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leaflinks
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#181

Posted 29 November 2011 - 03:03 PM

Robert Jenson makes an effort to understand an industry that exploites people. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors, how do you everybody is okay with their sexual fantasies. You can't say that for sure.

It is a male dominated world, and a male dominated society, and especially in the western world concerning entertainment it is pretty much created by men for a male audience.


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#182

Posted 30 November 2011 - 06:23 AM

So what? The food TV industry is centered around women by women, so that's bad?

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#183

Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:30 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Nov 30 2011, 16:23)
So what? The food TV industry is centered around women by women, so that's bad?

Bit of a flimsy parallel, isn't it? Women in porn are treated like instruments - it's never portrayed as a celebratory act, it usually depicts a man "giving it" to a woman like a jack-hammer while she lies back and... yeah you get what I mean.

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#184

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (leaflinks @ Tuesday, Nov 29 2011, 16:03)
male dominated world...especially in the western world

Spoken like someone whose never been to an Arab, African, Asian or Central/Southern American country in his life. I'd argue that everywhere outside of the West is a predominantly male-dominated world; we've got it quite good. That's not to say we have parity between male and female, but it's better than it is just about anywhere else. Anyway, how can individuals engaging in consenting sexual acts, regardless of their nature, be exploitation? We have free will, do we not? Doesn't it cease to become exploitation when someone consents to something?

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#185

Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:05 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Wednesday, Nov 30 2011, 02:30)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Nov 30 2011, 16:23)
So what? The food TV industry is centered around women by women, so that's bad?

Bit of a flimsy parallel, isn't it? Women in porn are treated like instruments - it's never portrayed as a celebratory act, it usually depicts a man "giving it" to a woman like a jack-hammer while she lies back and... yeah you get what I mean.

But it's not. You can't make that argument about a western country, you just can't.

And again, so f*cking what? The woman consents to it. Porn is not just two people having sex for 30 minutes. It's an elaborate system which is shot maybe 20 seconds at a time. People in the industry see themselves as actors, plain and simple. You guys sound like benevolent crusaders of the early 19th century.

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#186

Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Nov 30 2011, 21:05)
But it's not. You can't make that argument about a western country, you just can't.

I was talking about women's depiction in pornography as sex instruments, which is disgusting. I didn't comment on how they're treated in society.

QUOTE
And again, so f*cking what? The woman consents to it. Porn is not just two people having sex for 30 minutes. It's an elaborate system which is shot maybe 20 seconds at a time. People in the industry see themselves as actors, plain and simple. You guys sound like benevolent crusaders of the early 19th century.

You seem to think we're having a completely different discussion. I wasn't talking about the actors I'm talking about women's depiction in pornography and how I find it offensive.

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#187

Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:56 PM

Yeah, the argument about porn being degrading to women isn't just talking about this woman in this film, it's about the image it creates for the viewer about what the role of women in general is, both inside and outside of sexual activity.

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#188

Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:16 PM

But given that issues of offence are entirely subjective, shouldn't that immediately argue for the legalisation of the viewer-ship of pornography given that there are bound to be people who aren't offended by the implied sexism within porn, or simply do not view it as subjugation?

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#189

Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:30 PM

But you still aren't getting it. Even if it is truly degrading, these women act in it themselves. They know damn well how they are being depicted.

And regardless, does that mean porn should be censored?

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#190

Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:48 PM

Well...

QUOTE
But you still aren't getting it. Even if it is truly degrading, these women act in it themselves. They know damn well how they are being depicted.


@Irviding - I think you are the one whos not getting it. Robinski already clearly addressed the point you just made:
QUOTE
Yeah, the argument about porn being degrading to women isn't just talking about this woman in this film, it's about the image it creates for the viewer about what the role of women in general is, both inside and outside of sexual activity.


Its not about whether its degrading to the actors or what their attitude towards this sort of stuff is (they probably dont even care as long as they get paid), the problem is with the image which is being projected onto all women.

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#191

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:25 PM

QUOTE (3niX @ Wednesday, Nov 30 2011, 14:48)
Well...

QUOTE
But you still aren't getting it. Even if it is truly degrading, these women act in it themselves. They know damn well how they are being depicted.


@Irviding - I think you are the one whos not getting it. Robinski already clearly addressed the point you just made:
QUOTE
Yeah, the argument about porn being degrading to women isn't just talking about this woman in this film, it's about the image it creates for the viewer about what the role of women in general is, both inside and outside of sexual activity.


Its not about whether its degrading to the actors or what their attitude towards this sort of stuff is (they probably dont even care as long as they get paid), the problem is with the image which is being projected onto all women.

So the women in the film don't count? Their opinions are null and void?

What about women who think porn is fine? Their opinions are also void, no?

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#192

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:30 PM

Well...

Gosh, you still dont get it!

We are not arguing over the women in the film but rather all the women in the world... would you like to be projected as something youre not?

Its sort of like stereotyping (though not exactly). Its just as bad as saying that all 'ragheads' are sheep f*ckers.

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#193

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:36 PM

QUOTE (3niX @ Wednesday, Nov 30 2011, 15:30)
Well...

Gosh, you still dont get it!

We are not arguing over the women in the film but rather all the women in the world... would you like to be projected as something youre not?

Its sort of like stereotyping (though not exactly). Its just as bad as saying that all 'ragheads' are sheep f*ckers.

I'm not the one missing the point here. I said:

QUOTE (Me)

So the women in the film don't count? Their opinions are null and void?

What about (other, as in not in the pornos) women who think porn is fine? Their opinions are also void, no?


Plenty of girls I know watch porn. Plenty of them like being submissive (infact most of them do, sex is a male dominant phenomenon) just like women in pornos, though not to the extent of the "plots" of these pornos and such, you get the point. Why are their opinions void? Why are the opinions of the porn actresses, who are infact women (I sure as hell hope...) void? Why is it, that in YOUR view, only the women who think it is objectifying count?

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#194

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:39 PM

I still don't think you're seeing where we're coming from man. Take this analogy: say there was a genre of film, centred around gay people (I'm not talking porn here, just general documentary) and they all came off as ridiculously flamboyant, camp, talking with lisps and being promiscuous. The guys who are in the films aren't acting, that's who they are, and there is a number of the gay community who share those views. Would you still say that the widespread consumption of these films isn't harmful in terms of the views that general society holds towards the gay community as a whole?

You can substitute any group and their negative expectations/stereotypes that you wish.

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#195

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

Well...

Yes, I already saw that... and it makes absolutely no sense to include only those who think its fine when talking about an image which is projected onto ALL women.

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#196

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:54 PM

Pornography's a financial industry, no less; no "art". Banning it will only be as successful as censorship, it won't cull the trade. Like the tobacco, alcohol, prostitution et al. industries, it's down to economic freedom that permits them to exist. Restrict the freedoms on finance and money, and a lot of the social problems even the "advanced" Western democracies cannot subdue, will slowly fade away.

To anyone that says it's a matter of choice, great, you have the better end of the stick. On the flip side, there still remains the dirty tricks to supply your demand. I dare anyone to access the deeper web, and see nine times out of ten what these industries really serve.

Then come back, look me in the eye, and tell me money does humans justice.

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#197

Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:01 PM Edited by Irviding, 30 November 2011 - 11:04 PM.

Look, 3nix, I'm sorry but you have totally misread every single one of my posts so far. Please reread them.

As for the gays, again, as I said, there are more women who are ok with porn out there than there are flamboyant, ridiculous, in your face reality TV gays. It's common sense. How many women do you know? Ask them about porn. Many of them will tell you they watch it (if you're close enough with them). Objectifying women is bullsh*t. That's how sex is. Sex is a male dominant activity as I said earlier. The male enters the woman. The woman doesn't enter the man.

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#198

Posted 01 December 2011 - 02:01 AM

QUOTE (Stefche @ Thursday, Dec 1 2011, 00:16)
But given that issues of offence are entirely subjective, shouldn't that immediately argue for the legalisation of the viewer-ship of pornography given that there are bound to be people who aren't offended by the implied sexism within porn, or simply do not view it as subjugation?

Were any of us saying it should be banned?

QUOTE (Irviding @ Thursday, Dec 1 2011, 09:01)
Many of them will tell you they watch it

And we're saying it doesn't matter. Most people don't have the time, focus or intellectual capacity to turn their fap material into an ethical issue. The fact that half the world's population hasn't caught on to the disgusting aspects of it doesn't make porn acceptable; "people listen to Coldplay and voted for the Nazis".

QUOTE
Objectifying women is bullsh*t. That's how sex is

What?

Objectify - verb: Degrade to the status of a mere object.


QUOTE
Sex is a male dominant activity as I said earlier. The male enters the woman. The woman doesn't enter the man.

Pornography depicts the woman's enjoyment as secondary, and it depicts them always laying back taking a pounding. It's err, not really like that.

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#199

Posted 01 December 2011 - 02:28 AM

Porn always shows a woman laying back taking it? I take it you don't watch much porn if thats all you've ever seen.
I've seen more porn with agressive women than agressive males.
I don't think I'd be very interested in a porno where the woman wasn't at least pertending to like it.

As far as objectifying women, what about the males? The ginormous penises, that aren't representitive of normal penile size, the ripped abs and heavy muscles?
Sure there are normal guys in porn too, but there are normal women too, expecially in the good porn.

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#200

Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:27 PM

Well...

QUOTE
It's common sense.

a) Actually, its not...
b) Using common sense as an argument in a debate is rather poor.

QUOTE
Sex is a male dominant activity as I said earlier. The male enters the woman. The woman doesn't enter the man.

Ones role might be dominant... but sex itself isnt male dominant.
Also, Im sure we could find exceptions on that second part. wink.gif


Im pretty sure I havent misread your posts... the issue seems to be in that you dont exactly understand what problem were presenting to you.

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#201

Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:03 AM

I'm sorry but "objectifying women"? wow, I know girls that would read that and roll thier eyes.

First of all the women in the film have consented to it, and they are being paid.

Secondly, it depends what movie your talking about. Women in society are equal to men, at least according to laws that have come into place. Where I'm from women have the vote, are paid as much, are respected etc.

Thirdly, the porn industry is mainly male dominated. Why? Because men react more heavily to visual arousal, they spend more time watching it. Some men have sexual fantasies where the women are merely objects. Not me, but you can imagine that, right?

Fourthington, men being seen as objects is probably a female fantasy in some cases, mere penises, well I'll be there are porn movies where women are in control and the men are just tied up, waiting for it. It is equality and that is how it is implemented in the porn industry.

Fifthwise, I don't know how many intelligent men, or men in any case use pornogrpahy as a way to judge a woman's role in society. I might see a man f*ck a girl in the ass and call her a bitch in a movie, but thats becuase it was directed, produced and funded by men for men. I'm sure there is more sophisticated and less demeaning pornography than that. Sex magazines for example, back in the seventies and eighties were tasteful, a woman showed a bit of cleavage or arse crack maybe. Is it tasteful? Sure. Does it say "women are merely objects used for our pleasure"? Hell no.

It comes down to interpretation. If you think there is something dirty and wrong with the human body, and women showing their genitals is demeaning then thats you being silly. The human body is there, it's judge seen in a light to captivate the eyes of men. If you are saying porn in which the woman is drinking semen and is being walked around on a leash like a dog then thats what you see. But the film in question is made becuase some men like it, the reason it may be arousing is becuase he would never treat a woman like this in real life. If you care so much about the treatment of women would you really tell the women in the films that enjoy it, and find it sexually arousing to be taken advantage of and treated like that that she shouldn't do it?

I think that "objectifying women" thing is a hipsterish thing to say. It takes no real understanding of the industry or women to actually believe it. I heard one woman say "I like being degraded" before. Whether or not she was thats for her to say. Objectifying women has been done before, but pornography is based upon the idea that nothing is taboo, and if it is it is sexy and should be displayed. If you find it offensive then maybe you should stay away from such things that would make you feel like that. For instance I felt sick watching jackass, when a bunch of immature dudes were whipping themselves in the dick or something along those lines.

Robinski I'm not sure about your anology about homosexuals. For instance your talking about a general film. Is it made intentionally to lambast gays or give an interpretation of what they're like? If the characters are written as having lisps, making passes at straight men and acting like self obssessed drama queens I guess most intelligent people would laugh in the knowledge the gays in the film are acting as some homophobes perceive them, it could be seen as satire and clever and witty.

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#202

Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:02 AM

QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Saturday, Dec 3 2011, 10:03)
I'm sorry but "objectifying women"? wow, I know girls that would read that and roll thier eyes.

Yeah, it's not like a woman's self worth is ever tied to her looks, to the point they might endanger themselves to conform to what society expects. Oh wait, that happens every day.

QUOTE
I might see a man f*ck a girl in the ass and call her a bitch in a movie, but thats becuase it was directed, produced and funded by men for men.

I think the real question is, why is that a turn on in the first place?

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#203

Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:33 AM

Same reason hentai, shemales, big tits, bdsm(which from every one I've known into it are mostly women), lesbians, showers, doggy style, missonary style, reverse cowgirl, blow jobs, masturbation(with your choice of finger, fists, dildoes, vegitables, and spiked balls on strings), role play, spanking, gangbangs, dp, tp, happy ending massasges, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.

Different strokes for different folks. Sex is, generally speaking consentual, when a girl wants me to call her a bitch and slap her ass and call her giant whores in bed then I'm prolly gonna do it. There's no reason for porn to pretend that these turn ons don't exist when they don't hurt any one.

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#204

Posted 03 December 2011 - 05:38 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Friday, Dec 2 2011, 21:02)
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Saturday, Dec 3 2011, 10:03)
I'm sorry but "objectifying women"? wow, I know girls that would read that and roll thier eyes.

Yeah, it's not like a woman's self worth is ever tied to her looks, to the point they might endanger themselves to conform to what society expects. Oh wait, that happens every day.

QUOTE
I might see a man f*ck a girl in the ass and call her a bitch in a movie, but thats becuase it was directed, produced and funded by men for men.

I think the real question is, why is that a turn on in the first place?

Why is that your business if that's a turn on for people? Why is it your business if people enjoy porn? Plenty of women do too. You are being absolutely ridiculous to come in here and think porn is objectifying to women and therefore shouldn't exist. As mentioned (you failed to counter) there are types of porn out there for everyone. You can find porn of men tied up and f*cked, you can find men calling the girl mommy, etc. The fact that you assume porn in general shows girls being pounded by the man just goes to show your ignorance on the matter. Have you even seen it before?

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#205

Posted 03 December 2011 - 06:04 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Saturday, Dec 3 2011, 02:02)
QUOTE (Vercetti27 @ Saturday, Dec 3 2011, 10:03)
I'm sorry but "objectifying women"? wow, I know girls that would read that and roll thier eyes.

Yeah, it's not like a woman's self worth is ever tied to her looks, to the point they might endanger themselves to conform to what society expects. Oh wait, that happens every day.

QUOTE
I might see a man f*ck a girl in the ass and call her a bitch in a movie, but thats becuase it was directed, produced and funded by men for men.

I think the real question is, why is that a turn on in the first place?

so your saying porn is morally wrong becuase it might enforce negative attitudes to how women should look? well there we go, the chances are men find thinner, tanned and young women more attractive, thats why they're in porn. Same way the men in those films are usually ripped and have massive cocks, teenage boys want to be like them. I don't know if you actually want porn to be banned becuase of this but lots of tv enforces negative attitudes to the way women look and feel. America's next top model, XFactor, fashion programmes, sh*t like that. It's in society.

Why is that a turn on in the first place? Who knows, why is it an issue what people find a turn on?

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#206

Posted 03 December 2011 - 06:38 PM Edited by Toup, 03 December 2011 - 06:59 PM.

QUOTE (kmlwin.1996 @ Wednesday, May 11 2011, 16:15)
Porn is sometimes good to us. It can help the reproduction system. If you don't know any thing about porn, how will you have sex with your girl? (Sorry that if I am rude.) So knowing the basics of porn can help in enjoyment of the sex with your wife or girl.

Oh my. So, basicly, he's saying that animals and people who don't watch porn are going to fail at the first attempt of having sex?

Tsk tsk, porn is a thing I don't usually post/talk about, but I'm going to try and give my honest opinion here, wich probably will not make any sense at all.

We are not all the same, it all depends on the person's personality and way of thinking, some may be more sensible than others, but it will not affect sexual lives or make people crazy perverts. Would you treat the person you fall inlove with like a dog? Do anal and force your partner to practice oral sex your first time? If you would you might have a problem. I know people who watch porn regularly; they aren't sick bastards, they are even one of the most respectful people that I know for women. So yeah as you can see...

Couple years ago, in college, we had a S.E. teacher come to our class, she then asked how many of us watched porn. 20/20 rase their hand, I wasn't really impressed to be honest, some had still trouble admiting it though. Now compare this class with billions of people all around the world; I'd be quite impressed if a person told me they had NEVER watched porn in their lives.

Hope I made my point clear, my English doesn't help of course.

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#207

Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:47 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, Dec 3 2011, 15:38)
Why is it your business if people enjoy porn? Plenty of women do too.

Well, this is a topic called "pornography: my views, I'd love to hear yours" and it's in a forum called "debates and discussion". I don't watch porn for all the aforementioned reasons, this seems like as good a place as any to tell people about it. dozingoff.gif

QUOTE
You are being absolutely ridiculous to come in here and think porn is objectifying to women and therefore shouldn't exist.

whoa, whoa, whoa. You are taking a lot of liberties with what I said, and stretching it into something very black and white. Maybe in a society where people's self worth isn't tied to their looks, where there's total gender equality and sexual freedom, there would be nothing objectionable about porn, but as it stands I find porn disgusting and offensive. I'm not telling you to stop watching it, I just want people to think about these issues - issues that don't normally come up in peoples' day to day lives, and this is certainly the place to do it.

QUOTE
You can find porn of men tied up and f*cked, you can find men calling the girl mommy, etc.

Well that just sounds like it's degrading to the man. Why is that any better?

QUOTE (Vercetti27)
so your saying porn is morally wrong becuase it might enforce negative attitudes to how women should look?

Not at all, I'm saying those attitudes are morally wrong and porn is a manifestation of them. Objectification (as in, only focusing on someone's physical appearance) is wrong because almost nobody feels they fit into the criteria for what's considered attractive, and it causes unfathomable emotional pain, for men or women, though it's women who are most often judged on their physical appearance, though that's as much their own fault as it is men's, it's really got nothing to do with sexism.

QUOTE
Who knows, why is it an issue what people find a turn on?

Good point, I don't know. I kind of think humiliation shouldn't be sexy. This article on the subject was posted a few pages back and is very interesting, though I don't agree with it 100%.

QUOTE
I don't know if you actually want porn to be banned becuase of this but lots of tv enforces negative attitudes to the way women look and feel. America's next top model, XFactor, fashion programmes, sh*t like that. It's in society.

Didn't I already say I thought porn was a symptom, not the disease, so to speak? That may have been in another argument. Anyway, yeah, all that sh*t is just as bad, I wish it didn't exist. Do I want any of it banned? No, people can do whatever they want, if people get sucked into it that's their own fault, all I want is for people to think about it.

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#208

Posted 04 December 2011 - 03:18 AM

I mean your business as in, why is it your pregorative to stop people from enjoying such materials. You can cast your judgement on them all you want.

I am a man and I don't find that degrading to men. I find that to be someone enjoying a porno (albeit a weird way of enjoying it IMO), and that's their thing and not my business.

Why are you so ridiculous? Why do you find a form of entertainment that has existed for hundreds of years (probably thousands) to be "disgusting and offensive". You are like one of those people who find racist jokes horrible. For example, a black friend and I always joke around.. he calls me a drunken mick, I call him a gangbanger. When he has nice clothes, I ask where he stole them from. The two of us have a riot. But if some random white person walked by and saw me say that, they would tell me how horrible I am, even though the black person isn't offended. Or even someone might tell him he's horrible and offensive and wrong for jokingly calling me a drunken mick who beats my girlfriend, when I am not at all offended. That is what you are. You are that annoying person who can't mind his/her own business. Plenty of women enjoy porn. I have dated plenty who watch porn and watched it with me. Albeit less, plenty of men enjoy female domination porn which shows the man being "degraded". So f*cking what? Why is that your problem? Why do you care if the woman in the porno has no problem with it? Why do you care if a woman enjoys to sit there and finger herself to another woman being thrown down and pounded in the ass? Are you going to walk into her house and take that finger out of her pussy and tell her to think about how she's watching degrading material? What the f*ck man, really..

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#209

Posted 04 December 2011 - 04:23 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, Dec 4 2011, 13:18)
Are you going to walk into her house and take that finger out of her pussy and tell her to think about how she's watching degrading material? What the f*ck man, really..

What are you even babbling about? It's quite a stretch from talking about how I don't like porn in a topic that asks for our different views on pornography to... walking into a woman's house and taking her finger out of her pussy, is it not? I think degradation is gross, and I think it's appeal speaks to a number of issues in our society, not limited to those relating to gender.

QUOTE
I mean your business as in, why is it your pregorative to stop people from enjoying such materials.

Who have I actively stopped from enjoying porn? Why are you so angry? You may be a tad too passionate about your fap material.

Not being rude, but you have a tendency to oversimplify things and make very complex sociological issues clear-cut and black and white. ie, I don't like porn for a whole host of reasons, so I must be in favour of BANNING IT and pointing cameras at every teenager's bed so they don't fap to their history teacher and objectify her. Or, people are discussing immigration and the concept of national identity, so it must be RACISM as you understand it as an American teenager.

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#210

Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:44 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Saturday, Dec 3 2011, 23:23)
QUOTE (Irviding @ Sunday, Dec 4 2011, 13:18)
Are you going to walk into her house and take that finger out of her pussy and tell her to think about how she's watching degrading material? What the f*ck man, really..

What are you even babbling about? It's quite a stretch from talking about how I don't like porn in a topic that asks for our different views on pornography to... walking into a woman's house and taking her finger out of her pussy, is it not? I think degradation is gross, and I think it's appeal speaks to a number of issues in our society, not limited to those relating to gender.

QUOTE
I mean your business as in, why is it your pregorative to stop people from enjoying such materials.

Who have I actively stopped from enjoying porn? Why are you so angry? You may be a tad too passionate about your fap material.

Not being rude, but you have a tendency to oversimplify things and make very complex sociological issues clear-cut and black and white. ie, I don't like porn for a whole host of reasons, so I must be in favour of BANNING IT and pointing cameras at every teenager's bed so they don't fap to their history teacher and objectify her. Or, people are discussing immigration and the concept of national identity, so it must be RACISM as you understand it as an American teenager.

A sophomore in college is a "teenager"? Alright then.

Anyway, you really baffle me. You ignored much of what I said in my post. You continue to advocate people to stop watching porn for the reason that it is degrading. In your view, it is degrading. You, a male feel that women are degraded. What about women who feel they aren't degraded? Are you saying they're wrong? You know better as a man? You ignored all of my post and instead attacked my credibility.

And again, it's not just me as an American who felt that thread was filled with racist undertone. You had another British person feeling as such also, one who is smarter than you, me and anyone else in this board.




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