should be just the normally accepted rules while "acting" becomes the acception. if you can't play it it means you can't aim or can't be fast and a good player needs both. in a game of acting you don't require speed. Some players can play "spawn" but don't like it though, this is just because they have another style, just like I don't use invul, invis, mines and oil, but it doesn't mean I can't counter it. but I keep seeing spawn as necessary because it requires speed and it's my full power. people who use the dirty 4 weapons may also say that is their full power but a rocket or vehicle machine gun don't directly disadvantage their opponent. it's the fairest way of playing full power.

No Spawnkillls imho
-Driving someone over never is a spawnkill, you can always jump. using vehicle machinegun is "spawn" though
-Killing someone after you die isn't spawn, you have the same chance(so if I kill you, kill myself, and "spawn" you it isn't spawn
-pistol, shotgun, molotov, nade, vehicle bomb kills aren't spawn, they're just too easily avoidable
-killing the player longest alive besides you, someone always has to die, else you are holding back

I'm interested in players who agree to my "spawn" kind of game and have a fast connection, I hope the source gets free soon so the speed can be improved^-^because my connection in gta is often slow although I can download with 300KB/s and upload 900KB/s o.0 atleast against dutch players I'm fast when I'm lucky^-^

Ingame: Trunks(if you pwn me ingame someone might have nicked my nick, but I hope ppl won't go that low ^^)

Thanks for reading ^-^

Miner
  • Miner

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#2

Posted 17 November 2006 - 04:21 AM Edited by Miner, 17 November 2006 - 04:28 AM.

Im not really the spawnkilling type, i give people sort of a chance, to get something usefull, so i can fight them with some resistance, its more fun then killing someone who's unarmed.

And i also rarely use mines oil, and such, trough occasionally, i use invis or invun, why not if its there?
I only use "dirty" tactics when i get mad, lol. And i go abusing the car horn lol, so its easy known, to some, i guess.

EDIT: Some people say im a bug abuser. lol. Guess i am a bit, but i love getting to use some tricks, some do not even know. Like teleporting up, hehehe. I just love making people go "WTF!?".

SuperTrunks
  • SuperTrunks

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#3

Posted 17 November 2006 - 08:29 AM

The first time I fight someone I always go fullpower, but when someone can't handle it it's too easy so I might go easier ^-^ but playing at an easier style might weaken you so you also have to train fullpower. I think I'm too impatient to wait for people to get a weapon ^^ often new players also don't directly head to a good weapon but just drive around ^^

I don't use the dirty weapons because it gives the enemy a direct disadvantage, when you kill someone with such weapons it's often the weapons advantage which kills the enemy instead of your skills. with invul you only have to pay attention to you aim and you have to know if the enemy has electro, invis is a free kill if the enemy doesn't have electro, mines can be placed in an invisible area or just anywhere which adds the chance of killing the opponent because the map is unequal, same for oil.

QUOTE
I only use "dirty" tactics when i get mad, lol. And i go abusing the car horn lol, so its easy known, to some, i guess.

lol people often do that ^^ but it results in my attacks becoming even more aggressive so the enemy will even lose harder tounge.gif some people go straight to the mines or invul ^^ the weapon doesn't make the man. abusing the special key is good, you can mentally attack your opponent with it, surely if someone goes to mines out of anger, killing him and using the special will have a fun effect ^^

There are some bugs in gta, but no really bad ones, you can counter every bug. you better not tell your tricks ^^ else everyone will know it, like the fire south trick with the rocket from a car ^^ I also have some tricks of my own ^^

Sektor
  • Sektor

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#4

Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:28 AM Edited by Sektor, 17 November 2006 - 11:33 AM.

I always like to play with spawnkills allowed. There's no fair way to enforce no spawnkills , you can't easily tell if someone has weapon and it just slows the pace of the game too much if you have to keep waiting. I like trying to escape a spawnkill, admittedly you don't always have a chance to get away but most of the time there is some chance if you know how to avoid your enemy and their weapons. If you don't want to be spawnkilled too often then play a larger map. You can't be spawnkilled if you don't die and you have to kill before you get a chance to spawnkill, so there's always some skill required.

I prefer to play without invul and invis. At least you can tell if your opponent has invis but it just makes the game go on too long. Sometimes I play without vehicle gun since that can make spawnkilling too easy.

Hiding mines is a strategy, I don't do it often but that's because i'm usually doing the hunting and not defending. You should expect mines to be hidden and either avoid places where mines can be hidden or use a strong car.

These are just opinions, it should always be up to the host of the game to decide the rules.

SuperTrunks
  • SuperTrunks

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#5

Posted 17 November 2006 - 12:36 PM

Cool ^-^ Someone who likes spawn ^-^

I also play without vehicle machinegun from time to time to practice my rocket, but sometimes being in a really quick game continuing vehicle machinegunning is just too tempting ^^

hiding mines is a strategy but since it direclty disadvantages the opponent i think it's dirty ^-^ if you lay double mines armored cars won't work. the instant gang is usefull for deleting mines but I forgot to mention I also avoid instant gang because I fight alone.

I hope we can play sometime, but I fear the connection will be slow -_- but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it ^-^

Miner
  • Miner

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#6

Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:56 AM Edited by Miner, 18 November 2006 - 03:02 AM.

Are the tricks you know something... basic, like the south rocket thingy, what my friend Agent calls SideShot? Or a bit advanced?

Some tricks i sometimes is is landing without damage, SideShot, and teleporting up, trough teleporting up needs quite a bit, so rarely used, great way to get out of reach of all. devil.gif

And when going mad, i plain spawnkill too, trough i never stay mad very long, lol. Can you tell some of your tricks? what they do? lol.

And wonder when they will give GTA2's source... as i heard somewhere, people will upgrade sort of GTA2's netcode, so its good even with like, 600 ping? or so i have heard.

EDIT: hidden mines is to me ussually a bit... cowardly. But if i get mad i will do anything for a frag! And ussually ignore other players, lol.

EDIT2: How exactly mentally attack the opponent with the car horn? lol, trough they might get hurt ears lol. it atleast shows i aint moving for anything on my path, lol.(excluding a wall ;P)

SuperTrunks
  • SuperTrunks

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#7

Posted 18 November 2006 - 11:23 AM

hmmm shall I keep my tricks secret or shall I reveal them ^^ atleast I want to mention these tricks are no cheats or hacks, they are rules of the gta 2 world. I only think going underground is illegal because then your opponent is disadvantaged because you are effectively camping and if you're ahead with points you can camp forever. I know of course how to counter the underground. The use of tricks is always visible to the eye, so you know when someone is doing tricks, I will mention behind every trick how I use it, when I use it and if it's fair or not.

I think I know 11 tricks then: Land without dmg, side shot, south shot, backshot, punch car, getting out of the car in 4 directions, go underground, invulnerable against wall, jumping diagonals, minus all kills suicide, perfect dodge.

Many tricks are common knowledge because they were passed on by the inventors in our small community. but even when I thought we knew everything the southrocket trick which occured randomly sometimes was discovered by DON_GODDY, atleast he taught me. I think it'd be nice if the move someone invented would be called after that person ^^ but before we can do so we must all agree on who invented what.

*Land without dmg(some ppl know it? or is it different from landing on a car / using molotov/grenade?)
I don't know how to land without dmg, or is that a bit like flying with molotovs?(or landing on a car)^^ I remember I landed on a car once and survived a jump you would normally die, I know you can do some weird molotov/grenade stuff but I almost never use this since it's defensive.
I think this is fair, it can save you dmg if you are walking to the rocket in the pit in hidden, or you can jump from a high building, the other player doesn't have a disadvantage.

*Sideshot(get out of the car, fire) (this is so long ago I don't remember it ^^ who started using it? Goddy? Thz?)
*South shot(fire+get out of the car) (I learnt it from Goddy)
*Backshot(possible but how...did it while driving east)(not patented yet tounge.gif)
side shot and southshot including a 3rd one which I will keep secret. what I still have to figure out is how to get out the other door. oh and the backward shot which I don't know how yet.
this really adds a new dimension to the game and more speed, and since you both can do it, I think it's fair. I use it when I have the chance, but there comes a suicide risk with it.

teleport?
I only know how to teleport in gta 1. (driving a large vehicle(bus, tanker etc) in a tree, getting out of the car and wait till it drops on you, you will be teleported. I don't know how you do this trick, I haven't seen it in action yet, but I don't think I will have problems with it.

*punch car(I don't know if it became common knowledge through copying, but I learnt it during the game itself vs cops)
everyone know's the punch + get in the car combo, you can also place yourself under your car when alone, but I don't know how I did that and it didn't really serve a purpose.
This is a very fair trick if used for defense, don't mess with me when I'm getting in a car, you will die tounge.gif car thieves often experience this tounge.gif I don't use if offensive much, because if you both do it, you don't know who is going to die ^^

*Getting out of the car in 4 directions(I can jump out of a car backwards but I don't know how to do the rest)
I don't know how to jump out the front window, from the backdoor or on the right side of the car yet without using something to block off an exit. you should atleast be able to use the right exit on command. jumping out of the car is usefull and it's fair.

*Go underground(I know 3 ways, everyone know it's possible using the stairs, 2 other ways are secret)
going underground is bad, it's unfair, it's like going to camp somewhere but with the attacker at a disadvantage. most ppl kill themselves when they get underground, that's good, it makes me get ahead even more, but you also can get out. I know 3 ways to get underground, but I won't tell them, you shouldn't know it. and I don't use it, however everyone sometimes falls through the stairs with their car.


invulnerable against wall(This is my own invented move I guess)
this move has 2 big weaknesses which makes it fair to use, I won't say how to counter it but some ppl already know, I also taught someone this move, but he is overusing it and it slows the pace of the game. it makes it difficult to kill someone using this trick, but it also freezes him which often makes it a draw for the encounter, but since it's counterable without disadvantage it's fair. this is the best anti spawn trick.

*Jumping a diagonal(to get on roofs etc)(or is this what you meant by teleporting lol)(if it is it's common knowledge)
Jupming on roofs could get you in a place where you won't be killed so easily, but getting there is so hard you probably won't escape in time, that makes it fair. I only use this when fooling around, which is rare, I never use it in a serious match. when you drive a diagonal(stairs or something) and jump of the side of it on 60-80 degrees slowly, you will notice that your car will jump up a lvl higher, if done fast you can fly some distance, for example in hidden surprise you can get on the green roof surrounding the rocket pit, or you can jump over the electro gun on the machine gun when you jump the stairs on the side of the rocket in hidden.

*minus all kills suicide.(did other people than me also know how to trigger this, or did you think it was a random bug?)
this is the trick everyone likes you to do, get hit by your car while jumping in the water, every hit will take of a live, and if it hits it will keep hitting till all your lives are gone ^^ it's the coolest thing to see in gta.

perfect dodge(this will be the strongest trick if revealed how to do it)
dodge flame, dodge rocket, dodge autobomb are still not clear, but they are possible.
I experienced a surivival of a rocket impact for 5 times, 2 times being flamed entirely and 1 time surviving a car bomb when standing against it in hidden surprise, a lvl without invul and in the middle of the action(not after spawning) it could make you very strong if you know how to take a rocket, but I wonder when someone will find out ^^ I don't know it

Some other cool tricks are studying the randomness of cars, I guess a lot of players know which cars come when at the beginning of the game, but if you know more and more being spawned gets harder and harder.


I hope they get the sourcecode free too, imagine 6 player games at fast speed! ^-^

mines are indeed cowardly ^-^ for me it's not about the winning only, if the opponent doesn't use dirty weapons I'll keep trying for a clean win, being pwned by someone even with spawn isn't a bad thing, I'd be happy if there are more good opponents ^-^

The special mental attack is just that when someone is angry, for example when they start typing "alghkarg", "F*uck" or "kurwa" that you use the horn after you kill them, especially painfull after using the electro, it's humiliating and could anger your opponent even more ^^ I am so evil tounge.gif


Sektor
  • Sektor

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#8

Posted 22 November 2006 - 01:51 PM Edited by Sektor, 24 November 2006 - 09:02 AM.

Cops can drain your frags if they walk up to your sizzling body (before you respawn) just after you get electrocuted. It's rare and if you have a lot of frags, they might not drain all of them.

SuperTrunks
  • SuperTrunks

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#9

Posted 22 November 2006 - 03:40 PM

ROFL what a bug ^^ I never heard that one XD But then again I rarely play with cops on^^ Oh I found out how to shoot out the car in all directions ^-^ that only leaves the perfect dodge undiscovered. there's also a speedboost trick: when you have a long car, a limo or something, and you drive on an edge with water you can boost your speed by almost falling in the water and going back on land, I only did it with luck once, but it's a fun one ^-^

Miner
  • Miner

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#10

Posted 23 November 2006 - 10:29 PM Edited by Miner, 23 November 2006 - 10:33 PM.

Do you want to trade tricks? lol.
The teleport trick i got is... hard to start, sort of, it needs much, you could say, but you can use it at will, but also need the right places to start doing it, high places(Stairs going up) are needed.

Its handy to do suicide, or teleport on the roof, of the building your under.
And the car thing... i can do such at the rocket at loonies, in a builing, near the tank, going weird on the stairs, keeps me hard to get, lol.

EDIT: I would LOVE to see that bug with electrofried player peds happen!
And the... thing draining all your frags, with the car crushing you, is also GREAT to see, lol.

EDIT2: Know anyone who can do the Perfect Dodge? Maybe you could earn it from him from a match, like i earned to know how to use Side Shot, by defeating Agent00 in rocket town. Trough im getting a bit rusty lately... sad.gif

mibars
  • mibars

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#11

Posted 02 December 2006 - 07:34 PM Edited by mibars, 02 December 2006 - 08:28 PM.

Ah.. tricks... Most of them I've arledy know, some of them are new to me (and usually they are marked by you as "secret":) ). I know how to exit vehicle with desired door, but it is bit inpractical... You need to enter vehicle using door you want to exit, eg park your vehicle next to wall to block your drivers door, then exit and enter vehicle. Off course it slows you down, because you lose few seconds, which you could spend on collecting weapons... It is ever more inconvinient, when you want to use backdoor, like in Bank Van, or Ambulance - you need to block both front doors in order to enter using backdoor.

Entering using passenger doors may be useful when connected with "southshot" - Who will expect "southshot" from vehicle heading east? Or north, when in a boxtruck?

But... It's all offtopic, I want to say something about spawnkilling...

Some of you may know the rules of 95% games hosted by polish players. On our forum we got whole topic of rules, here I'll write only few of them. First of all we play without spawnkills BUT by saying "spawnkill" we don't mean what "spawnkill" exactly is. We type "WW" (from Without Weapon) during the game just after we were killed. This status means that no one should kill us (unless it is during fight between other players). "WW" is void when:
-attacking
-having weapon smile.gif
-camping on weapon spawn
-hitting other players cars if it is done by purpose (or on purpose? My eng isn't perfect...)
-making any kind of difficulties for other players if it is done on purpose
-having gang
-having it for a long time and not collecting nearby weapons (like when waiting for certain weapon)

After (spawn)killing someone with "ww" status we shoud commit suicide.
Having "ww" status is making little difficulties, like we cannot use handbrake, or jump over oncomming cars... It sometimes lead to argues, when someone driving fast kills player with "ww", because he cannot jump over the car...

We also play without invul, invis and mines. We allow using oil, but in most cases isn't used.

That's the "official" statement, but I prefer little diffrent game.
At very beggining I played (usually on LAN, or on 2 computers connected with serial) like a typical "noob" smile.gif Spawnkills, hidden mines, attacking with invis, etc, and I concidered jumping over the car as a trick biggrin.gif. But since I've started using GH (it wasn't long after it was released) and I met a lot of players, which were usually not as goos as me (since I've played GTA2 multiplayer a lot) I started giving them some time to find a weapon. Then, when more and more players became good I made a "step backward" and began serious spawnkilling. It was very easy way to win - set the game for 10 frags, spend one minute to find weapons and kill opponent, and then next 2 minutes to kill him 9 times in a row... Sometimes I was getting "owned" this way. No one was complaining, because everybody was playing like this. Then I've realised how unfair it was... Most important were first few seconds, after that game was only about "will he kill me next 9 times, or he will make a mistake/will I kill him next 9 times, or I'll make a mistake?" That's when I started to ask for "no spawnkilling" before game - It was when I was winning almost every game. Then I met few ppl from poland who organised "Polish GTA2 forum" and they set this rules I mentioned.

Nowdays I play according to this rules, but it isn't exactly what I prefer. First of all I like to play without "ww" AND without spawnkilling - I'm just going to find even more weapons instead of killing my opponent, usually when he/she is losing I'm leaving one weapon just to make the fight little more challenging (what's the fun in killing not too good player using machinegun with bazooka, or electro?). I prefer also using mines BUT they must be visible. I accept oil, because you need some skill to drive on it in direction you want. It is even funny to see how noob is suiciding on FOff just because I left oil on all ways connecting island... He could simply walk if he can't drive over it, but NO, always full speed into water...

So my opinion about spawnkills is - NO.

EDIT:
I forgot to advertise, that on our GTA2 forum we have made special english-only section. Some ppl alredy joined, you may want if not to register just to see it smile.gif )

don_awi
  • don_awi

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#12

Posted 03 December 2006 - 02:08 PM

I like those spawn games with trunks, but i also love to communicate by using f10 chat...but skype is also an option;)

SuperTrunks
  • SuperTrunks

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#13

Posted 03 December 2006 - 09:49 PM

^-^

I started single player, finished the game, then went fighting against cops and finally got lan, I played against my brother and friends and since I was lucky to hit a lot with the rocket launcher I got speedy in killing my opponents. after that I played against McCartney for a very long time on lan out of school, then the game went online.

I think typing ww for (without weapon) is blasphemy, [ww] means [lol] in japanese. the character for laughing 笑 which has the bamboo radical on top 竹 is abbrevated to ww. instead of using ww it's better to you nw which means no weapon. also if you have the time to type you have the time to get a car. I have to add that I think typing nw is acting, you can easily act you don't have a weapon while typing nw and it's like playing the victim, saying "don't kill me" while I have done nothing yet. it's provokig me into killing you ^-^

The 1st kill is indeed a very important one but still on hidden surprise a quintuple kill is rare, it means the level of skill of the players had a too big gap between it. if you have equal players it's always an interesting match^-^

another thing is that without "spawnkill" means holding back, and I'm not interested in a handicapped match, I want a match where I need to use all my strength to win, and I also want the opponent to use his maximum power. even if you think using invul or mines is going to make you win go ahead and use them, there are no rules in a fight to the death. They are dirty weapons so I won't start using them but if that is your way of trying to kill me the best way you can then I respect that ^-^

spawnkilling may seem unfair if there is no resistance, but find a good opponent and you will know that it is fair ^-^

I'm not interested in trading tricks XD just fight me the best you can and I'll counter and copy usefull tricks if I see them ^-^ sharingan!

don awi is the perfect example of someone who started without spawnkilling but got skillfull and now can fight along even if there is spawn ^-^ mibars seems like the opposite, giving up spawn for without spawn. chatting is fun, but I prefer skype ^^ I started with lan with 2 computers next to eachother, then chat isn't needed, and when it went online skype was the best substitute for talking ^-^





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