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The San Andreas minimal kill challenge!

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balatro
  • balatro

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#1

Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:04 PM Edited by balatro, 12 August 2009 - 07:16 PM.

"True power lies not in the ability to kill, but the ability to refrain from killing when it is within your means."

Top Scores -- Updated August 12th, 2009

radicell - 193
Jasper Petrol - 199
imut_knight - 232 (Used "Proof" Vehicles)
Demarest - 161 (Used Vigilante Exploit, Used "Proof" Vehicles)
balatro - 269


UPDATE: May 20th, 2008: Updated exploding car trick and tear gas canister trick.

To jump directly to Individual mission/task 100% help, CLICK HERE. There will be spoilers for the challenge in that thread -- you've been warned!

I'm sure many of us here had beaten San Andreas many times over. But how many people have you wasted by the time you finally get that coveted 100%? Hundreds? Thousands? You'd think that a single individual that tallies over a couple thousand kills over a span of a few months would garner lots of attention, even in a place with as high a body count as San Andreas.

So here's the challenge: Finish San Andreas with as low a kill count as possible (i.e. the lowest amount of people wasted). Submit your results, and I'll try to keep a running tally. I'll most likely take your word for it (aka honour system), but keep your saved games as proof just in case somebody decides to challenge your results.

Some tiebreakers may be needed. So here is the judging criteria, in descending order:
  1. Number of people wasted -- the lower the better
  2. Number of recruited gang members killed -- the lower the better
  3. Ammunation and Pay 'n' Spray budget -- the lower the better
I would have included the number of times wasted and busted, but given the nature of this challenge, I suspect that most of you would reload if something so disastrous was to occur.

Some additional restrictions/rules are in order to prevent exploitation of some of the more serious bugs/design flaws.
  1. Needless to say, you must achieve 100%. However, you can do anything that's not part of the 100% as long as you think you can still meet the challenge.
  2. No early trips to any unopened areas! That means any area that would give you the automatic four star rating. This includes the Reuniting the Families Exploit and the Da Nang Thang Exploit! However, I'll permit entry into airports before getting the pilot's license. And of course you can go over any bodies of water you want, as long as you don't trigger the four-star thing.
  3. No using of the Inside Track Betting in Los Santos or Montgomery, ever! Makes money come by too easily -- as if it isn't easy enough already.
  4. For vehicle missions like Paramedic and Vigilante, no going above the minimum level needed to get 100%! For example, this means you must stop Vigilante once you get to level 12, and no more -- though I suspect in the case of Vigilante, you'll be automatically stopping at level 12 anyway since you want to keep your kill count low. Once again, this is mostly to make cash a bit harder to come by.
  5. For any money generating assets, you cannot do anymore missions for them once they start generating revenue! The one exception would be CJ's house -- you can do all the gang wars you want to increase the revenue there.
  6. No using of ANY cheat codes, ever!
  7. (Optional restriction) For the Vigilante mission, you cannot you the enter-into-interior-and-wait exploit. This is mostly for you PS2 users out there. smile.gif This is an optional restriction however, so you can still use them if you want. Just let the rest of us doing the challenge know that you're using them.
  8. (Optional restriction) No using of any bulletproof, damageproof, explosionproof, or fireproof vehicles! The only exceptions to this list are the Rhino and the S.W.A.T. This is an optional restriction however, so you can still use them if you want. Just let the rest of us doing the challenge know that you're using them.
I would have added no abusing the save system to get rid of wanted levels, but since almost every safehouse has a closet, that's sort of a moot point. Meh. Maybe if I get around to drafting a similar challenge for Vice City...

To help you guys make the most of the challenge, I've included a 100% completion list, accompanied by the lowest people wasted count I've been able to achieve, and some hints and tips for them. Feel free to contribute to this list -- I'll try to update often. The list will be in another thread to keep going over the post count limit, and to cut possible spoilers down to a minimum.

I've also included some general hints and tips that you should be on guard against. Feel free to contribute to this as well. Here are some tips that I've found to be useful.
  • By far your biggest challenge is learning how to drive properly. Most of your unnecessary kills in the game will come from, um, "incidental contact" with pedestrians as you go from point A to point B. It's very easy to rip through San Andreas and knock people like bowling pins left, right, and center, but it's hard to achieve the same speed and "thread" the traffic, so to speak. If you become an expert at driving a big vehicle and going between two cars without hitting them while going at top speed, then you've got a major leg up on the competition. Incidentally, this is what makes the vehicle missions and races so hard for the purposes of this challenge. In theory, you don't need to kill anyone to pass most of these missions (Vigilante and Pimping being exceptions), but you're going at so high a speed that the pedestrians might not have time to dodge or even dodge wrongly and jump into your path. This is to mention nothing of other cars slamming into you, causing you to spin out and wiping out a pedestrian or three with your spin...
  • Here's something that might catch you off guard: if a vehicle explodes and there are people IN it, their deaths get credited to your account regardless of whether you are responsible for the explosion or not! You don't even have to be in visible range of the explosion. The spectacular chain crashes and explosions that often occur on the highways of San Andreas comes to mind, as do the poor slobs who are still stuck in their flaming cars whenever you decide to stop the firefighter mission -- their cars blow up, killing them and adding to your kill count even if you happen to be very far away. You really have no control over this, so I'd suggest keeping away from "problem spots" as much as possible -- once again, the highways come to mind.
  • There's one section that will be sure to jack your body count up -- the gang wars. While strictly speaking not needed for 100 percent, you do need 35% of the gang territories (19 territories) to unlock the final mission. You can save yourself some unnecessary kills if you recruit gang members, but keep tiebreaker #2 in mind.
  • Speaking of recruited gang members, they are one good way to keep your own kill count low. Just because this challenge is about keeping your kill count down does not mean that the kill count of others is subject to the same restriction! Let your recruited men, if you have them, make as much of the kills as possible. To keep them surviving longer, soften up your targets with a few non-lethal hits first.
  • If you do not have recruited homies to help you out, all is not lost: if you bail out of your car while traveling at high speeds, and your car hits and kills someone, the kill is not counted against you. You take some damage from this of course, but the tradeoff of not having made a kill is worth it. This trick can be used in quite a few missions, so keep an eye out for it.
  • Here's something else that might catch you off guard: some of your enemies are flagged as "immune to nonplayer". That means that your recruited gang members won't be able to damage them, ever! Not even the bail out of car trick described above will work in this situation. Only shots fired by CJ will hurt these enemies, and only experience will tell you whether or not an enemy has been flagged this way -- or you can always read the spoilers. Sometimes, it means that you will have to make the kill yourself, but read on to see ways to get around this...
  • Another reliable way to cause kills without dirtying your hands is drowning. Sometimes you can lure opponents into running into water. Other times, you can knock the vehicle they are driving into the water. You can even use the firetruck's water nozzle to knock them into the water. Application of this feature is limited, especially when compared to the bail out of the car trick. But keep an eye out for it -- you never know when the situation presents itself. The best thing about this trick is that it works even for those immune to nonplayer types.
  • One last trick you can use is what I call the "Trojan Car" (mostly referred to as the Exploding Car Trick in spoiler discussions). This requires some finesse on your part. You need a car that's so badly damaged that it's on the cusp of being set on fire. You then need to get your target close to a wall or other solid immobile object. Now comes the tricky part: You need to run your target over hard enough to knock them over, but not hard enough to kill them. At the same time, your car needs to hit the wall hard enough to start flaming. If you pull this off right, you'll have a flaming car sitting on top of your helpless target. Once that happens, step away and enjoy the fireworks. Kills this way don't count towards your stat (they count against the people wasted by others stat instead). Note that this won't work if you use weapons to cause your car to go on fire, because then the game will flag the explosion as being caused by you. So no shooting the last bullet that causes the fire! If you find that you've knocked down your target but your car does not catch on fire, you can always jack another vehicle and use it to ram into the damaged car. Or if there are enemies with guns nearby, "encourage" them to shoot at the car by hiding behind it -- since it's their shot that caused the fire, any kills from the resulting explosion won't be counted against you. Hopefully, that'll be enough to cause the fire. Like the drowning trick, this too works for immune to nonplayer enemies.
  • One special update to the Exploding Car Trick discussed above: thanks to Jasper Petrol's discovery, it is now easier than ever to implement the trick. Instead of the careful timing needed, you can simply park your car on top of your unfortunate victim, then use melee attacks until the car gets on fire -- jumping on top of the car and then stomping on it seems to be the quickest way to do so. Guess what? If the car goes on fire because of your melee attacks, any kills from the resulting explosion does not count against you! This is extremely useful if there are no walls nearby, or no other cars nearby to jack.
  • This trick was first thought up by Demarest, as far as I know, so credit goes to him. In many instances, the spray can or the fire extinguisher can help greatly reduce the amount of kills. How? Well, when you spray someone, they start coughing and are incapacitated for a moment. Also, they will back up a few steps IN THE DIRECTION THAT CJ IS FACING. This means that you can control the direction they back up. This is useful to, say, back them up into a body of water for drowning, or for you to run away while they are still stunned.
  • Jasper Petrol is the first person to discover this very nifty trick, so 100% of the credit goes to him. The basic idea is simple: if you toss a tear gas canister at a victim, and it hits him or her, it will damage him or her. If the victim's health is low enough, it will even kill him or her. The great thing about this is, kills made this way do not count against you! In practice, though, this is somewhat difficult to pull off. First, you need to damage your target enough (his or health needs to be in the red zone) Then, you need to do some precision throwing -- no easy task given San Andreas' game mechanics. If you miss, then the gas from the canister will most likely kill your target, and kills this way DO count against you! However, with practice, this trick will save you some kills. There is one big limitation to this trick, though: it does not work against immune-to-nonplayer types.
Good luck,

-- Balatro

Demarest
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#2

Posted 22 September 2006 - 08:12 PM

I'm currently developing Windshield. It's supposed to be a mod that takes the user interface of Thirst For Blood and adapts it to the more vast and flexible original San Andreas. Because SA has so much more going on than TFB did, I have many things to test for and was considering literally playing through SA with it to test it out. This would be an excellent challenge to do exactly that with.

I hope others choose to join in. The problem is that there's tons of ways one could cheat. Hell, I could take a 100% save right now and write a Darkpactor to blank that stat, making it look as if I completed the game without killing anybody.

Either way, I'm guessing two topics wasn't necessary wink.gif

balatro
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#3

Posted 22 September 2006 - 09:58 PM

Yeah, I realize it'll be very easy to cheat. That's why it's the honour system. If a person is really determined to cheat, I can't stop them. But then they miss out on the fun of the challenge. It's part of the reason why I made my 100% list so that we can keep track of individual missions, and see how people are doing them. So far, all those marked as 0 I have actually managed to pull off in my own game. I have only 1 kill -- the Los Santos gym. However, I have wasted a total of 3 people thanks to a turned-over car with two people in it exploding on the highway. I suppose that given the chain reaction, I'm lucky the tally attributed to me wasn't higher.

As for the two topic thing, I agree. I wanted to keep the intro post and the 100% track list separate, and I thought the only way to do that is make two separate threads. Unless there is a way to link to an individual post within the same thread? If yes, I'll do that, and a mod can shut down the other thread.

-- Balatro

Demarest
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#4

Posted 22 September 2006 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE (balatro @ Sep 22 2006, 17:58)
Unless there is a way to link to an individual post within the same thread? If yes, I'll do that, and a mod can shut down the other thread.

Sure is. Every post has a little icon towards the top next to the word Posted along with the date it was posted. Click on the word Posted and a box pops up. That box contains the direct URL to that post and is already highlighted so you only need to copy it and you're ready to use it however you see fit.

I understood WHY you posted 2. I just thought maybe it would be better to make sure others were on board before wasting your time.

Meanwhile, I was able to recover Windshield's development after the unfortunate upper local debacle. However, I'm crashing the game after the first cutscene in the mission Big Smoke. Preliminary tests aren't going so well. So my participation will probably be delayed.

HerrieM
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#5

Posted 23 September 2006 - 08:13 AM

Nice idea, i will certainly try this. I just had to do Vertical Bird and found out it is possible to do that mission without a kill to.
I'm gonna start with this challenge myself very soon, but i'm afraid it will cost me some money for anger management lessons. anuj_cop.gif

quartet1977
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#6

Posted 23 September 2006 - 11:20 PM

i'm in, too. i was just about to start another round anyway. this will make it challenging.

Demarest
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#7

Posted 24 September 2006 - 01:15 AM

I've just started and already, just the way it changes how you see things is incredible. For example, I'm actually afraid of gangs now! Just because in a commotion, they might get caught under the wheel of my car, etc. My game already has 1 arrest on it. One I could've avoid if human life weren't sanctified suddenly wink.gif Also, strategy is altered. By that I mean that my inventory has silenced pistol, sniper rifle, and spraycan ONLY. Tools of a surgeon wink.gif I highly recommend everybody keep a nice ration of spray handy. Consider it mace wink.gif A way to incapacitate them long enough to get away.

I'm also fathoming how to do certain missions with minimal kills. I've already reloaded, restarted Pimping more than a few times. ONCE, a while ago, I actually completed level 10 without having had to kill anybody. I'm debating how worth it it is to keep at it to try and hold out for another perfect set. Especially considering the code says it's a 50/50 toss up confused.gif

So far, I've completed Big Smoke, Ryder, 100 tags, Firefighter, and a few taxi dropoffs. No kills yet smile.gif Sucks too because I HAD more like 30 fares and I noticed a kill in my stats. One that was a couple saves deep confused.gif No idea where it came from. And to those whom it concerns, I'm using this run to test drive Windshield and may I say: Nice!

user posted image

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#8

Posted 24 September 2006 - 01:35 AM

i haven't gotten as far as demarest but i too am learning how odd it is to try to play this game without killing anyone. it totally alters perspective and strategy, and it will take a lot of adapting. i've done the burglary mission, half the tags, big smoke mission, and i have not picked up a gun yet. i know i'll need one eventually, but for now, staying unarmed is the only way to keep me from blasting on some fools. this is fun. a great idea. i did kill a ped by mistake, so i'm already one behind demarest. still, i'm more into this just to see what it's like to be a man of peace, as cj describes himself sometime in the game. as for the spray can, i totally agree. it gave me a good lead when running from the cops without messing with my kill stats.

HerrieM
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#9

Posted 24 September 2006 - 09:22 AM

I haven't started yet, but i've done this in GTA3 and Vice a while ago. I had to dramaticly change my driving style, but i haven't lost that style in SA so i'm not scared about alot of road accidents. This means i will have to stay out of freeways as much as possible.
As for pimping, just like Demarest says, i know it's possible without killing, but you have to be lucky. I think that with some help the ho can kill the agresive cosumers, but when they don't want to pay you might have to try something different. Mabey that bail out of the car, just before hitting them trick would help here.

Demarest
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#10

Posted 24 September 2006 - 09:37 AM

QUOTE (quartet1977 @ Sep 23 2006, 21:35)
i have not picked up a gun yet. i know i'll need one eventually, but for now, staying unarmed is the only way to keep me from blasting on some fools. this is fun. a great idea. i did kill a ped by mistake, so i'm already one behind demarest.

Reload wink.gif The only reason I've been grabbing guns is because my arsenal will be limited, so I figure the earlier I start getting them, the sooner the pickup can respawn and the longer I'll be set for without having to grab more.

QUOTE (HerrieM @ Sep 24 2006, 05:22)
This means i will have to stay out of freeways as much as possible.
As for pimping, just like Demarest says, i know it's possible without killing, but you have to be lucky. I think that with some help the ho can kill the agresive cosumers, but when they don't want to pay you might have to try something different. Mabey that bail out of the car, just before hitting them trick would help here.

I'll take this under advisement about pimping. As for the freeway, you and I are of opposite minds. I use them MORE now. No pedestrian traffic wink.gif

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#11

Posted 24 September 2006 - 10:53 AM

But when it comes to missions where killing is survival and completion of the mission, rules in this game would surely be broken tounge.gif

Novel idea icon14.gif I'm giving it a try myself just for the fun of it and see for myself how "peaceful" I can play San Andreas wink.gif

Plaka
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#12

Posted 24 September 2006 - 12:27 PM Edited by Plaka, 24 September 2006 - 12:58 PM.

I just tried this out and while collecting Tags, using the unlimited Spray Can provided for "Tagging Up The Turf" mission I accidentally ran over a ped but it wasn't recorded, he was dead and CJ said something like "Yeah I like to share as well" (money collected.) I didn't save the game so I don't know if it would have appeared later.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is as an example of a possible "hidden cheat." Granted that the "Honor System" is invoked here but in the above instance it would surely be a kill-unrecorded?

Hints/Tips
Burglarly Mission is available from the beginning of the game ... start at exactly 20:00 and complete the mission ($10'000) in one night - 1 attempt/passed, Reward = Infinite Sprint.

Don't use a light airplane to try and get the Sniper Rifle on the Hospital Roof suicidal.gif


@ Demarest This anti game should be right up your street - so to speak smile.gif
Also good-looking GUI you have created there.

Demarest
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#13

Posted 24 September 2006 - 04:45 PM

QUOTE (HerrieM @ Sep 24 2006, 05:22)
I think that with some help the ho can kill the agresive cosumers, but when they don't want to pay you might have to try something different. Mabey that bail out of the car, just before hitting them trick would help here.

I was excited to read this. But in game, it didn't work out that way. So I looked into the code and sure enough: Everybody involved in the Pimping mission is immune to nonplayers. Here's a pic I had taken to show her unloading on him for a minute straight after I softened him up, but to no avail

user posted image

So I had settled for the ONE kill I got... until I read your bail idea. Tried it out ingame and it didn't credit me! I'm probably going to try again blush.gif Otherwise I have Taxi, Firefighter, Big Smoke, Ryder, LS Courier, and Pimping done with 1 kill.

@Plaka: If the engine doesn't record it, that's hardly on you. Also, I didn't realize that Burglary was available from the beginning. I thought the Boxville's were unlocked after Home Invasion, but I was wrong. Don't know what you mean by anti game, but thank you for the compliment.

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#14

Posted 24 September 2006 - 05:41 PM

Shamelessly OFF-TOPIC


anti-Christ
anti-Semitism
Anti-Depressants


Anti is taken from the Greek word pronounced Ah-day - against, opposite of etc

In the context I used, was to say; Against the Game, Opposite of the Game, Contrary to the Game -principle.

Did you know:
More than 55'700 Greek words have been exported to the English/American language and are generally in daily use.

Source: A Greek Advert for Mythos Beer biggrin.gif

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#15

Posted 24 September 2006 - 06:19 PM

@demarest,
the hud in the pic you posted - which mod does this? do u have the link? Looks pretty cool cool.gif

Demarest
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#16

Posted 24 September 2006 - 06:41 PM

I REALLY appreciate your interest. It's called Windshield and it's not yet released. I'm using this quest to test drive it; put it through it's paces. Make sure everything works as it should including under circumstances I might not have considered while at the drawing board. It's going really well too. Haven't had to tweak anything since I've finally gotten underway. I don't know if I'll play through to the full 100% before releasing it. In the meantime, you can grab Thirst For Blood (click on image in my sig). While not the same thing and not for the exact same purposes, its AUI is the inspiration for Windshield.

Anyways, the bail trick for pimping doesn't work either. You aren't credited for a kill when you bail in the game becuase the engine considers it A car, not YOUR car. As such, the customers' immunity to nonplayers trumps the car. My first try, I was lined up, got great speed, bailed in time... only to watch him barely move an inch. Guess I'm stuck with my one kill as I no longer have the patience to hold out for a zero kill run, which I've only ever been lucky enough to land once ever. For those willing to try, you'll be happy to know that the first two levels are guaranteed problem free. So you'll only be facing eight coin flips instead of ten confused.gif

Special shout out to Ryder. I was able to trick him into doing all the dirty work in Cleaning Up The Hood, so now I'm that far will still only the one kill from Pimping cool.gif

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#17

Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:12 AM

Wow....I'm glad to see all the response! Looks like there is some interest in the challenge after all.

As for my own progress, I alluded to it in my earlier post. But here's more details:

I've finished all missions from Sweet up to and including Sweet's Girl. I've done Ryder's first mission (Home Invasion), and the Burglary mission for the infinite sprint. I've done Tags, Taxi, Paramedic, Firefighter, BMX, the Los Santos gym (learned new boxing moves), and the Los Santos 24-7 asset. Plus I've taken the time out (i.e. not needed for 100%) to max out my muscles, some weapon skills, and upping the driving and bike skill a bit in preparation for Vilgante. My cycling skill is maxed, though that was mostly from doing Tags and the 24-7 asset.

My current kill count sits at 3: 1 from the Los Santos gym (you have to waste the boxing instructor to learn the moves), and two from an unlucky explosion at the Montgomery intersection just after I had painstakingly finished 50 consecutive Taxi pickups without a kill... (sigh). After that incident, I experimented a bit, and came up with the second general hint/tip you see in the introductory post.

Now, to address some comments.

@Demarest: Your Winshield thing looks very good. Looking forward to when you release it. I was also thinking about the Pimping mission, and doing it using the bail out of the car trick. I'll let you know how it goes with me when I get around to it. And instead of the spray, I recommend the fire extinguisher -- you can easily pick those up from almost any restaurant all over San Andreas, whereas the spray can is really a Los Santos only thing.

@HerrieM: I've done something similar for both GTA3 and GTA VC. I can't remember my final kill count for GTA3, but I know it was below 650 kills...I think it was 623 or 628, if my memory serves me correctly. For Vice City, I am a little bit under 1500 kills, but I know that I can probably shave around 50 kills off that figure. How did you do in them? I also see no problems with driving on freeways: those nasty chain reaction crashes and explosions only tend to happy if you stay at one spot in the freeway for too long, so as long as you keep moving, you're fine.

@Plaka: Interesting. So if you run over a ped during "Tagging the Turf" mission, it doesn't count? If true, that certainly defeats the purpose of this challenge, so I'll have to play around with that and experiment a bit. Also, about the Burglary mission, I have not included it in my hint/tips because it's not needed for 100%, though I admit that the Infinite Sprint is pretty useful. However, in my game, I played it only after I had done the mission Home Invasion, and it did not increment my mission completed stat. I got $11520 in one run, so I got my infinite sprint and the $3000, yet for some reason, the game still thinks I haven't completed the mission. So now my missions attempted and my missions completed counter is off by one. Oh well.

-- Balatro

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#18

Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:12 AM Edited by Demarest, 25 September 2006 - 12:23 AM.

Well I have some good news (for me) and some bad news for everybody.

The bad news is that to learn new moves at the gym, it counts as killing your sparring partner. There's 3 guaranteed kills and now my 2nd kill. I didn't know, but really it's unavoidable.

The good news is that I've missions such as OG Loc and even Catalyst (!) and still only have 2 kills (1 Pimping, 1 LS Gym).

@balatro: You're crazy for doing Paramedic this early. Though I imagine the extra health will suit our cowardly approach better, eh? lol.gif No need to test the Pimping thing; it's official: If it shows up red, YOU have to kill him. I was lucky to get away with only 1, though I've done 0 once before (not for the competition). Also, if it were me, I'd have reloaded after the 2 kills. Tedious, yes, but that's also why I saved 4 times just during Taxi Driver. But then Windshield is making it a pleasure to just drive about. Thank you for the feedback on that BTW. I've been practicing Sweet's Girl a bit. I hope to walk away with 0 kills too. Don't be shy with sharing strategy wink.gif

Why do you guys keep mentioning mission attempts? I thought the competition was kills? Because I several times attempted missions I didn't complete. Pimping comes to mind. If the game screwed me by asking me to kill somebody, I'd just cancel the mission so that I could keep any progress I made with my driving skill, etc.

-MINIMAL KILL CATALYST "TUTORIAL"
Recruit gang members BEFORE the mission starts. The mission actually wipes the streets clean of gang members (which actually allowed me to "discover" that opcode). Start the misison; cutscne plays and you join Ryder in his Picador. Get out and hop into the parked Greenwood or any 4 seater you can get your hands on. Go to the meet where the first half is underway. STAY IN YOUR CAR. I got out one time and for some reason, a fight broke out between GSF present and those that I brought with me. Once you arrive, your homies will "drive-by" the Vagos on scene. Either on their own or as a reaction to a bullet hitting the car. I thought I saw both, so can't say for sure.

The Vago on the train appears to be immune to nonplayers. So what I did is park the car up against the train at his feet. Be sure to get out so that your homies can be on foot. I put a few in him to soften him up; your choice. Sometimes you have to to get his attention as he seems to be semi-intelligent (not taking the shot if he doesn't have a good one). Duck behind your car and provoke him to shoot it up while shooting at you. Once it catches fire, he will sometimes panic and jump off the other side. At which point, it's going to require more effort than is probably worth it to kill him without KILLING him wink.gif Usually though, he stays put and dies in the explosion, which wasn't your fault moto_whistle.gif You may lose family in the explosion, but not necessarily.

Next comes the fun part. The streets are virtually empty, so taking the families back with you to Grove Street can be tedious. There is a mini underground parking lot nearby that sometimes has cars there. At any rate, get suited up. There's a pop machine in nearby Jefferson Hotel. Armor in the viaduct just under Grove Street. Get in the Picador. Travel a bit of ways forward, get out, call the families to you. Drag them well ahead of the Picador and tell them to stay put. Repeat the process until you're back at the train, taking care to make sure you park the families there first "just in case". Now you're ready for a 5 on 4 rumble. But the Ballas are partially packing full autos, so it's a good idea to soften each of them up and let the other greens on scene finish each one off. Spectacular story? Perhaps. But on my save, I've passed Catalyst and still only have 2 kills! colgate.gif Enjoy.

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#19

Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:26 AM

QUOTE (Demarest @ Sep 24 2006, 20:12)
The bad news is that to learn new moves at the gym, it counts as killing your sparring partner. There's 3 guaranteed kills and now my 2nd kill. I didn't know, but really it's unavoidable.


Actually, that's only 2 guaranteed kills. I won't spoil it for you, but there's one gym where you don't have to kill the instructor. Discovered it quite by accident during my first runthrough of San Andreas.... smile.gif

About the Paramedic thing: I don't know, but I've never found it that hard. Even in GTA III, I was able to consistently finish that mission without killing anyone almost at will. The only reason why I do it in Montgomery is because there are less peds there (so less chance to run one over). And yes, that extra bit of health helps given that I try not to fight back anymore. biggrin.gif

And thanks for the update for the Pimping mission. Nice job on Catalyst. smile.gif I'll update mission thread as soon as I have the time. In the future, though, to prevent possible spoilers for other attempting the challenge, could you please post tutorials like this in the other thread? That way, if people really get stuck and wonder how you did it, they can check the other thread, while others who want to keep trying can keep plugging away at it. smile.gif

Cheers,

-- Balatro

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#20

Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:40 AM Edited by Demarest, 25 September 2006 - 04:57 AM.

Certainly no disrespect intended. In my defense, I DID voice my bewilderment to 2 threads up front wink.gif I'll look into that and keep my running tally in there if that's what it's for.

You've got my attention on the gym thing. Read: care to elaborate? wink.gif

[EDIT]
After a few hours, I was able to complete House Party without being credited for a single kill!! Those interested in how can check out the other related thread here.

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#21

Posted 25 September 2006 - 06:31 AM

@ balatro, i don't know what my body count was in GTA3 and Vice. It's a while ago and i haven't got the saves anymore.

As for the mission attemps v. missions completed. There are more missions that will never credit there completion. Burglar is one of them.

@ demarest, sorry to hear those tricks don't work in pimping. Guess i still have to try my luck for 0 kills.


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#22

Posted 25 September 2006 - 06:56 AM

This is an interesting concept. I'd probably find it too tedious to actually play an entire game that way unless I strung it out over quite a long time, but I find the mission strategy discussion pretty interesting.

QUOTE (Demarest @ Sep 24 2006, 20:40)
You've got my attention on the gym thing. Read: care to elaborate? wink.gif

Regarding the gym, I expect it is Cobra Marital Arts in San Fierro because in that gym there's no boxing ring and if you force the opponent to back up off the mat you earn the victory, sorta like sumo wrestling.

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#23

Posted 25 September 2006 - 02:32 PM Edited by Demarest, 25 September 2006 - 05:58 PM.

Just finished Just Business with +9 kills! If you're wondering why that's worth getting excited about, it's because 7 of the kills are by products of the action sequences during the mission. I patched Windshield to flash the screen purple whenever my body count goes up so I can get an idea of when/how/why it goes up. Both times the Packer hits a car and it explodes, you get +1 each. Then twice in the flood control, one of their cars blow up and each time, it has 2 occupants. Finally, when you shoot out the gate towards the end, Big Smoke runs one of them over, but you're credited.

However, you are NEVER credited for killing somebody by shooting them off of a bike. That's not just during this mission and even police on bikes won't count.

Finally, there were 2 "vonutary" kills. Only they're not so voluntary. One you "have to" do to avoid having to kill 8-10 others. The other, if you do not kill him, he WILL fail the mission for you. Details and strategies once again in the other thread (still not sure if that's the best idea, but it just might be as both grow).

@pdescobar: By that same token, do you fail it if you step out of bounds? I've never seen either happen myself.

[EDIT]
With a little bit of luring, a little bit of trickery, and a LOT of luck, I managed to complete Gray Imports with 0 kills smile.gif Just finished Doberman. Got 12 during that mission. Anybody manage to get it lower? I was surprised it was that low, but still.

So I've done all of Sweet's first missions, all of Ryder's, Big Smoke's, OG Loc's, and Crash's (in LS) as well as Doberman, Firefighter, Pimping, Taxi Driver, LS Courier, LS Gym, and 100 tags. I currently have 23 kills: 1 in Pimping, 1 in LS Gym, 9 on Just Business (7 forced), and 12 on Doberman. Better than I expected biggrin.gif

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#24

Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:16 PM

pdescobar hit the nail on the head with the gym thing. smile.gif

@demarest: I did not think you meant any disrespect at all. I'm sorry if I came across sounding like that.

Also, the reason why I keep track of missions attempted to missions passed ratio is because of the tiebreaker. In the event that there is a tie, missions attempted to missions passed is the next criteria used. Though I suppose it can be argued that if you keep you kill count low enough, then it's a moot point...

-- Balatro

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#25

Posted 26 September 2006 - 01:37 AM

QUOTE (Demarest)
However, you are NEVER credited for killing somebody by shooting them off of a bike. That's not just during this mission and even police on bikes won't count.

Interesting. I had seen that sniping cops off of their bikes does not add to your running respect total, but didn't think to check further.

QUOTE (Demarest)
@pdescobar: By that same token, do you fail it if you step out of bounds? I've never seen either happen myself.

Never bothered to try that, but you probably fail. Have to give that a shot next time I fire up the game.

QUOTE (Demarest)
Just finished Doberman. Got 12 during that mission. Anybody manage to get it lower? I was surprised it was that low, but still

That all depends how legitimate you consider obtaining bulletproof vehicles from missions. Although it's a bit of a hassle, you can get a BP Tampa from the mission Nines and AKs. While I haven't tested it, I suspect that by using recruits to do drive-bys from a BP vehicle you can probably get away with only 3 kills for Doberman; 4 if you must take out the last guy yourself.

===

QUOTE (balatro)
Also, the reason why I keep track of missions attempted to missions passed ratio is because of the tiebreaker. In the event that there is a tie, missions attempted to missions passed is the next criteria used. Though I suppose it can be argued that if you keep you kill count low enough, then it's a moot point...

I'd suggest taking that away as a tiebreaker. There is too much sloppiness in the code with regard to increasing the mission attempts; it is impossible to get a 100% completion ratio no matter what you do and some really odd things increment that counter. It certainly shouldn't be the *first* tiebreaker.

I also don't like safehouse visits as a tiebreaker. I understand the reasoning behind it, but SA is a buggy game, and it *will* crash on you. Encouraging people to not save often just seems like bad advice. I lost about 40 tags sprayed on a chain game turn because of trying to honor the same kind of restriction; had I been saving with my normal frequency, I'd have only had to redo about 10. In addition, it penalizes those whose schedules only allow them to only play a little bit at a time.

Better ideas for tiebreakers might be: fewest total wanted stars attained and lowest criminal rating (although you'd have to adjust the CR to remove the money component and probably specifically disallow button cheats).

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#26

Posted 26 September 2006 - 12:48 PM

QUOTE (pdescobar @ Sep 25 2006, 21:37)
QUOTE (Demarest)
Just finished Doberman. Got 12 during that mission. Anybody manage to get it lower? I was surprised it was that low, but still

That all depends how legitimate you consider obtaining bulletproof vehicles from missions. Although it's a bit of a hassle, you can get a BP Tampa from the mission Nines and AKs. While I haven't tested it, I suspect that by using recruits to do drive-bys from a BP vehicle you can probably get away with only 3 kills for Doberman; 4 if you must take out the last guy yourself.

Is legitimacy negotiable? If you don't cheat to effect it, I don't see how anybody could argue that it's illegitimate.

Always the bringer of the most fortunate unfortunate news, aren't you? tounge.gif I don't have any save that dates back to Nines And AKs. I tested your therory in TTSA and it works. Granted, TTSA is unfinished and therefore MIGHT be missing something that would alter this outcome, but I really don't see how. That and the fact that I've since my Pimping debacle figured out how to off those immune to nonplayer without racking up a kill, I've made the very difficult decision to start over cry.gif Which means I'll probably be spending at least all of today retracing my steps. I hope the missions where luck played a major role in my survival (Madd Dogg's Rhymes, Grey Imports) don't punish me too harshly for opting to do them over. But this will give others a chance to catch up biggrin.gif

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#27

Posted 26 September 2006 - 02:54 PM Edited by balatro, 26 September 2006 - 02:58 PM.

@pdescobar: That are good points you make about the tiebreakers. I'll think about it some more, but I'll probably be revising them based on your suggestion. Thanks for the comments.

@demarest: I'd say go with what you have now and don't bother restarting. While technically speaking not cheating, I personally consider using BP/EP/FP/whatever cars an exploit, so I'll not be using them in my own runthrough. However, to be fair, I did not say anything about them either (because I forgot about them), so I'll allow anyone who wants to use them to use them. Just let the rest of us know whether you are using "proof" vehicles or not, since I imagine strategies will be noticeably different with and without them.

As for the use of cheat codes, that's definitely not permitted, and it's an oversight on my part. I'll update the conditions in the first post as soon as I can.

-- Balatro

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#28

Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:12 PM Edited by Demarest, 27 September 2006 - 07:35 PM.

QUOTE (balatro @ Sep 26 2006, 10:54)
@demarest: I'd say go with what you have now and don't bother restarting.

WAY too late for that. I'm about where I was. Right now, I only have 4 kills, but haven't done Just Business yet. I'm TRYING to save it for as late as possible in case somebody develops a better technique. I'd really like for somebody to figure out a way to not have to shoot anybody. At the same time, I wanted to hold off on Doberman. I'm concerned that if I should happen to lose a territory that is attacked, I'll have to take it back (more kills) later to satisfy the respect requirement of Riot? Anybody know if this is true? Also, if a territory is under attack and you start a mission, does it hold off that attack or presume a victor? Also, should I not worry simply because the territories are reset the 2nd time around? I'm asking as I'm not actually sure. I've never liked or paid much attention to the gang warfare system. It's a nice way to boost weapons stats, but I don't like that you're required to do X amount before being able to finish the game. Which of course will be a problem for this competition.

As for exploits, that's exactly what they are: People taking advantage of the parameters of the system we're all functioning in. Loopholes that we have no way of knowing if they were intended or not. It would be wrong to even try and legislate if they're in or not just for that level of uncertainty. I mean, GTA3's -proof vehicles were hard as hell to ensnare and even harder to keep. VC was almost devoid of them. Yet SA is littered with them and efforts to keep them out of our hands are very slim. At any rate, it's not at all like cheating.

Why aren't there more posts here? I thought we had at least a few on board, eh?

[EDIT to vent]
I want to know who the sucker programmer was that made it so that half the time I try to get into Sweet's car after recruiting the homies in Los Sepulcros, it won't let me. Didn't they realize that getting in the required car for the mission is... required? sneaky2.gif

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#29

Posted 27 September 2006 - 11:58 PM

QUOTE (Demarest @ Sep 27 2006, 12:12)
At the same time, I wanted to hold off on Doberman. I'm concerned that if I should happen to lose a territory that is attacked, I'll have to take it back (more kills) later to satisfy the respect requirement of Riot? Anybody know if this is true?

I'm pretty sure that the respect requirements for missions are just making sure you have at least 1% so that you can recruit 2 guys, although I haven't tested to verify that the actual value returned by opcode 0956 is equal to the value of stat 64. Assuming that (a) it is that low and (b) running respect can't go negative, then spraying 20 tags is enough to satisfy the requirement, regardless of the territory situation.

QUOTE (continued...)
Also, if a territory is under attack and you start a mission, does it hold off that attack or presume a victor?

If you start any mission or save before entering that territory, it aborts the attack with no change to the territory ownership. Often on more standard playthroughs, I have hopped in a taxi to press R3 so I didn't have to deal with going across town to defend some territory when I was "busy". tounge2.gif

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#30

Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:50 AM

QUOTE (pdescobar @ Sep 27 2006, 19:58)
QUOTE (Demarest @ Sep 27 2006, 12:12)
At the same time, I wanted to hold off on Doberman. I'm concerned that if I should happen to lose a territory that is attacked, I'll have to take it back (more kills) later to satisfy the respect requirement of Riot? Anybody know if this is true?

I'm pretty sure that the respect requirements for missions are just making sure you have at least 1% so that you can recruit 2 guys, although I haven't tested to verify that the actual value returned by opcode 0956 is equal to the value of stat 64. Assuming that (a) it is that low and (b) running respect can't go negative, then spraying 20 tags is enough to satisfy the requirement, regardless of the territory situation.

Well I wasn't talking about Los Sepulcros. But that's my fault for saying respect and Riot when I meant territories controlled and Los Desperados. Ingame in previous runs, I was led to believe that you needed to have so many territories to have so much respect. Not just a raw territories requirement.

Passed Los Sepulcros with 0 kills. Researching that missions wasn't too challenging at all (hint: hit Kane with a sniper shot to soften him up enough wink.gif ). However actually playing it through was the most time consuming. I think I spent a half hour just on that mission and I'm not talking about research, failed runs included, etc cry.gif

Also was able to get Reuniting The Families down to 14. 8 of which are unavoidable. The amazing thing is that I only had to kill 4 people inside Jefferson. It's possible that somebody can get it lower than 14, but with the health I had remaining inside and the car's health afterwards, VERY doubtful wink.gif

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