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Melchior
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#211

Posted 05 December 2011 - 12:40 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, Dec 4 2011, 15:44)
You continue to advocate people to stop watching porn for the reason that it is degrading. In your view, it is degrading.

And all I want people to do is think about why I think it's degrading. It doesn't appeal to me and I don't watch it. If you enjoy it, I'm not telling you not to watch it, just to think about the issues surrounding it. Porn, as a moral issue, is no where near as important as the underlying cultural attitudes that manifest themselves in porn (and arguably, sexuality in general). Do you see where I'm coming from now? I'm not telling you, as an individual, to give up porn like it were cigarettes or red meat.

QUOTE
ou, a male feel that women are degraded. What about women who feel they aren't degraded? Are you saying they're wrong? You know better as a man?

Not all women are intellectuals, and the ones that are might not even bother thinking about it. You can't argue that I'm wrong because I don't have half the world's population agreeing with me. And either way, there will always be a difference of opinion. Who knows who is right. It's a moot point.

QUOTE
And again, it's not just me as an American who felt that thread was filled with racist undertone.

Okay, race relations are different in Britain for one reason: diversity is kind of new there. Fifty years ago Britain was almost completely... British (for lack of a better term), the influx of new cultures is relatively recent, so of course there's going to be some cultural animosity, though it's not strictly to do with skin colour, people from Poland have it just as bad as people from Pakistan. Where as America has had Africans and Chinese people since it's inception, so race-related animosity there is basically arbitrary bitterness.

QUOTE
You had another British person feeling as such also, one who is smarter than you, me and anyone else in this board.

sivispacem is more experienced and an expert in... something to do with policy advice and statistics, I was never too clear on that. That doesn't make him more credible when throwing out the R-word. There's a difference between feeling genuine hate for people of other races and being a little bit full of sh*t.


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#212

Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:40 AM Edited by sivispacem, 05 December 2011 - 01:37 PM.

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, Dec 5 2011, 01:40)
QUOTE
You had another British person feeling as such also, one who is smarter than you, me and anyone else in this board.

sivispacem is more experienced and an expert in... something to do with policy advice and statistics, I was never too clear on that. That doesn't make him more credible when throwing out the R-word. There's a difference between feeling genuine hate for people of other races and being a little bit full of sh*t.

To clarify, and sorry for the mild off-topic (I'll add something related to the subject at hand later) but I never categorically accused anyone of being racist. I accused people of saying things that could be interpreted as racist, and I accused people of chauvinism and bigotry, but never called anyone a racist directly- that was just implied by others.

In relation to pornography being degrading, objectifying or materialising- how about non-pornographic nude photography? Some of it can be physically attractive or sexually arousing, but if it's purpose is for art for arts sake rather than for sexual gratification, does it matter that some find it sexually arousing? I guess the point I'm making is, where does the boundary lie between what someone like Melchior would consider pornographic and therefore disgusting or harmful, and what is artistic expression? It seems like there are no "hard and fast" rules for defining it. I mean, it is nudity? Pornography has it, but so do many works of art from history, so it can't be that. A sense of domination, aggression or violence from one party to another? That's present in most pornography, but is equally present elsewhere in media and even in daily life. Designed for the purposes of sexual arousal? Well, that's probably one of the primary defining features, but concepts of "arousal" are subjective and I guarantee you that there is a significant quantity of art out there that's designed to invoke a sexual reaction. I mean, look at some of Helmut Newton's photography work for instance- it's not pornography, but bears all the principal hallmarks of it- including sexual contact.

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#213

Posted 05 December 2011 - 06:12 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, Dec 5 2011, 00:40)
QUOTE
ou, a male feel that women are degraded. What about women who feel they aren't degraded? Are you saying they're wrong? You know better as a man?

Not all women are intellectuals, and the ones that are might not even bother thinking about it. You can't argue that I'm wrong because I don't have half the world's population agreeing with me. And either way, there will always be a difference of opinion. Who knows who is right. It's a moot point.

Wait wait wait, I'm honestly confused about your point here. What does intellctually minded have to do with anything at all?
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be offended/not offended by something.

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#214

Posted 05 December 2011 - 07:15 PM

I, honestly, don't watch real porn. My opinion is that it's disgusting what men (and women) would do in front of a camera nude...

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#215

Posted 05 December 2011 - 08:03 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, Dec 4 2011, 03:18)
Are you going to walk into her house and take that finger out of her pussy and tell her to think about how she's watching degrading material? What the f*ck man, really..

I'm going to refrain from weighing in on this debate because frankly I could write a book on people's moral stances on porn (which frankly threads the line of being a conversation between a load of guys about what turns them on) but I will say this... that comment was f*cking hilarious! Bravo biggrin.gif

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#216

Posted 06 December 2011 - 04:58 AM

QUOTE (Tryst @ Tuesday, Dec 6 2011, 04:12)
QUOTE (Melchior @ Monday, Dec 5 2011, 00:40)
QUOTE
ou, a male feel that women are degraded. What about women who feel they aren't degraded? Are you saying they're wrong? You know better as a man?

Not all women are intellectuals, and the ones that are might not even bother thinking about it. You can't argue that I'm wrong because I don't have half the world's population agreeing with me. And either way, there will always be a difference of opinion. Who knows who is right. It's a moot point.

Wait wait wait, I'm honestly confused about your point here. What does intellctually minded have to do with anything at all?

Well if you don't have an intellectual mindset, you're more likely to take things for granted, and are less likely to pick up on the (not always overt) theme of conquest that's present in pornography, and you're also much less inclined to draw a connection between world issues and things that are apart of your daily life.

QUOTE
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be offended/not offended by something.

hmm, for what it's worth, "intellectual" and "intelligent" aren't interchangeable.

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#217

Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:21 PM

Or your just reading a bit too much into the whole porno conquest thing. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Equating porn to misogyny or some kind of vile entertainment is just as bad as equating Grand Theft Auto to a murder simulator.

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#218

Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:27 AM

QUOTE (Tryst @ Tuesday, Dec 6 2011, 15:21)
Equating porn to misogyny or some kind of vile entertainment is just as bad as equating Grand Theft Auto to a murder simulator.

icon14.gif

Exactly. Do you want GTA players like us to start thinking how we're playing a murder simulator?

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#219

Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:30 AM

QUOTE (Tryst @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 06:21)
Or your just reading a bit too much into the whole porno conquest thing. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I don't know, it's a pretty well established view, academically speaking. Maybe you just can't see it. Who's to say?

QUOTE
Equating porn to misogyny or some kind of vile entertainment is just as bad as equating Grand Theft Auto to a murder simulator.

I've said this like, five times already but porn is not the issue, it's a manifestation of other issues. As such, Grand Theft Auto isn't a good comparison.

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#220

Posted 07 December 2011 - 01:10 AM

Pretty well established accidemic view? Really now?
I'm gonna say this again, playboy is not the end all of all porn. The best porn is not of the perfect woman getting dped by a group of angry men.
The best stuff, both parties are into it and both parties look like something tangible (dare I say real?).
And yes, occasionally those women are bloody perfect and the men are bloody perfect, its hot. I don't want to watch 2 whales having sex, thats not hot. Its a pretty simple equasion really.

As far as symptoms of problems with society at large? How so, I would really like to see what you are trying to point out here.
I can turn on the tv and see a bunch of fat hairy guys sitting around drinking beer just as much as I can see a bunch of pretty women collecting shoes.

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#221

Posted 07 December 2011 - 05:05 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Tuesday, Dec 6 2011, 19:30)
QUOTE (Tryst @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 06:21)
Or your just reading a bit too much into the whole porno conquest thing. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I don't know, it's a pretty well established view, academically speaking. Maybe you just can't see it. Who's to say?

QUOTE
Equating porn to misogyny or some kind of vile entertainment is just as bad as equating Grand Theft Auto to a murder simulator.

I've said this like, five times already but porn is not the issue, it's a manifestation of other issues. As such, Grand Theft Auto isn't a good comparison.

Manifestation of what?

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#222

Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:03 AM

QUOTE (Tryst @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 11:10)
Pretty well established accidemic view? Really now?

Yes, as in the views are held by people other than me. There's actually a wealth of literature on the subject.

QUOTE
And yes, occasionally those women are bloody perfect and the men are bloody perfect, its hot. I don't want to watch 2 whales having sex, thats not hot.

And this a problem (at least, it is if you're a "whale"). Porn is a manifestation of this problem because it becomes apparent that "whales aren't hot" should you watch it. What aren't you getting?

If you really want to go into it, a hundred years when people didn't always have nutrients available, only rich women were fat, and men found that sexy, it shows that marrying her would be a good idea because she has wealth and status, now in the western world there's a surplus of food, we can all eat as much as we want, and cheap foods are very fatty. Now being skinny shows you eat expensive food and therefore, have status (if you want evidence of this first hand, go to a trendy shopping mall in a rich area, I guarantee you'll be able to count the fat chicks you see on one hand). As I said, porn doesn't cause this phenomenon or even necessarily reinforce it, it shows that it's there, and is therefore, disgusting in my eyes.

This isn't the only issue, there are others (such as reinforcing women's passive role in courtship), but this is one you mentioned specifically. Irving, if this doesn't answer your question, read the article I posted or search for some other literature.

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#223

Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:17 AM

Okay, and you honestly think that can be blamed even partly on porn specifically? Isn't it just pop culture and the media in general that teaches us to find skinny attractive nowadays?

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#224

Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:32 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 16:17)
Okay, and you honestly think that can be blamed even partly on porn specifically

Um, no?

QUOTE (me)
As I said, porn doesn't cause this phenomenon or even necessarily reinforce it, it shows that it's there, and is therefore, disgusting in my eyes.

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#225

Posted 07 December 2011 - 08:10 AM

You didnt fully answer my question. The media as a whole "shows that it's there". Does that make the media in general just as bad as porn or not?

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#226

Posted 07 December 2011 - 08:33 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 18:10)
You didnt fully answer my question. The media as a whole "shows that it's there". Does that make the media in general just as bad as porn or not?

Yes.

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#227

Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:08 PM

i dont get why porns bad. You are watching other people have sex yea, but in reality, about 99% of people will have sex one day, so it dont matter in the end. And sex is a good thing. Wow, nuns and priests say that sex is a sin. REALLY??? Then how is the world still around? Animals,reptiles, and people have sex.

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#228

Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:10 PM

QUOTE (ccrogers15 @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 13:08)
i dont get why porns bad. You are watching other people have sex yea, but in reality, about 99% of people will have sex one day, so it dont matter in the end. And sex is a good thing. Wow, nuns and priests say that sex is a sin. REALLY??? Then how is the world still around? Animals,reptiles, and people have sex.

No no no no no, rethink what you just wrote. Please. You don't get the point of this topic? Noone here is discussing wether sex is good or bad.

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#229

Posted 07 December 2011 - 05:06 PM Edited by Tryst, 07 December 2011 - 05:09 PM.

QUOTE (Melchior @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 06:03)
QUOTE (Tryst @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 11:10)
Pretty well established accidemic view? Really now?

Yes, as in the views are held by people other than me. There's actually a wealth of literature on the subject.

QUOTE
And yes, occasionally those women are bloody perfect and the men are bloody perfect, its hot. I don't want to watch 2 whales having sex, thats not hot.

And this a problem (at least, it is if you're a "whale"). Porn is a manifestation of this problem because it becomes apparent that "whales aren't hot" should you watch it. What aren't you getting?

If you really want to go into it, a hundred years when people didn't always have nutrients available, only rich women were fat, and men found that sexy, it shows that marrying her would be a good idea because she has wealth and status, now in the western world there's a surplus of food, we can all eat as much as we want, and cheap foods are very fatty. Now being skinny shows you eat expensive food and therefore, have status (if you want evidence of this first hand, go to a trendy shopping mall in a rich area, I guarantee you'll be able to count the fat chicks you see on one hand). As I said, porn doesn't cause this phenomenon or even necessarily reinforce it, it shows that it's there, and is therefore, disgusting in my eyes.

This isn't the only issue, there are others (such as reinforcing women's passive role in courtship), but this is one you mentioned specifically. Irving, if this doesn't answer your question, read the article I posted or search for some other literature.

There is plenty of lititure on pegan witch craft too you know. Just because a few people wrote books doesn't mean they are right.

I for the most part only date average girls. Extremes do not denote status, they denote improper health and eating habbits.
A fat person, generally not always, looks like they just ate a baby. And a ultra skiny person needs a god damn sammich (I need a sammich too, but I already realize I eat really poorly)
Do me a favor, go to that mall you are talking about, close you're eyes and count in your head how many fat people and how many skinny people (I say people I mean men too) you think are there. Now open your'e eyes and count how many you actually see.
I'm willing to bet you are over counting by a far number on each scale.

You bring up class, well I've known both ultra skinny and ultra fat poor people as well as moderatly wealthy people, so ummmm this class thing? yeah?

I don't want to watch porn of some one who doesn't take care of them selves, I want a healthy looking person. And I most certainly don't watch porn to f*cking mary the woman, though any porn stars out there call me we can talk.

You seem to be only interested in status, wich is far more disgusting to me than some one who's interested in only looks.

And I've already told you to watch more porn, I don't know how many more ways to say this, but there are just as many dominate women in porn as there are men. Hell, in real life I've met more dominate women than men.
You seem to be confusing today's world for 1891 where women were presented as lesser class.

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#230

Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 03:33)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 18:10)
You didnt fully answer my question. The media as a whole "shows that it's there". Does that make the media in general just as bad as porn or not?

Yes.

Then why are YOu railing against porn specifically?

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#231

Posted 09 December 2011 - 01:44 AM

QUOTE (Tryst @ Thursday, Dec 8 2011, 03:06)
There is plenty of lititure on pegan witch craft too you know. Just because a few people wrote books doesn't mean they are right.

I never said that makes me right, don't put words in my mouth.

QUOTE
Extremes do not denote status, they denote improper health and eating habbits.

If the standards were realistic (ie, if being skinny was healthy and achievable) there'd be no problem. Are you really trying to argue that skinny isn't presented to us as ideal because you don't actively date skinny women? I'm sure a lot of those average women would like to be skinny. Thin is presented as ideal in the media and in porn, most guys aren't actually attracted to really skinny women but you wouldn't know that from watching TV.

QUOTE
You bring up class, well I've known both ultra skinny and ultra fat poor people as well as moderatly wealthy people, so ummmm this class thing? yeah?

It's an expectation, people don't always manage to conform to it. Again, if being skinny was easy there would be no problem at all.

8:30


As you can see from that, it's obviously a class thing because it differs from country to country based on how much resources they have. A country with a lot idealises thinness, and a country with very little idealises chubbiness.


QUOTE
You seem to be only interested in status, wich is far more disgusting to me than some one who's interested in only looks.

What?

QUOTE
And I've already told you to watch more porn, I don't know how many more ways to say this, but there are just as many dominate women in porn as there are men.

Take a look at that porn and tell me who's enjoyment is considered secondary. The woman, yeah?

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Dec 8 2011, 04:01)
QUOTE (Melchior @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 03:33)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 18:10)
You didnt fully answer my question. The media as a whole "shows that it's there". Does that make the media in general just as bad as porn or not?

Yes.

Then why are YOu railing against porn specifically?

Because this is a topic about pornography? If this were a topic called "objectification of women" or "women's passive role in courtship" porn would get less attention than the rest of the media.

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#232

Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:55 PM

QUOTE (Tryst @ Wednesday, Dec 7 2011, 02:10)
And yes, occasionally those women are bloody perfect and the men are bloody perfect, its hot. I don't want to watch 2 whales having sex, thats not hot. Its a pretty simple equasion really.

So you are unfamiliar with the fact that BBW porn (Big Beautiful Woman) is a highly popular genre. wink.gif
Unlike fashion, women in porn come in all sort of shapes, sizes and colors.
Porn is way more democratic than any mainstream media. icon14.gif

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#233

Posted 15 December 2011 - 01:15 AM

Most people who like it have some sort of fetishism or they like the variety, any number of things ... Women could be nymphos who like it as much as guys, or there's the erotic segment, etc. I've met a lot of friends who share a fondness for sm**

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#234

Posted 16 December 2011 - 02:38 PM

My view on porn? I understand getting all masturbated up for videos like lesbians or fingering but as for videos like a guy on girl...

...don't you feel so odd watching another guy's dick? That's like a really turn off for me. I do watch lesbians videos, Charlie Laine I'm so in love with you! But that's because it actually turns me on.

Seriously, you're watching another guy's dick doing it. Doesn't that bother you?

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#235

Posted 16 December 2011 - 04:35 PM

You're saying this as here are only heterosrxual people. Ever heard of Bi and Homo sexual orientated people.

Tell me, if a man performed a sexual act on a woman in a public place or in a party, would you cringe away or puke? If yes, then you probably have mental problems (well unless you are gay and very one at that).

POVs are favourite genre for some people, it's 50/50 for me and it is rarely having women as the main actor.

I would explain a lot more, but then you could simply look at my nickname to grasp what is my favourite porn genre.

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#236

Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE (mrpain @ Friday, Dec 16 2011, 14:38)

Seriously, you're watching another guy's dick doing it. Doesn't that bother you?

moto_whistle.gif no

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#237

Posted 16 December 2011 - 08:32 PM

QUOTE (mrpain @ Friday, Dec 16 2011, 14:38)

Seriously, you're watching a guy's dick penetrating vaginas. Doesn't that bother you?


Fixed for CTW.

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#238

Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:45 PM

I'm not homosexual but something about tranny's turns me on. Not butch looking tranny's but ones that you couldn't tell that it's a guy just by looking at them. I mean I wouldn't want to booty do them but i just have a strange fascination with them.

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#239

Posted 16 December 2011 - 10:13 PM

I don't think that's exactly relevant to the actual discussion, but, er thanks for that. I guess?

As for the idea of seeing another guy acting in porn: if that's not what you're there for (let's assume you are there to see women engage in sex for simplicity's sake), then it just doesn't really register. At least that's the case for me. I don't feel disgusted by it, simply uninterested. I'd say if you're actually disgusted at it you've got some self-searching to do.

QUOTE
Tell me, if a man performed a sexual act on a woman in a public place or in a party, would you cringe away or puke? If yes, then you probably have mental problems (well unless you are gay and very one at that).


Most people aren't fans of gratuitous public displays of affection. Parties are a little different obviously, at least at my age, but even that still has an ambiguous position. But some everyday public place? Yeah that'd be amazingly awkward for most people.

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#240

Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:06 AM

QUOTE (Triple Penetration @ Friday, Dec 16 2011, 20:32)
QUOTE (mrpain @ Friday, Dec 16 2011, 14:38)

Seriously, you're watching a guy's dick penetrating another mans ass. Doesn't that bother you?


Fixed for CTW.

There we go.




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