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illspirit
  • illspirit

    lycanthroplasty

  • Members
  • Joined: 01 May 1976
  • None

#31

Posted 24 October 2006 - 08:41 AM

QUOTE
Of all the rumors ever started about me, I don't think I've ever seen one as opposite from the truth as possible. You can say it. Doesn't make it true.


Methinks he was talking about Jacob, not you.

QUOTE
MY work? NONE of this is about me...

...A new guy has plenty to worry about that to have to add to it being f*cked by somebody who SHOULD know better.


Hmm, well, in my IM log, it seems you said "the other is responsible for parts of the last 6 months of [your] work having to be redone and rereleased" whilst describing the "rogue coders" who had you enraged. In the ensuing topic, you also expressed a great deal of dissatisfaction at "redoing ALL that work." Sounds to me like you were pissed because it broke your sh*t. I already said this was initially a reasonable reaction. And, yes, I know and respect that you have a truly altruistic interest in helping to remedy the problem for everybody else. But you can't honestly expect me to believe the amount of venom you spit didn't have anything to do with how it affected you.

If this was strictly about helping the proverbial new guy, surely a quick prod (and a don't-let-it-happen again lecture perhaps) of Space or whoever else to fix it would have been less vindictive and more, err, helpful. tounge.gif

QUOTE
YOUR perceived magnitude aside, let's question motive. WHY would a person do such a thing?


He shouldn't. But that's like asking a gun owner why he would ND a .380ACP round into some drywall. Statistically, the answer to both is the same. Humans are like fallible and stuff.

QUOTE
This is not a matter of opinion. We stay in line. All of us as modders have a responsibility to not knowingly release that will which crash the games of others. If only to ensure that your name doesn't become associated with broken code for example.


We don't have a responsibilty to do sh*t. Remember, this is supposed to be a fun hobby or something? Besides, who said he knowingly released something that will crash games? I thought the whole problem was that he wasn't testing with old scripts for compatibility. dontgetit.gif

QUOTE
Nobody said it was a conspiracy.


With all the quotes in my last post, it sure as hell sounded like you thought it was a conspiracy to destroy the whole galaxy!

QUOTE
When people make "mistakes" they say things like "whoops" and "sorry". Not "well nobody has to use it" "oh well" and so forth. And while I'm certain that destroying the community wasn't his goal, you can't play the ignorance card. He knew full well the effects of his work were, never said a word (I'm told he did eventually, but that doesn't help the people who trusted him up front). Once it came to light, he wasn't the least bit moved. How do YOU feel about people that sh*t in your pool?


Umm, he probably wasn't moved to tears because it's not really a big deal? Well, that, and, the whole this-is-supposed-to-be-fun thing? Perhaps he did bite off more than he could chew by choosing to update/maintain the .scm .ini, but he was only trying to help. If we were to sh*t on everybody who takes initiative to do something, nothing would ever get done.

QUOTE
The difference between in yes and no are not semantics. They are full 180 in meaning. Now, I'm quite certain that even a beginner coder could try 0, see it didn't have the effect they wanted, and make it 1...

0 is no/false/off and 1 is yes/true/on. That's not for us to conversate about. In fact, I'm quite certain it was that way before our daddy's eyeballed our mommy's.


But, erm, AFAIK, the end result of the values is the same. Only instead of 0 meaning "No, pedestrian isn't not invulnarable to headshots," it now means "No, pedestrian isn't vulnerable to headshots." Or maybe in reverse. I think my brain just fell out, but you get my point.

QUOTE
No sh*t. And you'll notice that 25 has no direction to it. If it sits down in seat 1 of a 3 seat arrangement, the direction of X axis is implied, but that doesn't mean that 25 itself at all denotes a direction. Again, not a matter of opinion.


Right. However (and I can't find the post now), but the opcode still has two vars. One for speed, one for direction. No? Whether or not you ever explitly set the direction to use in some sort of complex Euclidian function, it's still what it is. A vector. Labeling it as "speed (speed, direction)" is, at best, redundant, while betraying the fact it may facilitate a proper physics operation.

QUOTE
I don't disagree. I know space was involved with LC. More than that, he HAS done a TON of work in ID'ing unknown opcodes, even if his namings were a bit contradictory. I give credit where credit is due. I know what space has done. Unfortunately, that includes things he never should've supposed himself authorized to do, which was followed up by complete lack of reparations. We all make mistakes as you said. It's how we deal with them by which a man should be judged.


Well if you know he's got such a sterling record, why declare a jihad on him over one mistake? As for judging him, where is mens rea? His only "crime" here was, at worst, doing something helpful and making a mistake along the way. If he wasn't "authorized" to maintain the .ini, why did you use his version? Why didn't you make your own? Oh, right, because it's a big, complex job, and you were probably glad that he was taking the initiative, right?

QUOTE
I think you're confusing your poisons. I've never proposed I invented anything. You sounded like you were talking about Barton up until the swapped parameter thing. And you know what? Barton was cleared for everything he did except the time he nuked part of the forums. People like him deserve leeway because without people like him, people like me would have a pair of empty hands and a keyboard. Same goes for the pioneers.


And I think you're confusing my use of colloquialisms. 'Twas meant in an exaggeratory manner as in "he walks around like he owns the place" or some such.

And now that you mention it, Mr. Waterduck pissed off a lot of people like that too. But then, Barton goes waaay back to ye olde days of AGGTA, so he can honestly call pretty much anyone a noob. wink.gif

QUOTE
The difference between me, space, and the claim you just tried to make is that I would NEVER dream on stepping on the toes of those before me. I NEVER FORGET wink.gif that it's because of their work that a coding section even exists. Then when I publish the one thing I AM the "inventor" of, I couldn't have been more humble. I made it clear I did not wish for any kudos, that it was my gift to the community becuase the have to start a new game bullsh*t was bullsh*t, AND I gave complete credit to the very people whose work, theory, and help made my publishing possible. You've got the wrong guy. Sure I'm arrogant.


Yes, I know you're generally quite humble to the vets, and when you release things. However, when challened on something, how often do you type the phrase "I'm Demarest?" I dunno if you've noticed-- and I'm not being sarcastic at all here --but you really do throw your name and status around a lot when you get into an argument. Sometimes it works in context. But often it comes across like "it is because I say so and you're a noob!" without a real argument to back it up. Arrogance is one thing. Expecting others to automatically agree with you just because you're you is another. Believe it or not, this kind of attitude tends to dissuades participation. Espeicaly with people who just want to mod stuff without being beaten over the head if they make a mistake.

QUOTE
But it never comes out until what's rightfully mine is challenged.


So the .scm format is rightfully yours? dontgetit.gif

QUOTE
That's what happened with Seamann. Oh, but did I mention that WE worked it out ourselves? Amidst the violence so many people are in a tizzy over knowing damn well it was a one time infraction that couldn't have been more than words by somebody who NEVER talks that way? The sky is falling!


I don't give a f*ck about the violence in and of itself. My point is lots of people get put off by the whole immature intertube tough guy thing.

QUOTE
You need to improve your batting average. First of all, I don't care if you have a join date earlier than the forum's inception. If one did not pioneer the SCM'ing scene and that one thinks they can do anything to desecrate it, they are a newcomer.


That statement doesn't give you cognitive dissonance? It basically works out to: "I don't care if you're a noob unless you're a noob!"

QUOTE
Because respect for those who have enable you to do what you can do should be second nature. That's not a disagreement. For there to be a disagreement, there'd have to be viewpoints. There is only one viewpoint here. The one shared by space and Pynton. The one that states to hell with the pioneers (which I am not and never have credited myself as), I'm going to do whatever the hell I want. What I represent is not a viewpoint. It's the way it's always been. I didn't invent it. I just have the good taste to not sh*t on it. And apparently the only one with the stones to stand up for its vitality.


And how are they sh*tting on the pioneers or anything else? By updating something which Barton is no longer around to do? Would you rather we just carve the opcode list in stone as it was when Barton left, and not have use of any newly discovered functions?

QUOTE
By that mentality, we should all be banned because we all take R*'s game and "cheat".


Quit throwing your apple flavored straw men into my orange trees. Your analogy is fatally flawed. You can cheat, hack, or mod your single player game all you want and it only affects your experience. When people cheat in an online game, it makes it unplayable for everyone else on the server. If you really want to use the single player analogy, it would be more like someone breaking into your house while you're out, and f*cking all the .dat files so you could never finish any missions. And then sneaking in again the next day and breaking it again after you fix it.

QUOTE
Oh, by the way. Thanks to Cyq, SCM'ers now have a way to mem-hack in VC. So I'm assuming anything he did could also be abused by using Cyq's research. You going to ban Cyq too? Of course not. Because he's Cyq.


No, he's not unbanned just because he's Cyq. See, there's a slight difference between Cyq and Jacob:

Cyq didn't have a website dedicated to f*cking up people's games by releasing programs specifically designed for every asshat in the world to grief with!
  • SWEETSAPRIK likes this

aru
  • aru

    *poof*

  • Feroci
  • Joined: 20 Jun 2005
  • None

#32

Posted 24 October 2006 - 08:59 AM

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 23 2006, 23:03)
QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 23 2006, 22:11)
Erm, people like him destroy online mods for the teams who make them, the thousands of people who play them, and for the countless people like me who don't even bother playing because there's too many cheaters. If that doesn't have SOMETHING to do with this place and the community at large, I'm not sure what does. And apparently you haven't notice all the reciprocal network links, the familiar staff names, and such, which tend to indicate VC/SA:MP have a bit more than "NOTHING" to do with this place...
By that mentality, we should all be banned because we all take R*'s game and "cheat". I know how to byte count. Does this make me a poisoner? Wouldn't it be HOW the technology is applied? You want to talk about arrogance, how about the people that take ROCKSTAR'S game, modify it, and then tell others that our work is off limits? HYPOCRITES! And now somebody that can help others learn and accomplish is banned because such hypocrites are so self-important that somehow THEIR work in modding somebody's game which is in fact copyrighted, sold, etc is okay, but dare not touch their work? It's sad really. Oh, by the way. Thanks to Cyq, SCM'ers now have a way to mem-hack in VC. So I'm assuming anything he did could also be abused by using Cyq's research. You going to ban Cyq too? Of course not. Because he's Cyq. And we need him. We need everybody like him. They're gone. Like it or not, that leaves me. So stand aside while I CONTINUE to do the right thing. You need a head on your wall, go after the people that made this mess that I shouldn't have to take any time out to clean up after.[/color]


You know there is something wrong when MP mod makers have to spend more time trying to prevent cheaters instead of spending time making the MP aspect of the mod better.

Sure, REing something has its purposes... but doing it for the sole purpose of spoiling the game of others is unacceptable. You can make all the hacks you want.... just don't expect people to sit around and watch when its specifically made for the purpose of cheating in MTA/SAMP/etc.

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002
  • United-Kingdom

#33

Posted 24 October 2006 - 12:35 PM

I'm not quite getting this...why is it Demarest isn't banned? What would we lose?

Gotshadow
  • Gotshadow

    RD loves me.

  • The Connection
  • Joined: 24 Nov 2001

#34

Posted 24 October 2006 - 12:58 PM

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Oct 24 2006, 23:35)
I'm not quite getting this...why is it Demarest isn't banned? What would we lose?

user posted image

-/TNT\-
  • -/TNT\-

    not like any other rainbow.

  • Members
  • Joined: 06 Aug 2006

#35

Posted 24 October 2006 - 01:47 PM

-/TNT\- accidentaly enters the topic, thinking it is DexX's birhtday or something and reads the topic thoroughly, while his eyes widen in terror. He gets up and humbly takes his leave. He doesn't dare reply to something he is scared about. But was is he scared about?

MyMothersMySister
  • MyMothersMySister

    Unkle Dysfunktional

  • Cyclop 9
  • Joined: 16 Apr 2002
  • None

#36

Posted 24 October 2006 - 03:36 PM

QUOTE (Otter @ Oct 23 2006, 00:18)
Liam, from an objective point of view, you're being an ass.  You're a bigger man than petty sh*t like this.


Thanks for that. Not sure why you felt you know me enough to use my actual name instead of my t'internet pyseudonym. Thanks all the same.


QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 23 2006, 08:10)
Au contraire. He's been acheing for this moment.


I don't have to ache. Take your illspirits tiun hat for a moment. You're really not that important a factor on here for me to give a sh*te about what you are doing and I don't sit around waiting to jump on you. Paranoia comes with the way you decide to go about your business I suppose.

QUOTE (Dem)
I'll give you an example. I saw him once threaten somebody with physical violence. He didn't know the person, his reasoning was based on sensationalism, and nothing about this person impacted his life one way or the other. Just showing off what a great human being he wants you to think he is.


That person was actually Pete docherty. Photographed injecting heroin into and unconcious teenage fan groupies body while she was passed out cold on the floor. I stated on how much I'd like to give him a slap for his actions like any decent man or father would do. You find this acceptable? Taking advantage of impressionable young girls isn't my forte though. Neither is threatening violence on the internet over some defunct coding.

wink.gif


QUOTE (Dem)
he threatened to ban me. Why? Because he can. Nothing big about that.


If I wanted you banned I would just do it homie. Take off the tin foil hat.

If you have anything else you want to say to me then take it to pm please. I don't like wallowing around here in your self pity.

OMGz oppression!
  • SWEETSAPRIK likes this

Demarest
  • Demarest

    what could be

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 12 Jul 2003

#37

Posted 24 October 2006 - 03:42 PM

QUOTE (anuj @ Oct 24 2006, 04:16)
all it got me was a kick in the ass because it made you feel like you're above the rules once again.
No... it was a stupid rule. One you KNOW I didn't know about until you said something. I was on staff when the sig rules were drafted. There was no avatar filesize limit because it's one of those things that common sense dictated anyways. What it got you was a little bit of respect for being able to use your brain instead of diving to zing me as part of some knee-jerk reaction... like this time wink.gif

QUOTE (anuj @ Oct 24 2006, 04:16)
Go me. From now on, I'm going to enforce the rules to the letter. I'll admit, illspirit corrected me on the avatar bit. But from now on, consider the witch-hunt in full f*cking swing. You so much as break the slightest rule, and I'm going to use it as an excuse to make you an example.
Blah, blah, blah. For somebody who's "grown up" as you claim, you sure do waste a lot of time. This occurance marks the 3rd such hunt. Your prdecessors didn't waste as much time before randomly changing my member title, etc... just because you can. Don't worry, I'm Demarest; nothing you do will come back to you in any form, so have at it already.

QUOTE (anuj @ Oct 24 2006, 04:16)
If you're going to put yourself up as a martyr, you might as f*cking well be justified, sweetheart.
If only you were able to follow along with anything this has to do with, you MIGHT be qualified to even speak on the matter. All you have to do is look at illspirit's misgivings here to see that it takes more than knowing how to SCM some to know the who's who, what's what, and the why's.

QUOTE (aru @ Oct 24 2006, 04:59)
You know there is something wrong when MP mod makers have to spend more time trying to prevent cheaters instead of spending time making the MP aspect of the mod better.
That's a powerful statement. If it means anything, I'm shocked at how many people would want to try and imbalance the game instead of just having fun with it. Still, when your dog sh*ts on the rug, you rub its nose in it, swat it, and give it a stern NO. You don't take it out back and chop its head off.

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Oct 24 2006, 08:35)
I'm not quite getting this...why is it Demarest isn't banned? What would we lose?
Maybe you didn't get it the first time, but what we were SUPPOSED to learn is that not liking me isn't reason enough to ban me. The irony is that you claim I'm some ban spree psycho when in fact I only ever once banned somebody because I wanted them banned. That was a long time ago. She's since FORGIVEN me, pulled for my unbanning, etc. Don't believe me? Ask her yourself. She's just in the other room there wink.gif

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
But you can't honestly expect me to believe the amount of venom you spit didn't have anything to do with how it affected you.

If this was strictly about helping the proverbial new guy, surely a quick prod (and a don't-let-it-happen again lecture perhaps) of Space or whoever else to fix it would have been less vindictive and more, err, helpful. tounge.gif
So my initial fervor was because it bit ME in the ass, so any efforts since must be personal in nature? dontgetit.gif I'm sorry you're for some reason unable to see that if such a dishonorable move could trip somebody like me up the way it has, it would sink lesser coders. Stating that it steered a year's worth of work into a brick wall not enough? Okay. How enraging would it be that after FOUR years of EVERYBODY (read: EVERYBODY) playing along for the greater good, for the first time in history, somebody chose to divorce themselves from EVERYTHING that preceeded. That in and of itself is deplorable. However, when it WILL crash games, it cannot be allowed to pass.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
QUOTE
YOUR perceived magnitude aside, let's question motive. WHY would a person do such a thing?
He shouldn't. But that's like asking a gun owner why he would ND a .380ACP round into some drywall. Statistically, the answer to both is the same. Humans are like fallible and stuff.
Uh... they're nothing alike. Not changing the param order, naming scheme etc is an instinct. Changing them is a decision. Yes humans are flawed, but having the common decency of EVERYBODY before you to not go f*cking with something that belongs to EVERYBODY will avoid such a possibility. Not convinced on intent? His work has contained elements of my work for a long time. All is well; I release it for such and he's always been good about giving credit. So why then does his work have a copyright notice in it? I never signed up for that. I've NEVER heard of a SCM'er doing that. We're not making copyrighted stuff; all we're doing is putting opcodes together in a different order to make different things happen. Oh and he's even put in a bullsh*t opcode just to prevent Sanny users from being able to decompile it. You'll make sure everybody thinks I'm arogant because I feel my reputation should be enough to kick in common sense that I'm not knowingly violating some avatar rule (twice), but when somebody's actions show a true level of arrogance up to and including measures that will sink everybody's game who touches it, you won't stop defending him. dictionary.com can help you with words like arrogance that you don't seem to get the definition of. wink.gif

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
We don't have a responsibilty to do sh*t. Remember, this is supposed to be a fun hobby or something?
With Jacob, you're saying that he's like tampering with your files and going in and messing it up again after you fix it, but when space does EXACTLY THAT, it's just a fun hobby and we don't owe anybody the most basic of instincts in modding, which is to enhance the experience, not halt it? Figure you'll have this one wrapped up by the afternoon, detective? dozingoff.gif

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
Besides, who said he knowingly released something that will crash games?
He did. This is why you need to look past the fact that it tampered with MY work and look at the bigger picture. You go on to badmouth me for saying "I'm Demarest", but the times that happens is when... oh I don't know... you ban me when you're the ONE person who should KNOW that I'm not capable of things you hear. Or as is the case here that if I'm on a tirade against somebody who knowingly messes with peoples games because it destroys a unity we've established and preserved that preys upon the less talented, it means that *gasp* it's somebody who knowingly messes with peoples games because it destroys a unity we've established and preserved that preys upon the less talented.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
I thought the whole problem was that he wasn't testing with old scripts for compatibility. dontgetit.gif
No, the problem is that for whatever reason, you refuse to believe that if I'm moved on the subject, there MUST be a reason. You don't need to test for compatibility to know that a Perennial does not have 10000 passenger seats. But why take my word for it? I've only posted a picture of what it looks like when Smoke implodes trying. It would actually be quite hilarious if it didn't mean that X number of people out there have a crashing game that would never be able to figure out why. I've already catalogued the unnecessary and extreme measure I had to go through just to identify the culprit.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
With all the quotes in my last post, it sure as hell sounded like you thought it was a conspiracy to destroy the whole galaxy!
No I didn't. You can stop twisting/fabricating my words because a lot of the rest of your post either makes this fundamental mistake or the one whereby you swear by space's innocence because he's human. On that note, while not quite as critical, Pynton has not only changed variables.ini labels that are four years old, he's even encouraged a newer coder to "do his own thing" in the context of trying to convince somebody who's trying to learn coding to use whatever labels he chooses. Nevermind the fact that when we publish code, there's never been a reason to say "yes, I know it's $PLAYER_CHAR to everybody else and has been for 4 years, but I'm saying $PLAYER because I should be able to do my own thing". Not that I'm saying Pynton is exactly like space. Yes he's contributed and yes for the most part, he clearly knows what he's doing. Point is that he too has willfully disrupted the community and NOT just by releasing code without a disclaimer that you'll have to for the first time ever change your variables.ini if you want to be able to use it, but also instructing newcomers to do as they please in areas where conformity is what keeps that area of the modding scene alive. I chose my words carefully, so don't go misrepresenting the spirit they represent.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
Perhaps he did bite off more than he could chew by choosing to update/maintain the .scm .ini, but he was only trying to help. If we were to sh*t on everybody who takes initiative to do something, nothing would ever get done.
What did I say? Did I not say I give credit where credit is due? Do I really have to pull out "I'm Demarest" and remind you that I give credit where credit is due? I've NEVER torn down space for the contributions he's made. Only the detractions. And only then because A) there was never a reason to reinvent the wheel and B) once face to face with all that it could yield, his response was meh. I have about a dozen unfinished projects right now. Now exactly community-minded. However, I fix bugs in my work. Right now, I have one unanswered, but that's because it may misrepresent your coordinates by as much as .8. Not at all the same as crashing one's game, crashing the game of anybody who tinkers/alters/studies it, etc.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
But, erm, AFAIK, the end result of the values is the same. Only instead of 0 meaning "No, pedestrian isn't not invulnarable to headshots," it now means "No, pedestrian isn't vulnerable to headshots." Or maybe in reverse. I think my brain just fell out, but you get my point.
Fine, you lack trust to the point of requireing specifics, "as you wish".
CODE
0446=2,set_actor %1d% immune_to_headshots %2d%
See how it says immune to headshots? By that description, 0 would mean not immune to headshots and 1 would mean immune to headshots. But the truth is the exact opposite. Despite my already covering it, you're continuing to argue that the end result is the same. Which is only true because the compiler and engine only look at the opcode and parameters. The flavor text isn't for the compiler/engine. It's for humans. To make it easier to read. You may wish to argue it, but it's been a fact for greater than twice as long as we've been alive that 0 means false and 1 means true.

As I said, I've already covered this, so it's pretty assinine you're making me cover it again. But I've already pointed out that even a beginner coder would use one value, find ingame that it didn't have the effect they planned, so toggle the value so that it will. You want to play the mistake card? Here's your chance. Because the process I just described is little more than an annoyance. I wouldn't even mention it were it not for that, other backwards labelings, a ton of mislabelings, and swapping parameters around. His collective efforts in this regard have "my way" written all over it.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
Right. However (and I can't find the post now), but the opcode still has two vars. One for speed, one for direction. No? Whether or not you ever explitly set the direction to use in some sort of complex Euclidian function, it's still what it is. A vector. Labeling it as "speed (speed, direction)" is, at best, redundant, while betraying the fact it may facilitate a proper physics operation.
Fine, you lack trust to the point of requireing specifics, "as you wish".
CODE
0381=4,throw_object %1d% velocity_in_direction %2d% %3d% %4d%
4 parameters. The first is an object. The remaining 3 are XYZ directions. As in, 2nd position is X, 3rd position is Y, and 4th position is Z. Their position gives them direction. The values themselves however are STILL only capable of a numeral. Which is speed. Unless you can look at a number like 218 and tell me what direction that's in. With the way you're attempting to argue facts, I guess I wouldn't be surprised.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
If he wasn't "authorized" to maintain the .ini, why did you use his version? Why didn't you make your own? Oh, right, because it's a big, complex job, and you were probably glad that he was taking the initiative, right?
Why did we listen to CyQ and the other pioneers when they told us what different opcodes/parameters meant? Why did we listen to Barton when his tool was released with an INI? Why did we bother consulting the opcode database when doing so meant we trusted TbM2k? You're finally starting to ask the right questions. Maybe now you'll understand why I think it's important. This marks the first time we've EVER had to second guess somebody leading the way. Why did I use it? First of all, it's not about me. Any number of people used it. In fact, I distinctly remember hearing of crash reports well before I discovered what was going on...

Sidebar time. Lots of opportunities here. Know why I didn't know what was going on at the time crash reports came in? Because I trusted space. You're so concerned that I use "I'm Demarest" when my reputation SHOULD precede me, well would you look at that. Mr. supposedly arrogant does NOT feel it only applies to him, but also extends the benefit of the doubt to others that have earned it. Without actually knowing the facts, I just assumed the crashers were victims of their own negligence or inability. I believed in space because his record DID speak for itself and because never before did we ever have a reason to suspect somebody would knowingly do something that would crash games.

At any rate, I didn't make one of my own for several reasons, all based on precedent. Re-releasing INI's has simply never happened before. Well, I did re-issue MB 4.7's, but that's because a LOT of opcodes were omitted. I'm still finding opcodes that were first used in SA that GTA3 was fully capable of (text_draw_box for example). Apart from that, we the opcode database was updated regularly. THAT was the hub by which people coded. With SA, two disctinct changes came. For one, opcode quantity almost tripled. Secondly, TbM2k wasn't really around and/or active to keep it updated. Obviously the former is more to the point of necessitating a re-release of the INI. space saw that he was coming up with many new opcodes and the database wasn't handling it, so he saw a need to for an INI re-work and he was right. Where he was wrong was when he said "as long as I'm bothering with this, I'ma do it my way". At that point, it's no longer about helping the community. Which is fine; nothing says anybody HAS to help the community. But they're not permitted to disrupte it. It's why flaming is an offense here and why things like BREAKING the INI should be too. It's no different from releasing tool that allow one person to dominate another, "ruining" the experience for that 2nd party.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
And now that you mention it, Mr. Waterduck pissed off a lot of people like that too. But then, Barton goes waaay back to ye olde days of AGGTA, so he can honestly call pretty much anyone a noob. wink.gif
Man, you're full of contradictions, aren't you? I have NEVER claimed to be of the Barton generation. However, out of respect, I've always revered him for who he was, what he represented, where he came from, etc. So in the future, if you ever hear me say we, I'm talking about the good guys collectively. I'm not a pioneer in that manner, but I am incredibly proliferous and now with all the SCM pioneers gone, it's up to those of us who are left to continue on. Not at all a stretch for me because I've always behaved in a manner that honored those before us. Like never thinking for a moment I have any right to reorder parameters wink.gif

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
However, when challened on something, how often do you type the phrase "I'm Demarest?"
Well maybe if by best online friend at the time who knew everything he needed to know didn't ban me, I wouldn't have a need to remind them that they know me better than that. Or maybe when I'm WARNED when A) I wasn't aware of a rule B) I was given a pardon for a rule and C) the rule didn't exist, I wouldn't have to remind anybody that I have the utmost respect for the place, which is how I got to be a mod, which is why I was puristic when I was a mod, which is why to this day, my conduct has not changed from day one etc etc. I only say "I'm Demarest" when somebody does me the disservice of forgetting fact, remembering fiction, etc. That's not a me thing. That's how things work in the world. If somebody lies to you all the time, you're going to take them for a liar. If somebody never lies and somebody else accuses them of lieing, you're going to give the accused the benefit of the doubt. Feel free to look up words such as precedent and reputation.

Maybe now you're beginning to realize why it was such a big deal to me to be banned. There are people to this day that believe horrible things about me. Why? Because if one of the most level-minded, GTA-centric, and personally involved staffers (you) makes a thread announcing to the world I'm banned, it has a way of telling people they should believe the rumors. If you're really so bothered that I have to re-assert my reputation so often, maybe you shouldn't have taken that from me in the first place, eh? Back then, people DID believe in me because I never gave them a reason not to. Not that I ever have since, but you certainly have. So much so that apparently, even you are still fooled into believing that if I move for the sake of the community, it can't possibly be that I'm moving for the sake of the community.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
So the .scm format is rightfully yours?  dontgetit.gif
If you say so. I don't agree. Not that you do. You just have a way of twitsing words at times like these to try and persuade onlookers to be more captivated by the smoke than what's actually there. Yes in the past I've said rightfully mine in regards to things like 5 twinklies, GTA3 ledbyship, modship, etc. Which are still true. But no, it's clear that here when I say what's rightfully mine I'm talking about things like respect and benefit of the doubt. Like saying "Dem has an oversized av on? What gives?" Instead of "YES! Dem has an oversized av on! ZING!" Or saying "Woah, Dem never flips out like this. What's that about?" Instead of STUPID sh*t like "So the SCM format is yours?" Or how about things like when the work forum was being setup? I handled the PR at that time if you don't recall. I would say to Azkoyen "Hey, this guy should be in." He didn't research the guy I was talking about, he let them in. Becuase he knew if I said "this guy should be in" it didn't mean "hey, this guy suits me" but rather that I was in touch with the modding scene and well aware of who's who.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
I don't give a f*ck about the violence in and of itself. My point is lots of people get put off by the whole immature intertube tough guy thing.
You don't mean sailboats, you mean schooners? Point remains that neither are me. I'm as put off by those who would use or even threaten violence, the internet tough guy thing, etc... Don't believe me, start checking warn logs. The reason people like Cerb refer to me the way he does is becuase I was iron fist, no punches pulled with anybody and everybody that could be classified as a bully. My record speaks for itself. My outburst was wrong. I could say that people lose their cool and say things they don't mean, but that's not my style either. Maybe if those who know better would listen, instead of trying to participate in something they obviously don't know the related facts to, it would've never come to that. I'm talking in part about you too you know. Yes this conversation is after the fact, but look at how hard you're trying to simply represent the other side when clearly there are key facts that you're missing. I'm capable of being wrong. This isn't one of those times. Differing INI's, ESPECIALLY if they have different param orders WILL crash games and therefore will not be tolerated. My outburst was because I REALLY can't believe my eyes when I see the accomplished saying it's not a big deal just because THEY know how to work around it. Nevermind the little people, the new guys, etc. Nevermind the fact that if ONE person could work around... their ego, then all the other people wouldn't have to work around sh*t. The way it's always been.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
That statement doesn't give you cognitive dissonance? It basically works out to: "I don't care if you're a noob unless you're a noob!"
If a person doesn't know to breathe, they're going to die. That's a fact and as being a fact, it doesn't reflect upon ME in the slightest.

Let's recap: I refered to space as a new guy based on the fact that he doesn't have the common decency to respect those before him as evidenced by the fact that A) he's willing to corrupt his own code to lock people out of it (unprecedented) B) he's willing to use the work of other, but try to claim copyright to it (unprecedented) C) he's willing to alter things that have been in place for years, even though doing so will crash games. You countered by saying that space isn't new because he's been seen elsewhere, join date doesn't give the whole picture, etc. I clarified that my condescending label has nothing to do with join date, but rather his regard for those before him. Remember how pissed you were when you mistook me for putting myself on a level with Steve? Oh ho ho! So maybe you ARE aware of what I'm talking about and just pretending not to to cast a shadow on the real issue. You also mistook something I said as me suggesting I deserve a place in the history books alongside ODIE. That too pissed you off and not just because you took it as a gross misstatement, but because it hit close to home. And while you didn't resort to violent threats, your reaction and its impact were quite violent. This is no different because the SCM community is dear to me, particularly when you start saying names like Barton and CyQ. And yes, my laundry list of space's poor form IS sh*tting on their work. Same thing. Different outcome because I'm Demarest, which means things like promising witch hunts, global denouncement etc are okay.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
By updating something which Barton is no longer around to do?
Barton doesn't have to be here for somebody to know that it's called destroy_car, not delete_vehicle. Same goes for everybody else that ever contributed. I'm not them, but I've discovered a few opcodes myself. When I discovered 035F, did I name it "add to this guy's armor"? Or did I name it "increment_actor_armor"? Same thing, right? Except that one honors those before me by maintaing a streamlined manner of labeling. I don't believe for a second that you can't follow along here.

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
Would you rather we just carve the opcode list in stone as it was when Barton left, and not have use of any newly discovered functions?
Is this about the naming of since then discovered opcodes? Or is it about altering parameter orders which WILL crash games? Get your head straight. Oh, but I just gave an example of even that, so... covered cool.gif

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
Your analogy is fatally flawed. You can cheat, hack, or mod your single player game all you want and it only affects your experience. When people cheat in an online game, it makes it unplayable for everyone else on the server.
Kind of like how a user is welcome to alter their own INI however they choose, but when they release it, they run the risk of making the game unplayable for everyone else. wow.gif

QUOTE (illspirit @ Oct 24 2006, 04:41)
If you really want to use the single player analogy, it would be more like someone breaking into your house while you're out, and f*cking all the .dat files so you could never finish any missions. And then sneaking in again the next day and breaking it again after you fix it.
But it's just a game. Just a hobby. We don't have a responsibility to not f*ck with other people's games. That's what you said.

Tornado Rex
  • Tornado Rex

    *nix gets the chicks

  • $outh $ide Hoodz
  • Joined: 12 Nov 2001

#38

Posted 24 October 2006 - 04:06 PM

Alright, I'm gonna make a few assumptions here because I'm not about to go read the referring topic. I read most of this one so I think I get most of what's going on. Basically, someone edited an .SCM, Demmy went to test it, it f*cked up his game somehow, he's now throwing a hissy fit. Yeah? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming that's the case, here's my dos pennies.

Dem, you're being a f*cking asshat. Lets get down to the basics of installing a mod on your game. Last time I checked you're taking a risk of sh*t getting f*cked up. I don't care who coded it. That's in final versions. Now from what I got out of this, you were testing a non-final version. Hell I'd expect it to f*ck up my game. All that aside, what's the big f*cking deal? Did it chop your dick off too or something? Get over it. IT'S A f*ckING GAME (I can make that bigger if you want to argue the point). Reinstall the sh*t and try again. It takes all of 10 minutes and I know if you're writing Doctorate-thesis-statement long posts you have 10 minutes to reinstall a f*cking game.

Mark
  • Mark

  • Feroci
  • Joined: 15 Aug 2002
  • United-Kingdom

#39

Posted 24 October 2006 - 04:29 PM

Is it just me, or does one think that one previously banned member, arguing with multiple mods and admins, will not survive being unbanned for longer than a few more days? Not mentioning who, of course wink.gif.

@Cerb: I keep agreeing with you more and more these days, I must say. Maybe this time it's cause I really can't be bothered reading so much purple crap text.

Demarest
  • Demarest

    what could be

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 12 Jul 2003

#40

Posted 24 October 2006 - 04:49 PM

QUOTE (Tornado Rex @ Oct 24 2006, 12:06)
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay.

Mission Builder is the tool I use to mission code. It's the one many do, but there's others. Barton Waterduck is the author. Barton's been around since forever. However, even he isn't a SCM pioneer as others even before him cracked the SCM format. By cracked SCM format I mean they took the native code the computer reads as
CODE
9A000418052B01068F2E1C45060010D2C40685EB454102080245020208020E064641544D414E
and tell us that it means decompiled code
CODE
009A: $130 = create_actor  24 #SPECIAL10 at  2498.91 -1680.5  12.37
0245: set_actor $130 walk_style_to "FATMAN"
In other words, they made SCM modding possible starting about 4 years ago. Barton was one of the only tool builders, so his work essentially put that possibility into the hands of "the common man". Notice in the 2nd codebox words like create_actor and walk_style_to? Those words mean nothing to the computer, but helps humans read it. In other words, it is THE translator between the machine code the computer's looking for and the stuff we would need to make it readily modifiable.

But that's not the only thing it does. It also tells the Builder when putting the code back together that in the last line for example, $130 comes before FATMAN. Swap them around and your game will crash because the INI says it needs to be in a certain order. Obviously, MB came with an INI. However, at the time, many opcodes were unknown as they were new. They didn't get a name. So as these things are discovered, their names are published. Unless each person goes back, updates their INI, re-establishes their source code by decompiling again, etc it will remain unnamed in their code. What would be nice is if somebody took the time to update the INI with all the new known descriptions so that people who DO choose to decompile again as well as all the new people have full use.

Well, a modder named spaceeinstein chose to do exactly that. He had already done a lot of work for naming unknown opcodes, so it was good to see him taking it home. The problem begins in a way where I can use the first line above (009A: $130 = create_actor 24 #SPECIAL10 at 2498.91 -1680.5 12.37) as an example. The game looks for those values in a different order than we see them. That could be confusing for a beginner coder EXCEPT that the coder doesn't need to worry about such things at all as the INI tells the MB how to order them properly so the game will work. Well what space did wasn't JUST naming unknown opcoded. He also changed the parameter orders. This is significant for a number of reasons. For one, it's never been done before. In the past, very few laid the groundwork and those that have added to it since then have stayed in line with them out of respect. After all, were it not for them, people like us could never participate in the first place. This marked the first time a modder went against the grain. The major reason that this is significant though is that it WILL crash games. I'll give you an example from my own experience.

Started SA coding a little over a year ago. First decompiled the code to produce the source code. Meaning that I now had a copy of the text representation and rather than go through the timely process of making that each time, I just copy paste and go from there. At one point, space releases an updated INI with reordered params. I wanted to be able to read the code better, so I decompile again. I didn't know there was a different param order as there simply shouldn't be. NOBODY has the right to mess with that aspect. Well now I have two different copies of code unbeknownst to me. Which means anything I release might not even work and I'll never know because there's only so much testing a modder can do without playing the game to 100% and beyond with each change. Being that I try to encourage others to learn, I always release my code. Well say somebody wanting to use my code has one INI, but starts using my code from a different INI? His game WILL crash. And he'll either blame himself, which is unnecessary, or he'll blame me which is untrue. The real culprit was the person who for the first time ever changed something, the action of which has only ONE "benefit": crashing games.

I'm glad your opinion of me is so low that when you get the idea that somehow, years later, I could possibly not realize that a crashing game is part of the risk of using a mod, you run with it. This isn't a mod. This is a foundation that mod AUTHORS use. Which means there is a trickle down effect, with each level affecting more and more people. Whereas ONE person (space) could've had the common decency that we all have for years to leave it as it is, that ONE person made changes that crash the work of who knows how many people. If that ONE person would've just done what's always been done, there'd be no problem.

But I appreciate you assuming the worst sarcasm.gif I really wish I knew what point I went from being able to give people private access to a subforum because I know the modding scene to being suspected of a tantrum because a mod wouldn't work. The second you suspect such a thing, you should know there's got to be more to it than that. A lot more.

@GTAuron: Look again. It's one of the remaining leaders of the coding scene trying to get a team of guys who prefer preconceived notions (like yourself) over the fact that they know nothing of the modding scene and care nothing of the GTA scene.

TwoZero
  • TwoZero

    Ghetto Star

  • The Connection
  • Joined: 15 Apr 2003

#41

Posted 24 October 2006 - 05:18 PM

You're an asshat Demarest, if I would have any respect for you at this point, it would be gone now.

Not even going to give arguments, this topic makes it clear enough that you don't listen to anything anyone says anyway.

ceedj
  • ceedj

    PEDS Creator

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  • Joined: 21 May 2005
  • United-States

#42

Posted 24 October 2006 - 06:49 PM

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 24 2006, 12:49)
It's one of the remaining leaders of the coding scene

Did I missing a voting process somewhere? Who made you a leader? Because you know WAY more than the rest of us?

Intellegence does not make a leader, though it certainly helps. Making long, drawn out, overly-detailed posts does not make a leader.

If you'd like to be recognized as a leader, how about you try acting like one, mmKay?

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
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#43

Posted 24 October 2006 - 08:15 PM

In today's class we'll be studying Argumentum verbosium. Here is your
case study. Extra credit is available for pointing out the other logical fallacies -- we've made sure include plenty of them!


N.B. Copying from illspirit's earlier work is strictly prohibited.

anuj
  • anuj

    iconic

  • The Precinct
  • Joined: 17 Jan 2002
  • None

#44

Posted 24 October 2006 - 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 24 2006, 09:42)
QUOTE (anuj @ Oct 24 2006, 04:16)
all it got me was a kick in the ass because it made you feel like you're above the rules once again.
No... it was a stupid rule. One you KNOW I didn't know about until you said something. I was on staff when the sig rules were drafted. There was no avatar filesize limit because it's one of those things that common sense dictated anyways. What it got you was a little bit of respect for being able to use your brain instead of diving to zing me as part of some knee-jerk reaction... like this time wink.gif


Yes, yes. It's all because you're you. God knows that I didn't remove 30-something other user's avatars before the rule was removed.

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 24 2006, 09:42)
QUOTE (anuj @ Oct 24 2006, 04:16)
Go me. From now on, I'm going to enforce the rules to the letter. I'll admit, illspirit corrected me on the avatar bit. But from now on, consider the witch-hunt in full f*cking swing. You so much as break the slightest rule, and I'm going to use it as an excuse to make you an example.
Blah, blah, blah. For somebody who's "grown up" as you claim, you sure do waste a lot of time. This occurance marks the 3rd such hunt. Your prdecessors didn't waste as much time before randomly changing my member title, etc... just because you can. Don't worry, I'm Demarest; nothing you do will come back to you in any form, so have at it already.


Changing your member title? At first I thought you were just arrogant, now I'm starting you suspect you're a little paranoid.

PS: Coming from someone who has three times as many posts as I do in a two year shorter span, it's really a pot-kettle situation when you say I waste time.

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 24 2006, 09:42)
QUOTE (anuj @ Oct 24 2006, 04:16)
If you're going to put yourself up as a martyr, you might as f*cking well be justified, sweetheart.
If only you were able to follow along with anything this has to do with, you MIGHT be qualified to even speak on the matter. All you have to do is look at illspirit's misgivings here to see that it takes more than knowing how to SCM some to know the who's who, what's what, and the why's.


I don't have to own a farm to know how to choke a chicken, someone once said. I can see the after effects of your c*ntery here.

As such, I'm removing two of your karma stars for repeated harassment of other forum members. You're our top poster, Demarest. You should know better.

Have a nice one, brother.
  • SWEETSAPRIK likes this

illspirit
  • illspirit

    lycanthroplasty

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  • Joined: 01 May 1976
  • None

#45

Posted 24 October 2006 - 10:39 PM

QUOTE
So my initial fervor was because it bit ME in the ass, so any efforts since must be personal in nature?


Well, you are taking this whole thing rather f*cking personally. So, erm, yea.

QUOTE
However, when it WILL crash games, it cannot be allowed to pass.


So fix it, and move along. Problem solved.

QUOTE
Uh... they're nothing alike. Not changing the param order, naming scheme etc is an instinct. Changing them is a decision.


Uh... they're everything alike. Clearing a weapon before putting your finger on the trigger in your kitchen should be instinct as well. Putting your finger on said trigger it is a decision. In Space's case, failure of instinct when swapping var's resulted in bad .scm when he chose to release the ini. In the case of an ND, failure of instinct when swapping cartridges out of chambers and stuff results in bad drywall (or dead people) when choosing to release the hammer.

QUOTE
So why then does his work have a copyright notice in it?


No idea. Is that even relevant?

QUOTE
Oh and he's even put in a bullsh*t opcode just to prevent Sanny users from being able to decompile it.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barton himself start the practice of adding a junk opcode as salt to prevent incompatible tools from opening scripts to prevent error and stuff?

QUOTE
With Jacob, you're saying that he's like tampering with your files and going in and messing it up again after you fix it, but when space does EXACTLY THAT, it's just a fun hobby and we don't owe anybody the most basic of instincts in modding, which is to enhance the experience, not halt it? Figure you'll have this one wrapped up by the afternoon, detective?


Right. Space is trying to have fun while helping people, and made a mistake in the process. Jacob's idea of fun is intentionally creating grief. Mens rea, post hoc ergo propter hoc, and all that.

QUOTE
He did. This is why you need to look past the fact that it tampered with MY work and look at the bigger picture. You go on to badmouth me for saying "I'm Demarest", but the times that happens is when... oh I don't know... you ban me when you're the ONE person who should KNOW that I'm not capable of things you hear. Or as is the case here that if I'm on a tirade against somebody who knowingly messes with peoples games because it destroys a unity we've established and preserved that preys upon the less talented, it means that *gasp* it's somebody who knowingly messes with peoples games because it destroys a unity we've established and preserved that preys upon the less talented.


He did? orly.gif Where did he say he intentionally changed it to crash people's games? Last I checked, he said he only knew he f*cked up after you brought it up, and that he didn't know it would crash games.

QUOTE
No, the problem is that for whatever reason, you refuse to believe that if I'm moved on the subject, there MUST be a reason.


Umm, I believe you that there's a reason the broken bit was a problem. I've said as much several times already. After it was identified and fixed, wtf is the point of shouting about it for days though? dozingoff.gif

QUOTE
I've already catalogued the unnecessary and extreme measure I had to go through just to identify the culprit.


Yes, we know it caused you great hardship and toil, and on behalf of everyone else making mods, thank you for finding the problem. Now quit crying over spilled milk and walk it off? I'm running out of tiny violins here. tounge.gif

QUOTE
No I didn't. You can stop twisting/fabricating my words because a lot of the rest of your post either makes this fundamental mistake or the one whereby you swear by space's innocence because he's human.


So you didn't just say like half a dozen times that you feel he intentionally tried to destroy the community or some such? notify.gif

QUOTE
On that note, while not quite as critical, Pynton has not only changed variables.ini labels that are four years old, he's even encouraged a newer coder to "do his own thing" in the context of trying to convince somebody who's trying to learn coding to use whatever labels he chooses.


And if someone wishes to change all their local labels to reflect various flavors of yummy, delicious pies, why can't they? If we're all allowed to mod our own game however, and Jacob is some sort of hero for essentially modding other people's games without their consent, why can't someone use their own .ini? If they try to release code that nobody else can use, that's their loss.

QUOTE
What did I say? Did I not say I give credit where credit is due? Do I really have to pull out "I'm Demarest" and remind you that I give credit where credit is due? I've NEVER torn down space for the contributions he's made. Only the detractions.


Right. You're tearing him down for minor, erroneous detractions amongst all his contributions. If we did this to everybody, nobody would want to undertake a major project if they risked being ripped apart over any mistakes.

QUOTE
See how it says immune to headshots? By that description, 0 would mean not immune to headshots and 1 would mean immune to headshots. But the truth is the exact opposite.


Yes. I know this. I thought the (un)immunity var was syntactically backwards to begin with though.

QUOTE
4 parameters. The first is an object. The remaining 3 are XYZ directions. As in, 2nd position is X, 3rd position is Y, and 4th position is Z. Their position gives them direction. The values themselves however are STILL only capable of a numeral. Which is speed. Unless you can look at a number like 218 and tell me what direction that's in. With the way you're attempting to argue facts, I guess I wouldn't be surprised.


I think we're talking about a different opcode here. But, still, directions are often converted to numbers; either as a quaternion, angle, or planar target coordinates. Obviously there aren't three simultaneous speeds, right? So if X is speed, what are Y and Z? I haven't coded since GTA2, and therefore don't know if they still use angles/quat's/targets/tangents or what anymore, but I would imagine Y and Z are pitch and yaw. As you said, the initial direction or trajectory is derived from the objects position, and adding lateral or vertical directional speed (aka velocity) would cause the obect's trajectory to curve. Or maybe Y and Z are an angle and another speed to create such a curve? Don't look at me, I make triangles. turn.gif

QUOTE
Why did we listen to CyQ and the other pioneers when they told us what different opcodes/parameters meant? Why did we listen to Barton when his tool was released with an INI? Why did we bother consulting the opcode database when doing so meant we trusted TbM2k? You're finally starting to ask the right questions. Maybe now you'll understand why I think it's important. This marks the first time we've EVER had to second guess somebody leading the way.


Eh? You mean nobody's ever f*cked up a single opcode before? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

QUOTE
At any rate, I didn't make one of my own for several reasons, all based on precedent. Re-releasing INI's has simply never happened before. Well, I did re-issue MB 4.7's, but that's because a LOT of opcodes were omitted. I'm still finding opcodes that were first used in SA that GTA3 was fully capable of (text_draw_box for example). Apart from that, we the opcode database was updated regularly. THAT was the hub by which people coded. With SA, two disctinct changes came. For one, opcode quantity almost tripled. Secondly, TbM2k wasn't really around and/or active to keep it updated. Obviously the former is more to the point of necessitating a re-release of the INI. space saw that he was coming up with many new opcodes and the database wasn't handling it, so he saw a need to for an INI re-work and he was right.


So he was doing something that needed to be done which nobody else was doing? What was I saying about initiative before....

QUOTE
Where he was wrong was when he said "as long as I'm bothering with this, I'ma do it my way". At that point, it's no longer about helping the community. Which is fine; nothing says anybody HAS to help the community. But they're not permitted to disrupte it. It's why flaming is an offense here and why things like BREAKING the INI should be too. It's no different from releasing tool that allow one person to dominate another, "ruining" the experience for that 2nd party.


And he made a mistake. Quick, ban him for trying to do something good!

QUOTE
Man, you're full of contradictions, aren't you? I have NEVER claimed to be of the Barton generation. However, out of respect, I've always revered him for who he was, what he represented, where he came from, etc.


Nor did I say you said you said it. I was simply pointing out Mr. Waterduck had been around long enough to complain about anyone being a "newcomer." Yet even though he totally earned it, he still pissed people off.

QUOTE
Well maybe if by best online friend at the time who knew everything he needed to know didn't ban me, I wouldn't have a need to remind them that they know me better than that. Or maybe when I'm WARNED


And, erm, who said what about anything related to warnings or bans? I was talking about when you bring it up in code related arguments, but now that you mention it... tounge.gif

QUOTE
If you say so. I don't agree. Not that you do. You just have a way of twitsing words at times like these to try and persuade onlookers to be more captivated by the smoke than what's actually there.


Twisting words? You said your anger or whatever only comes out when something is "rightfully yours." While defending your anger over the var swap by saying it had nothing to do with your work. Which is it?

QUOTE
You don't mean sailboats, you mean schooners? Point remains that neither are me. I'm as put off by those who would use or even threaten violence, the internet tough guy thing, etc...


Okay, fair enough, you did work that out on your own and wandered off for a few days to cool off. So for that you do get some credit. All I'm trying to say is you were (and are) taking this intertube sh*t way too f*cking serious. Yes, I know you're trying to help, but annoying the crap out of everyone is only helpful for so long. wink.gif

Perhaps it would be in everybody's best interest to devote the energy being spent quarreling to devise a plan so something like this never happens again? If there's not one already, maybe set up a CVS for the "official" ini so everyone can see and test changes as they happen? Or vote on some sort of release/testing schedule?

QUOTE
If a person doesn't know to breathe, they're going to die. That's a fact and as being a fact, it doesn't reflect upon ME in the slightest.

Let's recap: I refered to space as a new guy based on the fact that he doesn't have the common decency to respect those before him as evidenced by the fact that A) he's willing to corrupt his own code to lock people out of it (unprecedented) B) he's willing to use the work of other, but try to claim copyright to it (unprecedented) C) he's willing to alter things that have been in place for years, even though doing so will crash games. You countered by saying that space isn't new because he's been seen elsewhere, join date doesn't give the whole picture, etc. I clarified that my condescending label has nothing to do with join date, but rather his regard for those before him.


Po - tay -toe, po- tah -toe. You're still hating on him because he's too new to do things.

QUOTE
Barton doesn't have to be here for somebody to know that it's called destroy_car, not delete_vehicle. Same goes for everybody else that ever contributed. I'm not them, but I've discovered a few opcodes myself. When I discovered 035F, did I name it "add to this guy's armor"? Or did I name it "increment_actor_armor"? Same thing, right? Except that one honors those before me by maintaing a streamlined manner of labeling. I don't believe for a second that you can't follow along here.


Oh, I follow, but you're arguing semantics. One doesn't have to be a clone of those who came before to honor them. Inconsistent naming conventions are a rather common trait of projects involving more than one person...

QUOTE
Is this about the naming of since then discovered opcodes? Or is it about altering parameter orders which WILL crash games?


No, it's about you flipping the f*ck out because someone made a mistake while updating things. If you (or anyone else) were to eat everyone alive who made a mistake, nobody would want to bother with it, and there would be no progress.

QUOTE
But it's just a game. Just a hobby. We don't have a responsibility to not f*ck with other people's games. That's what you said.


No. Space (or anyone else) has no obligation to do work for anyone. Space does not get paid to work for anyone. Therefore, if Space makes a mistake and breaks something, there is no money to demand back, no civil liability, and no job to be fired from if one voluntarily chooses to use his work. If one doesn't want their mod or game broken, they may choose not to use Space's .ini, or choose not to install a mod.

Jacob, on the other hand, hacks (and explicitly facilitates such hacks) into working games and breaks them with no consent, choice, or action taken by users on the other end.

One of these things is not like the other. Again, one involves mens rea. Ask your lawyer to explain the concept to you sometime...
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palaric8
  • palaric8

    pEAcE And lOve YEAHhH!!!!

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#46

Posted 24 October 2006 - 10:50 PM

i thought dem was a respected member..

Demarest you double posted. tounge2.gif thats another infraction lol.gif

Otter
  • Otter

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#47

Posted 25 October 2006 - 01:31 AM Edited by Otter, 25 October 2006 - 02:21 AM.

Liam, I apologize. I had yet to see the depths before me.

Dem, my friend, you need to choke down a slice of humble pie. Start with this slice.

iRloading
  • iRloading

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#48

Posted 25 October 2006 - 07:22 AM

ehrm...

sooooo... from what i've read, Dem - verbally abused members

that IS warrant for a warning and IS considered a FLAME...

so DexX gave you his two cents on your behavior...

isnt this normal for every mod who reprimands a "normal" member in gtaf?

i'm sorry... I just dont see what gives you the right to act like the whole forum revolves around you... like every attack against you is an attack on GOD which every person MUST know, and immediate action MUST take place...

jihad?

it's like your asking, no demanding rather... that every mod get on their knees and ask you for forgiveness...

shouldn't you be on your knees, kissing their feet for letting you back in?

no? then why are you constantly bringing this crap out into the public... oh yeah... DexX blocked your pm's...

must be a major blow to your pride and ego turn.gif

for every action made, there is a reason~ the difference among them is which is right and wrong...

your reason of "verbally reprimanding" another member is brought about in "good reason"~ but the action being your "use of words" and your attitude about this ordeal is definately in the wrong, and as you say it "unprofessional"

now you treat your karma with reverence and importance as if it's your last link to being an "important factor" in the forums...

again, pride and ego^

it's not a "rank" which states your a BETTER member than anyone~

it's probably been said before but, get off your high horse...

your not even supposed to have a horse...

Guybrush Threepwood
  • Guybrush Threepwood

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#49

Posted 25 October 2006 - 07:34 AM

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 23 2006, 04:34)
ASCII finger says hi.

ASCII FINGER DOES NOT SAY HI! IT DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING!
IT BASKS IN HATRED!
user posted image

I've got no idea about the rest of the topic, but as the Sole Proprietor of the Ascii Finger Sig (or SPAFS), I needed to clear some misunderstandings about ascii finger.
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chaosislife
  • chaosislife

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#50

Posted 25 October 2006 - 08:01 AM

ummm im no math or physics wiz but to my mind those last three parameters should and most likely are speeds.not knowing which is actually which i'll make a half ass example here:

up/+
X = -------
down/-

left/+
Y = --------
right/-

forward/+
Z = ---------------
backwards/-


so then a value of say 1,-2,3 could mean that the object would be moving upwards at 1mph,right at 2mph,and forwards at 3mph, all at the same time and that would then be that objects velocity

is that understandable?

Mark
  • Mark

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#51

Posted 25 October 2006 - 11:32 AM Edited by GTAuron, 25 October 2006 - 11:42 AM.

QUOTE
@GTAuron: Look again. It's one of the remaining leaders of the coding scene trying to get a team of guys who prefer preconceived notions (like yourself) over the fact that they know nothing of the modding scene and care nothing of the GTA scene.


Go Jesus go! You can't make people interested in something they no longer have an interest in. If people choose not to be interested in the GTA side of the forums anymore, then let them. If you're trying to get people more involved in modding, and in general GTA, your technique is definately not the way to do it. Encouragement is what is needed in a voluntary community. This isn't like being in the armed forces. You can't order people to do stuff.

Are you saying I know nothing of the modding scene? Tell me the date of your last post in either the MI forum, Vehicles, or any of the editing discussion topics bar coding or tutorials. You say you know about the modding community?

So please, get off your high horse, and encourage people. I know it's oh so hard for you, but bring yourself down to our level, and work with people who are in fact no different from you. You have no right to throw a hissy fit like this whenever you feel like it mate. You are not god, simply because you can program. Make a car. Ever ventured into that side of the community? No. Oh, and before you throw that back at me, I have tinkered with coding. Open your eyes to other parts of the community, and admit you do not know EVERYTHING.

Now stop flaming and act your age, not your shoe size (though with much better grammatical skills tounge.gif)
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Goodfella.
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#52

Posted 26 October 2006 - 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 23 2006, 21:41)
I'm dangerous when motivated, I knew I would one day sit amongst the greats of the GTA community.

Lol, you love the smell of your own farts, don't you.
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Bryce.
  • Bryce.

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#53

Posted 26 October 2006 - 02:31 AM

QUOTE (MyMothersMySister @ Oct 22 2006, 21:11)
In regards to GTA. I own 1, 2, London, 3 on PC with PS2 versions of GTA3, Vice and San andreas. Topped off with a lovely seasoning of LCS on psp. The fact I don't spend countless hours strutting my coding skills around impressionable youngsters doesn't mean I don't know what Gta is. I just take it for what it is. A game. Not a way of life or something to obsess and threaten youngsters over.


I found this hillariously ironic coming from the person who lives and breathes Battlefield 2.

Now as for this topic, I can see both sides of the argument, but to start a topic to publically bitch at eachother is quite stupid.

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

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#54

Posted 26 October 2006 - 02:42 AM Edited by Cerbera, 26 October 2006 - 02:50 AM.

QUOTE (Demarest @ Oct 23 2006, 21:41)
I'm dangerous when motivated, I knew I would one day sit amongst the greats of the GTA community.
Bloody hell, I missed that! One of the greats, eh? ROFLMAO! tounge2.gif

I could write a comparison of you against someone else, like Delfi, Steve-M, Respawn, GForce, or a hundred other modders. But why bother? You do nothing of significance in GTA modding. When you get banned, it doesn't even cause a ripple in the ocean of talent. When you come back, nobody notices.

If you were banned again it would aid modding because there'd be one less c*nt bitching at the newcomers. The number of newbies who come to me after you've persued them round the forums, crapping on everything they post...you f*cking make me sick, Dem. You're a disgrace to modding, not an asset.

So anyway, if you're such hot sh*t with all things SCM then why havn't you catalogued all the opcodes meticulously using a syntax everyone likes? If you're one of the greatest GTA modders ever, where the f*ck is your immacculate compiler/decompiler for the SCM format?

You're a talentless fraud, Dem. Everyone but you can see that.

-shaDow
  • -shaDow

    half man, half amazing

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#55

Posted 26 October 2006 - 02:47 AM

This thread gave me a serious douche chill.
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DJ-Jelly-Doughnut
  • DJ-Jelly-Doughnut

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#56

Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:46 AM

Demarast you are a "member" of GTAforums, people get banned and people get ignored... accept the fact that you are one of the other 130,000 members and you aren't immune from the rules and violations... My two cents is that you've been privilaged to get this far... and that GTAforums staff can only be so lenient....

skatingfreak666
  • skatingfreak666

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#57

Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:56 AM

Here's my 2 cents, I've just uncovered this topic cause I'm lyk omg this is gunna be good.. Turned out bad yeah? Dem I'm on your side although i hardly know you man I'm on you side =) And if i get banned for being on his side It's f*cking pathetic! Just because he's been banned before doesn't mean anything Illspirit wanted to un-ban him it was his decision.
Why don't this get locked or something, no one gets banned just get over it.. If it doesn't Dem I'll support you all the way icon14.gif

ceedj
  • ceedj

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#58

Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:42 AM Edited by ceedj, 26 October 2006 - 10:44 AM.

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Oct 25 2006, 22:42)
I could write a comparison of you against someone else, like Delfi, Steve-M, Respawn, GForce, or a hundred other modders. But why bother? You do nothing of significance in GTA modding. When you get banned, it doesn't even cause a ripple in the ocean of talent. When you come back, nobody notices.


I'm gonna have to disagree here. He has come up with some very unique tools and is obviously very smart with mission coding. I don't think that should be taken away from him. However...

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Oct 25 2006, 22:42)
because there'd be one less c*nt bitching at the newcomers. The number of newbies who come to me after you've persued them round the forums, crapping on everything they post...


This I totally agree with. He really does come off as a condescending jerk a lot of the time, and a number of people tend to look elsewhere for answers because of it. Does it constitue a banning? No, I really don't think so.

He DOES have a tendancy to be verbally abusive, and that's the heart of this. For someone who has been a part of the forums for as long as he has, you'd think he'd pick up on this little nugget. Fighting with the mods about it isn't really helping his cause either, because as everyone here knows, you just don't go around pissing off the wrong people. He abosolutely needs to recognize that this is NOT a democracy here, and fighting with the staff is going to get him banned at some point or another.

Should he be allowed to continue to contribute? Sure, as long as an incident like what happened with Space doesn't happen again (see, like I told you before Demmy; it's not that you pointed out a potential problem with Space's mods that most people have a problem with. It's how you go about it that sends everyone into a tizzy). So, let him contribute; he has an obvious passion for the game and modding it, regardless that some of us may feel he's way too obsessive about it.

But a leader? No way. A true leader for mission coding (or anything, really) should be FAR more objective, tolerant of the newcomers, and open to new ideas. From what I've seen, that isn't likely to happen anytime soon.
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Svip
  • Svip

    I eat babies

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#59

Posted 26 October 2006 - 12:34 PM

First of all, I would love to thank Demarest and this topic's contributors. It is not often I get to laugh so much through a topic.

That's why I often look in this forum, because there are from time to time some good topics, where some serious drama is played out.

Demarest, like Cerbera used to be, won't admit he is wrong. He like... our Tom Cruise. Next thing, Demarest joins Scientology or something.

So, Cerbera, to answer your question what Demarest is still here, it is like I said, he is our Tom Cruise, you wish to get rid of him, but for some reason you can't. It is one of those things that won't go away.

Like AIDS, humanity, stupidity, and nuclear weapons. Why are they still here? Because we are all paranoid, we only wish to save our own skin in the end. When the chopper comes and there is only room for one, I would like everyone else rush to it. God, I love humans.

Anyways, I wish not to disturb the topic, as, like I said, it is good entertainment. Kodus to you, Demarest.

P.S. Just a heads up, yes, everybody is after you. Look out side your window, someone from here is trying to stalk you.
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Mark
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#60

Posted 26 October 2006 - 12:46 PM

LOL @Svip some nice light entertainment brought in, and comically true too smile.gif.

I don't think Dem should be banned, but he's gotta stop acting like he is, plus he should just take the warning for what it is. End of topic. If someone warns you, strips you of karma, whatever, just take it on the chin.




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